047 - Stories Of Healing: Ernie & Jackie Chambers

Welcome to the Pure Desire Podcast where we partner with you to bring hope and freedom on your journey to purity. Before we start the podcast today, we wanted to let you know about a new resource we have, our Stories for Women book Study. This study will take you through 20 stories of women who have been impacted by sexual brokenness. This study can be completed individually or with a small group. Whether you find yourself on a healing journey from the impact of sexual brokenness or simply want to become more aware of this growing issue, this book study is for you. As you study their stories and step into the lives of these women, may you discover encouragement and lasting hope. To order your copy of our new Stories for Women book study, visit PureDesire.org enjoy the podcast. Hey there. I'm your host, Trevor Windsor and we're so thankful you're taking time out of your day to hang out with us. I'm here with my co host as always, Nick Stumbo.

Buenos Diaz.

You know, some episodes I feel like I have to apologize and they're becoming more and more frequent.

Okay, funny story. So one time my family was on a campout and next door to us was a Spanish camp. And I'm not making this up, but every morning at 7am that was how they started Spanish camp over these loudspeakers with someone yelling Buenos dias. And we're next door going are you kidding me? So that has stuck in my head as just a great way to say good morning in Spanish.

Okay, good to know. So today we are starting a new series on the PD podcast and this series is called Stories of Healing. So these will be episodes where we talk with people who've had first hand experience with addiction or the effects of addiction or sexual brokenness and have found hope and healing. So it would be one thing if me and Nick talked each week about how this Pure Desire stuff works, but we want to be able to give those who've experienced healing an opportunity to share their stories, really in an attempt to help encourage and give hope to anyone who might be struggling. So anyone who might be listening, regardless of where you're at, we want you to know that people have experienced what you're going through. So our first guest for the Stories of Healing series is Ernie and Jackie Chambers. Both Ernie and Jackie are regional group leaders for Pure Desire. They oversee the south region area and Jackie and Ernie have been on the podcast. Jackie's been on a couple times. Ernie, this will be his second time and we're really thankful to have you guys back. Thanks for being here.

Thanks for Having us. We're really excited that we get to share our story.

Appreciate it.

Yeah. So really, this is. Since this is the first one that we're doing of this Stories of Healing series, why don't we just start with this? Can you guys give us a little bit of background? Can you tell listeners a little bit about you guys, your history, how you guys met, how long you've been married, that kind of stuff?

Well, we've been married for 34 years, and we have two grown daughters, and we live in Texas. Transplant from California. And I struggled with sexual addiction pretty much all my life at the very early age of seven. And through the years, it's infiltrated. I allowed it to infiltrate my marriage, my relationships with others, and it's brought some collateral damage to those relationships. And I had no really, place else to go. It was a struggle just to be who I thought I was. But I vastly found out that I was just somebody who was pretending to be somebody that everybody was pleased with. I wanted to make sure that I had friends and be affirmed and acknowledged. But God found a way of letting me know who I really was. And the rest is history. My journey in recovery is just a miraculous miracle.

Yeah, me and Ernie, we met at a skating rink.

All right.

Gospel skate night.

Yes. Was he during the snowball?

That's fantastic.

Yeah, he noticed me rolling around the rink.

Please tell me you have pictures.

We kind of knew each other in groups, but wasn't attracted to one another. And then he asked me out on a date, and I went. And I think I was in a place of transition because my parents decided to move to Texas and I decided to stay in California. So he came at the right time as a rescuer. And so we started dating New Year's Eve, and we got married two and a half months later, drove to Vegas and said, I do, and started our journey of marriage and was just going to make this work. So there was some red flags that I chose to ignore. And, you know, right away in our marriage, things started to go south, but not really understanding and knowing what it was and what the problem was. And so that began our journey in our marriage.

Yeah.

So what was it for you guys when this became an issue that you realized was something you needed to face and seek help for?

Well, I think it was at a fair that I had with a former friend, and I was spotted with her at a local park. And it got back to Jackie very clearly and vividly, and she approached me on it. And as I was in my mess, I denied it. And she didn't believe it, but she chose to believe it after a while. And one thing led to another. My behaviors continued to manifest themselves. And she knew that there, there was something going on, but she couldn't quite put her finger on it. And she started doing some investigating, some reading, some understanding. And she read Patrick Carnes book Out of the Shadows and discovered that this book is talking about exactly who Ernie is right now. And she told me about it, and I denied it. I said, I don't have a problem. I don't have a problem. And so one thing led to another. And then as we continue to not address the issues, my behaviors continued to manifest themselves. And when it got to a point to where we couldn't stand it, Jackie couldn't stand it anymore. Exposure took place. And I discovered I needed some help, and I needed it quickly.

