043 - Group Guidelines

Welcome to the Pure Desire podcast, where we partner with you to bring hope and freedom on your journey to purity. Hey there. I'm your host, Trevor Windsor, and we're so thankful you're taking time out of your day to hang out with us. I'm here, as always with my co host, Nick Stumbo.

What's up?

I just want to apologize to all the listeners. I feel like it's important.

You know, I made a fatal mistake deciding that every greeting was going to be different for, like, 10 podcasts. That was great. At 40, whatever. It's turning into a less brilliant idea, every single podcast.

So no one forced you to do it.

I know, but now I feel like I have to.

It's.

People even at events say, I look forward to hear what your different greeting will be.

It's pressure now.

It's. It's overwhelming. It is.

Well, let's move forward then. Today we have Rich Moore and Ashley Jameson. Welcome back, guys.

Hi.

Glad to be here.

So today we're gonna be talking through group guidelines. And as you can tell from the intro, this one may be a little bit of a relaxed episode, but group guidelines are really important. And so each of us is gonna talk through really, this. This guideline, these guidelines that we've set up for groups and that they're put in place to help protect and nurture healthy and effective groups. So we're gonna be talking through the guidelines themselves and also talk through why they're important to follow in the group structure.

So.

So let's just start with this first question, and that is, why do we have group guidelines? What's the purpose behind it?

Well, the purpose of group guidelines really didn't come out of a bunch of genius people getting together just to make a bunch of rules for everybody to follow, but they really came out of what we saw worked best for the group. So with hundreds of group experiences between all of us on staff here and talking to leaders all over the globe and hearing the same issues, it really just came out of a lot of experience seeing what works for group and what doesn't. And then we just put together the guidelines to be able to support the leader and help them have a better start. You know, like, I know a lot of people at the job say, paying. Somebody's already paid the dumb tax, so you don't really have to. We're giving them a really quick snippet of what they can do to keep their groups on track and have the most effect out of it instead of having to learn the hard way.

Yeah, it Seems like it's almost like they're not rules necessarily, but it's a structure. It's a place where if we all agree upon these things and put them into practice, it creates trust, and it creates this safe place that I can come to each week knowing that we're all agreed upon these things.

Yeah. Over 20 years, like Ashley said, kind of the dumb tax. I remember the first group. It was pretty relaxed, and guys kind of came in and did their own thing.

And I wish we had footage of that.

That'd be great.

Yeah. Interesting groups back then, but, you know, they're. They're there for a purpose. It creates a safe, safe environment. And when they're not followed. We see what happens in groups when the. When the guidelines aren't followed.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, I think it is a temptation because when you think about helping people, especially in a really sensitive topic like pornography and sexual addiction, it can feel right to say, let's just get guys together. Let's just get women together. Let's talk. Let's let them process their story. And that feel of keeping it informal and just relational sounds good until you actually start to do it, and then you realize one person's dominating conversation. Other people aren't doing any work. People aren't being real. Like it's really not accomplishing what will actually help people. So it's. It sounds good, but the outcome isn't good. And so the group guidelines are there really to create what is a healthy group experience for everyone involved. And we see such consistency happening all across the country right now and even around the world. As groups use the same guidelines, we can predict with a high level of certainty the kind of experience someone will have if groups follow the guidelines. So, again, I love what Ashley said. It's not that this group of people got together, made up rules just to be restrictive, but looking at what works and why. And so that's what we're here to discuss today. So, Rich, can you walk us through what are the group guidelines that we have put in place and just describe a little bit about each one of those guidelines.

All right, so there's a few of them here. First one is confidentiality, Short and sweet. What is said in group and is presented in trust and confidence that should be given utmost consideration. So what said in group stays in group.

Yep.

Self focus. So self focus, listen, respectfully, Limit sharing. Respect others. And then the next one. Limit sharing. We do that so everyone has an opportunity to share. Answering what we wrote down for the answers of the questions. This will help Limit rabbit trails. Attendance. You know, attendance is tough. You know, everybody life happens. But we want those men and women to be able to commit to the time and day of the group. Commitment to accountability. You know, making your minimum three calls a week, showing up, doing your homework. You know, if relapse has occurred, instead of your three, three phone calls a week, it could be, you know, a phone call every day for a period of time.

Sure.

Listen respectfully. Respect others when they are sharing no side conversations. Take ownership and respond and be responsible. If anything a group makes you feel uncomfortable, you want to speak with your leaders of the group. Next one is, we want to stay on subject again, answer only what you wrote unless asked a question, and avoid rabbit trails. The next one. Homework. Homework is key. You want to allow 20, 30 minutes a day for homework and complete your assignments and reading before the next group. And you will not be able to participate if you don't have everything done or have limited participation. The next two are pretty big. The covenant to contend. Gonna make a commitment of accountability. Stating your commitment to the process of your healing. It's a public commitment that is witnessed by the entire group. And the Memo of understanding, which is for all groups, men's, women's groups.

