042 - Betrayal & Beyond

Welcome to the Pure Desire podcast where we partner with you to bring hope and freedom on your journey to purity.

Hey there.

I'm your host, Trevor Windsor and we're so thankful you're taking time out of your day to hang out with us. I'm here as always with my co host, Nick Stumbo.

Yes, sir.

And today we have a first time guest with us, Rebecca Vandermeer. Rebecca is one of our clinicians and has been a huge part of Pure Desire reaching the Spanish speaking community. Rebecca, you do a lot of different things, but we're so happy to have you. Welcome to the PD podcast.

Thank you so much. It's awesome to be here, so thank you, guys.

Right on. So in today's episode, we'll be talking through our betrayal and beyond groups and group material. So we're going to be talking about what BNB is, who it's for, and we're also going to touch on why it's so important and what people will gain from going through a BNB group. And, and the reason why we have Rebecca here is because me and Nick have never been in a BNB group.

We have not.

And so we don't want to speak out of our lack of expertise. So, Rebecca, you're going to be helping us really fill in all of it for us. So as this is your first time on the podcast, you know, some people may hear your last name and go, hey, you're related to a guy that's been on the podcast before. But we want to know just about you. So could you introduce yourself, kind of talk about a little bit of your story and how you got plugged in with Pure Desire?

Absolutely. So I was born in Venezuela, South America, and pk, my parents became pastor's kid. For anybody out there, thank you.

We all are PKs, I think.

Are we all?

Yeah, all PKs.

All right. So I was a PK and then by the age of 11, my parents became missionaries and so we moved to Costa Rica. But so I have two siblings, I'm the youngest of them. And I bring it up because my parents were planning on only having two kids. And so I came as a surprise, one that they did not like. They were not excited about it. And so I was flat out rejected from the moment they found out that my mom was pregnant with me up until I was probably three, when God totally had a time with my dad and he had a change of heart and realized what had been happening. And so, you know, I think that set a little bit of the vulnerability for me in Terms of what we do and looking back and understanding, you know, just kind of how we are set up for success or to cope in an unhealthy way. And so, you know, I had this whole rejection part of me and just not feeling loved. As time went by, probably around the age of eight, one of my cousins molested me. And so I feel like, again, another vulnerability where I, in a sense, sex became this shameful, hidden thing. And curiosity obviously came up and not being able to talk about it. So, yeah, by the time I got. I became, you know, to be sexually active, I just found myself at a place where I could not say no. I didn't. I didn't know what saying no was. And so, you know, having the opportunity to be loved and to be appreciated for whatever I could give. And at that time, it was my body. It was an opportunity that, you know, I had learned to. To take. And so, yeah, just time went on. I didn't know that I myself had an addiction. Yeah, up until I got together with my now husband, Bob, who was, you know, a sex addict at the time. Not in recovery yet. And so when we started this whole process of recovery, and we came to Ted Roberts, which, you know, he's an amazing person, but, you know, we like Ted. Yes, we love him.

He's a good guy.

But anyways, it wasn't until we started that process that I realized that, oh, my gosh, this whole time, I have been a love addict as well. And, you know, I had to work through my own process of recovery myself. But then also at the same time, being the spouse of a recovering sex addict. And so that just took everything just to a whole new level for me, and that is being in Central America at the time. I happen to have the honor to translate for Dr. Ted. And so we toured all Central America, went probably five countries together, and that's kind of how we got plugged in and how he just became a part of my life. And then once my husband went through his own recovery, it was just a natural. It just. It was a godly thing where we ended up here. And now we're just. This is. This is our passion, and this is our calling, for sure.

Right on.

That's awesome. So how many different Central American countries or Latin American countries have you lived in?

I've lived in five.

Wow.

Yes, you've got quite the experience there.

And I'm sitting over here like, I've been to Canada, and that's the only time I've been out of the country, you know, so, yeah, Gotta love college baseball for that.

Oh, boy.

Yeah.

So you're so young.

Yeah. You're a well traveled journey. Journeyman. That's great.