Yeah, so. Yeah, so in the beginning, not knowing what the problem was. You know, when you. When couples have issues or arguments or disagreements, you know, we go talk to a pastor. And so that had been our routine. You know, when issues come up, when small exposures come up, we go talk to a pastor, they give us advice, and we go live our lives. But this thing with the affair, I believe it caused me to become bitter. And that had me go down a road of bitterness and resentment towards Ernie because I was feeling rejected by him, ignored by him. And I didn't know how to handle that no more. Because I'm the fixer in the relationship, and because I couldn't fix it, and because it wasn't bringing the results that I felt we needed for the. For our marriage, that bitterness rose up in me to where, you know, when the behavior continued and we had so many losses, you know, the job loss and financial loss, and, you know, things have started going downhill. I just gave up. And so I just said, this is it. I can't do this anymore. There's no help available out there. You got a problem, you decide to live in your problem so you can live in it by yourself.

You know, Ernie, what you shared is pretty remarkable because I think it's something that so many men and women battling with sexual addiction have experienced. And that's a level of rationalization that when we look back at it, I mean, it's almost comical. I mean, it would be comic if it wasn't in such a sad story and for hurtful reasons. But the ways we self deceive about, I don't have a problem or I can keep people from figuring out the truth. So if you don't mind. What was it specifically in your story that got you to break out of that rationalization and denial? Because it sounds like even when your wife was presented with some clear evidence of the affair, you were still living in that denial and rationalizing. So what finally broke through for you? What got you to acknowledge, okay, I'm going to own up to this?

Well, I think as I got deeper into my mess, I started allowing myself to be put in those positions of compromise to where my life was at stake, my family's life was at stake. I recall Jackie indicating that she received a letter from a female that literally threatened me and told me, hey, you know what? Get your husband's black suit ready because he's not going to be around very long. And I didn't know it at the time. And that's when we separated. And after I found out, it was very fearful. I put my family in jeopardy. I put my wife in jeopardy. And I had to realize this problem is more serious than I thought. And I had to make a change. I had to do something. But I couldn't make that decision because I was so warped in mindset. And I couldn't turn to anyone because my pastor, he would just give us this advice of, you know, pray more, read your words, stay connected to the church. But it wasn't doing anything for me, and there was no accountability. And so I was left out there in the war zone, technically by myself, and I had to make a decision. And Jackie, being that she wanted me to get the help, took the advantage of searching online and looking for help and looking for opportunity. And she was turned on to this opportunity for attending a week long every man's battle. And she told me about it and she said, this is our last hope. This is what is going to be able to help you. And if this can't help you, I don't know what will happen. And I was resentful to going there, but I figured what is more important to me and my family was at the forefront of my mind. So I decided to go. And it literally changed my life.

Yeah, well, and what you just expressed there, Ernie, was really kind of an extreme version of what pretty much everyone battling in this area has found out, that it'll take you further than you meant to go, keep you longer than you meant to stay, and cost you more than you ever thought you would pay.

Absolutely.

And you look back and no one plans to do those things, but it's that we're not proactive enough to plan not to. And we find ourselves in Those places going, how did I ever get here? And so I just. I think it's. It's great that you're able to articulate. You got to that place.

Well, Ernie, let's. Let me ask you a question. So you're saying that you went to your pastor and, you know, he said you should pray more, read your Bible more, stay connected to the church. Why didn't those work? I mean, I imagine that you tried those things and that you put time and effort into those things. Why didn't those things work for you?

Well, after observing the things that I was doing and what I was instructed to do, I noticed that I was doing it alone. I was doing it by myself. There was no accountability. There was no guidance from somebody that if I had questions, if I had got tempted or wanted to relapse, and I did, but there was nobody there that I could call, nobody there that I can go and talk to. The pastors were very busy, so they weren't as available then. And I just felt alone. I just felt like my battle with this problem was a no, no win situation. I'm either going to do it like this and succeed, or if I fail, I'm going to end up going back in my mess. So I persevered. You know, I accepted the challenge of every man's battle. I needed that. And as the week went on in that conference, it just literally, day by day, just made me see who I was, who God said I was, and what his purpose in my life was truly at the beginning of all creation. Wow.