Yeah.

It's important to understand the purpose and the parameters of pure desire groups and the moral and ethical obligations of group leaders outlined in the memo of understanding. And that's a document that must be signed.

Yeah. And we'll have both of those on the show notes. Because those are two really big, like, you're saying really big things that are important to have for protection for the church, but then also, like, you signed this, like, this is a way to hold people accountable with these things as well.

Well, these group guidelines are found at the start of all of our group material and workbooks. And we hope when groups are launching, they actually do take time to go through them. Because I think that's what we find over and over is when everyone is clear on these up front, when everyone's ready to go. The difference that makes for the group, it's just it becomes the norm for how the group functions versus if halfway through, you realize some negative behaviors and are trying to change it and come back to them, it's much more challenging. And so, you know, Rich walked through that list, but that list can be found in all the workbooks. And just make sure you take time to go through them and that everyone understands the importance of them.

Well, and we wanted to identify them too, because it's important that we give each of these, a voice. I mean, these aren't things that we don't want to push one of these and then not push some of them. All of them are important. And so that's why, really, I mean, as mundane as that maybe sounds, Rich going through a list, like, it's still important to know these and identify these. So with that, guys, let's move forward and ask this question. Why is it so important to follow these guidelines? And in my mind, I'm thinking back to Pirates of the Caribbean. It's not really a code or law. It's just more guidelines. So with this, why are they so important to follow?

Well, the, the reason why they're important to follow is because we, you know, this is what Rich and I do all week. We talk to group leaders who are having issues. And, and I can almost guarantee that every call I get from a leader who's having, like, a major issue with how their group is running or not getting the effect they want. If I walk through the group guidelines and I ask the questions, you know, are. Is the group being kept confidential? Is everybody just speaking for themselves? Are they avoiding advice giving? Are they all showing up and doing their homework and it' attending regularly? Usually I can find the one that they're lacking on, and when they can put that into place, they'll see a turnaround into their group. And I've even seen that myself when I first started leading groups like what Rich said, it was so lax. We didn't know what we were doing. We weren't using all the tools. I was more chasing after group members for them to show up and do their work. And, oh, it's okay if you, you know, didn't answer that question or couldn't do your homework, and really the groups would just crumble. People weren't taking it seriously. And then the ones who were, weren't. Weren't opening up all the way because the other group members didn't seem to take it as serious as they were. And so when I, When I implemented all the group guidelines into our group and said, you have to do your work, you have to show up, I stopped losing group members all together after that. Each group I ran after that. When women would start, they knew what to expect. Just like you were talking about Trevor. If you lay it out in the beginning, they know what to sign up for. It's like I always explain to the women, it's the difference of, do you want to take a stroll around the park and kind of meander through the trees and look at pine Cones and flowers or, you know, are you signing up for a race that has a clear start and a finish? And these are the things that would disqualify you for that race. And so it's really just, this is what it is. These are the guidelines. If you want to participate in this and get the full benefit out of it, this is what it looks like. If this is not what you're prepared to do and agree to. There are other types of groups like celebrate recovery or the genesis process, where it might be shorter or it might fit your needs better, or counseling if you just, you know, want to do something one on one. But it's really important that you show up, do all the work, and you're fully committed on the front end before you even go into this group?

Yeah, I think it's important that we set a high bar because we're talking about changing behaviors that are going to have a lifelong impact. And when I think of the group guidelines, I think there are two reasons that really make them all important. So the one is the side of group health that we want to do what contributes to a healthy group. But also it's my own personal change. And so take for example, one of the guidelines like attendance that we set this high bar to say if you're physically able, you need to be at group, and that needs to be your priority even more than a kid's t ball game or a friend's birthday party. So there are those things that are totally unavoidable. If we're being sent out of town for work or there's a huge crisis in the family, an illness kind of thing, jury duty. Yeah, there are those unavoidable things. But outside of that, we all have a tendency to make excuses to make something too important. And so we want to look at our group attendance on the two sides of if I'm there regularly and the group knows they can count on me and that I'm invested, that's going to make for a healthy group. But that's also what's going to lead to my personal change. Because if I'm in this routine week in and week out, and I'm absolutely committed to it, then I'm much more likely to experience change than if I'm kind of dropping in, dropping out, missed three weeks because of kids soccer. I'm gonna look around and be like, man, I'm not changing. It's like, what's cause I'm not staying in the group and attending regularly. So in all the group guidelines, you could go through and see how they both contribute to group health. But they're also what helped me change.

