040 - Family Dynamics

Welcome to the Pure Desire podcast where we partner with you to bring hope and freedom on your journey to purity. Hey there. I'm your host, Trevor Windsor. And we're so thankful you're taking time out of your day to hang out with us. I'm here with my co host as always, Nick Stumbo.

Check, check. One, two, three. One, two, three.

And here with us is the one and only Ashley Jameson. Ash. Welcome back.

Hi. I'm so glad to be here.

Well, okay, today we are on episode 40, the Big Four Zero. That's, that's a lot of time if.

You think about it like the H Nick is turning.

Oh, hey, that was not in the show notes.

We're gonna keep, we're, we're not cutting that part out, pal. I'm sorry, but it's just 40 for 40, no big deal. But just think about that for a second and let the listeners just kind of lean in on this. We've sat in a room and talked for half an hour to an hour, 40 times since what, July of 2017.

The listeners would probably find it really humorous if they knew how many different rooms we recorded this in.

Started at East Hill, we've done it in hotel rooms and recording there, several offices. Yeah, yeah, it's people's houses, it's a lot.

Wherever we can do it.

So anyways, back to what we're really doing today. So we today are talking about family. Now I know, I know you may already wanna run for the hills just by that trigger word, but we ask that you'd stick with us because we all know that family is both a blessing and at times can be really, really tough. And in that we all grow up in a culture with certain dynamics that we have in our family. And through our conversation today, we really wanna help identify those dy how they affect us, how they affect the addictions we struggle with, and really how to work through those and create healthier dynamics in our lives. So if family is a trigger word for you and you're just gonna listen to the first five minutes, just stick through. This is gonna be some good stuff.

Well, and I think it's a great conversation to have because I think for a lot of people this can feel like it's not the main point. I know when I was in counseling and was suggested that look at my family of origin and issues, maybe with a father wound and addressing even my own marriage relationship, it was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, come on, I mean, let's just talk about my problem. How do I fix it? How do I Change the behavior. And so that might be the case for some of our listeners that family dynamics seems like, well, that's not really my issue. Well, what I hope they'll get out of this podcast is that it's all connected, it's all interrelated. And you can't fix a behavior in your life if you don't address both the family you're in and the family you came from. And so, yeah, I encourage people, even if it is a trigger, stick it out and see what you can learn today, please. So, Ashley, you teach a session at our university event titled Family Dynamics for our listeners. Can you give us a definition? What are family dynamics? What are we talking about here?

Family dynamics would just be the impact that our behaviors and addiction have on the whole family. That, you know, we say that it's not just the individual's problem, but it's a whole family system issue. It goes, I wish you guys could see my hands. I'm like, intertwining them. It covers the family you came from. There's a lot of things that set us up for certain vulnerabilities and repetitive behaviors that our parents struggled with. And then it also affects how we parent our own children. And so it's not just fix the addict and everything will be better, but it involves looking back at some of your family of origin issues and also looking at the present, your family now, how everybody is affected by it, and possibly if you have a spouse, how some of their behaviors may contribute because of the trauma with the addiction and also the stuff they bring from their family of origin. So it's the whole system we're looking at here.

Well, and this isn't just talking about addiction. Like, this is talking about the relationships you had growing up. I mean, the family you come from. Because when I think of family dynamics, it's really just the interplaying of relationships and culture of your upbringing. So if your dad loves football, then there may be a dynamic about sports in your family and performance and how well you do on the football field. You know, like my family, we're all about movies. And so there's this critical, like, thinking and this critical spirit we have when it comes to art or when it comes to film or stuff like that. And that can play out in different areas of your life. And so it's not even talking specifically towards addiction. It's just really the culture and the atmosphere you were raised in.

Yeah, I think what we're trying to recognize is that no life exists in a void that everyone's been Impacted and influenced by someone. And you can't ever say really about anything in your life, well, this is just the way I am. And in fact, I think that's kind of maybe a cop out. We hear used at times of, well, this is who I am. I can't change it. And what we find is, if we look under the surface at why am I the way I am, why do I do the things I do, where do they come from, how are they a reaction either to the relationships I'm currently in or what I've learned from relationships in my past. We start to see patterns, and we see those patterns have been affected by other people, and the patterns in our life affect other people. So to think that we can change any behavior and not have it impact others is a little bit on the foolish side. So that's what we're trying to see is how do. How do I make change in relation to the people that are in my life and that that change will impact them also.

Yeah, absolutely. Well, so now we know. We know what family dynamics, what we're talking about. Why do you guys think it's so important to identify these dynamics that we have in our families?

