041 - Mistakes Churches Make

Welcome to the Pure Desire podcast where we partner with you to bring hope and freedom on your journey to purity. Hey there. I'm your host, Trevor Windsor, and we're so thankful you're taking time out of your day to hang out with us. I'm here as always with my co host, Nick Stumbo.

Let's play ball.

And back in action with us today is Mr. Bob Vandermeer.

Hello.

Welcome, my friend.

Good to have you, Bob.

So today we want to spend time talking and addressing some common mistakes we see when it comes to how churches approach the general topic of sexual purity. We desire for the church to be best equipped with the tools to successfully combat this issue. And so we're just going to talk about ways that we've seen this go down that isn't very helpful, whether it's our experience or stories that we've heard about it. So.

And let's be clear up front that we're not here to rag on the church. We all love the church. We've all been pastors in the church. Bob still is a pastor in the other part of his life when he's not at Pure Desire. And so this podcast is not coming from a perspective of, look, what's wrong with the church. So much of this is coming out of our own experience of things we did wrong, things we didn't do for a while. So I hope for everyone listening, whether you're leading a church or part of a church or you don't even go to church, that that this will help you see a pathway towards every church in our country and in the world addressing sexual purity in an effective way.

Yeah.

So let's just start with this. Why are there so many churches that do not have a purity ministry?

Yeah, great question. Thank you for asking that question, Trevor.

You're welcome. No problem.

I'll speak for myself when I was a lead pastor, a senior pastor, and then we'll see if maybe some of this is applicable to other people that might be listening. To start with, I was a full blown sex addict and I was a senior pastor. So the discontinuity, if that's. Is that a word?

Yeah, it sounds right.

Yeah, it's a big one.

Yeah.

Between being a senior pastor that is also a sex addict and trying to start some type of ministry in our church, leading people and helping them move towards sexual health, there was just a very big disconnect. And so even the idea of that was, well, how do I do that? So I do believe and know that there are a handful and plenty of pastors, pastors out there that are dealing with some level of sexual brokenness in their own personal life. And the idea of starting something at their church just seems ridiculous to them, probably, or they're not even thinking about it, because to think about it would mean to acknowledge their own stuff in their own life. And good luck with that. I think another one is just to say, where do we start? And so even if they're not a pastor or a leader who is personally dealing with that, maybe the idea, the task seems so daunting that, well, where do we even begin with this? I mean, how do we even tackle something that seems so culturally pervasive? And, you know, do we start with the kids? Do we start with the parents? Do we start with our leadership? And so I feel like a lot of churches, well, let's start with the kids, because that's the problem that they're facing. Well, you start with the kids, but the parents aren't dealing with it or the leadership isn't dealing with it. Then again, good luck with that.

Yeah, it's really a huge dichotomy in the church right now where the research that's coming out, and no matter where you look, it's pretty consistent that in the church, over half the men are struggling with sexually compulsive behaviors, and 25 to 30% of the women have addiction or compulsive behaviors or a love addiction. And if you had any other issue or behavior in the church that was affecting that many people, you'd have an approach, you'd have a ministry, you'd have a plan. And yet Josh McDowell's research that's reported in the porn phenomenon shows that only 7% of churches, only 7%, have any plan to help people in the area of sexual purity. And so it is an area we're just. We're not addressing like we should be. I think for a lot of churches, surprisingly, even with the stats that are out there, they still feel like, well, not here. That's not in our church. And there's kind of some ignorance. And we've gone into churches where they say, well, you know, we're glad to have pure desire here, but we don't really think it's an issue in our church. And so we'll ask, well, hey, can we do a simple survey of your people? And we'll pass out the sast, the sex addiction screening test. And we find that everywhere we go, the numbers are consistent, and they're usually higher than we expect, that they're in that 60 to 70% range where we'd say people have sexual issues in their lives that need to be dealt with. So churches can still be stuck in kind of that denial of, well, we don't think it's really a problem. Really, though, it's because they haven't talked about the problem. And so it's been kept below the surface and people aren't talking about it. I think another challenge some churches face is it goes against their theology. And what I mean by that is some churches have a very restrictive discipline in terms of their theology that says if someone is struggling in this area, we kick them out, we get rid of them. We think it's a moral issue, a choice they're making, and they must not love Jesus or they must not really want to be a Christ follower. And so we. We're done with them. And they may have past examples where people have been removed from ministry or leadership because of all kinds of sexual issues, whether it's divorce or pornography, things they've been caught up in. And so if that's in your history, it's like, well, that's how we deal with it. We just get rid of the problems. Which only reinforces for people that have a problem, I better not talk about it, because I've seen what happens to people that are honest. So there's a culture working against them that really has to be addressed as much as a behavior. And then I think another challenge that churches face right now is they're just so busy. There are so many ministries, so many seminars, so many discipleship programs, and pastors are often overwhelmed and underpaid and feel like, I just don't have time to start one more ministry. And so it can be put kind of on the back burner, like, well, we know we should do something, but, you know, we preach good sermons, we teach people to pray. That should cover it. And as long as it stays a minor issue, and we think it's not a big deal, we're not going to give it the attention or the focus or the space it needs really, to be a thriving ministry in our church.

