044 – Pastors & Porn

Welcome to the Pure Desire Podcast where we partner with you to bring hope.

And freedom on your journey to purity.

Before we start the podcast today, we wanted to let you know about a new resource we have, our Stories for Women book study. This study will take you through 20 stories of women who have been impacted by sexual brokenness. This study can be completed individually or with a small group. Whether you find yourself on a healing journey from the impact of sexual brokenness or simply want to become more aware of this growing issue, this book study is for you. As you study their stories and step into the lives of these women, may you discover encouragement and lasting hope. To order your copy of our new Stories for Women book study, visit PureDesire.org enjoy the podcast.

Hey there. I'm your host, Trevor Windsor, and we're so thankful you're taking time out of your day to hang out with us. I'm here as always with my co host, Nick Stumbo.

Yeah, I got nothing. Trying so hard to come up with a new greeting.

Well, let me, let me just set the stage real quick.

Silence will be my new greeting.

Let me set the stage for the listeners. We have been traveling all day. We are currently sitting in a hotel room in Pennsylvania and it is 11 o' clock at night. So just know that we really do take this seriously. But just know we're a little jet lagged. We're recovering east coast, west coast time. So with that, back with us today is the tender Teddy bear himself, Rodney Wright. Welcome back.

Hey, nice to be here. Thank you, Trevor.

So glad to have you back.

Yes.

So we wanted to spend our time today talking about the correlation we see between pastors and pastoral ministry and sex or porn addiction. We all three have been pastors and have had the sexual struggles as well. So we hope that today's conversation can help encourage, educate, and equip pastors to know what it looks like to find freedom and maintain sobriety. Now, now, if you're not a pastor, please stick with us. This issue is one that can affect anyone in any ministry. So we hope that it will also help you better understand how to pray for support and come alongside your pastors in our fighting for sexual integrity together. And also just know that this stuff is also gonna be helpful for you as well. So with that, guys, are you ready? Can we jump in?

Let's do it.

Let's do this.

Right on, Rod. Let's start with this. The statistics paint a pretty scary picture when you look at the reality of how many pastors currently struggle with with porn or sex. Addiction. Why is that the case?

Yeah, I think some of the latest stats I've been aware of are like 50% at some level have struggled. I think it just represents what's going on in our culture and how it's not just a church phenomenon, but really a cultural phenomenon. And not all, but many of the pastors, this was an issue maybe started in their adolescent years and there was maybe some confusion about what it looks like to, you know, reach sobriety and gain sobriety and learn how to navigate through this in a real healthy way. So for many, I know in my case it looked a little bit more like binge and purge. And then you thought, hey, that's not a problem anymore. That was yesterday, last week, last month. And you would distance yourself at some level. So you didn't fit in that category. Sure, you know, and I think part of the reason why it, I think is a big issue is because culturally in our churches, it's just not something we're addressing head on and starting the education at a young age. Typically this is when it hits most of us at a young age. I mean, for me, I'm 50, so that was many years back. But I'm saying more and more in society, most of our kids are exposed at some level. So it's something everyone will face. We as leaders have to really come to health in this arena and then help other people. So we must model what we want people to experience. And if we're not personally healthy at this level, then I think this is really where it's tragic and it's a real problem we got to address. I know that many times when young people are entering into some kind of a ministry through a local church or denomination, sometimes some of the leaders that are helping answer the questions, or what's the word I'm looking for when someone's being a candidate, interviewing them and that whole process, if those adults haven't come to terms with their negative sexual history, they just know they navigated it, but they don't ever talk about it. I think this is part of the problem too.

It's not creating a culture where it's okay to talk about it.

Exactly. So, you know, I just think that we have to ask these questions and be real poignant to people that are getting into full time ministry or any kind of church leadership. Male, female, let's just ask the questions. Let's take some, maybe even some inventories to find out where people are at and really help them discover. You know, for me, when I was a youth, I didn't think I had an addiction. That's how deceived I was in my religious culture. I thought I just didn't have the victory that day, and now I'm better, so I didn't even have that. You know, I was. Part of my dysfunction was. I didn't even think believers could have addictions. That's kind of how, you know, my misguided. I was. I think so. I think just approaching this from a way different subject. This is where, for me, so grateful for pure desire and the voice it's giving to help people on the front end say, hey, we're here. There's help, there's resources. This is a brain problem more than a moral problem. I think that's a big piece of this equation, for sure.

Well, and you look at the reality that all the men and women I know that are pastors are also human beings. Right. And so as human beings, they are not immune to struggles, they're not immune to brokenness. They're not immune to hormones and desires. And from my experience, both personally and in so many people I've talked to, most seminaries, Bible colleges, places where you're trained for ministry don't really deal with this. And we still have an assumption that happens that spiritual or theological knowledge and health will equal health in other areas of life, which isn't necessarily true. So the more we can recognize that theological knowledge and wisdom doesn't necessarily equal sexual or emotional health, we can let men and women who are in the ministry be human beings that have a story and things they need to deal with. And just like you're saying, Rodney, the culture we've created, I think, assumes. It assumes a lot that, well, you've been trained in the Bible, you know God's word, you can pray so well. Look at how well you preach.