Well, because it affects the way you see the world. And like you said, it's not just about addiction. You know, a big thing right now is like the personality test, the enneagram, and like, you know, your attachment style. And when I take any of those kinds of tests, if I do it through how I was five years ago, it is usually really unhealthy or a different result. Because five years ago is when I started working really hard on my own recovery and understanding my family and my background. And then if I do it now, it's a lot healthier for tests like the attachment style or different relational pieces of how I interact with other people. So if I'm raised in a home where there's no affection, nobody says I love you, nobody communicates well. There's just a lot of neglect there or an absence of family. Then I'm really not going to know how to interact with people in a healthy way as an adult. I'm not going to know how to pass that on to my children. So I think it's wise for everybody to understand that you see the world through your filter, that everybody has a blind spot, that everybody has something that is their reality, but may not translate well in relationships. And so to identify those areas for you and have trusted people that can help you see your blind spots or where something wasn't really normal Is really important. It's just going to make you a healthier you. In all relationships.

When I think of it as not only that relationship we have with our family of origin and how we grew up, but in our current relationships, it's recognizing that I am who I am in a system. And I'm not going to have a lot of success changing myself if I don't also address the system. And so I think about something common to people is your sleep schedule. And my sleep schedule is really determined by a lot of factors beyond myself. When we put our kids to bed, the kind of time that my wife and I want to have alone with our kids, after our kids are in bed, what time we go to bed, and we've had that commitment, we go to bed about the same time, so we're going to bed together. What time the kids go to school, what time I start work, all those things are impacted. If I were suddenly to say, well, I'm going to go to bed at 8pm and get up at 4am that would disrupt every single thing I just described. And I could do that, but it would need to be in connection with how does this impact the family and the people that God's put into my life. So even though we're talking about a negative example, like a pattern of sexually compulsive behavior or addiction, to think that I can just make decisions, live differently and be free is kind of foolish because we miss how impactful relationships are in the way we do life. And so if we're going to find real, lasting freedom, we're addressing not only the behavior in our life, but the whole system that has enabled that behavior to continue.

Well, and think of it in a positive light. Like, I grew up with a dad who. His dad was an alcoholic and his parents got divorced when he was a teenager. And so family time and spending quality time together was a really, really important dynamic because of how he grew up, because it was something he didn't have and he wanted us to have it. And so I grow up, I get married, I have a family. And I'm realizing that not just with my wife, but man, other friends, other relationships I have. Not every family feels that way. Not every family wants to have that quality time. Like, you know, and that's. And that's a dynamic that's something that has affected me and has really seeped into my life and how I live my life. And it doesn't have to be good or bad, but it just is something that has been passed on due to the culture Atmosphere, you know, what was important to my family growing up, and I see it that manifesting in my life now, too.

Well, even those healthy family dynamics can bleed into unhealth. You talk about family time, there can be others that have this pressure that if I miss a family gathering or a family dinner or something that's traditional family time, that that means I'm a bad person. That means I don't love my parents. That means I'm a rebel. And so we want to see, even in healthy ways, have we allowed something to go all the way to unhealthy. And that's really what we want to talk about more in the podcast. How do we figure out if a certain dynamic in our family is healthy or unhealthy? How do we know if it's something that's just a normal thing that all families do, or if it's an unhealthy dynamic that we should address?

Let me start with this one. So usually if I watch my wife and her response to something that seems normal to me and if she seems kind of off, it's like, oh, maybe that's not normal, and that doesn't mean it's necessarily unhealthy. But to look at it and to see how it affects someone else, that for me, has been a really eye opener. And you really don't get that. I didn't want to be careful in saying this. I wouldn't understand that until I got married. And once I got married and I started my own family and had a relationship that's every day with someone and living, doing life together, I really didn't see that until I got into that context. And so that, for me, is. Has been able to help me identify things that I picked up from my family that are unhealthy or maybe some things that my family currently does or used to do that were unhealthy. And it just practically gives me a new lens to look at those things.

Yeah. And I would say that what Trevor said is kind of the same in our household. If my. If I'm doing something or John's doing something and our kids feel like they have to walk on eggshells or like mom's in one of her moods. And I think we've all experienced being around somebody where it's like, oh, you know, tread lightly because they're not in a good mood or they're going to explode, I think that's a good indicator that there's some really unhealthy behaviors there going on when, when people don't Feel safe. And I know that word safe is like, it can make you think of like a really dramatic situation, but if your kids are feeling on edge or you're feeling on edge because your spouse or, or your parent or somebody is in one of their moods, then that's feeling unsafe. You're not feeling stable and like, you can be open and communicate and that if you something wrong, it's going to cause an uproar. And, and John and I really noticed that with his family, you know, like what Nick said, doing those traditional get togethers that every time we leave, we'd have a knot in our stomach, we'd feel upset, we would be replaying the whole conversation like, oh, we could have said this different and, and it just spilled and poisoned our, you know, our, our family, where we were now, you know, out of commission because we're upset about an event that happened last week. And so we started to really recognize that and try to be proactive about where are times that we can spend time with your family that don't cause those issues to spill over into our family and what doesn't. And so there's just certain environments, like a lot of times on neutral territory, if we have a dinner at a restaurant or something, that we tend to be healthier in those situations. And I know a lot of it is as John and I get healthier, we'll be able to be around other people who aren't as healthy. But we're also in process. And so we need to protect our home environment while we're in that process, you know, and, and same when I was, even before I married John, like when I'd be with my mom, if there's that shutdown, you know, that you either want to rear your ugly head and, and argue or you want to shut down and isolate and withdraw. There's something going on there that's unhealthy. And I think figuring those things out will kind of set you up to start making changes.