I think, to add on to what Nick said, it's kind of like regular attendance, but keeping the group regular, you know, with confidentiality and everybody showing up. We've had churches that it's coming from a really good place, but they want to keep their groups open and large and just kind of let any woman or man drop in whenever because they want to be that church that says when a man or woman calls in crisis, we don't want to ever turn them away. And I really encourage churches to find a different method, whether it's taking them through a smaller series like the Conqueror or giving them some of our books like Pure Desire, stories for men or women to read. And they can connect with them that way until a group is open for them. Because when you allow people to just drop into the group, it also disrupts the regular, the regular attendance of the group and who's going to be there. And I've heard from women that I've personally worked with that it creates this anxiety of when you show up to group, it's not the same consistent people you've gotten used to sharing with that you don't know who's going to be there, who's going to be gone. You kind of start looking forward to hearing the follow up on the women in your group or the men in your group, what they're doing. And then you come to group and it's all different. Either somebody's gone or there's a new person. And so keeping that group as regular and consistent as you can often is the only place in that either addict's life or the betrayed spouse's life that is a consistent place where they feel safe. And it's the same and it's predictable. And so just keeping that environment that way is, is going to benefit in a lot of ways other than just renewing the mind through homework.

Yeah. And you know, another thing I feel like I've pressed this a couple times on the podcast before, is the importance of your answers bringing light or helping someone else on their journey to healing as well, that if, if you put in the work and you're consistent and you follow these guidelines, then consistency is going to be really important and it's going to be something that you're, you know, you're exhibiting as you go through this group and your consistency is going to help other people on their journey. Your answers, you're doing the homework, you're following these guidelines and really putting in the work is going to help other people, really, sometimes even more than it's gonna help you, you know, and so you get to a point where you realize your work is doing that for other group members. And then you also start to bank on the fact that when your group members come and they've done their work, you're also gonna benefit from that. And you lose out on that if these guidelines aren't followed.

Yeah. So, Rich, what would you say are some of the common guidelines that groups tend to slack on? What are the ones that you've seen people have a hard time holding to? All of them?

Well, you just. You just stole my answer, you know, out outside of the, I guess the big three, homework, attendance and phone calls, you know, the accountability piece, you know what I see? And I imagine, you know, Ashley and just talking with her and in the groups, especially for the guys, if most guys, when they get their seven pillars kit and they open it up, they're going to open up the pillar one, lesson one. So they even know there's a memo of understanding, a covenant to contend. They don't even know what group guidelines are. And then they call us and say, well, my group's a mess. What do we do? And why are you following this doing. And they don't even know about it. So to really encourage new groups to, hey, start on page one one, go through the introduction, and then, you know, I'll walk them through the memo of understanding. And why that's an important piece, because not only do they sign that, they get a copy of it. The group leader gets a copy, and then the church gets a copy. You know, and part of that is for some legal stuff, you know, they want to make sure, you know that reducing the risk policy that churches have, and that's a whole other episode. But I see a lot of trouble when groups don't even go through the introduction. And so they're missing probably the most important piece of the process.

Yeah. And that doesn't mean there's going to be homework to do on the introduction, but everyone needs to be aware of it, and that's part of launching groups. Well, when I look through these guidelines, what I've seen happen a lot is as groups become more comfortable with each other and get to know one another, staying on subject and limiting sharing become a challenge because you just know each other. People start sharing stories, and what can happen is the material and the homework starts to become a little more secondary and gets less time, which is really unfortunate because honestly, like with seven pillars in My opinion, the most significant material starts to come out in pillars 4, 5, and 6. And so if you're really attentive to the homework and following the outline early on, but then guys get comfortable and you just start sharing stories and those pillars get less focus, you're really missing some of the material that really, I think, transforms minds and renews our hearts. So I think that'd be an encouragement I would put out. There is just no matter how long the group spend together, making sure to say, hey, could you stick to what you wrote? Can you stick to the topic? Because we really want to honor the work that people are putting in. And also, just my two cents here would be the best place to do that encouragement is when you're starting the sharing of homework, because it's when a guy gets 10 minutes into a story and you're thinking, oh, my goodness, I should have interrupted him, or I should have asked, what did you write? So to try and avoid that, I work to be proactive as a leader. And when I'm looking at a homework lesson and we're about to share, I'll say, okay, guys, let's walk through these answers together. And hey, just remember, it's really important to stick to what you wrote, because I know for all three of these answers here, you guys could probably tell your life story, and we all have that, but we want to honor the work that we've done and make sure everybody has time to share. So as hard as it is, please stick to what you wrote so that everybody gets time. And when I do that, it's amazing how we go around people's answers, stay efficient, and it's a really productive time versus when I forget it. And like I said, then some guy's 10 minutes into a story and you're like, oh, man, we're not going to get very far here. It's hard to jump in. I mean, it's the right thing to do is still to jump in and say, hey, could you stick to what you wrote? But that's harder to do in my mind. So when you can be proactive, I think that helps.

Well, and as a facilitator, too, that you get to the point where you have created this, this kind of culture of your group where if you feel like you're starting to share maybe more, it kind of, you know, guys can be like, hold on a second. You don't. You don't let us share for more than 10 minutes. Hold on a second. Like, let's look over the group guidelines again. Is this Fitting into how the group should go.