You must be pure, you know right from wrong.

Yeah. But then on the inside, there still can be deep dysfunction. And so we just have to get to a place where we remember that men and women in ministry are normal people. And we might get asked a few questions along the way. How goes it with your soul, Old? Or how are you doing in this area? And like I found in my story, I could find the right way to answer those questions where I could be just honest enough that I wouldn't feel like I was lying.

Right.

But also not give any information that might inadvertently disqualify me because that's a huge fear. And so it creates early on this separation between what I do and who I'm becoming as a pastor. And who I am in private. And we just need to create environments where that's addressed as part of our training.

Well, and part of it too, and this was kind of a little bit of my experience is I found that the actual position of a pastor can feel like an island sometimes. It can feel very isolating. And we know that shame is bred in isolation. And especially when it comes to this addiction. It's something that happens in isolation. And I know for me there was this misunderstanding of being a pastor. I had to be perfect, I had to be a professional Christian. Therefore I can't share my life with other people. And because of that, I felt like I was on this island by myself with the Bible and it wasn't working. And so I felt like I had to distance myself. And so I think that even just in the actual nature of the position, it can tend to push people towards any addiction, any way of really isolating.

Well, what Nick talked about earlier as well is about our emotional well being. And we know that sexual addiction is an intimacy disorder. The inability to process and make intimate connection, non sexual relationships, about sharing our thoughts and feelings and learning how to process that peace. So I think it's really taking a more holistic approach to individuals, about your life in general, how you're managing things, and really just being proactive about the subject matter, which is unfortunately sometimes a really a hard subject matter to look at. What is good and healthy about our human sexuality? So that's a great place to start is what is good, what is right, what is healthy, where does it navigate toward unhealthy and how can we kind of cut that off at the pass and redirect people into a healthier way? And I think this is where pure desire really has some great material and opportunities and resources that can help denominations to be way more proactive with this and take a clinical as well as a theological approach to this, because they're both spiritual and the integration of those together really can be beneficial.

Yeah, yeah. So how would you guys say is the right way, or at least a healthy way for a pastor to go about identifying and then admitting that he or she has a problem in this area?

Well, I wouldn't tweet it first of all, post it on Facebook. Like some of our leaders are taking.

A selfie on Instagram and.

Yeah, yeah, I mean, I think this is the hard piece because where do we go for disclosure and proper disclosure and who to disclose with? I think this is where the root of the fear comes, if I'm honest. What's the cost of this in some churches or denominations, any kind of discrepancy in this arena automatically disqualifies you. So again, that would mean go underground and don't tell anybody. And we know that you're as sick as your secrets. So ultimately, that isn't the case. But I think, Nick, it would be finding a trusted friend, finding somebody maybe in the scheme of ministry or an elder, somebody that really that you trust, that knows good resources and tools to help you. Because for me, I was confessing to people that I knew. My brother, my father. But it was more than just confession. It's finding the right tools and resources to help that healing process begin. And I think that that would be my recommendation. And my hope is that more and more churches and denominations, fellowships, move toward getting a proactive approach to help people in this arena.

Yeah. And I think it's important to recognize the double bind that pastors are feeling. That idea that if I confess, I might lose my job. But not confessing, I continue to struggle. And I think there are many people that are serving as pastors in denominations where the truth is, if they went voluntarily to a mentor or advisor within their denomination and asked for help, the denominations I talk to and work with, I know that would be received very favorably, that ministry leaders want to see their men and women find health, but in the secrecy of I can't talk to anyone, actually, then the pattern gets worse until the point that something is exposed. And that does make it necessary for a person to be removed from ministry. And so that'd be an encouragement I would give to any pastor that recognizes there's a struggle is to really honestly assess. Is my fear based on my shame, or is it legitimate fear that I know there's a barrier in my denomination? Because I'm sure there are many denominations still that this would be a. Basically a fireable offense. And so that person needs to really seek help through a friend and. And go there first. But I know so many other pastors, if they would approach someone in their denominational circle, they'd actually get a lot of support, and they could be a part of changing that culture in their particular denomination.

And the thing is, is what you guys are getting at is that don't keep it to yourself. You need to share it with somebody, Whether it's a trusted person, friend, whether it's a counselor, whether it's, you know, an elder board that has your back. Don't keep it to yourself. That's basically so don't dump it all over the congregation. They don't need that in their life right now. But definitely say something because it doesn't.

Help everybody to give them that information.

It may help the pastor. He may feel better afterwards, but it may create more chaos in his body.

Exactly. But not everybody needs to know at this level. But I do think if you can't find a professional, this is where. At Pure Desire, we have a great counseling center that you can call and say, here's where I'm at. And they can really give you fantastic advice with your denomination to help navigate you through that, to get you talking to the right people. I know for me, it was. I went to see a professional and saying, here's my issue 20 some years ago, so can you help me? Because what I'm doing over here isn't helping me. That was a great person for me to go to because they were trained in that area. We went through Patrick Karn's material. They helped guide me to disclosure. And, you know, but. But, boy, don't wait till you get caught. That's what we want to echo, you know, Come on. Don't wait till you get caught. Take the proactive step to say you're worth getting help.