Yeah, I think that's a great point. When we look at what's unhealthy versus healthy is asking the question, what emotion does it make me feel? Does it make me feel built up, strengthened, encouraged, or do I feel diminished, belittled, shamed? And we want to be clear, you know, as we're talking about family dynamics throughout this episode, we are not here to blame our families. We're not here to throw them under the bus. We're not here to compare our family to someone else. We have the family that we have and the family that God gave us and much of that was out of our control. But we're looking to have some self awareness of what was created in me. And so when we're looking back at our family of origin, it's asking, where did I experience negative emotions because of how I was treated? And it may be that that was an intentional way that you were treated, that you are overtly being diminished or put down or criticized or made to feel unsafe, or it could be that you were incidentally made to feel that way. That's a lot of my story where I don't have stories of abuse or yelling in our home. I had great parents and I have great parents, but my parents are still sin. They're still human beings. And so there were ways growing up that I felt ignored or overlooked or not as important or not as valuable. And I can never remember my parents ever using words. And I don't think they ever would have used words to say that. But I learned through behaviors. And so for me to look at family of origin isn't to say, oh, my dad's a mean guy because he made me feel unimportant. No, it's to recognize, well, my dad was very busy. He had to work a lot at a small church because he was the only pastor. He had a lot. And just recognizing the impact that his normal life had on me. And then I think the other side. As we fast forward to what we feel today, one of the biggest questions is to ask, where do I still feel like the little kid when I'm with my family of origin? Where have we not in an appropriate way, matured as a family? So for listeners to ask, where do I still have to feel like I have to get mom and dad's blessing or permission even though I'm in my 30s? Or where do I feel like I'm still trying to win their approval? And we hear that in groups where guys whose dads have long since passed away realize they're still trying to prove to their dad they're a man. And we're looking for those situations where. Where did we just not grow up and learn how to have a healthy relationship as adults with our family?

Yeah, another really easy way. And Ashley will echo. This is just watch the show. This is us. If you watch that show, I'm just telling you right now, it's. And I'm not kidding when I say this, it's a show that does an unbelievable job at showing the reality of relationship and the family dynamic. And I swear, like, I mean, I've written Blogs on it. I could write a blog every week, honestly on every episode. But I just watch every week and walk away feeling like, man, I really need to evaluate is this okay? Is this healthy in my life? How does this play out in my marriage and my parenting and my relationship with my brothers and my mom and dad? Like it just, it gets you to think. So that's just a really a fun and a simple, easy kind of way just to really start conversations too.

Well, and when you start to pay attention to family dynamics, you see that this is, I mean in almost every movie there's a family dynamic, family of origin issue that the main character, whether it's a superhero or just the star of the show, something that's driving their current behavior. Somewhere in the movie they link back to how they were raised or something that happened as a kid.

Aha. Moment.

Yeah. And that's maybe the danger for us is if we don't have the obvious ones of abuse or neglect or you know, our parents divorce. When it's more subtle, we can think, well, I don't have any of these issues and we're more likely to overlook them. But that's where we want to have a better analysis of just what did I learn? What did it teach me about value and identity? And then get some tools to change those things.

Yeah, okay, so I feel like this is like almost a catchphrase for me, like let's get practical. I feel like I say that all the time on this, so. But let's get practical. So what do family dynamics have to do when better understanding identifying and addressing addictions.

I always think about how I was really disconnected with the fact that my family contributed to any of my unhealthy behaviors because I was a single mom and a supervisor in a doctor's office and always very level headed and good at anything I did. Not to toot my own hard, but that's what people told me. So I was like, it was hard for me to see that any I really had an issue and, and really to see that my past would contribute to that. And so when my sister would say things like she'd look at her baby book and be like, I probably wasn't even held as a baby. And I'm thinking, puke. Why do you even care? You don't even remember being a baby. You know? And it's like now that I've really like understood the connection of how a healthy upbringing can affect you or how lacking something can affect you, it all makes sense that because I was neglected in A way of. I mean, I had a great mom, worked hard, but she just wasn't around a lot. And so I had to kind of take control, and I had to be really loud and really assertive, and I had to control my own environment. I had to find my own lunch money. I had to do my own chores. I had to walk myself to school. So I had to do all these things that. That sometimes a mom would be there to do for you. And. And that. That flowed over into my adult life, where I like to take control. I can be really bossy. I can jump in. I don't hear people very well because I did everything on my own. And so it's just that natural FL overflow from my. My childhood, and it's. And it's really outdated behavior. I no longer need to have the reins on everything in my marriage. And there's times where I need to learn to step back and let John take the reins. And so without understanding that I can't address it, it took, you know, a few years of John saying, you interrupted me. You make all the decisions without me. I'll do something, and then you go behind me and fix it. I'm just used to being in total control. And so without being aware of that, I could see that it would have just destroyed our marriage.