Well, Rebecca, we appreciate hearing your story. It's always interesting to me when we have someone on the podcast because we ask virtually the same question. You know, tell us a little about yourself and your background and, and we really get the variety of like the two sentence answer to your synopsis of your story.

So really it was a great synopsis.

Yeah, yeah, of course.

Yeah. Well, I know it could be much, much longer and I'm sure some people will have the chance to get to know you or when they come and do counseling here, they get to hear more from you. But for today, we do want to focus in on the Betrayal and Beyond groups. And so let's, let's dive into that and start there. What is, let's just start with the basics. What is Betrayal and Beyond and who is it for?

Yeah. So Betrayal and Beyond is a resource that was developed here at Pure Desire and it's intended to be used by spouses of sex addicts in a small group setting. And so it's a workbook that takes you over almost a year or about a year long process of a small group setting and you meet weekly.

Yeah, well, because it seems like that this is really a place for women to come together as a community that share the same story and the same experience. And we see that that's really, that's part of a healing journey for so many people, is finding like minded or like experienced people who have gone through the same thing and are journeying and healing together.

Yeah, absolutely. And that's, that's one of the main goals or. Yeah, purposes, purposes of this resource is that you not only have material to go through and find healing and you know, work through your betrayal, but then also you are surrounded by a support, a support group of people that are going through very similar situations or circumstances. Granted, everybody's circumstance and reality is going to be different, but at the bottom line, you know, the fears and the emotional part of this process, it's going to be a common ground for everybody. And so it's, it's just a very healing resource that we have for the spouses of.

Now some people might be familiar with groups like for Alcoholics Anonymous, there's Al Anon, Families of Alcoholics, and many of those groups can be mixed gender, that there's just a variety of people that are trying to work with someone in their family they care about. Is Betrayal and Beyond ever a Mix of genders?

No, definitely not. Yeah, no, absolutely no. It's just one of those. Well, it's one of those things, right? I mean, there are groups, and I know that there are groups out there for spouses of sex addicts. Who's who, you know who the addict is a female. But we are Pure Desire just have this resource. The majority of our clients are male sex addicts. We do have female, but. And so as the number kept getting bigger, we realized that we needed to have a resource to help the spouses, the female spouses, find healing and work through their own pain and betrayal. So.

Yeah, well, when you think through the nature of the material we're working with, having it be just women together makes a lot of sense. But just thinking of those that may come from a different paradigm where, well, this is more about my role of supporting my spouse or working with a family member. The particulars of this group, we tend to go. The ladies go a little deeper. And so having that safety and security of this is people of my own gender, I think, is really an important factor.

Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely.

We see that when it comes to sexual addiction, it's really easy to just assume that the addict needs a group that that's. They're the one who needs to find healing. They're the one that needs to put in the work. And at Pure Desire, we know that that's not necessarily true. And so I guess the question that we want to understand better is why does a betrayed spouse need a group? Why do they need healing? Why is it important that they also experience that?

Yeah, that's a good point. And it's interesting because we do. We do get that a lot. They get that approach a lot. Even with the couples that come in for help, the spouse is usually, you know, just at a place where, understandably, there's a lot of anger and hurt. And it's just more the focus on, well, he's the one that's got the addiction, so why do I even have to do that? And we look at it at Pure Desire. We look at it in terms of this is a family systems issue or problem. And so we don't want to just deal with the sex addict and help them get better and healed and then be left with a spouse that is wounded and betrayed. Yeah, yeah. And having to figure out how to deal with all this stuff on her own. And so it's important that we have a place where we are working together with both individuals so that as a family unit, they can be healthy and, you know, move on to their own, to the generations to come.

Yeah, Yeah.