Yeah. And I think another piece of what Nick was saying, the importance of writing down answers and sticking to what you wrote. I found in my earlier groups that when, when the group guidelines were really slacking, women would, and I would be guilty of this sometimes myself, but they would just jot down this one word answer to kind of jog their memory. To then go into this full story and group and to be able to really have them think about their answers while they're writing during the week is so good for their brain to be able to really think about that stuff and not just try to go off the top of their head. In group two of the group guidelines that I've seen that are really broken in, in my experience with women's groups would be kind of jumping in to give advice, but not necessarily always in the form of advice, but in the way of just that people feel uncomfortable when others are hurting. I was just reading in a book this morning that said when someone is suffering or grieving, we feel pressure to say the right words. And I think that's so true that when that God speaks to us through the language of pain, and when somebody is for the first time sharing something really hard or painful and they're having trouble getting it out and it may be the first time they've ever shared it, it's so tempting to want to rush in and comfort them. And it's so important that we don't, that we allow them to really feel that pain and, and express everything they need to express without somebody coming in to cut them off or comfort them. Um, that's a huge one. I see. And, and it takes practice. Um, and I even will say it in the group that it feels uncomfortable to just let somebody be hurting. But we've all got to just kind of get used to it in this group.

So let's kind of press into that a little bit. We, we understand that, you know, the health, like the health of the group is going to be dependent on if you're able to follow these guidelines. But what is a group supposed to do if they find that these guidelines have been broken? Then what?

Well, that's, that's the hard part. And, and like what Nick said, it's. It's so much nicer if you can be proactive about. Really comes down to the person who's facilitating the group or the person who feels uncomfortable because a guideline was broken. They first need to be able to be the one to speak up. And, and so I've had Women who have been hurt by something somebody else has done in group or, or felt uncomfortable because they felt like everything they answered was going to go through the filter of what this person was going to respond and, or how they were going to respond or what they were going to say. And so then they'd shut down and not even want to share their answers. And they first have to make me aware of that because often as leaders, sometimes I will even not even realize a group guidelines being broken. And if I don't, I need somebody else to point it out if they're the ones that are bothered by it. And then at that point you can go over the group guidelines again. Like Nick said, sometimes it's uncomfortable. You have to jump in, in the middle when you should have kind of done it in the beginning. And then there's times where I've had to schedule an outside meeting outside of group with the person that's broken the guidelines and talk to them. And it's extremely uncomfortable. But you can't sacrifice the whole group for one person. And so it really does take honest conversations. And I just try to remind myself in my anxiety before I'm about to talk to them that this, this could be a learning point for that person too. And just like we've all had to be confronted with maybe some inappropriate behaviors or breaking a rule, it, it helps everybody grow and learn and keeps the environment safe.

Yeah. What have you seen in this area, Rich? I know you guys have led tons and tons of groups. What do you do when guidelines are being broken?

Yeah, it's, you know, what we do is, you know, when, when it's, when they start to get broken, it's, it kind of breeds, you know, so the one guy does it and then everybody else starts doing it. So it's just kind of a natural progression. And I'll usually just take a group night and just go over basically almost like recommit and pull the memo of understanding, pull the covenant to contend, go over the group guidelines. And this usually will happen kind of like you said earlier in that, you know, pillar three, pillar four, after they've gotten comfortable a little bit and they just kind of slack a little bit and just say, hey, this is why we're coming to group. So I might take a little bit extra time during the homework time just to kind of say, hey, this is why we're showing up. This is the importance. We need to make sure we're following these guidelines. And if that keeps going, then I'll do what Ashley said. Well, I'll just. And then I'll. I'll approach the group as a whole. Not to, like, single anybody out, but. But if those guys keep doing it, then I'll pull them out one by one and have a conversation. And, you know, if it keeps going, if they keep not showing up with homework done or they keep missing, then that conversation can be tough. Like, you know, may not be a good time for them to be in a group, but we try to catch that before it gets there.

Sometimes with that, though, the guy or the gal who's not doing their homework or is breaking this guideline doesn't realize the effect it has on the group. Maybe they're, I mean, in their own kind of journey, they're just figuring it out in themselves. But then once you're able to pull them aside, you're able to say, look like you are a part of this group. You can take ownership. You're a part of the health of this group. This group isn't just helping you. You're helping us together. And so I feel like when you do pull someone aside, you may find that I've had that experience with a couple people in groups where you say, okay, this is the guideline that I see you now doing. Well, can we fix this? Can we work on this? And it's like the light bulb goes on, and it's like, finally, you see, oh, I had no idea. I didn't realize I was hurting the group. And so you almost create more buy in when you're able to do that, if you find yourself in that situation.