So let's push into that a little bit. So let's say a pastor knows there's a problem, knows there either is a current issue or maybe has been a past issue, how much is okay to share of the current or past struggles to their church? Like, how much vulnerability should a pastor really exhibit from the pulpit in front of the church?

Nick, you want to weigh in on that first? So if they're currently in a struggle.

You'Re saying either current or past, how much of that should they be sharing from the pulpit?

Well, I think if it's a past issue and the person has made amends with the people that they've offended, and they've really done the healing work, and time has gone by. I think now that becomes a part of our story that we share and in appropriate settings, in appropriate places. I think that's a discernment call in that regards. But to say I would never share it with anybody, I would just be a little bit leery of that, because now that becomes the secret that you can never talk about.

Well, specifically, you know, let's talk. Let's say this is a pastor that's preaching on a consistent basis. You're in front of the congregation, and that's a really good avenue for you to connect with people and communicate to a large audience at the same time. And so is it ever okay. To share in that setting about. I think what I'm hearing from you guys right now is that current struggles. Be close. Like, be. Be really careful. Don't just step into that and dump everything. But when you. Maybe you're on, like, the beginning end or the beginning of healing, or you're starting to get more understanding, is it okay to be vulnerable about your problem? Process.

A couple things that come to mind for me. You know, I would encourage a practice where you never share anything with your congregation. That would be a surprise either to your elders or to your spouse.

Yeah.

So if you're going to say anything from the pulpit, that's going to be news to either of those groups. That's not wise. Make sure that the people that you're responsible to and that you're married to know that information first and feel comfortable with it being shared. And that's just a great barometer because those are people that can say, oh, yeah, that's totally the kind of thing that we're okay with you sharing. Or they might say, you know, right now we want to support you, we want to walk with you through this. But that's probably not going to be helpful information for the congregation. Another thing that has been helpful for me to think about is why am I a pastor? Is it that I am the most gifted and spiritual person and so they gave me the job, or is it because I'm called? And if you recognize that I'm in ministry because I'm called to be, then my faults and mistakes don't. Aren't what disqualify me. In fact, they're part of God's call on my life. They're part of how I minister. And so I really encourage people that are in ministry to think about. Your vulnerability is actually more a part of your ministry than you've ever realized. And so that doesn't mean we share everything with everyone. But I think it also means there's nothing in my life that needs to be secret and hidden because God can use it in my ministry. Now, if it's a current struggle. Yeah, there's. There's something to be said for the adage of not bleeding on the congregation, but we don't want to be so, you know, feeling like I've got to be perfect before I can share it. That. Yeah, that we're not sharing anything. And so that's where having trusted people in your life, having a counselor that works in this area, or working with pure desire, being in a group, that's really going to give you discernment of when is it okay to take this from being something that is fairly confidential? Because the beginning of our, our journey towards health, it is a confidential subject where we're sharing with maybe a few people in a group. But as we experience health and victory, we see that God wants to use that what's happening in our life for the good of others. So that might be the third thing I would just say is what's your motive in sharing it?

Right.

Is your motive in sharing it to glorify God and help others? Or is it to make myself somehow feel cleansed and feel better that I was honest? So as a pastor, I don't think that should ever be our motive just to try to feel better that I got something out there. But if I see how God can use it to encourage others, then I'm starting from the right motive.

And I think if you invite trusted voices, counselors, Pure desire counseling team, other denominational mentors, they can help you to self discover of, you know, this is something I actually need to step away from serving in leadership because I've crossed some lines or I definitely need help because we do know there are situations and there are circumstances where people do need to step away. Your issue really hasn't put you in a good place to serve. And so where we think, gosh, I can't do that, that's a step backwards. It looks like a momentarily step backwards, but really it's a step forward because our health is the best gift we bring. And sometimes we just have to get off the field to get on the bench and say, I'm not in a good position to run the play, Coach, I need help. And that's actually a very good step for you. And if you have some trusted people around you that can help you come to that decision on your own, that's much better than somehow just stepping out or making a decision randomly.

And going on your analogy there, it's better to play healthy than to play hurt. I think a lot of people think as long as I'm in the game, I'm bringing benefit. But that's not always true. If you're not healthy and you're in the game, you actually can bring the team down and make the team worse. And so being committed to your health, I see as something that if you do, if you need to say, coach, take me out right now. I need to sit this one out and get healthy, I think that that is the most courageous thing you can do as a pastor.

Right. And we know that this takes courage. I think in vulnerability. This is where, you know, we're all a big fan of Brene Brown and the work that she's done in vulnerability. You know, it has the same attributes as courage. You know, you risk, there's emotional feelings and you go for it. So, you know, your health is the best gift you bring to your family, to yourself, to your congregation, to your marriage. If you're married and investing in yourself, seeing that as the core motivation is, I can't stress that enough for guys or gals. Be motivated because you matter and your health matters. And I think healthy really is the new holy. I think that's what we're striving and people want to see in the, in the pulpit. Are these people healthy individuals? And that doesn't mean that you've never made mistakes, but you've learned to heal and to get on a road of healing, a journey of healing, and then live differently. That's why I love the holistic, comprehensive approach of what pure desire offers. It's not just about sex. It's about the way we do life and doing it in a healthy way.