Well, and two, I think it's important to understand that leadership, if the general vibe you get from the leadership is holding their cards really close to their chest. They're not very vulnerable, they're not very open. There's not a lot of humility that comes from the front. People are afraid to share their mess. So if they don't know that the leadership of their church are just as sinful as they are and have their own struggles and issues. And I'm not saying pastors need to share all their mess from the pulpit, but they definitely need to let their people know that they're human and they struggle too. Then what it does is it creates a culture where I'm not. It's just not a safe place. I can't share my stuff. I can't say I need help because then I'm somehow like a subset or subcategory of the Christian walk because I'm struggling with this. And it seems like my leadership has everything figured out.

Yeah, well, this can be such a frustrating area because it feels like Jesus should be enough. And what I mean by that is if we read our Bible and we pray and we trust the Lord and we confess our sins, we should just be able to get over this. And I think a lot of churches, especially in the evangelical church in America, that's the approach. Read your Bible more, study, memorize more verses, pray, and you'll be okay. But what we've seen over and over is that approach doesn't work. So why doesn't trying harder and praying more? Why doesn't it work to set people free?

Yeah. Before I answer that, I want to just reference back quickly to the other programs that we have going on kind of idea at churches. Because we have spoken to a lot of churches where we give them the information that they need, even give them the tools they need to start groups. And they say, you know what, this is great, but we already have this other program that we're going to be doing this year. And what I think a lot of churches don't understand is that because this isn't just about sex addiction. This is about broken families, this is about broken intimacy. That there is no program more important for your church to start than this one right now. Because you can do a million other programs, but the integrity, the foundation of all of those is going to be eaten away if the families in your church are suffering and dying. Because the intimacy there is either non existent or failing. And so that's awesome. Put any of these programs that you have in mind on the back burner and do this one now because you can do anything else. But if at the end of, at the end of your marriage program it comes out that somebody is a sex addict, well. Or that they've been having affairs, well, then what was the purpose of having that marriage program? Like if you have a financial program, but at the end of that you find out that, you know, a handful of people in your, in your church have either been having affairs or been paying for sex or been whatever. Then what's the. What was the point of that? Yeah, like, let's deal with this brokenness ahead so that afterwards we can. We can deal with all the other areas that. That require trust and intimacy and health.

Yeah, it's like a person that's focused on exercise and working out and having good disciplines, but meanwhile, every morning they're ingesting poison and they're like, well, I'll get around to. I'll quit the poison later. You know, right now I've got all these other focuses. And you'd say, no, you need to immediately stop ingesting the poison so that all these other activities actually are effective in your life. And that's. I realized maybe for people listening, like, well, these guys are from Pure Desire. They're biased. They just want to talk about their ministry. And I hope it doesn't come off that way at all, because what you're saying, Bob, is just the truth that we've seen over and over that you can have all these great programs on marriage and finances and parenting your kids, but if you're caught up in sexual addiction or sexually compulsive behavior, it will undermine all of that in a heartbeat, and it won't matter what else you've been doing. So we don't say that, like, to scare a church, like, oh, do this or else. But just what we've seen, it's like, this is foundational to our relationships, and.

We have to face it and do this or else. That's right. So your question, Nick, of why doesn't try harder, pray harder, read your Bible more, work. What's wrong with this approach? Again, I'll use my own personal experience. When I had first started working at a church, I went and talked to my pastor, my boss, and I said, hey, this is a quote, unquote struggle that I have with. With pornography and masturbation. And his response, and I'm not trying to pick on him or anybody else who gives this response. I think it comes out of not knowing what to do, which is what this podcast is about. Sure. The response was, well, just stop doing it. And so my perspective was, okay, this is somebody that's an authority over me, somebody that I look to for guidance, for advice. And their advice to me is, well, you should just be able to stop. And so, okay, so when I left and I wasn't able to just stop on my own, in isolation, in secret, by myself, my feeling was, oh, there must be something wrong with me, AKA shame. And so when we're telling people, pray more, try harder, read your Bible more, anoint yourself with more oil. I mean, this one night in my room by myself, I dumped this whole bottle of anointing oil over myself. And I was, like, expecting this moment for freedom of purity to try to happen. Because that's kind of what was communicated to me, was just stop. And so we use the term the noose of addiction. And this noose is basically what a lot of times culture is putting around the necks, the spiritual neck of people that are struggling with this. And we say, just try harder. And the harder they try, the more the pull against the noose. And the noose tightens around them. And they're just. They're in isolation, dying because they have nobody else around them that knows how to help. They don't have the culture of grace or the competency to help them get.

Out of this well and off of it, too. If you look at it just theologically, you're addressing the hate hands before you're addressing the hearts. You're saying, try harder, pray more. You're saying, do these things by telling them to try to change their behavior rather than changing what's at the core of all of it. And so you need to make sure that we're approaching how do you renew your mind? How do you renew. How do you make sure that your heart is in a healthy place? Because from your heart comes the actions, comes what you do in your life. And so making sure that your approach or realizing that your approach of try harder, pray harder, read your Bible more, that those are just out. Those should be outward fruits of what's going on in your heart, not outward ways to affect your heart.