So it seems pretty evident from your story that you guys went through a season where you were starting to take some steps, but there were still a lot of struggles. I mean, Jackie, you're getting evidence of an affair, you're receiving letters, you're reading books, you're attending a conference. Just tell us from your perspective, Jackie, what were the hurdles that you guys had to walk through on this journey to healing and freedom?

The hurdles that we had. Is. Is this really real? Is he really going to change? Because we were, you know, we were separated at the time, and. And, you know, I told Ernie to go to that conference for the sake of really himself and the children, because I was still not wanting the marriage. And so, like I said, when that bitterness and that anger came in, it was like nothing could penetrate that. And so God had to come in and really do a redemption walk in my own life. He took my focus off Ernie and he put my focus on myself and said, you know what? You need some healing yourself. There is something in you that only I could heal you. Ernie can't heal you. Even if he did everything right, you would still be the same person who was angry, who was bitter, you know, who has self righteousness. And this was what you need to get rid of. And so, you know, me working on myself and then allowing Ernie to work on himself and to be able to love him basically from a distance, to show him grace and to show him the love of God and to trust God, that he was doing something in both of our lives. So I think having that hope, just restoring hope back into our lives.

Well, and it's something that I think that we oftentimes hear from the church or we are really given false information, that when you get married, it fixes all of your problems, or it makes this problem or this issue better, that you fix each other, that you both are the tools in each other's life to help bring about sanctification, which is true. But at the same time, it's not your job to make your wife or your husband healthy. It's God's job to do that. And it's their job to work with the Lord as they move along in their process of healing.

Absolutely.

And so I think what you're getting at is that there's this misunderstanding that it's your job to fix. You know, it was your job to fix Ernie. It was your job to fix what was going on. And what you're saying, though, is that that wasn't true.

No. And I remember, I recall one time when I got that letter from that lady that, you know, she was ready to take Ernie out. I had to take it to the church for security reasons because I didn't know if this lady was going to come to the church, come to our house or whatever. So I remember talking to one of the pastors about this, showing her the letter and basically telling her, you know, I'm through with my husband. He's done all these things. And now we have this. And I remember her saying, so have you done all to save your marriage? And I was just like, floored. My. My mouth dropped to the floor because I'm like, listen here, this is not for me to fix this. I don't want this marriage. I am hurting here, and I have nobody to understand to validate my pain. You just feel like you're just in a desert wasteland by yourself, with no kind of help, no kind of understanding. You're weak, you're bleeding. And they're still saying it is your job to make this Marriage work. It is your job to. To restore your husband. And, you know, I just threw my hands up in the air. It's like, whatever. I just give up.

Yeah.

So for both of you, tell us a little bit about the moments when it really started to click. So for you, Ernie, you attend every man's battle. What did that look like for you when you realized, I've got to change and here are the things I need to do? And then for you, Jackie, I'd like to hear more. When did it click that you saw that there might actually be change in his life that could last and that gave you hope for the marriage again? So tell us a little bit about the moments where some things started to click for you guys.

Well, they began with the Everyman's Battle conference. And again, it was the most exhilarating week of my life. But then again, it was the most scariest week of my life because I encountered actual relationship with men, but godly men. And it showed me what relationship in God's eyes and perspective looks like. And I never cried more in that week than I ever had in my life. I never shared as much with another man as I did in my life during that week and with the group activity that we involved ourselves in and the sharing and the talking. I never had actual conversations with men. And during that week, every day was a conversation with several men from different nationalities, cultures, you name it. We looked at each other as God saw us. And as we left the conference, it was the most tearfulest, most passionate moment in my life. Because that relationship building week was the end of that conference. And I didn't want to leave. I really didn't want to leave. But I knew I had to go home and take what I've learned and apply it to my life. And it was a struggle. I had to make a decision if I wanted to do this and if I wanted to do this, it had to start right then and there. And when I got home, I was in tears. And I told Jackie it was the most beautiful experience in my life. And back then, I started before her and my daughters, who were 10 and 5 at the time. I started to share and disclose some of the things that I did to their mother. And I didn't know about disclosure and how that process looked or went because we never. We never addressed it at the conference. But as I began to share, it was staggered disclosure. And from then on, I would share with Jackie, day by day the things that I've done, the things that I've committed to and that's when our journey starts to take place. And the most exhilarating part of that, that week was as I began to share with my daughters and Jackie. My daughters said something to me, and they were both in agreement that as I shared and confess, they said, daddy, we love you, and we will support you and back you 100%. And I just even broke down even more. And that right there was enough to get my attention wholeheartedly and turn the corner. And that's where the turn came for me.