Yeah.

Well, this conversation leads right into our next question. We've already started to answer it, but how should a pastor remain in full time ministry while getting healthy? What do you think determines the difference between what you were saying, Trevor? Playing hurt and playing. Playing healthy?

Yeah, I think that, I mean, just personally, my experience looking at when I was dealing with my addiction and I was in ministry, I don't think I was as helpful as maybe I thought I was. And so I wish I would have taken a step back, honestly, because I think I, I allowed myself to get physically unhealthy too. Not just, you know, when it came to addiction, but emotionally and physically unhealthy. And so in some ways I think it's case case to, you know, case by case, depending on where your support's coming from, if your denomination is behind you and is helping you and you're moving forward, but if it's something that you're really struggling with and you're not seeing any traction, then I would, I would ask, am I bringing the team down or am I helping the team by just continuing to really not be vulnerable and also not seek help? So at that point, I would suggest maybe stepping back is the right move.

Yeah. And we also know that there are different levels of infidelity and breaking trust and the sexual dysfunction is such a big arena. So I really think this is where submitting to other people that can know your history and not making that Decision alone in a vacuum. But really trust that there's some good resources out there that can help. You know, hey, when it's in your best interest or your family or your spouse, if you're married, to really step aside for a while. I know that I did for a few months and I think it was in everybody's best interest. I was fortunate for me that I moved toward self discover and seeking help, not waiting to get caught. But there was a season where we did step out and just focus on our family and then step back in in a healing process that was happening. So I think leaving that to the discernment of others because otherwise sometimes you could run the risk of not being completely honest. And that's the worst thing we want you to do is just confess to what it is. You can keep your job. You don't come to terms with the brokenness and the honesty. At whatever level there's been that breach of trust or the hurt that's been caused by you or to you or whatever it may be, come to terms with it and find safe places to share it all and then trust people in this arena that can help you know where to go from there.

Yeah. And there are. We talk about this quite a bit as a ministry. There are lines that when they're crossed, it's appropriate for that pastor to step out or to be removed for a time if it involves something illegal. Other people, obviously those are major concerns that need to be dealt with. Some other things we look at is if it's really consuming a person's life, it's consuming their thoughts, they need to recognize that and say I'm not fit for ministry right now. Or if, if they're really battling with a lot of secrecy and denial. Because that's the thing, as you say, Rodney, you're not being authentic if you're still living in denial.

Right.

But one of the things I really appreciate about Pure desire and that was so meaningful in my story is they do have this approach where we see that someone can remain in ministry, be functioning well and be on their healing journey. That perfection doesn't have to be achieved before there can be effectiveness in ministry. Right. So like you say, it's. It's really leaving that discernment to the elders or those that oversee you and a counselor that can advise you. But in so many of these cases, with what we're dealing with today, I think more often than not it's a battle with lust. It's a battle with occasional bouts of pornography kind of that binge purge cycle that really is not defining the person's life. It's that. That thing they stumble into and they're trying to figure out. And really remaining in ministry is highly possible and can even be a part of the healing. Because if you're in a healthy ministry context, it's community and people around you that are part of your healing versus removing a person from ministry always, almost always leaves them in isolation, and now they feel cut off from the people that could be a part of their healing. So there is kind of a case by case basis. But if possible, there's a lot of wisdom in leaving a person in the healthy structure they're in while they're getting healthy in this area of their life.

Well, and don't overemphasize this, because every pastor sins. Every pastor has sin issues in their life that they deal with. And so don't feel like just because you maybe have struggles in this area that that automatically means you need to step out. Because there may be a pastor who struggles with spending money or is addicted to gambling or anything. It could be anything. So just understand that if you see it and you want to address it, that that is the signs of someone who really could stay in ministry and continue to serve. So don't elevate this above as if it's the trump card that if this is the only thing you struggle with, then.

And I think, Nick, you talk about healthy cultures. Unfortunately, you know, those. Maybe those that are listening to the podcast today, not every church culture is healthy. Unfortunately, some of them may be pretty legalistic. And so, you know, maybe you get removed from that culture, but ultimately, maybe in the long run, that could be the best thing, because the culture itself isn't always safe, you know, and this is why sometimes a good AA group is better than a legalistic church, because at least here you can be honest and you can be real and not live in denial, you know, and so I think this is where every. Every situation is different. But if you're in a grace culture that is moving people toward healing and wholeness and restoration, I think that's, you know, there can be really good, positive things about creating community there within the congregation that helps move you toward healing if the situation is correct.

All right, guys, so let's say a pastor has come to grips with what's going on, and they want to disclose to their church, they want to share about the struggle, whether it's, I've started to get help, I need to step out of ministry. How should a church respond? What does it look like for a church to respond in a healthy way if their pastor discloses of an addiction or affair or some sexual struggle?

