048 – Theology Of Addiction

Welcome to the Pure Desire podcast where we partner with you to bring hope and freedom on your journey to purity. Before we start the podcast today, we wanted to let you know about our new resource for men, the Stories for Men book study. Finding Sexual Integrity is Possible and going through this six week study will show you the path to lasting freedom from addiction. By studying 20 stories of men who've experienced the destruction that sexual addiction can bring, you'll begin to see the power of both sharing your story and being a part of a community who fully knows you and fully loves you. To start on the path for sexual integrity, visit PureDesire.org enjoy the podcast. Hey there. I'm your host, Trevor Windsor and we're so thankful you're taking time out of your day to hang out with us. I'm here as always with my co.

Host, Nick Stumbo, making it great.

And Nick today will be functioning as more of a guest. So he's going to be, uh, not my co host today. He's gonna be a guest with our secondary guest, which is Rodney Wright. Welcome back, Rodney.

Thank you. Glad to be here with you guys.

And by secondary, I don't mean as a matter of importance. I just mean you are our second guest on the podcast, so we're glad to have you. So in this episode today, we want to address some of the most common questions and even objections that we get when it comes to our approach to healing. So Pure Desire's approach to healing from sexual addiction and, and sexual brokenness. So we know that this ministry, and we don't claim it ever to be perfect, we're not. And we know it'd be impossible to get everyone to agree on everything. But we hope that really our conversation today can shed some light on a few of these difficult questions. We also recognize that a 30 to 40 minute podcast isn't going to answer every question. And so we really just hope that through our conversation it would just get the conversation started about theology and addiction. So we hope today as you listen, you'll get some of your questions answered and that you'll really catch the heart behind Pure Desire and what we're all about.

Well, and we're really excited about this episode because as you said, Trevor, a lot of these questions came out of questions we get at events or in email. And we just believe so strongly in the effectiveness of this material and why it can work for your church. And we feel like we don't want anyone to have a reason that they're not able to use it, which really doesn't need to be a reason. I. I mean, talking about pornography or sexual brokenness or addiction is hard enough to begin with, let alone if we get a lot of misconceptions in the way of what we think pure desire is about or our approach. And so I just really hope that today's episode clears away a lot of unnecessary hurdles so that we can really deal with the hard stuff that is in front of us. But to let the main thing be the main thing.

Yeah. Okay, guys, so let's just start with this one. And this is a big one. Can a Christian actually have an addiction? How do we know it's possible?

Well, I think that's a great question, Trevor. I think a lot of it comes down to how do we define addiction? I think for many people, they define addiction as something of degree, that the more in depth your behavior is, the more across certain lines or, you know, radical, extreme. Well, then that's an addiction. And it's easy to look at some extreme behaviors and say, well, no person could possibly be loving God, wanting to serve Christ and doing those things. But we find that addiction is so much more than that, really. Addiction is about dependence, not degree. So if there's any behavior in our life that we find that we're returning to repeatedly, even when we know that it's something we don't want to do, we've told ourselves or others we're not going to do it. And we can see a cost. We can see a price that we're paying either physically or relationally or emotionally to do that thing. Well, then whatever it is, that could be an addiction in our lives because we're dependent on it for how we function. And that could be true about pornography, but that could also be true of many, many other things that have become socially acceptable, even in churches. Things like social media use or overeating or Netflix. Yeah, being a workaholic. So we want to look into these things and just say, am I really under control of Christ alone? Or are there other behaviors in my life that have a level of control over me? And the other thing that's helpful is by addiction, we don't ever mean that. Then someone is not responsible for their choices. You know, we don't just get to throw up our hands and say, oh, I'm an addict, so don't blame me. It's like, well, no, you're still responsible for your choices. But when you understand it's an addiction, that may help you recognize why you haven't been able to stop something else that can be really Helpful. You know, we know that the human brain is designed by God. And when you really look at how our brain functions, it is wired for addiction. But when something happens to us in a healthy way that we're continually drawn towards, we don't call it an addiction. So the reality is you and I have been made to be addicted to Christ. This is something Ted Roberts told me early in my journey, that we've all been made to be addicted to Christ, but we've learned to fill that hole and be addicted to something else. And so if we can just recognize addiction isn't this rare, unique thing about degrees, but it's a common element where the human brain latches onto something as a way to make life work, then I think we really can easily see, well, yeah, just giving your life to follow Christ doesn't take away those needs for how we function, for how we do life. And so it's really. When you define it that way, then I think we see addiction as possible in anyone's life.

Yeah, it's good.

Yeah. I think that for me, one of the things I talk about, just asking the question, what is sin? I think that we're all addicted to our way of thinking. It's part of our broken condition. And so this is kind of the universal issue that we all have issues with thinking and taking on the mind of Christ and understanding how to see ourselves, God and others in a correct way. And many times those addictive behaviors are things that we're doing that can be destructive and that we are not coping well with things. Oftentimes they find ourselves in isolation. And I think it's something that we're going to really talk about and look at some of the examples of that in scripture.

You know, something that I think I see a lot of and I've even experienced in my life is the idea that Christians in the church, they believe that Jesus solves all their problems. And the only problem that Jesus really solved for me was my lack of ability to pay my way into heaven. He saved me. He rescued me out of my sin, out of my brokenness. And that's the problem he solved. And it's not that he doesn't solve or want to help me with my life's issues, but I think that far too often we think he's just going to be, you know, this pill that just solves all of our problems. Like we just ingest Jesus, and then all of a sudden our life is fine, it's great, it's dandy. And it's like, you know, if you've spent any time in a relationship with Jesus, you know that your day to day, you still sin, you still have issues, your marriage isn't perfect, you're not a perfect parent. You know, maybe you had, you know, one extra burger with lunch that you know you shouldn't have. Like, there's just so many different things in life that doesn't just get solved when you get to know Jesus. And so I think that when, you know, thinking this way is, is it possible for Christian, for a Christian to have an addiction? I think, I think the answer is obviously yes, because he doesn't just come in and solve all of our life's problems.