When I think as often as we can in those situations, whether we're talking to someone one on one or doing, like you said, Rich, a group night where we revisit the documents, the guidelines, it's to take ownership of that ourselves because we don't want to come across as the leader who has it perfect and all together. We had a podcast with Rebecca Vandermeer not long ago where she talked about how we're more facilitators. And as facilitators, we want to approach those conversations to say, I need these reminders for myself because I forget them. I've been in group for a while. I tend to slide away from them. So I'm not just doing this to pick on anyone. I have these same things that I need to be reminded of. So let's all of us together work on this. And the more we can identify whether it's with the whole group or even that individual, because we might be talking to someone about their homework and saying, you know, some weeks I don't feel like homework or I've had a busy week. And so I get that it's not always easy when we can identify that we're in that same battle with them that makes it more of an us thing. And how can we approach this problem versus you're the issue. And how can you deal with it? Because that, that tends to not be responded to. Well.

Yeah, like Rich said, how it kind of can just spread and breed when a guideline is broken. I always see that when somebody like will text in or call like, hey, I'm not going to make it to group. And then all of a sudden two or three more text in. Yeah, me neither. Or I'm not going to go either. And it is, it's almost like this ripple effect when something starts going off.

So we know that being open and honest, being vulnerable with our spouse in particular, is a big part of healing and this process. But when it comes to confidentiality, even then we have to be very careful about what we communicate with our spouse. So why is that? Why is confidentiality about group important even when it comes to what we share with our spouse?

Yeah, this one for me, this, this hits home for me. So it was about 15 years ago, I showed up to church and one of the guys, his wife approached me in church and said, hey, I hear this is going on. I'm like, really? So it kind of caught me off guard and it happened in front of people and I'm like, oh, interesting. And so it was just kind of like, you know, so I went back and talked to him and, and I know him really well and still friends with him today. And I mean it wasn't a huge deal because I've been in groups for six, seven years.

You didn't like beat him up or anything?

No, he's about as the same size I am, so he's not a big guy. So to be a battle royal, there you go. You know, but, but the thing with the confidentiality is it's such a key piece because I think it's so easy when you go home, especially if you are married, to just talk about stuff that happened in group and not intentionally, but it's so easy that it'll just come out. Yeah. So we just need to make sure that we are sharing, you know, if our wives are asking us about group that we're just sharing directly, stuff that's, that's ours.

Right.

And nothing else.

Cause this, gosh, this is such a shame filled thing. Like we know that this is such, this is like. To even get a guy or a gal to like flat out say this is what I'm dealing with or this is the situation I'm in is a huge step for that person. And so if confidentiality is broken, then that person could take 10 steps back and it may take them a long, long time to get back to that point. So I think I'm just echoing what you're saying, Rich. Like, it, it helps kind of breed more courage and more. It kind of, in my mind it's like creates this trajectory of more healing for somebody if confidentiality is maintained. Because if it's not, then you may set people back for a while.

Yeah, I was, I was almost to the point where I didn't want to go back to group just because of that.

We're glad that you did go back to group, by the way. Very glad.

I've broken confidentiality several times. And I, I mean in my early years, not like recently, but I would.

Always yesterday, just an FYI to her current groups. Not recently.

Talked to you last week on the phone? I'm sorry, no, but I have not. I'm just saying when I first started, it's easy to. It is easy when you, especially in your own church, to slip. Because for me, I was in a brand new church and so I would say, you know, well, the other day when I was with so and so to my husband and it's like, when did you become friends with them? And so even, you know, with confidentiality being even who's in your group and even who's showing up, that's a huge thing. I, I would often slip in that area of saying, oh, you know, I was talking to sue the other day in my group and it's, and it's. And, or I would say something and John would like wonder when I saw that person. And so I would end up going back to that person and just letting them know, hey, I accidentally slipped that you were in my group. And I always feel so much better when I go tell the person right away what I slipped about and what I said. And it's especially important when I ran a group and it was all leadership from the church that can spread really easily and they may not want people to know they're in a group. And so I just think it's right to go to that person right away if you do break confidentiality and let them know what you said.

So, Ashley, earlier you were talking about the idea of advice giving and we see that under the self focus so the idea of respecting other people, this seems really counterintuitive, especially in the church, when, you know, we have answers from Scripture and we have wisdom that we've gained. And so why is it that we shouldn't give advice in groups?

Well, for one, because it's super annoying. But for two, I think the big part is that it feels good and it does something chemically to you. When you discover an answer on your own, when you're working hard and straining or you're wrestling with God, it's not that the people in the group don't have a great answer. That's why you don't see Jesus just going and telling everybody the answer. A lot of times he would ask them a question, and not because he doesn't know, but because it does something when you can, when you can really think about your own answer and articulate that and voice it and hear it come out of your mouth and, and admit it or, or whatever the process is. But it's really important to let people self discover their own answers. These are great workbooks. They have, you know, really great tools in them that our counselors have put together and, and people with years of experience. And you don't just go into a counseling office either and have the counselor start rattling off answers. You know, it's. It's very much a digging and wrestling and trying to connect your own dots. And then you get this release, this light bulb going off when you discover the answer. It feels good and it makes you want to keep digging and searching. And then the other part of that one example I have of a young woman who was extremely abused by her pastor and her mother growing up. And then another woman in group wanted to encourage her with scripture, but it happened to be the same scripture that was used while she was being abused. And so it's just really important to let people find their own answers. And then if they want encouragement, they might ask you. But that's not really this setting.