Well, I think a healthy culture is just really being grateful that the individual deems the culture safe enough for them to come and be honest. I think valuing honesty is, you know, really reflecting the heart of God that we see clearly in Jesus. Those people, you know, God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble. The humble heart, I think, is the way forward. And so when you see people being honest, being really grateful, I mean, I would rather know than not know the truth. So when someone's honest and is truthful, to me, I'm just like, well, this is a great day. Even though, you know, in some situations all hell breaks loose in their lives. But at least you know what the truth is. And if you can get to the truth by someone disclosing it and being honest, it's way better than someone getting caught. So I think that a church's response should be, first of all, hey, thank you for sharing this. This means a lot that you would value us enough to be honest with us. That's what creates integrity, is you just living an honest life and caring more about others, the congregation, than just your own life. But hopefully, you know, you can find cultures out there where people will be grace filled. And Jesus was full of grace and truth. So it's not one or the other, but now that we still accept you in our faith community. But let's figure out what the truth is and where you're at and how we can help you heal. And I think, hopefully that would be the heart of any leader, is to restore and to heal, to bring sozo, as the scripture says, bring true salvation. The healing process can begin to happen in that individual's life. That's what our faith communities are about. But unfortunately, if you're in a legalistic one, it doesn't always turn out that way.

Yeah, we want to have grace for our leaders, just like we want our leaders to have grace for us on the other side. We also want to make sure we're thinking about the wife and the family, because that can be a very shameful place for them when something comes out or even if it's a healthy disclosure, a wife that's kind of feeling suddenly awkward, how do people feel about me? And in our own story, you know, when I did public disclosure at our church, the way my wife was just loved on and embraced and encouraged, you know, people asking, how are you doing? That's a really important aspect. So I'd encourage people to think about that. How are they treating the family and embracing them? And the other thing that comes to mind when I hear this question, you know, one of the things I loved as a pastor about doing marriages was the way I could invite everyone in the audience to think about the condition of their own marriage and their own relationships and why I enjoy doing funerals. As funny as that sound is, I loved the sober reality that at a funeral we all look at what am I doing with my life? Am I using it for the glory of God? And I think if you're in a situation where your pastor or someone that serves you in leadership is being open about their struggle, what an awesome opportunity to look into your own life and say, how am I doing in this area? Because if my leaders are facing stuff in their life, am I facing this in mine? And making sure we don't get into any kind of, you know, distancing ourselves, oh, good for them. But yet we're leaving something unaddressed in ours. And so it's such a wonderful opportunity for congregation because when there's authenticity up front, it invites everyone into that same place of saying, let's deal with this. And so don't miss that opportunity if you're a person in the congregation, to look into your own life and say, God, what do you want to do in this area? In my life, yeah, it's huge.

You know, here's an interesting piece. I know for me as a Gen Xer, I see the millennials are much more open and honest about this subject. I think what's tragic recently are tragic is recently hearing about someone that's been in ministry for 50 years and now just getting caught. It's tragic. And I think that generation that's maybe 10, 20 years older than me, even more so. It wasn't safe. It was very holiness driven, legalistic. And when you hear of individuals like that that just never felt safe or never could have the courage or was more concerned about their rep than being honest and living authentic, man, listen, I just want to say to the 25 year old or the, you know, get help now, don't wait till you're 60, 70, 50 years old. Do it now, today, you know, well.

And even more than that, I think you guys are really touching on a piece that's important for churches to know today anyways, is that that authenticity, that vulnerability, that realness that they have, that's how you reach people, that people will come to your church if you're a real person. I don't Want to see someone who's got a fancy suit on and it's a production from top to bottom. Like, I want to know you're a real person that struggles and goes through life just like I do. And so to know that even if it's not in the sexual realm, even if it's any other problem or struggle that you have that vulnerability and that realness of who you are is going to attract people to your church.

Yeah. And I think what. What doesn't help us is just some of the taboos we have around the subject of sexuality and not being able to address that proactively in a. In a healthy way first. So, you know, I'm always an advocate for. Let's start at a young age, helping people have a healthy conversation. So when they come across what's unhealthy or dysfunctional about sexual temptation or pornography, that they're much more open to have that conversation with people, because there's already an openness with dad or with somebody there, and it creates that safe place to be real and to be vulnerable.

So, guys, let's go back into this idea of pastors and their struggle, because one of the things we talk about at Pure Desire is a habitual struggle is an addiction, and we refer to it as sexual addiction. And so how is it possible for a pastor, someone who is viewed as a professional Christian, to be an addict?

I think it's a great question, Nick. I think that, you know, in the paradigm I grew up in, you know, it's kind of, once you found Jesus, all problems cease.

And that sounds nice.