Yeah. And what you're talking about, Trevor, is the process of becoming like Christ. And we know that's a process. We call it sanctification. So that for every single person, there is a gap between who Christ calls me to be and who I know that I am currently. And so wouldn't it be possible that in that gap for any person could be addictive behaviors? And so hopefully when someone approaches it from that angle, they realize, oh, this is just about my sanctification. It doesn't mean I'm not following Christ, but it means I'm not yet the person he's called me to be.

Or I think many times we see what we call salvation as a transaction. There's a price to be paid. Christ came and paid it on a credit card. And that's transactional rather than the way of Jesus is transformational. It's showing us how to be transformed. He's showing us the way to live, that he is the way to live the truth of life. I mean, he, he came to show us how to do it, not just pay a bill. We know he paid it with his life, death, resurrection, and ascension. But he came to enter our condition, to show us the way of healthy relationships and restoration. That was the redemptive work that he did. And so I think we take the gospel as more hell insurance rather than helping us deal with the hell that's going on in our lives right now. By following the way of Christ when he says, I'm the way, the truth and the life, I think that's what he's saying, follow my way to my truth, watch my life. I'm the example for you to follow. And as he had the relationship with the Father, so we get invited into that beautiful dance of relationship and we can access that same power that renews our mind, that causes us to love other people, to be vulnerable and open to submission. Is a big part of breaking our addictions, because we know the root of those addictions Cause us to move toward isolation.

Yeah. So obviously, as a believer, scripture is foundational. Scripture is really where we go to get our truth, not only to understand who God is, but understand who we are in relationship to him. And so, you know, off of this first question, where do we see addiction in scripture? Like, where. Where do we see it? Is it something that we have just kind of seen now that we're so far, you know, forward in history that there wasn't addiction back there? So what do you guys think? Where do we see addiction in scripture?

Well, that's a great question, Trevor. And one of the things we want to be clear about that for pure desire, one of our core values is to be biblically based. So to us, it's not an either or question. Like, either we base our recovery on scripture, or we base it off of brain science or research. It can be a both. And. And so we're fully biblically based. You see that idea of addiction coming out in Paul's passage in romans, chapter seven. That's maybe the most common passage that people will point to where he's saying, why do I do what I don't want to do? You know, the things that I. That I do want to do, those things I don't do. And the very things I don't want to do, I find myself doing. And he wrestles with it. And sometimes people have tried to look at that and kind of turn it into, well, that was just his past self, and he came to Christ and surely was different. But you really look. There's some intentional places. In Romans 7, Paul's using the present tense. He's saying, this is my challenge. What a wretched man I am. Who will save me from this life? And. And obviously the answer is Christ. But we see him giving the full answer of that in Romans chapter 12:1 and 2. It be transformed by the renewing of the mind. And what's Paul referring to by the mind? That that's not just some incarnate man, the soul part of us. But it's what we would now come to understand in our modern terminology of the part of our brain that does understand our will and our emotions and our intellect, that that part of us needs to be transformed through a relationship with Christ, that daily bringing ourselves to him, dying to ourselves, that we are transformed. There are several passages, too, that I look at in the old testament as examples of addiction. I know we only have the one story of David And Bathsheba. But obviously that's a pretty extreme example of David violating all kinds of laws and covenants that he knew to be right between himself and God. And I always ask the question, did David just have a bad day? Like this guy that's sitting around writing the psalms and parts of the Bible that we all love, just one day he woke up and was kind of off kilter and ends up in an affair and killing the husband. Like, I don't buy that. I think you can look into David's life and see he was not even invited to the king making ceremony by his own father. He was disregarded there. Later on, he's disregarded by his father in how he's being sent to the front lines just to carry them cheese and bring back messages. Like he's continually in his story being put down and looked down. You can just see how there developed in his life this need to medicate that pain, to live with that stuff. And I think the reaching out for Bathsheba, it was the example of addictive kind of issues that David had. Now we don't have his whole life story, so I don't want to definitively say that, but I think you definitely see elements of addictive behavior in something that was so out of character for him. I think another person connected to David was King Saul, the king before David, that you can see throughout his story, an addiction, I think, to power and control. That at first he was trying to avoid it because of the fear. And fear often drives addiction. And then once he became king and had power, the number of things he did that again violated the covenants he knew were right, what he should be doing, but he had to have that control in front of his men and his army. So those two stories, and then the third in the Old Testament, prophet of Hosea, where God gives that biblical example of what Israel is like and how Israel keeps running back to her false gods. And. And that's exactly what Gomer does in that book where Gomer as the wife of Hosea, had everything in that culture that she needed. She had Hosea's protection, his identity. She had financial stability. She had no reason whatsoever to leave Hosea, except that there was this addictive part of her mindset that took her back to her old lovers, to her old way of life. But the awesome thing about Hosea, how it also shows us God's heart towards the addiction. Because what does he say to Hosea? He says, go and find her. Go and redeem her. Go and bring her back. She's your wife. And he restores to her identity and dignity, covers her shame. And that's, I think, really meant to be a picture of God's heartbeat for those that continue to run back to addictions, that he's there to redeem us, to cover us and to stick with us until we get out of that lifestyle.

Yeah, yeah.