I was so bad at this one. Like, this is a really convicting question because that was me and I felt like I was helping the group and I wasn't. I was making things worse.

Yeah, it's hard. Cause I think there's a part of all of us that were a fixer. And so we want to help and we can tell people how to do it. And especially the further we have gotten into our own journey. And you start to hear from someone who's more. At the beginning, you see obvious things like, well, let me fix you, let me help. Because I know the answer. But what we have to realize is what that communicates to the person is often not what we think what we're actually communicating is. You're stupid, you're not smart enough. How come you haven't figured this out? And we might not say anything like that, but that's what they can be hearing. And so that's why in groups we really encourage, we ask permission to ask questions to try to help someone with self discovery. Or I allow in my groups, and I don't know if this is in the guidelines, but in my groups I'll allow people to say, would it be okay if I shared what's worked for me? So I'm not going to give you advice and tell you how to fix you, but I'm going to just try to tell my story so that you might hear what worked. And then if you want to use that grade or if not, it's not putting pressure on you to fix it, it's letting you hear and learn from my experience. And then I think it is just being there to encourage. Because when you hear someone who's maybe starting the journey and they're struggling with something, you feel like, man, you're going to figure this one out. Rather than telling them how to fix it, just give them the encouragement to say, you know, stick with it. Because I know as you're in this group, that's something God's going to help you with or that's an area of your life that's going to change. So don't get discouraged. So rather than fixing them, we try to encourage them to keep working to the point that God's going to bring the fix and they're going to self discover the things they need to work on.

Because that fix doesn't solve the problems. It's the journey of figuring out how to get to that point. That's the healing part, right? Like that's, and that's what I'm hearing you saying is that if I just gave this, you know, cookie cutter Christian answer, maybe it is the right answer. But they're not gonna get healed if they just know the answer in that moment. They need to get to the point where they've processed it and they've learned to understand it and apply that truth to their life. And then once they get to that point, it's the journey that's done, the teaching, not the actual fact or the truth behind it.

Yeah, it kind of goes back even to our whole true, just, you know, that knowledge and, you know, understanding and trying harder it's not just about having the right answer. It's about experiencing it and feeling it and being able to connect it yourself. And like what you said, Trevor, a lot of times you do get that from hearing other people's answers and how it played out in their life, and then it starts connecting for you for sure.

Well, let's talk about another guideline that can be challenging for groups to maintain, and that is the homework. Dum, dum, dum. So, Rich, what are the benefits of doing your homework each week? Why is homework such a big deal in these groups?

You know, the. I think the big thing is it's really going to open you up like you've never been before. It's almost like you're getting filleted like a fish. So basically your whole, I mean, you're just, you're there.

No one's going to want to go through group anymore.

But you know what, what that does is that creates an opportunity for you just to unload everything. And you can't do that in a group if you're not willing to be open and honest in your homework. So the guys, men and women that are coming to group that aren't prepared and don't have their homework done, boy, they're just missing an opportunity to receive this healing that is going to change their lives. I can't say enough. I mean, I've been doing this for over 20 years, and every time I get a new book, I still answer the questions. And every time the answers are different just because of how far I've come. And I know Ashley and you guys can say the same thing. It's just, you know, you're gonna get out of group what you put into it. If you put in 100%, you're gonna get 100% out of it.

Well, I know a lot of people in groups struggle with homework because it's part of their trauma story that doing homework, being evaluated, getting grades in their growing up years is maybe something that went really poorly. And so I always try to remind groups if they want to call it something other than homework, that's okay because homework creates like this trigger of, oh my gosh, I'm not going to be good enough. And so I'll say, you know, call it self discovery, call it answering questions about your life, whatever you want to call it, fine, take it out of that performance mindset. Because when you come to a group, we do not care if you've spelled it wrong, have grammar issues, forgot about words, you are not being evaluated for the homework. We're not going to grade it. It's not turned in. We're not judging your answer. The purpose is you discovering what's going on in your life. And you've got to do that self assessment work in order to learn. And so whatever you can do to help people that have had trauma with homework and being judged get over that, I think is really important too.

Yeah. And I would just like to add that if you're in a group that has a workbook and a journal and you're not doing all of it because that's the way it was designed, you really are missing out on some crucial pieces that are going to help you in your recovery or your healing. Um, there are a lot of groups that will just use one piece or the other or they'll just take a little part of this and maybe supplement with another type of material. And so when we say on the guidelines, you know, to complete all your homework, it really is, let's just focus on the one study. The Seven Pillars or the Betrayal and Beyond Hope for Men, the eight Pillars, the one study, without adding in a bunch of other material because it can really water down what you're trying to focus on. And it's already such big stuff and, and to do it completely. So if it does come with a journal, those are not just, you know, extra books for you to write your feelings in, but they have a lot of the tools that are going to actually help you put feet to your plan and start moving forward and connecting those dots. And so it's important to be doing all of the homework as a group member, both parts that come with the workbook.