I know when we talk to people at events, I'll almost hear anger from some women of, why should I have to do all this work? And it's not fair, just like you said. But I know in our experience, for my wife and I, our healing journey, she felt some of that initially, but the freedom she found to go to a group where others were walking through similar stories, understood her pain, understood the emotions, and it was safe for her to talk about that was huge for her to find healing and forgiveness and just all the things that really, I don't know if she could have accomplished on her own. So, just like for men, sexual sin isolates and causes us to have shame. I think for wives, there's that same side of shame, of what's wrong with me? Why am I not enough for my husband? And a lot of those thought patterns really are common. And it's not until you're in a safe group and you're in community and sharing your story that you realize, oh, these things I thought were just me, these other women have shared. And that's what I would hear my wife talk about. One of the great things we had is our first group was half an hour away, and that was kind of a pain because of the time, but that half an hour driving home with some of our best conversations because she would just be able to share what she'd learned or heard. And that sense of isolation just disappears and enabled us to have some conversations. I don't think we could have had any other way because it would have been just my story. It would have been me sharing what I was learning. And when she had her side as well, that took us to a whole new level.

Well, and it's like a shared language. You're learning the same words and the same vocabulary to try to meet in the middle and understand each other, what each other's experiencing. And. And that creates this new lane of communication that couples haven't had in the past. Because either pain or the actual addiction itself are sitting in the middle. It kind of clears that out and creates this. I mean, that's just how I'm seeing it, is it creates this. This gap where couples can come together in that gap and learn how to. To come alongside, support each other.

Right. And the reality, too, is that, you know, you come in initially because of your husband's sex addiction, and so that's the motivator, you know, motivational or the what's driving the couple to get help. But then as Time goes by, you realize, And I'm speaking from my own experience, you know, when we started getting counsel from Dr. Ted, like, that was. It was Bob's addiction. But then as time went by, I realized, oh, my gosh, I have some stuff that I need to work on too. Or even. Just even. Yeah. Or. And even not just that as well. That's for sure. But then also understanding, being educated of what. What is sex addiction? Like, what. How did he get to where he's at and allowed me to have more grace for my spouse, and as I continue to move in that process, for him to then do the same for me. And so it just became, you know, a work that we were doing together. It wasn't just him or I on my own. It was just, we're in this together.

Yeah.

Like you said, Rebecca, it was the pain of your husband's issues that brought you guys into counseling and that change process. And for many people, it starts that way. There is a deep sense of betrayal and brokenness in the relationship. And. But we're also finding the other to be true. And I think, particularly in younger generations, an attitude among women can be, well, it's a guy thing. It's his problem. It's not about me. It's really not that big of a deal. And they may be struggling with this idea of betrayal because they don't feel betrayed. They don't think they're betrayed. So they may be feeling like, well, this group isn't for me. So what would you say about that word betrayal? And what would you say to that person who thinks, I don't feel betrayed. I don't need a group. What encouragement would you give to them?

Yeah, you know, I think that one of the biggest things with this is being honest, being willing to be honest, and taking a look at the effects that porn may be having in you in your life. You may not feel that your husband or your. Yeah, your husband's watching porn is affecting you. And it might not be per se, in a sense, but if we look at the consequences of the coping behavior that this is, is that there's always emotional numbness. And so you might not feel like porn is affecting you directly. And if that was the case, then at the very least, you have a spouse that has been emotionally absent or numb, and so you have felt the consequences to that. And so it's just taking a look at the effect of porn in your life and being honest with, okay, if I have, I. It might not bother me that he watches porn, but at the same Time you realize that your spouse hasn't been emotionally present at all and you've kind of been on your own emotionally, then it might be a good time to pause and think, all right, maybe there are. I am suffering some of the consequences, and it might be of a great benefit for me to join a group.

So do you think it's possible. And I want to make sure I'm asking this question sensitively because for some listeners, this might be a sensitive topic. Is it possible that it's a bit of a protective mechanism to just decide, well, I'm not hurt. This isn't betrayal. It's a way of keeping themselves emotionally distant from it?

Totally. I absolutely think that that's probably a part of what's playing a role into. Into them not getting into a group or finding help. And at the end of the day, it's just with addiction or seeking help, it comes down to the person making that decision on themselves. And so that's why I was kind of bringing it up in terms of it's going to be. You're going to have to look at. Within yourself to. And be honest of about what are the effects that I'm actually feeling. And for you to be able to make the decision and ask for help, because, yes, my opinion is you would be very benefited from a group. And at the same time, you are only going to. You're going to be the one that's going to make the decision and make that choice.