Yeah. Well, what we want to see is that our family of origin is the framework through which we see the world. And we find out through brain science that literally our brains were shaped by the environments we grew up with that determined how we felt joy, pleasure, pain, what we believed about ourselves. And so we carry that framework into life and into adulthood. And the reason an addiction becomes an addiction is because it fits into that framework that it somehow enables us to feel joy or identity or belonging or purpose, even in an unhealthy way. And so it sticks. And if we don't know why that behavior sticks, whether we're talking about sexual addiction or substance abuse or gambling, it's fulfilling a role in that framework. And so we have to be able to look at the framework. And then in terms of our current families and relationships with spouses, we've brought that framework into marriage. So we've created, sometimes as a reaction against that framework, certain things in our marriage or sometimes a blind perpetuation of those things that we're treating our spouse or our families currently in similar ways.

And.

And the more we unmask and look at the framework, that's where we start to see the parts that are healthy, like, wow, thank the Lord for this. Great foundation of faith in my family and the other parts of. Wow. I can really see where I learned to perform for acceptance. And then we're able to address those things and keep what was valuable and start to change or discard what wasn't.

When, as I was thinking through it, I was thinking something very similar. And just the idea that my family of origin, my family dynamics, create a lane or an avenue for my addictions to go. To go down.

Yeah, that's good.

So it's the idea of the manifestations of my deepest desires or of my pain. Really the structure, the framework you're talking about creates these lanes or these avenues that are easy for me to go down based on the dynamics that I grew up in. So that's just kind of the way I was thinking about it, too. So, yeah, it's so funny because this is complicated and not trying to be like, you know, a pun here, but it is very dynamic. There's just a lot to it, and you can't. I don't think that you really can achieve any level of health without understanding this stuff, without understanding who you come from. One of my favorite things that Heather talks about in our university event, and this one's free of charge, is she talks about the idea of a student came to her and said, I can't wait to get out of my house. I can't wait to get away from my parents. And Heather always says, yeah, good luck with that, because you're not going to escape it. You grew up with them. You have them in your brain, and they're affecting your life far greater than we even realize.

Yeah.

And I think we want to. Just like you said, it's dynamic. It can be complex. That this isn't a simple thing of, oh, now I see the issues and I just change them and fix them, and I'm all better. It's not a process like that. Some of these are tensions to be lived with that we're going to recognize. I believe in my life, I will always have a propensity towards performance to find validation. And I can be aware of it. I can see where it came from. I can surrender it. But to think that I'll be totally changed and never need that is probably just denying the way I was raised and who I've become. And so it is this process of learning, growing, changing, and yet in some ways, accepting this is part of who I've become. But I don't. I don't have to live in it in a negative way. So that's what we Want to talk about Nick?

You're doing a great job.

Oh, thank you.

You are?

Yeah. I feel really good now.

Yeah. Good.

Now that we've identified why it is important to be aware of our current and past family dynamics, how do we go about addressing any of the negative or unhealthy family dynamics in our family? So we know it's not as simple as just fixing it and moving on, but how do we start to address the unhealth and move towards health?

I can see too, not only identifying those areas where you're vulnerable, and I think, obviously going through our workbooks, any of our group material gets to the core of a lot of family issues. I think that's a great starting place to be able to hear other people's upbringings and have kind of that outside perspective of how other people are raised can help you see what yours looked like. But like you guys said, it's not just about blaming our family. And I've noticed that a lot of just like how our weaknesses are often our strengths and they can turn either way. That a lot of the things that were really negative for me in my upbringing are actually the catalyst to what has made me successful as an adult in relationships or even in career. Because I had to be a big problem solver because there was nobody around to help me solve problems. And so that's something that I'm really good at as an adult, where if there's an issue, I usually can figure out how to find the answer and put a solution to it somehow. And then also having to be in control of my own environment growing up is what even got me involved in pure desire in the first place. Because I just tend to take charge and do something, and I'm not afraid to. And those were the exact things that kind of harmed me in my upbringing. And so I think that because God is in the business of redeeming things, that he can take those very things that were hard for us in our family and turn them into some of our biggest strengths. And so I think awareness is first. And then for me, like I have said several times, because I'm so unaware of things, and I'm just now starting to connect things together. I've always lived compartmentally, you know, compartmentalized things in my life to where my family of origin doesn't affect what I'm doing today. And this addiction doesn't affect my family. And this. Now that I'm starting to piece it all together, I really just have to use my body triggers as an. As an indicator for me that something's off. And so if I feel differently or angry or I start replaying negative messages, then I know that there's something there. And I try to do a little digging to figure out what it is. Where I felt that before, is there somewhere in my family of origin that I felt that same feeling? And a lot of times I can. I felt abandoned, I felt ignored, I felt invisible. And so kind of just pausing and then speaking the truth over that or making a different decision, even though you feel that way, that starts to change things instead of reacting the same way all the time to that feeling. So even with my mom us restoring our relationship to something that's really healthy right now, she's one of my best friends. It's taken hard work because I would feel triggered by something that happened or was said in our, you know, if we were together. And then I would choose to not just go home, to not hang up on her or to not yell at her, which those were my three favorites. And I would choose to go into it and just communicate with her that how I felt and how what she just said hurt my feelings. And often I got a completely different response. She wouldn't yell back, she would say, oh, I didn't even realize that. And it started changing the whole structure of our relationship. So that's kind of just doing it over and over. Like you said, Nick, it's probably going to be a lifetime process in a lot of instances.