Well, as we were talking about it, I've got an example from group in me recently, an experience for me in group where I had a really hard time with a question in one of the pillars and couldn't figure out how to answer it. And I came to group and one of my group members said, this is how I answered this question and this is where I'm at. And I finally had clarity. It was like, oh, okay. So I was able to write something down and still share it in group. But I was having such a really hard time figuring out to this point in my journey where the answer was I couldn't figure it out. And I say that really again to just emphasize that it's important that you do your homework because it may help someone else bring clarity to theirs. And so I practically experienced that. But to not feel bad if you can't find an answer, it's okay. That's not, that's not the issue. The issue is you not doing your homework. If you're spending time and not coming up with an answer, then bring that to your group. I mean, depending on how long you've been together with these people, they know you, they've seen you on your journey, they know your tendencies, and maybe they can help both with their answers and any encouragements they have for you to help you kind of fill in the blanks there.

That's good.

So let's just practically, again, I feel like I say that every episode. I'm the practical guy, I guess. So practically when we're communicating guidelines, uh, you know, Rich, you talked a little bit about setting aside time if these are broken, that we're just gonna take time in group to talk about it. But more commonly, what's the best way or best time to communicate these guidelines to your group?

Well, the best time is right up front when you, when you, your very first group and you just kind of lay out the. Lay. Lay the group out and how it's gonna go in. In the format and you stick to the group model, the 40, 60, 20 format. You know, we didn't talk about that, but that's. That's in there as well, I think. But most importantly, you know, as a group leader, a facilitator, we have to lead by example. And they're not going to follow something if we as leaders aren't doing it. So we have to model what true accountability looks like. If, if I'm not making phone calls to the guys in group, those guys probably aren't going to be making phone calls.

Yeah, it's good.

And if I'm not doing the homework, they're probably not going to do the homework. So as facilitators, you know, we're setting the tone of group and that, you know, when you, when you have a leader that's all in and doing everything, you know, the groups are usually really healthy.

Yeah. And I, I kind of have a different. I put it all out there in the beginning as well. So if I'm leading a personal group at church, a local one that's in person, my first group night will really be like an orientation where I'll share my story, I'll go over the introduction of the book, the table of contents, and I really hammer in what the group guidelines are. And, and I encourage them to go home. And we have podcast episode four was on Effective Group Dynamics. So we cover some of the group guidelines in there. I would have them listen to that. Now I'll say, you know, listen to episode 43 and, and then come back if you're ready to commit. And so I don't even have them commit the first group until they really fully understand the guidelines, because I want people to start my groups and then stay. And I want it to be healthy from the beginning. And then of course, you know, reminders throughout the group. And then if I'm working with online group leaders, I. I will give them the links to the podcast to listen to what a healthy group structure looks like following the guidelines. And I'll let them know it's, you know, nine to ten months of work. You're gonna. It's two hours every week. If you are ready to commit to this, then let me know. And so I just put it in there right in the beginning. And I asked them not even to commit if they're not sure at that time that they can do that.

Well, and to follow up on that, I think it's important. That's important why we have people sign the covenant content and the memor understanding and the memo of understanding you want signed so you can cover your legal basis and people know what they're getting into. But the covenant to contend also is really a person stating, I understand that I need to commit, that I need to contribute and give my best, or it's probably not going to work out. And that signature becomes their statement of understanding it and being committed. So that down the road, if they're not that committed and they're not doing some of these things, you can come back to their signature on their covenant to contend and say, this is what you've said you want to do and that you will do, and it's not happening. And now you're putting healthy responsibility on them to either honor their commitment or admit they're not ready versus having the guidelines or the group itself be the bad guy. Because that's the blame shifting of like, well, this is hard. Are you unreasonable expectations? Like, no, let's look here where you signed and said this is what you want. So how can I help you fulfill your commitment? Or let's be honest and just say you're not ready. So the signatures, I think, are a part of reinforcing what the guidelines say and helping someone honor their commitment.

That's good.

So as we think about the guidelines and all that we've talked about here, whose job is it to make sure that the group stays in these guidelines?

It's really everyone's job. I mean, it's really each individual's job to make sure that they feel safe in the environment, that they feel like it's a good environment for them to learn and to really speak up, like I said and like Trevor said and you said, and that we all kind of can forget some of these guidelines and need constant reminders. And so if things are slipping off, the one who's feeling uncomfortable or noticing it really should be the one to speak up. But as the facilitator, I always tell them that they are like the guardians of the guidelines, that they really.

That's good.

Guardians of the guidelines.

It's your job to be the guardian of the guidelines because they're really not there to advice, give, or to counsel. I just let them know you are the guardian of the guideline. If you can just help create the environment and make sure that the environment stays healthy and safe so that people can come find their own answers, you're going to have a really successful group. And so if you see that the guidelines are getting off, you just remind the women that you're all in this together, that you're all going through the workbook. Nobody's the counselor, nobody's the leader. But as the facilitator, it is your job to be that guardian of the guidelines. And just, you know, I feel like.