I think that. Nick, your passage. There are great examples, Old Testament and new, but I think Romans 7 is pretty clear where Paul really just says the things that I don't want to do, I end up doing. And the things that I know to do right, I don't do. And he talks about this war that's within him. It's pretty interesting how candid Paul is. And he's very open about that, that when the church becomes open about our struggle, this is where in people's minds and hearts, because they see us as normal people. It's not us versus them, it's all us. We're all in this condition and in this struggle. And all we're saying is Christ is here to help us and to guide us, show us the way and these authentic relationships that we're called to and non condemning relationships. You know, it's in Romans 8 where he says, so now there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. I mean, I think that's the beauty of Christ. It says, come to me just like you are. And. And that authenticity and honesty when we find that in healthy relationships. I think this is the power of recovery movements breaking denial and helping people realize that there's hope and healing. And for us, we believe God is the source of that and we see God clearly and who Jesus is. And so this is, you know, this is moving that way. And I think that scripture really encourages us to understand that relationship and to be in those kind of relationships. That's where the healing's found.

Yeah. So when addressing the topic of sexual addiction at Pure Desire, we are really focused on both a biblically based foundation and a clinical approach to getting healthy. And so I think one of the things that we run into a lot or questions that is asked is are you saying that Jesus isn't enough to break addiction? Like, why can't I pray more, love Jesus more, read the Bible more, listen to worship music more. Why can't that work? So let me just ask you that. Why isn't it just a love Jesus more type of issue?

Well, I would answer this question of that again. Jesus gave us this example that we were meant, we were hardwired for authentic real relationships. With one another. And sometimes we think that if it's just Jesus and I alone in a room or praying, we move toward isolation. I think what's the most healthiest reflection of my relationship with God is what's the health of my relationship with my family, with my wife, with my friends, with people that know me. And are those relationships healthy? If they are, and they're real and authentic, I think that is what the reflection of my relationship with Jesus looks like. It's never meant to be just this isolation. Jesus and I alone. So Paul says, how can you say you love God but you hate your brother? There's a disconnect in that. So I think sometimes when we're understanding the way of Jesus, you know the scriptures that say, confess your faults one to another and pray for each other and the encourage one another. The way of God is the Trinity, Father, Son and Spirit. They're relational and they invite us into that relationship. And so I think when relationships are working at their best, I think this is when we're really following the way of Jesus. Living with forgiveness of ourself and others, not having condemning relationships, but healthy relationships that bring out the best in us. And sure, we have to take responsibility for our actions and there are consequences for our actions. We're not saying any of that. It's not cheap grace, but it's a safe place to be real and honest. And I think that many recovery groups, or the pure desire structure of safe groups, this is what helps people really find healing. And I think that is the way of Jesus.

Yeah. And it's interesting to me that I don't know anyone that would say to an alcoholic, you just need to love Jesus more. Yeah, Jesus can set you free, he can break the addiction. But we'd also say there's patterns that need to be addressed, environments that need to be changed, emotional processing that you need to rewire. And so treatment's probably a really good thing along with the love of Jesus. And that doesn't negate the love of Jesus. It's just to recognize that Christ may need to lead you through a process of healing.

Yeah. And Nick, wouldn't you say it's not just loving Jesus more, but it's understanding how much Jesus loves you and learning to love yourself like Jesus loves you. Right. So it's not just something that we do to love Jesus more, but it's understanding God's love for us and God's love for other people as well.

Right. And how will we understand that love for ourselves if we've got all these other factors or things that get in the way of that.

Exactly.

So we think about recovery is about understanding how to face pain in our lives, how to face the trauma and not avoid it. So that means freedom is more than just not sinning. That freedom will be a confidence and a peace to face the pain or difficulty in our life without needing to run to our old behaviors. And that's something I believe Christ wants to teach us as we learn to trust him. Whereas if he just, you know, we prayed to Jesus and he magically fixed it, we wouldn't actually learn how to face the trauma or pain in our life any differently. So God wants to take us through a healing process that is just as much about Christ, if it takes a year and it takes community and learning to love others and love ourselves than if it happened in a moment. The other thing I do find interesting, when we talk about other ways that people change in the church, we wouldn't tell someone that the answer to evangelizing better is love Jesus more. We'd say, well, yeah, love Christ with all your heart. But you could probably learn a couple of techniques and how to share your testimony. You know, if someone said, I'm really struggling to pray very much, we just say, well, you just need to love Jesus. No, we'd probably direct into some books and some mentors and how they can develop a discipline of prayer. So in all these things, teaching and preaching, it's not about loving Jesus more. You need to train in seminary and learn the Bible. And so this is one more area, if we're battling with sexual brokenness, that, yes, we need the love of Christ, we need to internalize it, walk in it. But there are so many other tools that need to be added to experience freedom. So it's not, again, an either or, it's a both and, well.

And something I think that's important to also identify is that what you see more common than not is not someone coming forward and saying, you know what? I just decided to love Jesus more. And then everything got better. Like, it'd be one thing if that was the dominant, you know, the force that was. That was happening. Like, if we saw a bunch of people coming forward and saying, well, I just started to read my Bible, and all of a sudden, you know, my porn addiction or sex addiction went away, then that would be one thing. But that's not what research tells us. That's not what we see. That's not what happens with the demographic we work with. We work with people who have real, real issues. And Real problems and real stuff that goes on all the time. And they've tried to love Jesus more. They've tried the approach and all. I think all three of us sitting here right now, we would say the same thing. We've tried that. And it just doesn't practically work because of, you know, the issues you guys are talking about with trauma and with.

Shame and with all of isolation.

Absolutely.

If I do it by myself, I'm not going to be very successful.