Well, and what you're getting at, Ashley though too, is honest and gracious conversations. Like you can't. I think that we have a tendency to want to just avoid it because we know that bringing up stuff with family, I mean, let's be honest, when we're out in public with other people, like we're normal, we're fine. But the second we get back with family, like what you're talking about earlier, Nick, it's like we revert back to like 10 year old me, you know. And so I think that one of the things we do to try to combat, you know, that fear is really just, just shove it under the rug. Don't worry about it, don't address it. And I feel like being honest is really, really important. But in that if you are honest, you have to be gracious. You have to understand that the family dynamic you grew up in is because of the family dynamics your parents grew up in and your grandparents and your great grandparents. So there's, there's a lot to it. But we have to understand that if we want to really combat this unhealth, we have to handle things in a healthy way. We can't just go, you know, toe to toe with, you know, boxing gloves on and a ring and think it's gonna end well. You wanna try to be as soft and as gentle as you can and then, you know, after those conversations happen, and this is the hardest part probably is being patient and allowing time for people to develop because that's what you want as a person. You want, you know, thinking about my one year old son when he starts to see like vividly my junk. I would love for him to be able to be able to approach me and for me not to freak out at him. And so take that, twist it, apply it to your family and think, okay, maybe how I respond is important. And so the idea of honest and gracious conversations, but that has to lead to being patient and allowing time for people to process through what's going on.

It takes a real humility and I think an understanding of your own flaws. I want to be hyper aware of my sins and my flaws because if I'm not, then I, then I can't be honest in my parenting. So when my 14 year old son, which this is a true story, tells me that he feels ignored and that I, I love the little ones more because I'm spending more time with them and that we never, we never ever spend time with them. Which as a parent you want to say, are you kidding me? We just did this and we just did this and how can I never spend time with you? And you know, that's kind of what you want to do. But I remember feeling that way in my home growing up and I also know that even if I don't think that's all 100% accurate, it's how he's feeling and that's the, he's going to take what he feels in our home with him forever. He's not going to remember all of, you know, the intellectual components of our family, but he is going to always carry what he felt with him. That will never change and that's what will be long lasting. So when he says he feels ignored, he feels like I don't love him as much. I want to be able to be humble and say, you know what, I can see how you'd feel that way and I want to change that. So what can I do to show you that I love you? And when he says to do, you know, date nights with just you or just John, I want to do that. But you can't do that if you're always in this denial mode or you're not even aware of your own shortcomings.

Yeah, when I think of growing in these areas, two thoughts come to mind. You know, number one, I'd say space, reality. That you've got to be willing to say, these are areas I was hurt, these are wounds I picked up. And I think too many people been taught that to honor your father and mother means they never have any problems and you should never bring them up when that's really not what it is at all. And again, we're not looking to blame mom or dad, but to just see how did real life impact us and to have the reality of, you know, for someone to say my mom was controlling and to even have that conversation with her wouldn't mean I'm dishonoring my mother. It would mean I'm facing that reality. But I can do it in a respectful way and with love, in a way that I am honoring my mother. So I think that's part of it is just to face reality and accept that reality is that's part of our story. The other thing I think of in making changes in looking at your current family dynamics, it's to make sure you talk about the problem behind the problem. Because most of what we argue about is not the problem. So like for us, you know, it's. Money can be an issue and it's easy to focus on. Well, the problem is money. And if we had more money or managed it better, then the problem would go away. Which isn't true at all. Because the problem behind the problem for me is having grown up in a lower middle class income where money was tight and there were concerns. And like I said, my dad pastored a really small church and didn't make a great salary. So I created an area where money and security were tied together. And so when I get frustrated about money with my wife, underneath the problem is the problem I have with finding my security and money. And so if she's spending something that I don't think was in the budget, I can make her feel bad. But I need to realize it's coming out of my own family of origin issue with money. And when you can talk about the problems behind the problem, the way that can create connection with your spouse and family is really significant because then you quit just arguing about the money or the house or the kids or the in laws and you're able to look at why is this so emotional for me? Why is it so charged up? And I think you can really make real progress There.