Yeah. I think we want to be careful that we're not communicating to women. Well, you have to go to a group because this is your fault or you're to blame. I mean, it's not that at all.

No, not at all.

We're saying this is part of your healing, and it is one of those areas where it feels like you don't know what you're missing until you experience it. And in a relationship where a wife is feeling like, I'm not betrayed, it's no big deal. I think it's when they walk through the healing process, their husband begins to change. They realize what it's been doing in their life, and it creates really a fresh start to their relationship. That that's where we hear wives saying, we didn't realize what we were missing. We didn't recognize how we'd gotten into these patterns of just avoiding and numbing out. And then when they begin to experience real connection, real intimacy, they become the biggest proponents of the group saying, every single wife needs this. Get into a group. And so it can, on the Front side, feel like it's a lot of work or time. I don't feel betrayed. But when they take that step, the fruit that comes out of it really is amazing.

Well, and what it seems like is that it's a misunderstanding of intimacy. I mean, so as my experiences as a youth pastor previously, you know, porn is viewed as not a big deal all around the world. Like, it really. It's this cultural thing where it's okay, everybody does it. And what I think I'm understanding and what I've seen is that I think that if there's a spouse out there who starts to think that porn, it's not a big deal. There may be a misunderstanding what intimacy is because the world tells us sex equals intimacy. And if it doesn't affect our sex life, we're still having good sex and frequent sex, and I feel fulfilled, then. Then there shouldn't be a problem. But really, you know, Nick, you're touching on that. You're missing out on what true intimacy is, which is being actually close to somebody, being known by somebody, and working through life together alongside that person, rather than, you know, is our sex life good or bad? And so I think that in a lot of ways, that that's how this perspective today, especially in younger people, this is how this perspective gets born. Is this idea. This idea or this misidentification of intimacy equaling your sex life?

Yeah, absolutely. And, yeah, just sex addiction is one of. One of those things that we also like to approach or approach as an intimacy disorder. And so you're right, Trevor. You know, just this. The society that we live in right now just has made it so. So part of what we all do. And it's just. Just very misleading in terms of what true intimacy is. And a lot of people even like to refer to sex as being intimate. And, you know, a lot of times we kind of pause on that because we. Intimacy really has to do with emotional connection. And then sex is a part of that. It's part of that intimate, you know, intimate relationship. And so I think you're totally touching on a good point there, for sure.

Yeah, it's possible to have sex without intimacy, and it's possible to have intimacy without.

Boom, mic drop.

Gotta have both.

Yes, that's a good quote. Write that down if you are listening. Write that down. Okay, so we have touched on really already why it's important, like why going into a group, if you're a betrayed spouse, betrayed wife, why it's important what you may get out of it. But let's kind of look at it from the church perspective. Why do you think it's so important that? Because I think we can all agree it's easy and common for a church to assume we need groups for addicts. We need groups for people who are struggling with this. But why is it also important that the group offers, or this. The church offers groups for the betrayed spouses as well?

Yeah, I think I'll go back to even what we were talking at the very beginning of our time together. It's that the approach that we have and that we liked, that we, you know, that we stand by, is that this is an issue, a family issue. This isn't just about getting the sex addicts help and getting them to be healthy individuals. Because if we do that, then we're just going to be left again with spouses that are wounded and betrayed and just not knowing how to even deal with that. And even what you mentioned, Nick, earlier, they might even end up still stuck in the place where they feel like it was their fault. And then we have, you know, this, the sex addict at a great place, and then she's at a really even worse place if she doesn't get the help that she needs and support and healing to navigate through the betrayal. So it's very important to have groups for women as well.