Yeah. And that's just not the way that it works out. And I'm not saying, let me say this. I know that there are people who have been healed on the spot by things. I'm not saying that God's not capable of that, because he absolutely is. And I believe that wholeheartedly that God can do that and does do that. I just don't see that being a pattern with most people that I run with, that I've been in relationship with that. It's more of a process than them having to put work in. Okay, guys, so let's kind of switch from. So now that we understand that Christians can have addiction, we see some of that in scripture. And then, you know that we also understand that it's not just a love Jesus more type of issue. You know, another thing that I think the church really teaches is that confession is really important. So being honest, being vulnerable. But, and I know, Nick, a little bit of this is in your story, the idea of confession. But why isn't just confession just bringing your sin into the light? Why isn't that just enough to solve this problem?

Yeah, I think it's important that we ask the question, is confession the end goal or is it the starting point? And I learned as a Christ follower that confession was the end goal. You know, confess your sins and you will be healed. And so I had learned to confess as well as anyone and in as many environments because I really believed if I just confessed with enough sincerity and well enough, I would be free. But what I would find is confession was a way to step into the light, spill all my stuff. But then I'd end up stepping back into darkness and isolation. But if we really look at James 5, you know, James 5 is addressed to people that had a very different view of community than we do, that living in community and staying in the light is a big part of what they were about. And so also if you look at James 5, you see that he doesn't say confess as like a one time, get it over and done with. It's really the better English word would be confessing our sins. This ongoing perpetual act of staying in the light, staying in a place of community, that allows me then to address these issues in my life. And so if we can see confession that way, this is the opening of the door and starting into a way of life, then we're going to be far more successful. So confession is an endpoint in that it brings forgiveness. We confess our sins to Christ and others, and they can pronounce forgiveness. And in a moment, we can experience that forgiveness. But that doesn't mean the work is done. The work is only just beginning. We're now walking in a path of staying in that place of freedom and of openness.

Yeah. And I would say being a confession expert, I've done a lot of it over the years. I really realized where I didn't want just confession or even accountability, I wanted integrity. So how do I learn to integrate my faith into all areas of my life? Not just confess to relieve guilt. Yeah, or, or, or the shame that I feel. And so I think what you say, Nick, about confess and then retreat, this is why in our Seven Pillars group are the women's groups. We stay in the light. The community helps you stay in the light. And when you're in that light continually, you're not just learning how to confess every week like it's, you know, thumbs up or thumbs down. Was it a good week or bad week? But what are you doing to retrain your brain? What are you doing to apply the way of Jesus? And what does that look like? And in the community piece, I think that's one of the missing elements. So many good people in churches love God, don't want what they're at, but they just don't have the tools and resources to know how to retrain their brain and what the scripture means of transferring or transforming our minds, our lives, we think. And so this is where it's more than just confession, but it's learning really what's happening in your life, what are the traumas behind the addiction? And there's so many great resources that can help us move to a better place than just the binge purge of confession.

Right.

And what you guys are talking about is there's a difference between bringing your sin into the light and living in the light. I think that what we see in group, that's really the whole idea of pure desire groups, is so that you would be living in community, you'd be living in the light rather than sitting in your dark corner every week and then only revealing pieces or Parts of your sin into the light that you feel comfortable sharing that week. No, no, no, no. There's no dark corners anymore. Like you are living in a room that is well lit and that you're in a community that sees all of your junk and mess and still loves you for it. And that, honestly, guys, that's been my favorite part of group is learning how broken I am, but how loved and accepted I still am in that brokenness. Not by just Jesus, because I know that he loves me, but then I practically experience that love through the members of my group and who are right in that lit up room with me.

Well, this is where scripture says that we are the hands and we are the feet of Christ. I mean, this is where we do experience God in the spirit that lives in each one of us. And that's the beauty of the body of Christ. That's the relationships that we're called to.

Okay, guys, so like we kind of talked about earlier, Pure Desire's approach is both biblically based and clinically informed. And so we have brain and neuroscience. We have an understanding of some clinical tools and approaches to really addressing shame and trauma and the things that have gone on in, in life. And I know even from my experience, I'm sure you guys have had the same experience. The church tends to be really hesitant or very sensitive when it comes to extra biblical or non biblical approaches to healing. And so I think that, you know, the question I want to ask you guys is where does the power of Jesus fit into this clinical approach, the brain, science, all of that? Where do you see us being dependent on Jesus in this process?

Well, I would say that truth is truth no matter where it's found. So we believe that the Scripture helps us shed light on people's perceptions of God. And we see ultimately in what God's like in Jesus so clear we recognize that not all truth in the universe is found in one book called the Bible. So what they're discovering a lot of times in the neurosciences and how the brain works, it's beautiful that some of that confirmed in scripture or we can see that those truths really are coming together hand in hand. And so this is where the clinical approach, it's not so much is everything biblical, but what's truth and understanding that Jesus is showing us what truth is and leading us down that pathway.

Yeah, and I totally agree with that, Rodney. I think the question has to be asked, does, do we believe that faith and science are incompatible? Because if someone listening really believes faith and science are incompatible, there's probably not much we can say to change their view or help them combine these two. But if, on the other hand, we have an approach to science that says science is only revealing the beauty and ingenuity and genius of God's creation. Yeah, that everything we learn about the brain, everything we learn about human behavior, we are understanding God's created work, and we're starting to expose the impact that sin and fallenness have had on us. And so if we have that kind of both and approach where we can see, yeah, I'm learning from science, but it's revealing God's truth and it's backing up what's in his word, then we can look at an approach that does combine those two things. An example of that would be what the Apostle Paul says in his book to the church in colossae, in Colossians 1, at the end, he's talking about his desire to preach Christ. And he says, I work very hard as I depend on the Holy Spirit that works in me. And I always ask the question, well, so who is it? Is it Paul's work or is it the Holy Spirit's work? And the answer in that verse is, yes, Paul is working very hard as he depends on the Spirit of Christ. And so if some were to say, well, is this brain science, or is it about trusting what God's doing in our life? Well, yes, we're seeing how the two can work together to create some effective healing. And so how does Jesus work in that? I think a great example of that is John, chapter 4. Jesus encounters a woman at a well, and he learns all or he knows all about her history. Because he says to her, you know, you've had five husbands. The man you're living with now is not your husband. And I think it's no mistake that then the conversation they're able to have is very redemptive in her life. Why? Because Jesus knows all about her history, which we would say in some ways that's like the clinical approach that someone comes in, they kind of unfold and unravel their whole life. And when all that is laid bare, then we're able to speak the truth of Christ into their journey in a way that actually means something. Because I think if Jesus had just met this woman, for example, and said, I am the Christ, and she'd be like, well, you don't know me. You don't know my stuff. What does that mean? But because it was clear to her, this man knows everything about me, when he started to speak a true word, it changed her life. And in my view, that's kind of the combination of what happens in a clinical process. Someone is able to encounter Christ in ways they couldn't if they hadn't entered into that process.