Yeah, it was just like, you know, everything. Automatic transformation of your life. And I think the reality is that all humans are addicted to our way of thinking. And I think this is the universal sin. We're all addicted to this. And I think that for some pastors, they're just workaholics. They're addicts to work. It's the dopamine they get of serving people. And I think those people look like Superman, and they look noble, but maybe they're neglecting intimate relationships with their family or being emotionally available for people. But it doesn't look like an addiction because it's not gambling, sex, or alcohol. But the reality is that sometimes we can all have addictions. They just look way different in other areas. We all know that about food addiction or about just computer use, the dopamine that comes from Facebook, or all those things can become addictive. I think part of it, there's just a misnomer that Christians can't be addicted. And I think the reality is that we can and this is really learning to have a holistic approach to our life and managing life in a healthy way. And self awareness, which we talk a lot and teach on in pure desire, which is really great. How am I doing right now, managing my life and what's happening and being aware of that process that could happen.

Well, and it's funny because if you look at the life of someone who you would say, who isn't in relationship with Jesus but is a sex or porn addict, and then you look at the life of a Christian who has the same exact life, it looks the same way, but they claim to be a follower of Jesus. It's not that you. The fact that you have Jesus doesn't make you not an addict. Like, if the fruit of both lives are the same, then you need to understand there may be something's going on here that you didn't know about beforehand. And understanding too, you know, we go into, and I'm probably the wrong person to talk about this, but the neurochemistry of addiction and how your brain is wired and how it functions on a daily basis and how when you create those neural pathways in your brain, when you keep doing habits over and over and over again, you get into a rut where you can't get out unless you replace that, unless you start new habits. And so you at a neurological level can become an addict regardless of if you have Jesus or not. Because he doesn't come in. I know he does to some people. And believe me, I wish I would have had that experience where Jesus just descended on me and said, you are healed forever from this addiction. And it was gone. But that wasn't my story. And so we can't just bank on the fact that we have Jesus is going to deliver us right then and there from the effects of our sin like that. We have to understand that we have to put work in to get out of it as well.

Well, I think this is where we talk about that adage, that we talk about retraining the brain, not just refraining from bad behavior. So I think this is how I see repentance in scripture. Metanoia, changing the way you think. So the repentance of following Jesus is believing and repenting. And so as we follow and believe, we trust more, we open up our lives and we allow the Holy Spirit to change the way we think about ourselves, about God, about other people. And that process really brings the transformation to me. Unfortunately, we've dumbed down the gospel Just to sell hell insurance, say these words so if you die, you don't go to hell. Rather than the invitation of God within us, the incarnation happening within Rodney, Nick, Trevor Relationship. Yeah, exactly. That transforms us from the inside out. And trusting this God with all things in our life and realizing that it's safe to be open and honest and intimate, and God's really wanting to change us from the inside out. To me, that's the heart of the gospel, is the invitation to eternal life. John 17:3. This is eternal life. Jesus said that you would know the Father and his Son, Jesus Christ. It's all about relationships. It's the knowing that brings the transformation.

In our lives and knowing that when Christ delivers us and we are offered salvation, the power of sin is gone, but the presence is still there. And looking at scripture, we know that we have to partner with Christ. We have to be the ones who are walking alongside Him. He isn't just going to drag us into holiness. We have to step along with him. He's going to show us the path. He's going to lead the way, but we also have to partner with him in that.

Yeah, it's a both and yeah, not either or so. So this whole thing about addictions, I think that, you know, to think Christians can't have addictions or pastors, I think we kind of have our head in the sand in that regard, if that's kind of our thinking. And I think the world looks at that and says, you know, how many more pastor stories do they have to hear to say, really, you want me to buy what from you again? You know, they really want to know that we're transformed and healing our shame. And I think that's where you talk about vulnerability. And for those of us that have been on a journey of healing and found this process, this is why I hear God's courage to say, Rodney Nick Trevor, share your story and let's help the world. Because I think that this would draw people in flocks for ministers to stand up and say, let me tell you about my addiction. Let me tell you about my struggle with sexual addiction or infidelity or whatever it may be. And let me tell you about the grace of God that's brought healing not only to me, but reconcile me with my family or in some cases, I lost the marriage, but I'm a healthier person or whatever it may be. But the grace of God that redeems and that brings us to becoming a changed individual. I think that's what people really want to see. And to me that's the heart of the gospel. And if that's not happening in us as pastors, we're not even smoking what we're selling, as they say in California, where I grew up, you know what I'm saying? It's like we don't really have the gospel that transforms us. We just have some kind of religious goods and services that we're passing on, and we're just kind of a puppet mouthpiece. But we're not transformed from the inside out. And I think that's where the rubber meets the road. That's what the world needs to see.

So Ted Roberts said to me early in my journey that we're all made to be addicted to Jesus, and we've learned to be addicted to something else. And I think if we could embrace that reality that everyone probably at some level has an addiction to a negative behavior that's causing them harm, but they continue to do it because it's meeting a need in their life. And if we would broaden our definition of addiction in the church, I think it would be destigmatized and we'd realize that pretty much we're all in the same boat with something. And learning to redirect people's behaviors and thoughts and attitudes about that would really allow pastors also to be honest, say, I have an addiction, and that doesn't put me into some category of non believer. That just makes me part of the club that's being honest about my struggles.