Well, one of the illustrations that we heard, you know, early on, and I've heard Diane Roberts use so many times, is that if a church doesn't offer a group for the spouses and for wives in particular, it's like someone calling for an ambulance. And the ambulance comes and it picks up the person that made the phone call and helps them, while the person in the accident that was hurt and wounded is laying there bleeding and off goes the ambulance. And the person on the road is like, what about me? And I think many wives feel that way. And we hear that when we go to. Again, when we go to events, we'll hear from the women who are in churches that they say they're not doing anything for us yet. Why not? And they're trying to process we need something. And so that would be my encouragement to any church leader or staff member, a pastor who's listening to, to say, there are women that need this safe place, they need this community. And you have a lot of ability to create that safe place simply by opening the door to these groups and giving some resourcing to leaders and saying, go for it. Help women. Because there are likely women that if you gave them that open door, they'd be willing to make it happen. Maybe that's a barrier, is that churches are led by often male staff who feel like, well, I don't know how to start this or lead this. Well, your role might be to open the door and to give those women space, share some testimonies and see what other women could benefit from the group.

Yeah. And for the church to continue educating itself and gaining competency on the subject and being able to see the reality, the real effects that it has sex addiction has on the family, on everybody else. It's not just the individual that's going through it. And just being able as a church to recognize this is a bigger issue. It is not just an individual. It's how is it affecting the family and the church, AKA society and every, you know, everywhere we go, you know.

And I, when I say this, I really want to make sure that it doesn't feel like I'm getting on a soapbox. But in some ways, what's been going on in our world has, has allowed us to. To take a step back, I think even in the church and look at how we emphasize who's important in the family. Like it is a complete family systems that needs to be healthy. It's not just a healthy and a great leader as a husband in the household, and then the family will automatically be healthy. It's also emphasizing both spouses, emphasizing the emotional health of your children, of, you know, the actual family system that you have. And I think that if we get to a point where we're only offering groups for addicts or men who need healing from any sort of addiction but don't offer it to women, then you're almost inadvertently teaching the truth that it's only about the leader getting healing or the leader being right or emotionally healthy. But that's not true. We see that both spouses, both people that are a part of a marriage and part of creating this family system and structure for their children who are going to be future spouses and future leaders in the church. And those people have to be healthy together in order to create this grace culture and this culture really of healing.

Absolutely.

So I'll step off my soapbox now.

It was good. That was good. So we may have answered the question already, but I'll still ask to see if there's more, Rebecca, that you would want to address. When you look at churches and the groups they have, why do you think many churches do struggle to start the women's side to have a ministry for wives who've been hurt by their husband's addiction?

Yeah, I Think it goes back to the same in terms of the church maybe not having that knowledge or education or competency to realize that sex addiction really goes. It affects more than just the addict itself. Just being able to see the effect that it's having on the family, on the spouse and even their kids, and how that is affecting the society around us. I think it would make a big, big difference. At the same time, though, I feel like maybe some churches, you know, dealing with the sex addict is a big step for a lot of people, a lot of churches. And then, you know, starting to think about, okay, well, then now it's the spouse. It may. May feel a little bit more daunting or just like, okay, it is messy because we're gonna have to deal with more brokenness. And brokenness is not. It is messy. And so maybe even the fear of not knowing how to navigate through, through or how to support the spouses of. And so comes down to maybe what I said, just maybe the lack of education or knowledge and.

Yeah, yeah. And I think another, like, a practical one is that maybe there are women who aren't willing to lead groups. I mean, maybe you don't have people who understand or see the need for these type of groups in your church. I mean, I know that when I was at my previous church, that was where we were at. We wanted to start BNB groups right away, but there was no one who. Who was ready to step in and help lead. And it didn't seem like at the time there were. There were hurting women, but women that didn't realize that they needed to get into groups or that this, you know, would be helpful for them. And so I think that in some ways that goes or that gets lost on a church where they're not communicating the need for it from up front. And I think that no one intentionally sets out to create that kind of culture, but I think that inadvertently that kind of culture is created inside the church.

So here's one of those questions Trevor says I throw in that I'm just thinking, let's look at the positive side of this. If a church was saying, we want to start, we want to do something for the women, what steps or recommendations would you give to say, here's some good ways to start groups or to move in that direction?