Yeah, you know, it's interesting, as you guys are talking, I mean, the idea of the counselor that Jesus is referred to as a counselor, someone who comes alongside and helps and shepherds and guides somebody on the process of not only getting into relationship with him, but also continuing and growing in that relationship. And, you know, I think that one of the common reasons why people may be turned off to a neuro, you know, neuroscience or a clinical approach is they feel like we're adding to Scripture. And what I've seen, and this has been my experience with pure Desire, is that it's not adding anything. It's taking biblical truths and applying them practically. And I think that, you know, can someone take scripture and apply it wrongly? Sure, that's very possible. And I think it happens every day in our lives. But what we're seeing is that these tools are based on really solid biblical foundation and truth that we see consistently in scripture. And it's a way to apply it to your life that's redemptive. Because I think that what we see in this is really our identity gets wrapped up in our addiction. And I think that if you look at the writings of Paul in the New Testament, you see that he starts with who you are in Christ. And then here's how you apply it. It always has to start with the foundational piece of redeeming in your own mind who you are in your relationship with Jesus. And what's awesome is that then Paul says, okay, now here's the truth, right? You have it, now go apply it. And so that really, the clinical approach that we take with pure desire is exactly that. Trying to take the truth of who we are in Christ, what we see in Scripture, and practically apply it in a redemptive way when it comes to our identity.

And I think, Nick and Trevor, that God will never violate our will. So we, you know, it's. It's. He'll never just make us do anything. So this is where it's the Holy Spirit's promptings, leadings, guiding, and our willingness to take those steps of faith, to trust, to seek help, to apply tools, to learn new information, to be guided. It's not like we just. It's beautiful when we submit our will to God, but that's our part. And I think, Nick, that's where you were going back. Where is it the Spirit or Is it Paul or is it both? It is both. And that was one thing in my. My therapist really helped me see. Rod, God's not going to do this for you. He will empower you. But you're going to have to take the steps to learn how to retrain the brain. You're going to have to understand where you're at in your addictive cycle. You're going to have to do commitments to change. You're going to have to learn how to create a new, healthy cycle. And the Holy Spirit will help you. You're not going to be alone in this. And this is where the community of faith really, if we become that model, that's where we can really bring healing to people's lives. I think in a much more exponential way that it's a discipleship process now, not just go see a therapist in that sense.

Yeah. So, guys, one of the things that we do from that clinical approach is we address trauma. We address wounds from our past or wounds that we have experienced in life. And, you know, I think that the concern comes like, am I just dragging this stuff out? Am I just regurgitating and rehashing all of this old stuff that's gone into my life that just is so hurtful? And so the whole idea, if we are truly made new in Christ, why does any of our past trauma matter?

Well, I think it matters because in our past trauma, it diminishes our ability to trust, to have bond, to bond or attach with other people. So I think that's why it matters, because we were made for those healthy relationships. Trauma keeps us from having those. So it keeps us living in fear. It keeps us living in shame. And when we. Sometimes we can't get through that unless we face that trauma head on. And when you cannot face it alone because it seems so scary and overwhelming, but in a loving, supporting community, then you can actually find healing from the trauma.

There's a great C.S. lewis quote in his book the Great Divorce, where he talks about when a problem has gone wrong, that the only way to fix it is to work your way back to where the problem started and fix it there and then work forward. And I think that's a great principle because what happens in our lives when there's trauma or wounds is they create lies. And that lie has made its way forward into our life. And if we simply try to change the way we live and behave differently, but we don't go back to where the lies and some of the wounds started and work it right from there, it's really difficult to make progress. And so if trauma is at the root of our lies, then when we deal with that trauma, we're dealing with the roots of our problems. If we're only dealing with the outcomes. That's like cutting off a weed above the surface, but then continually it comes back and we have to cut it off again, and it grows back, cut off again. Well, every gardener knows the way to deal with weeds is you got to get the roots. And that's what trauma and wounds is all about. It's getting to the roots of where do the lies come from, where do the misconceptions about our identity and our value come from? And replacing those lies with truth so that then that truth begins to work its way out in our life. And when that happens, you know, then we're being made new in Christ because the lies have been exposed and we're really able to hear his truth in the places we need to hear it most.

Well, and what you guys have been talking about too, though, is that God's not just going to uproot those things for us. It's got to be a partnership. So he's going to help us, show us, reveal those things in our lives. Like, hey, man, this is a part of your life that you've got some wounds in. Like, here are some. You know, whether he brings some stuff back to memory or you're in, you know, relationships that bring up and hash out these old traumas. God's gonna reveal those things to you, but then you, in partnership with the spirit, have to address them. And gosh, guys, I wish. I wish it was as easy as God. Can you just uproot all my problems and take care of them and be like, sure, man, no problem. Boom. And then it's done. But not a single day of my life has been that way. And so what I know to be true is that God wants me to put in the work because that's where I'm sanctifying. I'm becoming more like him as I process through it. And that's where I continue to be in stronger relationship with him, because it's a partnership. So I think that what you guys are getting at, though, is the reason why trauma is important, is it does help us understand our relationship with Christ. But then it has to be that partnership, us working together as we process through that stuff.