Well, and Nick, let me just break that down a little bit more, if you don't mind. But when you say I'm addicted to Jesus, let's break that down to say we were meant for authentic, open, honest relationships. So this is where James says, confess your faults one to another and pray for one another that you may be healed. So to me, it's not just Jesus and I get in a room and then we're all good. It's about recognizing that it's the Christ in you, Nick, that I see. And when I open my life up in real, open, honest, intimate relationships, knowing and being known that intimacy, not sexual, but. But knowing and being known that, I think that's where that connection is, what we were all made for. And I think that's the power of the Father, Son and Spirit at work within us. And when we have real, authentic community with brothers or sisters, with sisters or individuals, we say, man, that was a great conversation with those guys. I want more of that. Because that's real. It's authentic. It's life changing.

Okay, so We've talked a lot, really, about if a pastor is struggling, really that scenario. But what do we desire? What do we offer to a pastor who might be struggling with a sex or porn addiction?

Well, as I answer that question, I want to make sure that we're not trying to say that they have a unique struggle that needs to be treated differently, but sometimes their role does necessitate that they have an avenue to get help first or confidentially before they're able to bring something into their church. So it was with that heart and recognizing the double bind that leaders face, that if I confess it, I feel like I lose my career. But in not confessing it, the struggle just gets worse. So we created what was originally called the POW program, you know, in great Ted Roberts language, Prisoners of War. And the challenge with that is we figured no one really wants to be a prisoner of war unless they have to be.

No, thank you.

So let's make the title a little more attractive. So now we just call it our Pure Desire Leaders Program. And what that is, that's a partnership, not necessarily with the pastors directly, but it's a partnership with churches or denominations or districts that have said we want to provide a covering for our pastors and we want to communicate a message to them clearly that says if this is a struggle in your life, we want to help you. And so that partnership is a two way street between the church, denomination or district and Pure Desire, where we provide a number of benefits, both on the proactive side and the intervention side, so that if it's a pastor that needs help, they're able to come confidentially, to get counseling at a discounted rate, but also to have a connection with their supervisor or the person that's encouraging them to go and be a part of this. We stay in dialogue with their supervisors so that they're aware of their progress and how they're doing. And that's what really creates the security that a pastor isn't just out there on their own trying to get healed or get better, but they've got the support of their, their oversight, the people that are part of directing them. So we really find that that is effective because then it's not just someone trying to escape and get better and not have anyone hear about it, but they're actually pursuing healing. And then the proactive side is for pastors and denominations that have this partnership, there's a number of discounts on when they order books or the kind of trainings we do. And so we'd love to have people call and ask us more about that, because I think it's a really exciting opportunity for a church or a district to say, we want to be proactive about providing for the emotional health of our pastors in this way.

I think that's so huge, Nick, that that's being offered and that it would be my hope that more churches and denominations and fellowships would say, let's be proactive in this. And some of the resources that continue to come out of helping churches and leaders is really a gift, that partnership, another expression of the kingdom of God, the body of Christ.

Yeah, and we'll have that information in the show notes for the episode so people can check out the PDL program as well.

Okay, guys, let's shift the focus just a little bit. We've talked a lot about pastors and leaders, but what if someone is listening and they're not a pastor, they're not one of the leaders in their church? What can they do to help their pastor? What are some things they could do to better support a pastor or leader that they find is going through this journey towards healing?

So something that I think a lot of people tend to overlook is their ministry in the life of their pastor. And so the fact that them being in community with them, coming alongside them, doing life with them, is just as impactful and is a ministry of their own to their pastor as their pastor's ministry to them in the congregation. And so in that, sharing your story, being honest, being vulnerable, being open about your life and being a real person, because I'll tell you, when I was a pastor, I could tell that there are people who would give me the fake smiles and say, hi, Pastor, nice to see you. But those weren't the people I was really in community with. I was in community with people who would tell me about their life and ask me about my day to day and ask me about my marriage and parenting and would just be real and honest with me. So I think that in that you create this culture of being a real person, being a real sinner who's toiling and struggling and fighting and winning in the life of a Christian and just walking alongside your pastor, I think that that can do wonders.

Yeah, I would echo that. The more pastors can be around people who are real and authentic and vulnerable about their lives, you're giving a greater gift to your pastor than you realize because you're actually leading the way of him or her becoming vulnerable back and you're showing them the way of authenticity. So to me, that's the best gift because many Times pastors, we isolate ourselves, and we don't think there's anybody we can talk to. And sometimes your vulnerability may be the very spark that would encourage some gal or some guy in church leadership to say, I'm gonna get help. Thank you so much. Because this is a real issue for me in whatever arena, sexuality or any other aspect of their life as well.

Yeah. And I would say just be courageous enough not to run away from the message.

Yeah.

Because there's probably something in all of us that wants our pastor to be perfect and have it all together. And so if our pastor is admitting to this struggle, probably at some point, we're gonna feel like, I just want to go where it all seems perfect. But then we're, you know, we're really settling for something that isn't real, maybe because it makes us feel good. So the. The messiness of a situation like this can be challenging, but I think it's what changes all of us, and it invites us into facing our own mess and when we can all recognize we've got messes and we're all dealing with them and what a difference that makes. And so, just to echo what you guys said, when I was a pastor, the greatest support I got, really, from people in my church was they didn't run away from it. They leaned in, they said, how can we be a part of it? We want to be in these groups. We want to address our issues. They let my story become our story. And I think that was the coolest thing, that it wasn't just that I had a story, but we all started to have a story, and it began to change our culture as a church.