Well, and we want to be absolutely clear about our theology at Pure Desire that we believe Jesus is the hope of the world. We believe Jesus is the answer. We believe the word of God is inerrant, and it's fully from God. We believe in the power of the Holy Spirit. So by no means are we saying there's something wrong with Jesus. There's something wrong with the Bible. There's something wrong with the Holy Spirit. What we're missing, though, is that when someone is caught up in sexually compulsive behavior or addiction, there are lies and deceptions. They're believing. And these lies are limbic. And what we mean by that is they're in our inner brain. They're part of our survival brain, and they are held there in a place that doesn't know morality. Your limbic brain is not driven by right and wrong. It's driven by survival, and it is learned in order to survive. There's things I need to do, and there are things that bring reward and things that bring punishment. And so you can't preach at a part of your brain that's not moral. It has to be transformed. And as we transform our inner brain, then our prefrontal cortex, that thinking part of our brain, can be engaged, and we can hear the word of God, we can hear the truths of Scripture, we can hear about the love of Christ in a way that actually changes us, in a way that we're actually able to receive it. So the issue is not with Jesus. The issue is really with our brain's ability to receive his love and freedom in a way that actually works. And I think as we recognize that we're not saying Scripture is not enough, we're just trying to point out and help people see how your brain is working against you to not allow scripture into the places where you can actually experience the love that would change your life. So it's not about is Jesus enough or not? But it's about how do we get that love and his message into our hearts in a way that it overcomes the power of those lies. And those lies have been rooted there, often by our past trauma, by family of origin issues, by things we've picked up even when we were little kids, about where our value and identity comes from. And so when we say, you know, pray harder and read your Bible more, we're not addressing those root issues that are blocking the message of Christ's love from really changing us. So that's really something that we got to take seriously, is there's more going on in our brain than just knowing the truth and living it.

Yeah.

So why is it important then to have a ministry that addresses this as opposed to just, you know, preaching some really good sermons or having, like, a solid men's or women's event? I mean, can't we just have, like. Like one event at our church where maybe pure desire, like, you guys could come and, you know, like, teach us about this and pray for people, and then everybody can like, no longer deal with lust or addiction. Can we just have one event, get this done and over with?

I think what I comes to mind for me, Bob, when you ask that question is we confuse solutions with starting points that we present a lot of things in the church as solutions that are actually just starting points. And so if you preach a great sermon or, you know, you have a men's breakfast, you know, you do A porn and pancakes. And we address the topic.

I don't think I've ever heard of that.

Have you? Not porn and pancakes. That's like, I'm not picking on anyone, but I understand there's a ministry, that's what they call their Saturday morning thing. And it's like, let's get it all out on the table and let's talk about it. But then, just like you said, Bob, guys or gals go home on their own. They're not equipped to actually change anything. They haven't developed any community, they haven't walked into any honesty. They're just on their own trying harder not to do what they know they don't want to do. And then when they do, the shame they feel is double. Because now, like, man, I was trying harder and I went to that thing and I was honest and I faced it. I thought it'd be dealt with. Well, that's another example where they thought they had a solution when what they had was a starting point for me in my story. I thought confession was the solution. So I confessed to my junior high youth leader at senior high camp, to my dorm resident dorm guy at my college, to the dean of students, to my first senior pastor, to my wife, to my elder. Anytime there was the right opportunity to go to that place, I would confess it because my faith had taught me that was the solution. Only then I would go back into all my old patterns, not being honest. No one knew how to hold me accountable or come alongside and teach me tools that would change me. And so I would go back into my binge purge relationship with pornography and I would beat myself up like, what's wrong with me? And that's why preaching a good sermon or just having one good event on this isn't enough, because it's not a solution. Brain change is a two to five year process. It involves community and involves honesty. And so you have to develop a ministry where those kind of things can take place over time and in a safe, confidential environment where people can get at the root issues that are causing their behavior.

So my experience as a youth pastor was that I really needed to show kids practical ways to apply the truth of scripture. It was something where a lot of the kids that were in my youth group had, had been in the church for a long time. They knew the Bible verses I was talking about. They've heard these parables, they've heard Jesus stories, they've heard all this stuff. And it's. I think that one of the, one of the mistakes is that we Assume, you know, I'm not calling out any pastors or anything like that, but just as a fellow preacher, it was something that I learned that it's not about just sharing truth. It's sharing how to apply that truth to my life. That's gonna really bring about change. And so that's what really a purity ministry, and specifically pure desire groups are really gonna take that approach. They're gonna take scripture, they're gonna take the clinical approach, the understanding of the neurochemistry and how addiction works. They're gonna take all that information, and they' show you practical ways to apply that information. I think that that's what's so important, is it. It not only shows you a destination as far as finding freedom from sexual addiction, but also it gives you a roadmap in order to follow, to see these. These. These markers on the side of the road, like, okay, I've been doing this. This is becoming a habitual thing in my life, and I'm experiencing freedom because of it. And so it allows you to kind of gauge where you're headed and how to get there, and then also turn around and look and say, wow, look how far we've traveled. Like, look how far I've come. And so it really. It puts handles on it, if that makes sense. It puts handles on the truth of scripture and how God has designed our bodies and our brains to really experience freedom. So, okay, guys. When churches set out to help with this issue, they don't really intend to shame people. I mean, you know, Bob, you're talking about it earlier, is they don't intend to shame people. They don't intend to really just cast a shame cloud around their church when they're talking about this issue. But what are ways that we inadvertently or unknowingly do that?