Yeah, and also, Trevor, this God isn't distant, far and removed, hoping we get it together. This is the beauty of the incarnation of Christ, that God actually took on flesh. That God is empathetic understands the traumas and hurts and betrayals and what we go through in life. There's not a single thing that we face that he doesn't understand. That's the beauty of the message of Jesus, that this God isn't. Jesus didn't come to save us from God. Jesus came to show us that God is Savior, that God has come to help us and understands. And this is the beauty to me of a savior that's empathetic and that understands. And it will go right back into those traumas with us and remind us that we're not alone in facing this. And when we see that in one another, that's. I think that's where their healing really is.

Well, and one of the big challenges for some listeners might be they don't feel they have wounds or have trauma. And that's very common because we have kind of a narrow definition of trauma that is only the extremes like rape or being in a war or a famine. But if we could change our definition, that trauma comes anywhere our life experience was less than what God intended for us in his perfect garden. In other words, anywhere that fallenness might have created issues, whether it's being ignored by a parent or overlooked. There are a host of things that could have created woundedness in us. And we come to that place of seeing everyone's encountered some wounds or some trauma that's led to lies in their life. That's where we really begin to unlock people's stories. So we've got to help re. Educate the church in some ways of what is a wound or what's trauma. Because we've tried to tell people, oh, you know, you don't have wounds. You're not broken.

Right.

We need to acknowledge we are broken. And that's not to blame people or say we're all horrible, but it's just to acknowledge we grew up with some places where Christ hasn't yet redeemed and when he can speak truth there. It's a real game changer.

Yeah, yeah.

I think we talk about neglect or abuse or lacks or wax. I think those are the terms that are used. Big T trauma or little T trauma. Nick. I think that's what you're saying, that we're all subject to it. You know, what's. We're all affected by those.

Yeah. Okay, guys. So another thing that we talk about a lot is triggers or some things that arouse us. So the things that really kind of fuel the fire in our addiction. And one of the things that we talk about in group and in our resources is that we need to identify those things. So my question to you guys is, why can't we just ignore those things? Why can't we just deny it? Don't worry about it. Don't think. Think about it. Why do we have to identify what triggers and arouses us?

Well, what we're basically saying there is, why not just bury it? And my question would be, do buried things get better? And in general, buried things don't. They decay, they get worse. They stay there. They're unaddressed, they're still there to be dealt with. And that's the reality. When we're talking about triggers or things that might cause lust in us. The way that they get dealt with is by being exposed to the light. And I find, you know, in every group that I've led or been a part of, guys are always nervous to share those things, Particularly because there have been such messages of shame wrapped around them where a voice is saying, you are so gross for desiring this, or you're so wrong that you like these things. But when they're able to get it out in the open and other men affirm them and say, wow, thanks for sharing that. So proud of you. Or they hear other men share similar things, not only do they get the thought out into the light, where, as we know from scripture, in the light, it loses its power. Suddenly what seemed powerful and attractive, it just changes it. It's like, oh man, I'm seeing it in a new way. And it's not as attractive. But also that message of shame that's been wrapped around it gets dispersed as well. And so all of this energy that's there to create the lust and the sin when it's buried is still there. But when it comes into the light, yeah, we might have to think about it, but we're thinking about it in the right context because it's part of who we are. I mean, we are sexual beings. God made men and women sexual beings. So to act like we don't have thoughts or desires or triggers is denying our sexual identity. But when we deal with them appropriately, they can be empty to their power so that then we're able to honor Christ in our thinking.

Yeah, I think that's it helping us see the lies that some of those triggers are causing us to believe. And when you bring them into the light, then others can help you see the lies and bring you into that truth.

Well, it's the idea of self awareness too. I mean, if you think of the way that we grow in a Relationship with Jesus is we become more aware of our sins. And you know, I've heard some people say this, and I've experienced this in my life too. The older I get, it's not that I become, you know, so much holier every day. It's that I become more aware of my sin and quicker of repenting, you know, to the Lord. And so it's not that I'm not becoming more holy, but that it's not that all of my problems are going away just because I'm working on them. It's. I'm becoming more aware of where I struggle in life and how to handle those things in a healthy way.

Well, and the other really cool thing is that a lot, when we see that a lot of our triggers are actually connected to emotions, it's not just that I saw something triggering or had a triggering thought, it's that I had a triggering thought because I had a feeling. So for example, a man might be feeling worthless, which suddenly they're feeling drawn to this old fantasy. Well, you can spend a lot of time fighting the fantasy. Or what if you recognized, oh, I was feeling worthlessness, where was that worthlessness coming from? And how could I address that? And when you begin to address and deal with the emotions that are behind the triggers, that's where triggers really start to change. Because now we're changing the right thing. The trigger is only like the warning light of the emotion. And it's to stop and say, well, let's deal with the emotion. And then how can I bring that to Christ?

Yeah. Okay, so moving to the next question, guys. So Paul in Second Corinthians says this. He says to take every thought captive to Christ. So if a guy is trying to do that, if a guy is struggling to try to figure out what does this look like in my life, what would you guys, what is, what is Paul talking about in regards to everything we've talked about so far? What is Paul saying when he says take every thought captive to Christ?