Yeah. So definitely, I mean, we have a lot of resources right now, which is a great, great thing to be able to offer just online, being able to offer a lot of our resources, our workbooks and whatnot. Pure Desire University as well. I mean, as Much as you can get yourself into resources, the better you will be prepared, and the more comfortable you will be prepared you will be to even offer this to your church. But even if you, as a. As a woman in your church and your church is not necessarily taking the steps towards doing this, you can do that yourself, personally. You can start educating yourself and researching on the topic and even start going through the Be Trying beyond workbook on your own if you have to. If. If you can join a group just for the sake of getting your hands into the material and an understanding. Even if you're not a spouse of a recovering sex addict, that would still be of a huge help to you to make you feel comfortable and get to a place where you're confident enough to come to your pastor and say, I'm prepared. I'm ready and willing to take the risk and get started.

Yeah, that's great.

Yeah. Like our story where we drove to groups half an hour away, I think we hear that quite a bit of a woman who's looking for support finds a church, you know, maybe it's a half hour away or in her city somewhere else, and goes there and finds the value of it, the healing, and then she's able to come and really be a catalyst in her church to say, could I lead a group here? And that's a huge step, faith. And that takes some courage. But we see that being really effective when there's someone standing up saying, we need it and I'll lead it. Churches tend to say, okay, we'll give you the space for it. And another step that we see being really effective is if that woman or someone from the church that has experienced a level of healing is willing to share their testimony. Because I think you're right. Something you said, Rebecca, that there may be women who want a group. They just. They feel kind of isolated or shameful, that it feels like admitting my marriage is bad or am I exposing my husband's sin? And so they just kind of wait. And if someone can stand up and say, you're not alone, there's a group, there's a place, many women are ready to respond. And so a testimony can be a great way to get the ball rolling as well.

Yeah, absolutely. And one of the cool things about the group that women don't. Don't know necessarily at the beginning is that, you know, these support groups are very confidential. And so, you know, we strive to make sure that these are. These groups are a safe place where women can come and share, you know, these very intimate types of areas of their lives, but for them to be able to get to a place, especially because, you know, if it's within a church, most people will think of the groups as a Bible study because that's kind of what they grew up with. And so for them to be able to step into a place where it's safe, where confidentiality is, you know, a priority, women start feeling safer in just sharing and just opening up and being vulnerable.

Cool. Okay, so this has been really great so far, and I'm going to press in a little bit, and this is going to be a really loaded question. Okay, so we've talked about what BNB is, who it's for, why churches could benefit from it. But what does it look like for a betrayed spouse to find healing? What does it take for a betrayed spouse to find that healing from betrayal? Bisexual addiction?

Yeah, that's a great question. I think the first thing that comes to mind is time. Find a wound and give it the time that it needs to heal. Once trust is shattered, it takes time to build it up. And so it's. It's not something that happens overnight. And so it's. It's going to require time of facing the pain and the discomfort of that pain. But at the same time, in the ideal world or the ideal scenario is that the couple is committed to this whole healing process together. So that as the spouse is focused on her own healing at the same, and she's experiencing healing through that, at the same time, she will experience healing through the changes that her husband, you know, the recovering sex addict, is making as he, too, heals. And so, as many of you probably have heard, or most of us have heard from Ted Roberts SA we were wounded in relationships, and we are healed in relationships. So this is kind of where this comes into place in terms of the spouse finding healing or experiencing healing as she works through, walks through this process herself to heal the betrayal. And at the same time, see that the sp. Her husband is making the changes that he needs to make for his own healing will in turn become. Then it will be a new dynamic and healing will take over because.

And this is one of the things I love about all of our resources, is that they're created to create a framework or a structure that helps you process your own story. So it's almost like the actual workbook, and the material itself is almost a facilitator of your healing, that you are just interacting with it and spending time. And this is what I love about just the group structure, is that as other people go through the same homework and come up with different responses and start to share pieces and portions of their story and their own healing. And you gain and you glean stuff from that. You gather more information, and it actually helps you better understand it. And so I think that that's what we see is true even in Betrayal and Beyond, is that it's that same thing. The work is there as a facilitator of your healing journey. And when you do it with a community, that just. It almost like reinforces the healing even more.