Yeah, that's a great one. So, you know, the problem back to even with what my experience was of just don't do it anymore, is that when that type of solution is presented, then that's also the expectation of the spouse. And so the spouse's expectation is, well, this is what our pastor is saying. So then why don't you just stop? Well, if you're not stopping, it must be because you don't want to stop, or it must be because you haven't repented enough, or it must be because I'm not attractive enough or any of those things.

There's got to be a reason.

Yeah, you don't love Jesus enough.

Yeah. Which we've heard a lot of. And we hear that a lot from spouses that say, well, they just don't love Jesus. Are you even saved? Like, they begin to question the salvation not only of themselves, but the spouse questions the salvation of their addict spouse, whatever. And so, you know, that approach, it's not just detrimental to the recovery and the health of the addict, but also to the family of the spouse. And then if there's adult children that are aware of the situation, then what their expectations are as well. And so I think that's definitely one way that. That sets people up to not be successful in this. Another way that kind of sets, I guess, this shame idea is the presentation that sex is going to solve this. And so there are people from the pulpit, and again, they're just teaching what they've been taught or what they've read or what they've heard. But from the pulpit, to communicate, well, you guys just need to have sex more and that'll take care of it. Or things like a man needs a release every 36 hours or something like that. Well, I mean, you're setting up basically spouses to be. Blame one another, to blame one another and then. But then also like to basically stand in, in a sense, for masturbation. You're saying, well, okay, instead of masturbating, you just need to have sex more. Well, so now the sex addict, they're not. Maybe they're not masturbating as frequently, but they're just using their wife instead for that. That's clearly problematic. And I mean, that's not what the preacher's intent was. He wasn't saying, hey, this is what we're going to do. But for not having other tools or resources, they're just, again, this shame dynamic of failure, of being performance oriented, finding a solution in more sex as opposed to finding what set this person up for the vulnerability of addiction to begin with. I mean, there's all sorts of stuff in this. And so if you don't know the answer, then just don't give one yet. Find out what the answer is and make sure that you're coming from a place of competency as opposed to just saying, let's find a solution quick for this.

Yeah, I know. That was just what you're saying, Bob, was part of our story that some of the seasons of our marriage when our sex life was as good as it had ever been, I was having some of my greatest struggles with pornography.

And when you say as good as it ever been, you mean frequently frequency.

Yes. And actually the experience wasn't that great. It was just more about the Frequency, like having it often. And then when I'd struggle with pornography, that double shame of what is wrong with me. I've got a great wife who cares about me, we're having lots of sex, and still I'm seeking out. And what scares me is when I look back at those times, I didn't connect the dots to realize, oh, maybe this is more than just sex. Maybe there's something else going on. I would just feel the shame. And so I think we have to be real careful with what messages we send about how people get healed. I think another way that we inadvertently shame people when we preach or teach on this topic, we're. But not addressing it openly, what it's feeling like for everyone who is struggling, like, I must be the only one he's preaching at me. How does he know? And I go home and try to fix it because I've looked around the room and everyone else seems to have it together. And I don't realize how many other people are struggling. I think this is an area where Satan has inflicted everybody with the same disease and yet somehow convinces them that their version of the disease makes them uniquely bad and they better keep quiet about it. So when we talk about it a lot, but actually don't provide opportunities for people to be open and honest and find out they're not alone, it only increases the shame of, I must be the person that can't figure this out. And then I think one other thing I see in this area that's still very common in the church is we define addiction or struggle based on the severity of the behavior. And what I mean by that is we define addiction as someone who's out seeing prostitutes and has crossed that line. So then for any man or woman that's struggling with pornography or fantasy life, they're like, well, I don't have that. Why can't I kick this? Because I don't have an addiction. I just struggle once in a while. I should be able to kick this because it's not an addiction. So rather than looking at the hold a behavior has on someone's life, no matter how severe it is, we just look at the type of behavior and kind of draw that line. And so, yeah, like you say, Trevor, it keeps some people from even addressing it because, well, mine's not a big deal, quote, unquote. Or that shame of, well, I'm not seeing prostitutes. I should be able to just choose to quit doing this.

Yeah. And even I think that same idea, but reversed, is that a lot of times at church, we'll talk about pornography and masturbation, but we won't talk about other things like affairs and prostitution, buying sex. And so the person that's sitting then in the congregation will think, well, all right, they're talking about this, but they're not talking about this, so they must not understand, or I must be the only one that's so sick or they so perverted. Like, I'm the only ones doing this. Like, so they're okay with dealing with pornography and masturbation, but clearly they're not talking about this, so that must be like, so bad that they don't even want to address it. And so either side of that coin, if we're not talking about the whole thing holistically of that brokenness, you're talking about the patterns, the consequences, I mean, all of those common factors that come with addiction, then obviously we risk alienating some people. And that's part of the nature of addiction, is that we feel like I'm the only one. We feel like nobody else understands or nobody else is as screwed up as me, or at least I'm not as screwed up as that guy or whatever.