Well, I think it's just about that self awareness piece that you touched on earlier about nizing the lie. Just because we think a thought doesn't make it true. Sometimes we believe lies and then they've become thinking errors that we've continued to believe over and over, over. And we have to kind of come to the place of recognizing. Is that a true thought or a false thought? I. I'm a failure. Everything I do is wrong. I'm never good enough, whatever those are. And then because of that, I just want to change How I feel, therefore I, I'm. What's the word? Subject or I'm susceptible to maybe a sexual temptation because that changes how I feel in the brain. This is where the connections happen. And this is again, I'm going to sound like I'm beating a drum, but this is what's so good about the material in the seven Pillars group because we take you back through understanding how to evaluate thoughts and how to look at the lies behind those. And this is a part of what we do in the faster scale and our commitment to changes and the workbook that we go through about learning how to do that, how to be self aware and how to catch yourself in stinking thinking and what is true and then what behaviors would reinforce what is true about us?

Well, and we have those in every, every one of our resources we have that. And that's something that is a, is a staple in our resources.

Well, I think we really need to underscore the idea that having the thought doesn't make us lustful, having the thought doesn't make us evil. And I really believe that's happening for many, many men and women that want to follow Christ is. Something pops into their head and then it's shaming. Oh, how could I even think that? What's wrong with me? It's like, well, you're a human being, you're a sexual being. And so just because it popped into your head doesn't mean you wanted it, looked for it, entertained it. It's, you know, it's like Martin Luther said 500 years ago, I can't keep the birds from flying over my head, but I can keep them from building a nest in my hair. And so the thoughts might come and rather than shaming or guilting ourself over it, just let the thought take you to Christ. To be able to say, Christ, that's not who I am. Thank you that you've made me to honor you. Something really simple and quick that just when a thought pops in, we use it as a reminder of our dependence on Christ and our need for community as opposed to then entertaining it and then edging further towards it. That's when it becomes a problem and a stronghold is we start to give it more and more room. So it's just about right away when those thoughts pop in. Don't shame yourself, but use it as an opportunity to go to Christ instead.

And going to Christ may mean going to another brother or going to another sister, depending on what group you're in, and saying, hey, here's here's what thoughts hit me today. I'm a little overwhelmed. And again, that's where we. That community is where we find healing.

And I think it's important, guys, just to say this. One of the things that you both have touched on is the importance of community. And I think that if you're talking about Jesus being the model, looking at his life, he always was hanging out with people. Jesus on a couple occasions went away by himself to spend some time with the Lord during his temptation, that kind of thing. But his life was functioning in community at high speeds. And so I think that just to bring attention to that, that Jesus in that way is an example as well, that isolation is not a place we want to be, guys. So if a spouse. One of the things that really is important in this process is forgiveness. And so if a spouse has confessed their sin or their addiction, shouldn't they just be completely forgiven right then and there? Like, why do people, you know, face consequences? That's one of the things that we talk about, is that you will have to face consequences from your addiction. So where does grace fit into that?

I think it's a great question because we've sometimes been trained that that's how forgiveness works. That if someone confesses something, I just. I immediately pronounce forgiveness because, well, Christ forgave me of so much, so I should forgive. And there is a sense in which, yes, if our spouse or someone, a Christian brother, sister, confesses to something, that forgiveness will need to be offered. But we want to recognize there's a danger to premature forgiveness, that when we're just saying words because we feel like we have to, versus actually letting it come from the heart because we've been able to process and think it through and understand what we're pronouncing in the forgiveness, then it becomes a lot more powerful. And what we want to recognize is that when someone's trapped in this kind of behavior, many times they're looking for forgiveness just to get out of the pain, like, just to make it better and go away, like, blah, here's everything I did, now you forgive me. And they just want to move on when really that's not the best thing for them. The best thing for them is to actually feel the weight of their behaviors, of how it hurts their spouse, and to have some natural consequences actually can be what propels them towards change. And so even in scripture, we see that forgiveness doesn't automatically deliver us from natural consequences in this world, that God allows us to be disciplined. God allows us to face the consequences of our decisions. Even though eternally and in heaven we're forgiven and he'll never hold it against us. But that's not a get out of jail free card in this life that there still may be things we have to do to repair a relationship. And to me, that's the biggest distinction is the difference between forgiveness and restoring of trust or restoration. Those two are not simultaneous activities, nor are they the same thing. So forgiveness may happen fairly quickly, but restoring trust may be a long process. And so someone walking through natural consequences may be a very significant part of them rebuilding trust.

Well, I would say that forgiveness is a tool that we use to help us deal with anger, bitterness, and that forgiveness isn't a state of emotional feeling. So I would kind of see it this way. When Jesus was asked, how often should I forgive? Seven times a day, and he said seven times 70, he wasn't saying that when you get to 490 or whatever the math is, you can stop. He was saying, choose forgiveness all the time. Because forgiveness is what helps you get rid of that anger and bitterness rather than living in that state. So that thought of, I think we confuse anger and forgiveness. If I have anger, I haven't forgiven. I don't necessarily agree with that. I think anger is because I've been hurt, I've been violated, someone broke trust. That anger is justifiable. Forgiveness is what helps me deal with the anger. It's the tool that I use to let that go. God, I'm giving them up to you, God. I choose forgiveness instead of bitterness. And forgiveness, I see is much more a tool than a state of mind that somehow wipes out all consequences or somehow says, I'm never going to have negative emotions because I forgiven. I think that's just a distorted view of what forgiveness is. I think that's why Jesus said 7 times 70. Just keep choosing it because it's the way that's going to keep you to live a better life so you don't become embittered by, by others decisions that they've made to hurt you. So this is an interesting one, I think, just about. Of course, it doesn't keep them from consequences or it doesn't mean we have to completely restore the relationship. It's a tool that I believe we use that keeps us to deal with anger and bitterness.

Yeah, that's good. Okay, guys, so if someone has listened to this podcast and they've made it thus far through the episode, and they still have theological or biblical reasons why they struggle with our approach or our perspective, how would you guys Encourage them to handle that.