Yeah, absolutely. And I was totally. What you're saying brings up even what I was just saying in terms of that would be the ideal scenario is that the couple's working together. That's not always the case, though. And so with what you're saying, even if your husband is not seeking the help that he needs for his own healing and recovery, you can still experience healing and should and should absolutely encourage it to be able to just push through that, be a part of a group and heal what you need to heal so that either this current relationship or the future relationships will be affected and changed as a result of your own healing.

That's good. So, Rebecca, if someone is listening and they're thinking they'd like to start a group and get going with Betrayal and beyond, what material will they need? And how does that material work together?

Yeah, the Betrayal beyond kit basically comes with a workbook, a journal, and a book that is called Stories for Women. And so basically just get your hands on those resources. If you have gone through the process of counseling and healing, then you have a lot going for you already. You have most of what you need because you have gone through it. But then we would also encourage you to go walk through the whole material at least once before you start facilitating a group. So just. Yeah, get yourself on it. Get, get, get, get working. And, and six to. I mean, in six months, you could. You feel comfortable or confident enough to do it. However, we would probably recommend you go through the material once.

So what are some of the topics that are covered in bnb? Like what can someone expect to address in the group material?

Yeah, so I would probably say, I would summarize it in three. In three little parts. One of them is just understanding addiction. Just kind of what that is. What even the neurochemistry of addiction, how your husband got to where he's at, the whole brain thing. And it's cool because it's the whole, you know, Bible versus the neurochemistry of it. So it's just understanding what sin versus addiction and all that. So that's one of those parts. The other part would be then just as a couple, like where to go from now, what boundaries do I need to set in place? What is to be expected from my spouse who is in recovery. And then the other part, the last part which I love is just the self focus part. And so just basically taking a look at your own narrative and your own story, how that has affected you or impacted you and how you can change for the better in the future. So.

Yep, yeah, that's good.

So let's talk some of the logistics of a group because again, for some of our listeners this might be a kind of foreign concept. Thought they should be in a group. So let's talk some of the logistics. How often does the group meet? Are there any requirements for joining a group? Just talk through some of. Some of that, if you would.

Yeah, absolutely. The group will meet once a week. No more than 12 out two hours. I mean not 12, please, not 12.

Everyone gets to share for three hours.

No more than two hours. I personally stick to an hour and a half, an hour and 45 minutes with my groups. So it's weekly. It's a weekly commitment of an hour and a half to two hour stops. Basically the requirements are you just gotta be committed to the whole process. You come to group with your work done. Hopefully not the same day or the day off. Hopefully you've taken the time to go through the process, through that lesson before and just being willing to be vulnerable and honest. Just stick to being committed to the process. Really. If your spouse is in recovery, whether he's in recovery or not, the group is for you. Or if you're engaged to be married to recovering sex addict, the group is good for you. It will be of great benefit for you as well. Yeah, so it'll. It takes about a year long. It's about a year long process and weekly meetings of no more than two hours.

So what would a woman need to lead a group? Like let's say they. That okay, they've maybe been through group or they realize they're church need groups and there's no one there. Like what does a woman need in order to lead a bnb?

Okay, I have a hard time with the word lead versus facilitate. I'd like to use.

You would like me to ask. Let me ask the question again. Hey Rebecca, what does a woman need in order to facilitate a B and.

Group on a rant about the whole league?

So facilitate. What does a woman need in order to facilitate a B&B group.

Yes. So in order to facilitate a group, we recommend that, again, ideally would be great if you've gone through the counseling process or through the group at least once, one full year of having gone through it, if you've experienced healing on your own, then that's even better. And naturally, that's what we would want to see. Right. As you experience healing, then you organically just want to extend that and just reach out and help other women. And then for some women, they might be feeling a little ready or feeling more like, okay, I want to be involved in this after they've done with their first round, basically. Yeah. But they're still a little hesitant. So what we recommend is I will then maybe co facilitate a group first with somebody else so that you can gain more competency and be more confident so that for the third time around, you are just ready and confident to start facilitating the group. For those of you that may have not gone through the healing process or, you know, the recovery process, it's the same thing. Just go through the process at least once so that you get your hands in it, experience it, and then are able to walk alongside other women in the facility, which.