It's beautiful.

And for me, that was. That was the turnaround. And things didn't click right away, but I saw the determination in Ernie, and I saw that, you know, he was making amends. He was, you know, going to those he know he hurt because of his mess, which I thought was very courageous and brave of him. He did counseling. He went to counseling. He was faithful in that Ernie had did everything on that list from every man's battle, except for one thing in the beginning. And so I was just basically watching him. I was seeing him enjoy what he was doing and growing and putting things in place. And I was like, you know, ernie, I'm looking at this list, and I see you're doing everything on this list, but it's saying here that you must go to a support group. So why aren't you going to a support group? And he was so mad at me, you know, only because, you know, I know he was saying, look, I am doing everything. I'm working hard, I'm feeling good, and here you are going to just ruin it by this one issue here. And I said, well, you know what? If it's on the list, it's important. So, you know, either you go or you don't. And I think what I needed to see from him was I saw how hard he worked and what he did to sacrifice in his addiction. You know, how the lies, the deception, and, you know, the people. So if I could see you work that hard in your addiction, I want to see you work even harder in your recovery. So him going to a support group because was on that list, to me, showed me that you're taking this recovery seriously and you are working harder at it, and it means more than your mess. And so when he did start going to a support group, I did start seeing a transformation in him because he, once again, he got in groups, he got connected with relationships. He was able to be in a place of transparency, and it even helped our relationship. So basically, six months later, after our separation, we did get back together, and he still continued all of these steps. So that's when it clicked for me, when I saw that he was determined to make his recovery more than his mess.

What were some strategies, what were some things that you guys put in place when you were working on creating healing in sobriety and then that you saw also helped maintain that healing in that sobriety? Because it's not something that you just hear a great message or you go to a great conference and all of a sudden, boom, there it is, it's done, is taken care of. So really, to bring restitution is one thing, but then also to create healthy habits in your marriage and create a safe place, but then also to maintain sobriety and healing. What did you guys put into place? What worked for you guys?

I think what worked for me at that point was developing an honest, an honesty and transparent approach in my commitment and my journey for freedom. I wanted something that I had never heard of, and I learned that in that conference. And that word was accountability. I never knew what that was, but that week I learned so much about accountability. And I knew that if I was going to succeed in seeking freedom and walking in freedom, I had to have accountability. There was no way possible that I could do what I need to do without it. And as I began to allow that accountability to interact in my life and everything that I was doing, I didn't feel any condemnation. You know, I continue with one on one counseling and experience a lot of growth in my life. And I got counseling from Joe Dallas, a very good friend of mine, and he pointed out some things through counseling that I was fearful of that I didn't want to go back and address. And he helped me with those things. He took me through that, and God brought healing to that. And I believe that that was a transformation of heart, mind and spirit that I started to actually see Jackie for who she really was.

Yeah. And I think for our relationship is allowing me to see him who he really was. So, you know, those parts of himself that he may not think I would accept or believe him, he became vulnerable, he became transparent, became honest. And we, you know, had that relationship to where we had to be open with one another consistently. No matter how much it would hurt us, we needed to hear the truth from one another because we were at a place where we're not trying to shame one another. We're not going to throw things back into our face. But I really want to know the true Ernie. I really want to know this, this man that I married. I want to see your heart. I want to know what's going on on the inside of you. So, you know, just having that commun of sharing and being open and honest with one another was a big key for our relationship.

So what year was it, you guys, that Ernie, you went to the Everyman's battle conference, and this journey really began to take place in your lives.