You like saying that. You keep saying it again and again and again. It's good.

I like is. It's like if they can just think of that one job, like all they have to do is protect the environment of this group. I'm not responsible to have the answers to fix anybody, but it is the facilitator's kind of role to protect that environment. And so they can just think of that one job then, then, then the group will be pretty strong, in my opinion.

Well, and I think it's the language that we use is important that the more we make sure we talk about it as our group, this is our group, not my group. You're not in my group or even the church's group. This isn't such and such church's group. They might be our oversight, they might provide us through them, but it is our group. And if something's happening we don't like, it's our group. So we need to talk about it. And you shouldn't just wait for the leader to step in or the pastor to fix it. I mean, they have responsibilities that yes, they can help, but when we see it as our group and everybody coming thinks of it, this is my group and we take that ownership, you're going to see a healthy outcome to that group.

So this has been really good. I mean, I think this is something that every group member needs to listen to, whether you're a facilitator or just a member of a group. And so with that, guys, just what would be some final encouragement? So we end every episode this way. What would be some final encouragements to people when it come to. When it comes to the group guidelines.

I would just encourage everybody to know that it's a process and the group guidelines are there because we've developed them over 20 plus years of running groups, and kind of like Ashley said earlier on, it's a lot of dumb tax and we did a lot of things wrong, and now we're doing a lot of things right. And, you know, you just got to stick to the process. It's like I said, it's not easy. It's gonna. It's gonna be a long process, but you're gonna get out of it what you put into it. And the group guidelines are there, so the groups will run smoothly and be a safe environment to share whatever it is you're going through. And, you know, I remember the first group I went to, and I don't think we even had group guidelines back then. And I just opened up and I shared my story very first night, our very first group to everybody. And, you know, when you have these guidelines and these. These set things that are in place to make it a safe place to show. To show who you really are. I mean, really, the sky's the limit of how far you want to go in your recovery. And, you know, I just. The biggest encouragement for me is, you know, I want to love on those guys when they come in the room. And yeah, we have some rules and some guidelines to follow, but my job is to make them feel comfortable and safe in group, and I have to model that. Those guidelines, those pieces that we have in place, that's good.

Mm. And I would say not to be afraid to. To implement, to be feeling like a bad guy for implementing these things, because really, you're doing people a favor. I know for me, with my addictive behaviors and procrastination and just kind of always doing the bare minimum to get by, it is really helpful to me. When somebody calls me up a little higher, draws some more out of me. So as the leader, when you can set the bar higher and help people to see that they can do it, they can commit, they can move things around, it's really great. And. And even if you're listening to the podcast now and realizing that you're in the middle of your group and are not doing some of these things and you can see where it's affected your group in a negative way. Don't be afraid to go back to your group and say, I just heard the new podcast on the group guidelines and I want to take this time to review these and maybe change some things in our group to see if we can make this even a healthier environment, that it's okay to change things mid group.

Yeah, I think that would be my encouragement is just to remember that vision leaks and the group guidelines are casting that vision of the kind of group we want to have, what's going to make it successful. And at the get go, if you've done it well, people have that vision, but over time, vision leaks, and that includes for myself, for yourself, as the leader, even. And so you need to revisit them and recapture that vision of the kind of group we want to have, what makes it successful, and keep casting that vision for yourself and one another. And as I do that for myself and recommit myself to them, it's going to make it that much easier for the group to do the same. And it's not a bad thing to have to revisit these. It's just the reality of over time, we all drift back to what's comfortable, what's easy, and we want to remember what's comfortable and what's easy got us into the problem. That's not going to help us out of the problem. So we've got to be willing to be a little uncomfortable, to do things that are a little challenging, that might be hard so that we change. And so just keep casting the vision and you'll see the outcomes that you really want.

Yeah. And then just a little tip for me would just be to use examples when you're talking about these guidelines initially, when you're talking to your group about it. You know, if you need to use someone else's examples, maybe you listen to this podcast and you've come up with some examples from what we've said. Use them so people practically know what these look like in group. And so they can be more aware of when something happens. They're able to better identify. Okay, that was a guideline that was broken. So that's just a simple thing. So, guys, this was awesome. I. I like this. I mean, the group guidelines can seem like a really boring document, but it's not. When it's really when the fruit of it is going on in a group, it's a beautiful thing. And I think that it's something as group members, it's easy to under emphasize this and then sometimes really easy to overlook it, especially at the beginning. So we hope that this conversation really is just a kickstarter in the sense of, you know, revamping it in your mind. Whether you're a group member or facilitator or just a church member looking to join a group. We hope that this would be beneficial for you and really help show the importance of these things. So, Rich, Ashley, Nick, thanks guys. Really appreciate your time.

Yeah, thanks for having me here.

Glad to be here.

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