So a practical way that I see to really help with that, and this is something I've seen in a lot of churches. And a lot of the pastors and leaders that I respect are people who are very inclusive in the language that they use. And so they talk about us rather than you and you guys or them. It's really including themselves. Even if a pastor isn't struggling with sex addiction or with porn addiction or affairs or prostitution, it doesn't mean that he doesn't have or she doesn't have struggles that's going on in their life. And so being real and owning the fact that we all have stuff we want to numb out on, we all have things we need to avoid pain or we feel we need to avoid pain with. And so using inclusive language to make sure that it's community, it's not pastor. And then below it is congregation, it's congregation, and the pastor is a part of that community with them.

Yeah, yeah. And I think we started to touch on something a little bit ago, and it was about the spouse and their experience. And there can kind of be a little bit of a victim blaming thing in this, where. Where what's communicated is, okay, well, you need to take better care of your husband or take better care of your wife, and they won't be doing this. And just to say this as a, as a general statement, for any spouse of an addict, it is not your fault that your spouse is a sex addict. It's not because you're unattractive. It's not because you're not having enough sex. It's not because. It's not because, you know, you've had children and you've had medical complications. It is not your fault that your spouse is a sex addict. I just want to be very clear about that, that whatever you've been communicated in the past, whether it's by a pastor or a family member or a friend or your spouse, this is not your fault. There has been a family dynamic at play, but you are not the cause nor the thing that is precipitating or the perpetuating this behavior.

Okay. It's important to say this, too, for any listeners out there, that we want to be careful. We're not shaming people, even in what we're saying, that there are also women who are married that struggle with this. And so it's the same thing that if you're a man and your wife struggles with sex addiction, it's not because you're not taking care of her better. You know, well, it's not because you're not performing very well. It's not. It's not you. It is a brain problem that is affecting the heart and the hands. And so just to make sure that we're not casting this it's only men thing, we just see statistically that it is more of a man's problem than a woman's problem. But overall, we're seeing it's just a people problem.

Well, and just like you say, Bob, that you're not the cause of their problem, I'd also encourage spouses to remember you're not the solution. You can help, you know, by open communication, building the relationship, facing the pain together. You know, when we have couples that are in counseling together, they're so much more successful than someone going through a loan. So as a spouse, you can help. But I think our culture can put the flip on people of, well, if you would get back into better shape or have this surgery or all these things to make yourself better, then you could be part of the solution that's not fair to you or to your spouse. So you can help in terms of developing the relationship, but don't think you can fix them by losing weight or something like that that our culture says would help. Well, we know statistically, and you were alluding to this, Trevor, that this isn't just a men's issue, that women are deeply impacted by this as well. Many have Struggles of their own. Many are both battling their spouse's addiction and something of their own. So what are some ways that churches miss the mark when it comes to addressing porn or sex addiction with women?

I think one of the biggest ways that people connect with this problem is testimony. I mean, when you have people go up in front of the church and you have them share their testimony, whether they're in the midst of addiction or they've experienced freedom from it. And I think that if you are always setting it up where it's just a man who's struggling and a wife who is. Who is dealing with the difficulty of an addicted spouse, then you're setting it up that it's just a men's issue. And so if a woman is sitting in your congregation thinking, well, I struggle with this too, I must somehow be different, as if they're not feeling enough shame right now, what it does is it pushes them even further down. And so making sure that when you address it, whether it's congregation wide or in just conversations in your church, that you're using both genders when you're talking about this issue. And again, it's something as simple as just the language that you use. If you're always using men's examples or men's testimonies, then you're just shoving women down further and further into the shame.

Yeah. And I think also when we address this within churches and begin to think about how we're going to start some sort of ministry and dealing with it, first thing, please do not ever have a mixed group when dealing with this issue. So men and women at your church, it's not ideal for them to be in the same room. And one of the challenges with this, too, is that when we talk about this from the pulpit, I mean, it's easier for us to talk about men dealing with pornography and masturbation, but there seems to be more of a cultural stigma of us talking about women that are dealing with masturbation and pornography. And so even just talking about it, it kind of creates this discomfort. But the more we willing to acknowledge what the reality is, and the more we're willing to begin to address this, then our church will understand, okay, this is the reality, and this is something that we can talk about and something that we can honestly really deal with and not shame people. So what about students? What are some mistakes that we make in addressing this topic with students with our youth groups? I mean, at what age can we start doing this? And how does that even look?