I believe it was the year 2000, and that's when it really started and opened up. And in 2001, I went back to the Everyman's Battle and took a conference that they called a leadership conference and learning how to develop group activity. And at that point, that's when it really touched my heart to begin to work with men and support groups, to become involved and be an advocate for support group. And I really needed that. And I even developed a protocol and a group dynamic to start it at our church. But because I wasn't that far along in my recovery, my pastor wasn't ready to jump at that opportunity. And therefore, I just wrote it all out and tucked it away and prayed about it and said, God, this is my desire now. I want to help men. I know what I've been through, and I want to help others. And so I just to want put it to the side. And one day, God, I prayed that just open that door for me to start a group and to become a part of something like that.

And the beauty of that, you know, of us wanting to share, you know, with him, saying, you know, I want to do groups. What we didn't know was this assistant pastor had went to a pure desire training, and at that time, you know, they had cassette tapes of the. Of the sessions. And so he handed us all this material, all this pure desire material and these cassette tapes. And, you know, we were listening to it and going through this material, and we're like, oh, my goodness, you're talking about a fire hydrant, you know, hitting you in the face. This is what this was. But you know, what it did is it everything that Ernie went through, it verified that, and it showed that all of these components are necessary. And it is, and it's possible to have this in groups. So we just held onto that to where God opened up the door, to where we were able to start and have our own pure desire groups here in Texas. So that, I mean, that was incredible.

Well, it's pretty remarkable that you guys have been on this journey now for 17 or 18 years of walking in recovery and now helping others. As you look back at your journey, what have you found? Are some of the key elements in your lives to finding freedom from sexual brokenness.

I think discovering who I was in Christ, I didn't know my identity. I didn't know who I was in Christ. I had received Christ at the age of 16. But I just went to church. I just was seen at church. I was on the usher board. But when pastor was speaking, all of us ushers just went across the street to the liquor store, grabbed something to eat and came back when it was done. And so that was the story of my early Christian education, if you will. But. But I had to realize that God had something more for me. And when I found out who I was in Christ, the renewing of my mind and the transformation of my heart took place. And getting to know that and getting into that relationship with God and it just brought an experience of closeness, non condemnation and a life of wholeness and holiness. And I saw that and I was attracted to that. I wanted that and I pursued it.

I think that is so key that our identity in Christ. I mean, the devil fights so hard to tell us who we're not. But God wants us to share with us who we are in him and who he is and how much he loves us. And he doesn't look at our behaviors, but he looks at our heart. And our identity is not in what we did, but who he's created us to be. And I think another key is to get with people who have walked this journey also. This is not something you could walk alone. And we've walked this journey so much alone. That's why there were so many mistakes and that's why we got to a place of hopelessness. But when we got with group of people who have walked this journey as we did, and had the understanding of what addiction is and the process and where it takes us, then we were able to find healing and restoration and know that there is, there is hope in healing and our lives will be transformed. This is not just to change the behavior, but this is. God is using this journey to transform us, to make us new in Christ.

That's right.

Amen.

Yeah, it really is. It's something we found is that self awareness is such a key to finding healing and finding freedom. Like it's such an important piece that you have to figure out, you know, your background, you have to figure out what you know, what culture you were raised in, what dynamics were in your family, what you know, contributed to your addiction and to this avenue of your life. And having other people there with you is also a great way to be self aware. They're people who know you and see your tendencies and can help point out those things and help you find more clarity and really help create a roadmap for your healing. And so what you guys are talking about is something we see so commonly in this topic is that self awareness is a huge front door to finding healing. And then also if you want to maintain freedom, you have to do it in community.

Yes, exactly.

Okay, so guys, this has been already so great. I mean, I just really appreciate you guys being so vulnerable, but this is such a private and personal area for people. Not a lot of people get up, especially in the church on a Sunday morning and say, hey, this is what we're dealing with. And like just share it like that nonchalantly. Like it's just a part of their life. And so, so a lot of people are tempted to keep it to themselves. So why share your story? How did you find the courage to really be open and honest and vulnerable about this part of you guys relationship and your story?

Knowing, experiencing, and trusting God in the process, saying and just understanding what God wants to do. In my life, I have so much potential and I didn't really know it. And when God showed me what he wanted me to do and I went after it with my whole heart, it made my courage, made my enthusiasm for purity and wholeness go to the extreme levels of I can't do without it, I gotta pursue it, I need it. This is me, this is who I am. And I can't go after what was pleasurable. I have to go with my desire for God. God loves me, he cares for me and he wants the best for me, the very best. And why don't I want the same for myself? So I had to recognize that. And those experiences through that ordeal that I went through in my life made me realize that God loves me more.