That's really good.

Well, and what we're doing right now is we're kind of describing what the best case scenario is like if in a perfect world, we would always be met with understanding and with grace and with kindness. But we understand, especially working in the addictions industry that we are in right now, we understand that that's not always the case. So let me just throw this scenario out. If somebody starts to see some family, some marriage, some dynamics in their household or in their family of origin, and they realize it's unhealthy, they approach it well. They're honest, they're gracious, they're trying to be as understanding as possible, but that is not met well. That is met with resistance and diminishing and minimizing it. What then? What is it? What's. What's a person supposed to do at that point?

Well, I've had this. I mean, just my whole family, all the way down to my children, were just a bunch of addicts. So on every angle, I've experienced this. And with. With John and myself, we've had to call each other out plenty of times. And I think it takes a. It takes you getting to a place of health. So for me, it's taken a lot of work to get to a point where I don't want to try to badger and badger and follow John around until he agrees or sees my side or we fix it. And that was my strategy before. I just would debate and debate until he like, surrendered, you know, and now it's kind of like I can just state, you know, I can see that this is going on, you know, as your wife, outside of your head and outside of your blind spot and telling you this is harming the family, this behavior. And. And there it is. And so, you know, it's yours to do something with it. And we have to remember that they. We can't change anybody. I think it's important to voice your needs and. And voice what you see so that you don't end up going to an unhealthy place. Because what I would do before is just bottle it up or not say anything or avoid confrontation at all cost. And then I would end up lashing out on my kids or anger would start spew out somewhere else, or I'd be sick with some health issue because I was just so stressed out. And then as far as. And now, you know, like, luckily I do have somebody who kind of works together, but I know that there's a lot of people who don't where one person doesn't want to change, doesn't want to hear that. And we've had to experience that in our family. And the hard, honest truth is that that means you may have to put some boundaries up to protect yourself and to protect your family. And you could be the one that's called the mean one or the unhealthy one or the sinful one, because, you know, the Bible says to forgive and forgive and forgive and forgive. But often, as Christians will think that that means let them trample you, let them abuse you, let them trample you. And so having to put up boundaries when somebody is not honoring something that you're asking, that's very reasonable and keeps you and your family safe is really hard. And that's just the honest truth that we can't control how people react to what we ask for.

There's a sermon in there, I'm telling you, a way to preach it. That was good.

I think we know across a lot of disciplines that the best way to create change in anyone is to focus on change in me. And what Ashley just said is so true, that I'm not working on someone else's change, and I'm not working on my change for someone else. I'm working on health because I want to get healthy. And more often than not, when we really commit to that in a good way in our family, in our marriage, it has a positive effect on our spouse. Now, as soon as we start to badger them or to tell them they need to change, too, that's probably not going to work out so well. But that's a lot of the point of having a group. And why we talk about groups much at Pure Desire, that that's the focus of going to my group is I'm working on me because I know I got issues and I got things to change. And the more change that's happening in me, it encourages my wife. It inspires her. It opens up conversations. She sees things in herself. Not because I point them out and say, well, you know, look what you need to learn, but in the conversation, just listen to what I'm learning. Listen to what happened at group. Look what God did in this area. It just opens up change in others. And so I think if you're in a marriage relationship, especially where you feel like I'm ready to change and they're not, well, go for it. Now you need a group. You need a community around you that can be part of that process. But just trust that if you'll lean into your change and let God work in the heart of your spouse, it's going to impact them for good eventually. And then, as Ashley said, if. If you're in a situation, whether in a marriage or family of origin, where not only are they not changing, but they're not open to the change in your life and it's causing problems, you need to have healthy boundaries. So I just wanted to echo that. That. That's really kind of the next level of sometimes people permit the change we're going through and we just keep doing life best we can. But when other people become maybe against it or won't adjust, we have to make those boundaries for the health of our marriage or our family. And that's appropriate.

Yeah, yeah. I think it's also important really to not use this as an excuse to judge or to be mean or be high and mighty, but really to use it as an example of why it's important for me to work on my stuff. Like, I mean, if you do run into this situation where you see somebody who has responded negatively to you, you know, it's interesting living this life with other sinners, you get to see on a daily basis issues manifest consistently in communication, in relationship, in life. And so learn from that. I mean, see that and learn from that. Because if we really want to grow and we want to develop as followers of Christ, if you want to develop as healthy people, we need others to be able to speak into our life. And so if you are met with negativity, use that as a lesson moving forward for how people approach you. Because that could save your life, that could save relationships, that could save your marriage if you allow people to step in and to be honest with you and for you not to freak out at them.