Let me just say that I Sucked at this. When I was a youth pastor, like, I think I had. I had really a rough time with this. And really where I saw my struggle, looking back, is that I taught a lot of avoidance. Avoiding the Internet, avoiding social media, avoiding difficult situations that would lead you into temptation, lead you into struggle, you know, and then maybe even like, avoiding relationships, like, don't date, you know, don't be in relationships. Because that, for me, that was the playing ground of my addiction, was in relationship. And so for me, it was teaching avoidance. And so the struggle that I had was really that I didn't have enough information. I didn't know what was really going on with these students, both when it came to sex addiction, porn addiction, and also when it came to understanding the Internet and how that works and the fact that it's not going away. You know, I think that's what I love about the new resource digital Natives that Brian Roberts and Heather Colebro is. It finally is starting to delve into what is the Internet actually about? What does it do? How do we better understand it? And so, for me, I didn't equip myself with enough information to practically help students. And what I ended up teaching was avoidance, both Internet and relationship. And I think what I did, honestly, was cast a really wide shame net that caught a lot of students. So for me, it was a huge struggle.

Yeah. You know, one of the things that comes to mind for me is when you look at the history of cultures, so many of them had a major emphasis on a rite of passage for people from childhood to adulthood. And they trained and taught their young men and young women how to be adults. And we have largely forgotten that today in our culture, where the kind of things a lot of churches are starting to do for teenagers is after they've already been exposed to pornography, they've already gotten sexually active at school, they've already been learning about masturbation at home or in a locker room. And now we're on the reactive side of how can we help you get your brain retrained and do the right thing? Well, how could we be more proactive? How could we, even in our grade school years with our own kids or the kids in our church, think through what are we doing to proactively come into the lives of our boys and girls, young men and women, as parents or leaders, to say, this is what the world is, and this is what sex is, and this is what the temptations are, and here's what it looks like to be a man or a woman, and here's the stages you're going to go through. I don't mean just teaching sex ed kind of stuff, but I mean having those open conversations where kids come to parents and kids come to people in their church with questions, not learning all about it from MTV or music videos. And then we're doing the cleanup and the mop up work. So that's something that's on my heart and that I'd encourage anyone that works with kids or youth to think about is what are we doing to proactively create these rites of passage. So we're raising boys and girls in health from the get go that when these temptations or struggles or the perils of our world come at them, they've already got a framework. They already have a healthy framework where they go, oh, I know what that is and I know why I want to avoid it. Because avoidance isn't always a bad thing to teach. It's just what's the purpose of avoidance? And if a young man or young woman knows why they're avoiding pornography or why they're trying to avoid masturbation because they have a perspective of health, that could actually be a really good thing.

My understanding is that if you masturbate, you go blind. So that's their, that's what they're trying to avoid.

Right?

Blindness early in life, is that, yeah.

Where did that one come from?

Isn't that, that's not what happens. So I think, I think also though with it is that not just that we have a conversation with our kids about sex at whatever age in age appropriate terms, but that we ourselves as parents are and leaders are working to be healthy and vulnerable people. Because if we're not sharing from our own stories of failure, if we're not sharing our own testimonies, if we're not saying, hey, I'm a person that is not only safe, that shows grace, but I'm also somebody that knows about this competency, then our kids aren't going to want to come and talk to us about anything. They're going to feel like, well, if I go to talk to this person, one, they're not going to know, or two, I'm going to get in trouble. So I'm not going to be shown grace and they're not going to have anything like worthwhile to say, then I'm just not going to talk to them. And so that's how isolation is perpetuated in their lives. And that's how they continue to go down this road without really having parents, you know, adult figures in their life to help them process through this stuff.

Well. And if you think of what's at the core of this stuff too, where if it's. It's shame and it's trauma and it's difficulty in life, if I as a parent am able to enter into those times where I am a part of that trauma, or I'm a part of that difficulty and own my own mess and own my own junk, I'm not setting myself up to be the superhero or the good guy in the story. I'm owning that I also bring my sin and my struggles into this relationship, this dynamic with my kids, with my students. And so it is that vulnerability you're talking about, and what that does is that brings about more health in the community around you. It doesn't necessarily feel like that in the moment, but big picture, that's what it does. You're setting the tone and the stage for really honest, open, vulnerable conversations where they feel safe coming to you and that. Honestly, guys, that's my prayer for my son now, is that I need to really, and this is what I've been working on, is try to just be in a place where I'm humble enough to just say, you know what, buddy? Like, daddy messed up. I should have done better. And here's my struggle, here's my issue in that, so that he knows he can come to me, and I'm not Superman, that has no struggles, and he's the only one. So, okay, both you guys, let's kind of transition in this. So both of you guys have been senior pastors, and so, you know, it's important to have the covering of leadership when you want to have a ministry and a successful ministry in the church. If you don't have the support of leadership, that can be a really difficult thing to do. So the relationship between a group or a ministry leader when it comes to this purity ministry and the leadership of the church, that's so key. So what are some common mishaps or mistakes that we see in this type of relationship?

I think one of the big ones is that lead pastors don't get involved. They say, okay, yeah, I would love to have this ministry, but let's have the men's pastor go ahead and take this and run with it, or have the women's pastor go ahead and take this and run with it. And then they're not involved, which means that they're not educated on the topic. They don't understand sex addiction. They don't understand trauma that a spouse would go through. And so they're just kind of an observer and not a participant. And what that communicates inadvertently is what that is that this is not important to the senior pastor or that this isn't something for them to get involved with. And so then you have leadership at a church that are trying to do things, but really they're doing it on their own because their senior pastor doesn't know how to help them because they haven't been invested or involved. And so it just kind of sets them up for this isolated. I got to figure it out on my own. And it's kind of shameful because we're not talking about it from the pulpit or the senior pastor is not involved. And so it just kind of remains this secretive thing that we do on a Tuesday night instead of a Wednesday night because we have our service then, you know, on a Tuesday night back in one of the dark corners of the building or let's not even do it at the church because, you know, we want to maintain our anonymity or whatever else.