Than I love myself, you know, and this, this addiction is like a cancer. It ravages the body. It, you know, it just destroys families and lives. And so we felt like we found the cure. And so, you know, when we found the cure and we saw that it healed us, it totally restored us. And when we know there's so many other people out there suffering from this cancer, so we're like, hey, we have found the cure. We know what you're going through. We see it, you know, and so we want to offer the cure for you and we want to see that restoration and hope in you and you know, for others to walk in freedom. Because this is so devastating. This was so devastating for us. And I Just if I could look back and see how, you know, we almost didn't have a marriage and what that road would have taken us down. But what God has done to bring restoration when it looked like there was no possible way, he is the cure, you know, and pure desire is part of that cure. So we just want to tell people, you don't have to walk that road. You don't have to go down there. There is healing and there is freedom. It is possible.

When I think about your daughters, I think about how their lives will be radically reshaped because of your willingness to do this and your willingness to be honest and open about it. Because if you never shared this with them, they would go through life with a totally different lens, a totally different perspective. And now they're aware that people aren't perfect. Mom and dad are not perfect. They've got struggles they have to get right. And so what you're doing is setting the stage for a healthy worldview for your kids. And so even just that, even, even just thinking about the people around you and your willingness to share could have such an impact.

You know, Trevor, Trevor, I think that you said something very powerful. I think when I shared with my daughters, who were 10 and 5 at the time, and they understood more than I thought they did. I think by sharing with them that and giving them and Jackie the blueprint of my desire to return back to my family and them what they were robbed of, I think sharing my testimony and what I went through and the pain I've caused them really enlightened their hearts. And they saw me as their father, a transparent father. And when they gave me their word that they would trust me through this and trust God, that just changed the perspective, our relationship. And to this very day, neither of my daughters have any negative interferences or, or negative thoughts of what I've done. They see me walking in healing and freedom, and they're so thankful and grateful that God transferred me to who I really am. And I'm very thankful for that.

Yeah, well, it's obvious this journey transforms all our relationships. I mean, it transforms our marriage and our parenting friendships. Even. As you guys look at the recovery that you've experienced in these last 18 years, what would you say are the primary ways that your relationships are different now than they would have been prior to healing and recovery? What's different about your marriage, your parenting? And I mean, obviously you could say everything. But what might be some of the primary things you'd say Here are the ways we've really changed in our Relationships.

Because of this healing, honesty, openness, being able to talk to Jackie and not worry about what her reaction is going to be. Anticipation. And one big word that we talked about for several years is assumption. You know, that used to be a big problem in our marriage because I'd always assume how she would react, assume what she would say, assume this, assume that. And so we had to get assumed out of our marriage and our conversation and accept each other for who we are and how God sees us.

You know, and one thing that Trevor mentioned is about that self awareness. Once we were able to recognize what's going on inside of us, our thoughts and the way we react and respond. And why? Because my view has changed because I see things with the grace of God and not as a victim. I don't have to try to protect myself. I don't have to try to say things to get Ernie to do something I want him to do. So I just, you know, we just try to love one another and through, you know, even through our little quirks and faults and stuff, but we just know that the grace of God is upon us. And so we just, it's just, you know, living by grace. And one of the things that I always ask myself is what is my motive? What is my motive for doing what I'm doing, saying what I'm saying, what am I trying to get out of it? You know, is it my will or you know, is it God's will? Am I reacting to something or am I responding, responding to it? And so what is the outcome that you know, I want to accomplish in this? So you know, we just learn how to communicate differently and our strategies are different and our purpose is different. You know, it's not as selfish. Ernie's not selfish over here and I'm not selfish over here. But you know, we're, we're all on the same team and we're, you know, going forward in the same direction. And because of that, you know, we're able to, you know, talk through those hard situations because we know that we are there for one another and there's no deception behind it and there's no self motive behind is for a together purpose of why we do what we do.

Absolutely.

So good. Well guys, as we wrap up this episode, just what. There may be people here who are listening, who are maybe just figuring out this is an issue. Maybe there are people who are listening that are right at the front end of addressing this issue. And maybe there are people who have found freedom and are looking for just any encouragement. So Anybody who's listening out there who has really experienced the brokenness that this addiction can bring, what encouragement would you give them?