That was my experience with seven pillars. I mean, when I jumped in, I had not led a group at that point, but I just, I allowed the material to facilitate and really lead us as we moved. And I just was invested, you know, fully with the guys and found, okay, like, this can still work. I don't have to have years of experience or a master's degree. So if you're out there listening, you do not need that stuff in order to facilitate a group.

Absolutely. And when you facilitate, just go with it. And with the perspective of you are in this too, you are walking in this process with a bunch of women. And so you don't have to have it all together. You don't have to have all the answers. It is not group therapy that you're facilitating here. So it's just, you be real, you show up, be as committed to the work as everybody else, and God will do the rest. Yeah, yeah.

And if people go to our website, there is a leader's guide for betrayal and beyond. And if you want to take a black Sharpie and cross out the word leader, you know, we can write in facilitator. That's okay.

You'd make Rebecca so happy.

It just tries to give some practical tips on what to look for in the different lessons and how to lead people through. And we have people that routinely use that, particularly if they've not been through the material much themselves. That Leader's Guide, I think is an important tool to have.

Absolutely. And has some good pointers for each lesson. So, you know, it'll bring up points that you might want to focus on for that lesson or that are important to make sure that you go through for that lesson. So definitely the Leaders Guide will be a great resource for you to just gain more competency and feel more confident that you're ready.

Well, Rebecca, we have loved having you join us. It's been exciting to have you on your first podcast and we know there'll be many more, but we like to end all the podcasts with a similar question. So I wanted to leave you with this one. What is some final encouragement that you would want to give to listeners along the lines of the betrayal and beyond material, whether it's to the hurting spouse or to a church leader? What, what encouragement would you give today?

You know it. Joining a group, a support group full of strangers, sharing probably one of the most intimate things that you can talk about can be daunting. And so I get it. It's scary. And yet making that risk, taking that first step, that step towards that risk, with the goal of being healed and finding and being able to see life, experience life in a new way, will be worth it. For me personally, as a facilitator and as a clinician, facing my own fears of not being good enough and not knowing how to help other people has been the most rewarding risk that, you know, risk that I've ever taken. And so I give you the same encouragement, take the risk. Doing the hard thing is often the right thing to do the right thing. And so you'll experience healing like no other.

Let me just drop this in. For any churches like listening, I think that this is something that is far too often overlooked and undervalued. And I think that it's something that every church needs to have because you're teaching that healing happens holistically and that a family gets healthy together and creates a culture together, it's not just one spouse or one person in the family. It's everybody that's involved. And so just to make sure that, you know, when we're communicating that message of finding freedom or getting healing from this, that we're talking about it from both spouses perspectives. And offering groups is a great way to give a voice to both spouses.

Absolutely.

Yeah. And I think that'd be my final encouragement, is just to see the way this will improve your relationship with your spouse when we went into our healing journey. I thought it was fixing my behavior that would improve our marriage, but it was really the way that we emotionally connected, we learned to communicate and talk like we never had before, that it honestly took our marriage to a level it had never been at. And yes, it also changed my behavior, but that wasn't what ultimately led to a better relationship. And so for those who are listening, just realize this could be a huge, huge thing for improving the relationship you have with your spouse. And so if that could motivate you to jump into a group, I hope they'll consider it.

Yeah. Rebecca, you did it. You finished your first podcast.

Congrats.

I'll make sure to never, ever use the word lead again when you are here. Facilitator. Facilitator. Facilitator. So you did awesome. This was so insightful and helpful. I mean, because we haven't experienced it, it's great to hear you know firsthand what it is and really how it fits into the Pure Desire ministry. So we just really appreciate your time. Thanks for hanging out with us.

Thank you guys. That was awesome being here with you guys. Appreciate it. Thank you all for listening.

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