Yeah. One of the things we also do as leaders or pastors from up front, we say if you struggle in this area, then we've got a group for you. And no one wants to admit they struggle or know that they're going to group for people that struggle.

There's a sign up sheet in the back. Make sure to do that.

Yeah, don't do that. Instead of what you communicated, Trevor, to say, we all struggle, struggle. We all need to face our sexual brokenness. And so we've got groups that help with that. But making it a we and not you bad guys or bad girls that have problems, We've got a place for you because it does become still hidden and shameful versus this is part of our discipleship ministry as a church. In fact, it's core to our discipleship. And when pastors start to talk about it that way, it creates that culture of grace where people have freedom to say, this is part of my maturing in Christ. I'm going to face my sexual brokenness. And then as God brings healing there, I'm going to maybe face my financial brokenness and then I'm going to face my parenting broke. You know, we've got brokenness all over the place. And if we speak about our sexual issues is just one of those areas. And maybe the core one to start with. The way that shifts culture is huge. Another mistake that I see churches making is they, I would call it, they offload it to another ministry. And I, you know, I love celebrate recovery. I'm not speaking bad to Celebrate Recovery, but I've heard that from churches like, oh, we cover that here we have Celebrate Recovery. But if you really look into the material of Celebrate Recovery itself, Celebrate Recovery as a ministry will say, we don't help people get free. We're the place they come as a part of their journey. But if someone needs to get free, they need to go to a supplemental group. So for their material, they recommend a 12 step group. And for us, seven pillars for men or eight pillars for women. Those material are kind of our 12 step approach. Although it's not 12 step, but it's to say just showing up at a weekly meal and being open about your struggle is not going to heal you. Yeah, you've got to go through a deep intentional process. And so if you're a pastor listening and you've been thinking, oh, we've got Celebrate Recovery, we're good, right? Celebrate Recovery itself will say, no, you're not good if people are. And they would say it's about alcohol or drugs or sex. If they're battling their addiction, showing up on a Friday night for the meal isn't going to set them free. You need more. Another thing I see in churches is we're still pretty reactive on this. We wait for someone to be in a crisis in their marriage, to have been caught and being in a real dark place, and then we're like, oh, we'll start a group or we have a group for you. Rather than that proactive message I was talking about earlier to say, we all have sexual brokenness and we want to help everyone in this area. So here's our approach, here's options, here's the ministry. So it's not being reactive, but finding ways to be proactive, I think would be really helpful.

Yeah. And I think another one, and this might be more difficult to chew on as an idea, is that I think churches need less pastors and leaders that talk about things that they used to struggle with and more pastors and leaders that talk about things that they are currently struggling with. Some of the most memorable moments for me at churches, and it doesn't matter if it's a church of 80 people or a church of 10,000, and I've worked at both, is that when a pastor says, man, this is something that I'm currently going through, and it doesn't matter if they're talking about, you know, emotional breakdown that they're having or a difficult financial time or a sexual struggle or I mean, whatever it is, when they say, man, this is what I'M currently going through. It's a very important moment for them and for the people that are looking to them for leadership because they can realize, wow, this isn't a person that got saved and now they're fixed and everything's great. No, this is a real person, just like me, that also is currently dealing with life. And I think that's. If we don't do that as pastors and leaders, then we're missing the value of vulnerability and leading from our own weakness. In our weakness, we're made strong. Right. That's the idea that Jesus is the thing that brings perfection in our life and that we're participating in that as we make an effort to be honest and vulnerable and real. And if all we do as pastors and leaders is get up and talk about either what I used to struggle with, then we're telling people, okay, great, talk about it after you've got it taken care of.

Yeah.

Or if we get up and say, oh, yeah, no, I deal with stuff too. I speed like everybody else, then we're saying, okay, yeah, sure, you deal with things.

But, like, you've created tears of sinners in your church.

Yeah, well, it seems like in church we want people who've been processed. You know, they went somewhere, they got it figured out, they got their act together, they beat their addictions, and now we get to make them leaders and elders and worship pastors because they've been processed. But it kind of begs the question, where do we go when we're in process, when we're in the middle of our mess and our junk? And when you really start to ask that question, the obvious answer is, wait. The church is supposed to be that place, to be the place where we are all people in process. I know early in my ministry, I had a very loving mentor say to me, you know, Nick, in your messages, you're usually the hero. You're always telling stories about what you learned, what God did, and that's great. He said, you know, that that's really neat to hear, but the impression it can give is, look at me. And. And I've got it figured out now. You go figure it out. And that was really, really a helpful moment. And I just kind of determined at that moment I was never going to share a story where I was a hero. And so when I speak and preach now, in all of my messages, I'm usually revealing a flaw, a fault, something I learned the hard way. And I don't mean to just be like, I'm the doorstep now. And the kicking Post that I'm the bad example.