That's great.

I think that's a real compliment to your leadership, Nick, and the faith community. That was a grace centered culture, and that was okay with mess. Not every culture is like that, unfortunately. So if it's a staff member or pastor struggles, it's just, don't tell anyone, unfortunately. Sometimes that's the advice that some of our leaders are getting. Again, that creates a culture of shame and a culture of secrecy. Even if you find sobriety, don't tell anyone your story. And I just think that's the opposite of the kingdom of God, or what Jesus called us to be is lights and darkness.

And, well, if someone is stuck in a situation like that, we want to invite them to come and let us help you find health. And we'll talk together about how you can go back into that culture and be a part of changing it, because it really is possible, but it has to start with you, it has to start with change in the pastor's life.

Yep, yep. You can model that change. Great.

So, guys, this has been awesome. Seriously, so awesome. I just want to kind of transition us to this last question we ask. This one every episode is what would be just anybody out there listening, whether they're a pastor or not? What would. What would be some final encouragements you'd give?

I think my final encouragement, whether pastor or not, would be to say to everyone, don't wait. I remember when this offer as a pastor came to me to get involved in my own healing and I was stuck in so much rationalization and denial that I thought I had it under control. Yeah, it was happening once in a while and I look back and realize I almost missed the opportunity because I thought it wasn't that big of a deal. But having walked through it, it is by far the most transformational thing that has ever happened in my life. It was worth every hour of groups I was a part of, every dollar I spent on counseling. It is by far the most powerful discipleship thing I've ever been a part of. And so if you're sitting there listening and you know it's in your life, you know you haven't dealt with this fully. And finally, and it's probably just a matter of time being in the wrong place at the wrong time, that something's going to happen again, what are you waiting for? The longer we wait, the longer we give the enemy opportunity to win. And I just would invite you, face this journey, dive into it, because you will always regret that you waited. You'll never regret that you faced it. And so just any encouragement I can give to say, don't wait, that's where I would end.

Well, and I would echo, face it, because you're worth it, because you're worth help and getting health and do it for your own well being. And then just secondly, I would say maybe you've gone through and you found some healing in your story. Get the seven pillars, get the Conquer series. And as a pastor, lead your congregation, men or women, through the betrayal beyond, or eight pillars or seven pillars, lead the way with your story. And I did that in our congregation and I'm telling you it healed layers of my shame. So here I am behind a microphone talking about my story, where even eight years ago I thought there's no way I would ever really do this or I wouldn't be sharing with congregations or helping in this arena because I can't talk about it. But it's not Just getting sobriety in our sexuality. It's healing our shame so we can offer our story to help others. So if you're a leader pastor, and this has been a part of your journey and you found some healing, get the seven pillars and take guys through it, or get the information and take others through it, you'll watch the transformation in your congregation, and they'll actually have more respect for you, not less respect for you. And that is. I've witnessed that firsthand, because they see courage in you that you're not afraid to own your story. And I have people just come up to me and just say, I'm praying for you, Rod. I'm excited about what God's opening up. Go for it. Our world needs this kind of help, you know? So that would be my final words of encouragement.

The only thing I would say, really, is that healing is more important than position. To really know that God is more dedicated to your healing than to your calling in ministry. So God is more devoted to you than he is your ministry money. So whether you're a pastor or not, all of us have a ministry. Whether it's, you know, nine to five accountant work or you're actually working at a church, you've got a ministry. And God's more about your healing than your ministry.

So that's money right there all day long.

Well, guys, I feel blessed, really, to have this conversation. I love both of you. You guys are awesome. And we're all pastors, and so I think it's easy for us to. To just communicate and talk. We could talk for hours and hours and hours. And so I just appreciate your time.

I'm getting a second wind, actually.

And your brevity. I appreciate it. So for anybody out there listening, if you're a pastor and you find yourself in the midst of sexual struggle, please don't isolate like Nick said, like, get help now. Reach out, press in, and address this issue. There's hope and there's freedom available. You just have to be willing to pursue it. And if you're not a pastor, your healing is just as important. The lead pastor, the pastors at your church, the leaders in your congregation, their health isn't what's most important. Everyone's health is most important. So just go out there and get it. Guys, again, thanks for your honesty, your vulnerability. I appreciate both of you guys. Thanks for doing this.

You bet.

Good to be here.

And thank you for listening to the Pure Desire podcast. If you like what you're hearing and want to keep up with the podcast, please subscribe you can also rate and review our podcast and let us know how we're doing. For more information, check out our website, PureDesire.org. you can also follow us on social media. Earedesire PDMI. Once again, that's Earedesire PDMI. We'll see you next time. Thanks for listening to the Pure Desire Podcast. For more information, check out our website www.puredesire.org. check in each week for new content on the podcast and we pray that it will help you find hope and freedom on your journey to pursue.