I would suggest to follow and trust the process and never give up. No matter what your situation, there's always somebody's situation worse than yours. Never give up. Trust God. Trust the Holy Spirit, and believe by giving all you got to your marriage and when you have nothing left, as the Word says, stand and allow God to continue to manifest his presence, his love and his grace in your marriage, and he will transform it.

Yeah, I totally agree. You gotta trust the process. And you gotta know and trust God that He is doing a great work and have a purpose for you, you know, and your relationships. And that this is a painful journey. But we have to walk through that pain because there's something greater that he wants to show us. There's something within us that he wants to expose to us. Because if we don't have it exposed, then we can't heal from it. So we just got to take this opportunity to walk this journey. Don't walk it alone. Get those around you to help you walk it and just see where he takes you. Because trust me, you don't know what God has for you. We can't even imagine how great and how good and the things and opportunities he has for us until we start walking that journey and that health, help is available. You gotta reach out for it.

You know, Ernie and Jackie, as I hear your story, I just love the longevity you have to it that this is something that happened 17, 18 years ago and you didn't just move on and feel like, well, you know, that was a good thing. We got over it. Now we're moving on to other things, that this has become your story, it's become your testimony. It's become something you've used to help so many people. And that's exciting to me. And what it reminds me, you know, my final encouragement today is that everyone has a story of sexual brokenness in their personal lives and in their marriage. Because none of us are perfect. None of us arrived in this world perfect. We all arrived as sinners. And that means we've got a story. The question is whether it's a story of shame or a story of redemption. And if we're not able to tell our whole story fully and honestly, then it's still a story of shame. And the enemy can use it against us and to drag us down. But as we face it, as we invite God in, it becomes a story of redemption. And you guys have just continued to Tell that story of redemption over and over. And, you know, not only does it glorify God, but it helps a lot of other people. And so we're so encouraged for you, and that would be my encouragement to listeners, is just ask that question, am I still carrying a story of shame, or am I allowing God to turn it into a story of redemption? Because that's what we all want.

Amen.

This is what I'm going to say. I would say let your story see the light. Put it out there. Let people see it. Let people hear what you're going through, what you've struggled with. Find trusted people that you can share your experience with. Because if you keep it to yourself, it will always be a story of shame. If you never let it see the light, if you never invite anyone in, it will always be filled with shame. Like you're saying, Nick. And so follow suit. Like follow the suit. Even if you're not even in. You know, maybe you haven't experienced 18 years of freedom like the chambers have, but if you're even on the front end, just being honest and open with those around you, those trusted people in your community can be such a powerful tool in you finding freedom and then also creating a culture where it's just full of grace and full of people who just want to be with you because they want to be with you. Not because of who you are, what gifts you bring, but just because you're a gift by yourself. So just to be really, really open and honest about your story and, you know, don't bleed all over everybody. That's not what I'm saying. But just be honest with those around you, and your community can be really powerful.

Absolutely.

Ernie, Jackie, seriously, thank you so much for sharing your story. I know even as you guys have gone through this the last almost two decades, it's still your story. There's probably still some healing and some processing that takes place. And so for you being able and willing to just share it with us and with anybody listening is awesome. And what you're doing is you're modeling that vulnerability, and going first is so valuable. So we just really, really appreciate that. And thanks for leading the way in this. And to anyone out there who maybe is in the midst of recovery from the effects of sexual brokenness, there's hope. Jackie and Ernie are an example that healing is possible. You know, as you've heard in their story, it's not easy, it's not fun, but you'll never regret the effort put into finding freedom and finding healing. Healing from sexual brokenness. So if you want to begin your healing journey you can visit our website or just reach out, join a group or begin the counseling process. Don't wait any longer to find healing and freedom because it's possible and it's waiting for you. So again Ernie, Jackie, thank you so much. Thank you for having us and thank you for listening to the Pure Desire Podcast. If you like what you're hearing and want to keep up with the podcast, please subscribe. You can also rate and review our podcast and let us know how we're doing. For more information check out our website PureDesire.org and you can follow us on social media. EaredesirePDMI. Once again, that's EaredesirePDMI. We'll see you next time. Thanks for listening to the Pure Desire Podcast. For more information check out our website www.puredesire.org. check in each week for new content on the podcast and we pray that it's it will help you find hope and freedom on your journey to purity.