You're tall. You'd be a good kid.

Post.

Yeah, exactly. But just to try to have that stance as a leader, to say, here's something I'm learning through my difficulties, here's something I've had to walk through and not, woe is me or everything's so bad, but here's something. Here's a way that I learned the hard way. And I think that allows other people to go, oh, I can relate to that. I can let God work in my story as well.

Yeah, there's the phrase that we hear, you know, you shouldn't bleed all over the sheep. Like pastors use that. In other words, I shouldn't share what I'm dealing with with the congregation. I shouldn't bleed all over the sheep. And I think that would work except for the fact that that's pretty much what Jesus did, whether it was on the cross, literally bleeding for the sheep. So. Or whether it was him in the garden struggling, or whether it was him, you know, dealing with the brokenness of a friend that's, you know, that's died, or the people that are in front of him that don't recognize and he's crying or whatever. Jesus wasn't emotionless. Jesus wasn't devoid of being present with people with what he was currently struggling and dealing with. He sat with the disciples, he ate a meal with them, he shared with them. And so to say, well, we shouldn't bleed on the sheep. If that's the way that our church is structured, then we might need to reconsider the way our church is structured. If our authority is built on our ability to do things right, then we might be building our church on the wrong thing. And like I said, that might not be very nice to hear, but that's the reality.

Well, guys, this has been good. It's been great to just talk about our own experiences and where we've learned from mistakes. And I hope for everyone listening, it's given you ideas and a game plan of how to address purity out of humility, out of a place of brokenness and openness to what God wants to do, and really to avoid some of these mistakes that. That are still happening. Because we truly believe the church is the hope of the world. We believe the church is the place where this kind of healing can happen. And as it does, it's going to impact our world. And so we hope some of these principles will be things you can take and implement quickly and be a part of creating a culture of grace. In your own church. And so, guys, before we go, what are some final encouragements you would want to give to our listeners?

Just be intentional about how you talk, how you communicate, and how you lead in this area. Just be intentional. Don't think, you know, that you can just talk about it flippantly or only when it comes up, plan it out. Be intentional and really, really focus on how this is communicated at all levels in your church. I think that that will set you up for success.

Yeah. And don't be afraid. Don't be afraid to address it in your own life. Don't be afraid to address it in your congregation. It doesn't mean that you failed or that your church has failed. If anything, this is just a recognition of, hey, this is something that we need to do to continue to move towards being the community and the people that God's created us to be.

Yeah. And I think my encouragement would be to have a plan. So often in this area, we're driven by emotion. We're driven by the intensity. We got to do something, and so we preach on it. We're passionate. Here we go. And what do we do now? And we don't know.

Looking for, like, a Braveheart moment, but.

That'S what pure desire is here for. We come alongside the church to say, let's. Let's help you develop a plan. That's your plan, that works in your church, in your community. And then we kind of drift into the background because that's what we see being the key to all of this is local churches that can thrive with the ministry to men and women helping them find sexual wholeness in Christ. And so there are ways to create a plan, and preaching a great sermon can be part of that plan. There just has to be the what next? And then what from there? And how does this group start? And where do we get leaders? And that's what pure desire is here for. We've addressed that in a number of other podcasts and tools on our website. And. And so I would encourage you, if you're part of a leadership team in any capacities, to sit down with a group of your leaders and say, let's come up with a plan of how men and women in our church can walk in sexual integrity and freedom. Let's write it out, and then let's start walking through that plan one step at a time, believing God wants it, God will bless it, and it'll go far beyond that. Would be, from my own experience, what I'd say you will not believe the people. It will impact because there are folks right now in your church that you think, oh, they would never be struggling with this. But when you open the door and have a plan, they're going to walk into your office and say, you'll never believe this. I've been struggling. And you'll have to work as I did, to not let your jaw hit the floor. And you're thinking in your head, you, no way. But you realize this challenge is not a respecter of persons, that the most spiritual person you think you know can walk in and say, I've been struggling with this since I was 10 years old and I've never told a soul. It just becomes huge to the life of your church. And so have a plan. And then make sure that plan is open to anybody, including yourself and the leaders on your team, to say, we're gonna go at this together and trust that God's gonna do great things through it.

Yeah, fellas, this was great. We know that no one out there really wants to make these mistakes, especially when they're trying to reach people who struggle with this issue. It's. It's something we all desire to do well. We really do desire to help people find healing and to help people grow in life, and we just hope that this conversation helps when it comes to addressing this topic in all different types of contexts. So, Nick, Bob, thanks again for your time, guys.

Glad to be here.

And thank you for listening to the Pure Desire Podcast. If you like what you're hearing and want to keep up with the podcast, please subscribe. You can also rate and review our podcast and let us know how we're doing, please. For more information, check out our website, PureDesire.org. you can follow us on social mediauredesirepdmi. Once again, that's earedesirepdmi. We'll see you next time. Thanks for listening to the Pure Desire Podcast. For more information, check out our website, www.puredesire.org. check in each week for new content on the podcast, and we pray that it will help you find hope and freedom on your journey to purity.