Yeah. One of my favorite quotes is from an Andy Stanley sermon where he says, the more aware I am of the work God still has to do in me, the less concerned I am about the work God still has to do in you. And so just that, that self awareness piece and saying, God, whatever you want to do in me, that's where I'm going to put my focus. And so that translates over into the families that we have. I think when we look back at our own family of origin, and if we have a young family ourself, we start to ask, boy, how do I avoid perpetuating some of these same things on my kids? And so for many people out there, myself included, we're raising a young family. How can we work to create a healthy culture in our homes and perhaps avoid some of these unhealthy family dynamics?

Well, I think that, you know, good communication with your kids. So it's taken me a while to even be able to admit to my kids that I have issues. And it's like, obviously they see them all, especially my teenagers. They can list them all one through 100, you know, so. But, you know, for me to just model what it looks like to be a human being, and especially a human being who has some serious struggles that I'm working on, I think it's important for them to know that it's not a one and done prayer, deliverance, you know, thing where you go to Jesus and have this altar call and then you're freed forever. But I think it's important for them to see that I acknowledge I have an anger issue. I acknowledge I have control issues. I acknowledge that I talk over you and maybe I yell too much, but that I am constantly striving forward and that it takes time and so just to be constantly repentant and then also to help them see the connection I share in the family dynamics session of Pure Desire University that, you know, there was a time where I saw my. My one son completely overreact. And we know that when you have a huge overreaction or even underreaction a lot of times it's a limpic response. And so for me to see him overreact, my. My natural instinct is to get bigger and uglier than him, and especially because he's my size, you know, and my husband always reminds me that doesn't work, especially with a, you know, a teenage boy that has a whole bunch of testosterone.

Yep.

And so I had to stop and think, why is he overreacting like this? And. And then I had to explain to him that, you know, that there, there was a time where he probably doesn't remember, but his brain remembers where I neglected him. I was a single mom and, and I went to school and had three jobs, and I physically, emotionally had no capacity to barely care for myself, let alone for him. I was so unhealthy after my first divorce, and I just had to apologize to him and we were both crying, and I just said, I think that I may have helped you feel that you're. You're unheard and you're not. You're not cared about and that your needs aren't important. And I'm so sorry. And just to acknowledge those things, I think are really redemptive. My boys end up having more grace for me when I can just be honest about my struggles as I'm working through them.

Yeah, And I mean, it's. A vulnerability is really what you're talking about. You're talking about being open and honest with your kids about your own stuff. And I think that. Well, I'll just say this. I am in no way good at this at all. I mean, I feel like I'm like, training. Maybe the training wheels aren't even on yet. Like, I'm using a strider bike when it comes to this, because I can't even figure out how to do it. But the idea of preparing my kid, preparing my own heart as I parent, to not be the superhero in the story, to not be the one who looks like I've got it all figured out to, you know, to leave the hospital gown open a little bit so he can see how messy my life is, you know, and so that's. In no way have I arrived or figured that out. I'm really more in the thinking about it process. But just the idea of I want to. I want to create a culture where my son can come to me and be like, dad, I noticed that you do this, and it doesn't make me feel good. And I can say to him, wow, Bud, you're right. I'm so sorry. I didn't even realize it affected you that way. Or, you know, for him to come and say, dad, I'm really struggling with this, and I don't know what to do. And he's not going to come to me if I'm the superhero in the story. He's not going to think he can approach me if I am, if I always have an S on my chest and I don't show him any of my struggles. So it makes me more relatable, I think, to my son. And. And, you know, same thing with my wife. You know, I need to not solve all the problems because, number one, I can't. But number two, it allows us to be humans living together as we figure it all out.

That's so good.

I think the reality that I'm learning is that our kids are probably not going to come to us naturally and tell us how they're feeling. Because the truth is, they learn feelings, they learn emotions from us. And I think that's the biggest thing we're working on, is giving our kids permission to feel and to have emotions and to recognize that's part of the human experience. So my daughter, who's now a teenager, is probably not going to come and say, boy, you made me feel really angry because you did this. She's just going to get angry at me. And I'm going to have to, at an appropriate time, come back around and say, you know, when we had this conversation, I could tell you got angry pretty fast. Is there something in particular that triggered that? And to try to help my own kids process emotions are normal feeling anger is part of the human experience, but what I do with it is my responsibility. Or for my boys, you know, trying to help them experience or understand the emotion of fear or the emotion of shame. You know, when I'll say, when I said that to you, did I make you feel bad? And we'll talk about it a little bit, and they'll kind of say, well, yeah, I guess so. And. But what I can see happening is they're learning about emotions because I'm helping them process it. And I. I think that's what we do as parents. We're not perfect. We don't have it all together. But if we let our kids process those emotions and help them see what they were feeling, that will lead to the conversations down the road of, here's what you made me feel and why. And that's really part of being an adult, I think, is that we can go to someone and say, hey, when you said this, you made me feel this. And we have a mature conversation when we're six years old, we don't know how to do that. Well, where are we going to learn it? We're going to learn it from parents that let us process emotions with them. And so that's just something we're working on. And I hope that'll help someone else out there.

That's so good.

Sometimes I share my strategy with my kids because I continue to fail in these areas, they are getting fewer and farther between. But sometimes, like with my daughter, if I'll lash out and because she's so such a deep thinker, I'll say, you know, mommy shouldn't have exploded on you like that. Next time I get frustrated, I should just walk away and take some deep breaths and then talk to you in a calm voice. And so then it'll be like, you know, a few. A few days down the road, and I'll freak out again. And she'll be like, mom, when you get frustrated, just walk away and take some deep breaths. Remember you were gonna work on that. And so it's like, you know, just for them to.

I know that's a scary thing, telling your kids.

It is. It's a constant struggle. And for her to say, you're right, when I exploded like that, that is what I should have chose that's what I should have done instead of what I did do.

Mm, yeah, that's cool. It's a way of teaching your kids. It's very cool. Well, okay, guys, we, man, I'm just like, I'm trying to digest all that we've just talked about. So. Good. But we end every episode right, with an encouragement. So if you've got someone out there listening who, they could be all over the map, but they're really just trying to dive into this family of origin, this family dynamics topic, this issue, this, this real tension that we live in. What would be some final encouragements that you'd give to our listeners out there?

I would say that you do not have to be perfect. That because you're stressed or because you struggle with anger or maybe an addiction, it does not mean that you have failed as a parent. We say it in our Eight Pillars resource. I think it's on page like 71, that parents who have been able to process their trauma and they're able to give a coherent narrative of their past, they, they, they can parent well. And so it's not about having it all together, but it's about being able to, to bring Jesus into our struggles and our reality and to be able to show our kids what that looks like lived out. I know a lot of kids, you know, say my parent was an addict growing up and now they're not. They met Jesus and it's like this, okay, he was and now he's not, or he's not and now he was. But to really let them see, see the struggle so that if as they go through life and have their own struggles, they don't feel like a failure if they decide not to do something and then, and then fail or have a relapse. But they, they know that's, that's a natural process to keep trying and to keep putting your foot forward and, and that really the only one who is perfect is Jesus. There's no perfect human or family anywhere.

Yep.

Yeah. I think of what Peter Scazzero says in the Emotionally Healthy Spirituality. He says most people are self conscious. Very few people are self aware. And for us to think about self awareness as a gift that we give to our spouses and to our families when we're able to come to someone and say, here's why I acted the way I did, here's why I treated you the way I did. Here's, here's what was triggering me, will you forgive me? And you know, recognize we're not perfect so we can Ask for forgiveness. But we're able to process what's going on in our thinking and then we invite other people into that. It really opens some fantastic doors of communication and can lead to growth not only in you, but also in them. Because self awareness has a way of reproducing itself that when we're willing to be self aware, others get that same opportunity. And I think in the long run that's what creates a healthy family dynamic. Yeah, that's good.

When I say this encouragement, I just want to make it clear I'm saying it to myself as well. I need to hear this just as much as anybody. But I think the first thing is to keep your eyes open. Again, just echoing you guys talking about self awareness. Don't put your head down, keep your head up, keep your eyes and your head on a swivel, looking around, evaluating your life. And then really the other one. And this is probably my savior complex that I have. I tend to try to put the responsibility of fixing other people on myself. And so what ends up happening is I end up in a difficult relationship with that person they don't like. I mean, I don't like it when people try to come in and save me in that way too. And so it does that. And then it also sets me up for failure. I can't fix people, I can't fix their problems. And so to not put that responsibility on yourself, because it's not your job, your job is to work on you because that's what you can control. So really just keep your head up and focus on your own stuff because other people will see that and will benefit from it too.

So that's great advice.

Alright guys, this man, we made it through. Like we talked about family, the messiness, the craziness that is family. So hopefully you stuck it out with us, you listeners out there. We hope that this conversation was helpful. And really it helps you to start to think that nothing in your life happens in a vacuum, that there is a backdrop. Everything we think, do and struggle with has to do with the culture we were raised in. So everything we do will always be tied to that. And in order to be healthy and grow in our knowledge and our understanding, we have to be aware, we have to keep our heads up and we cannot lose sight of where we come from. So guys, this, I'm gonna be honest, this has been my favorite episode thus far. I'm so appreciative of you guys. So thanks for talking through this sensitive issue and being open and honest. I appreciate both of you guys.

Yeah, you're welcome. It's been fun.

Yeah. Thanks, Trevor. Great to be here.

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