Nick stumbouredesire.org it's the wrong email, but good job.

Perfect. Thank you. Keep giving out that one for those kind of questions.

Well, I think probably. I mean, I don't know if you want to record this, Trevor, but, you know, I think people just are so theologically heavy that we're not even focused on relationships and how we're doing in society. So I think that, you know, whether or not the church can or cannot be addicted, just look at the church in America and look at some of the statistics that have come out of Josh McDowell study or some of the studies that have been done. So, I mean, you know, I went to school with a famous tele evangelist back in the 80s that was traveling the world proclaiming the love and grace of Jesus and at the same time struggle with sexual addiction. So sometimes I think we can get all tangled up in our theological positions. And that's why there's 30,000 different Christian denominations worldwide. The reality is, the way of Jesus should be. We should be the most healthy, loving, Christlike, redemptive lovers of humanity, wanting the best in people's lives. We should be the most attractive by the way we're living, not just what we're saying, but by this sign, will all men know you're my disciples, that you have love one for another. Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength, and love your neighbor as you love yourself. That all comes out of relationship with yourself and others. And I think that it kind of to me, goes back just to how we see the teachings of Jesus. Who was He? What did he claim, and what was the path that he led us to follow?

Well, as I think about people that maybe struggle with something they've heard from pure desire, first of all, I'd want to just thank them for listening this far to maybe something they don't agree with. That's really awesome. But then a couple of things. I would encourage them to think through three layers. Number one, determine if your disagreement matters. The reality is I don't agree with myself 100% of the time. I look back at things I wrote a year ago and I'm like, yeah, I'd say that different now. And so if we're looking to be 100% aligned with any ministry, I mean, let's just say it, it's not going to happen. But if it's around more peripheral issues to be like, yeah, you know, I can live with that because it's really not that important, then the second thing I would just encourage someone to look at is to say, is this really a theological issue? Is it really about God in the Bible, or is it more about my philosophy or denominational uniqueness or how our church would approach something that's different because again, we're all going to have differences. So if it really is a theological issue, let's talk theology. But if it's approach or denominational uniqueness, like, well, we can't align 100% there. And then the final thing I would encourage someone is to ask a hard question of why am I struggling with this? Is it a possibility that part of the reason I don't like what I'm hearing is because it would be inconvenient? For example, if I'm willing to agree that Christians can have an addiction and I might have an addiction, then I'm also admitting I may need some serious help and might need to do some serious work to get free. So it's more convenient just to say, oh, I don't believe in addiction. Well, that's convenient. So if we can acknowledge maybe I'm disagreeing because it just wouldn't be convenient, that can help us open up some honest conversations. So, and if, you know, someone asks those three questions and says no, it's definitely theological and it matters, and it's not just about convenience, well, you know, then maybe the Lord's leading you towards someone else and we want to just say, hey, there's a lot of people that do what we do and we love you, but we're sorry that we weren't able to align because we, we really see that what we do is effective and we'd love to have a. Have you be a part of it.

Yeah. Okay, guys, so we're going to end this episode with the question that we really ask every time. So when it comes to understanding theology and addiction, when it comes to understanding this topic and how it relates to who we are and our relationship with Jesus and how that all works together. What would be your final advice or any, any encouragement you give to listeners?

Well, don't let your theology keep you in denial that you may have a problem problem and interpret all scriptures and all theology the lens of Jesus, because God is exactly like Rabbi. That helps you interpret the text and follow the way of Jesus.

Yeah, that was great, Rodney. I would just echo that of don't allow a personal objection to maybe keep you from something God has for you. And so really take some time and just with God, with others that you trust, wrestle through some of these topics and ask The Lord. What do you want me to do next? What's our next step? And if there's a way that you're being invited to lean into this area, whether for yourself or your church, I just want to encourage you to go for it because the fruit is so rewarding. And we'd love to talk more about what that would look like for you, for your family, for your church. We'd love to engage with you, I think.

Trevor. Trevor, just a final thought is, hey, we're humans. We're doing the best we can to interpret the text and follow the way of Jesus. And I think we all have a problem sometimes just admitting that we may not have it all figured out. So let us start with the humility. We're doing the best we can to understand what it looks like to be healthy people and to lead people toward transformation.

Well, and my encouragement is right off that. So to the idea of being humble and having conversations, because you got to be a real person and dive into this and address this topic if you.

Want to know more.

And you can't just assume that you know everything about it. And so I think it's just really important to have humble conversations, because really, that's the only way we learn, is having more conversations with people. Okay, guys. Well, when it comes to theology, interpretation of Scripture, like Rodney's saying, it can oftentimes be something that, you know, no one's perfect at. It can be a touchy subject. A lot of people can come from very convicted backgrounds or really not care about theology. And so regardless if you're stuck, if you stuck it out with us and stuck it out through this episode, we just appreciate you being gracious enough and understanding enough and allowing us to have this discussion. You know, because the perspective and the approach that we have on this topic of sexual brokenness, we're not claiming to be perfect. We're claiming to have put a lot of time and energy into it and are claiming to continue to take a humble approach in the way that we research it, we understand it, we apply it, and just know that, you know, our approach at Pure Desire is we're always growing. This isn't something that we feel like we've put, you know, a flag in the ground and we're never gonna move. We want to move as Christ moves us. So our biggest heart at Pure Desire is really to just create a roadmap for you for healing using scripture and a clinical understanding. So we want to help you find lasting freedom. And we have found that personally, all three of us in this room through this material, through this ministry. And we really want to be a part of helping, coming alongside you and helping you find it too. So if you've got any additional questions or you want to question, contact us. Ask more really biblical theological questions, have conversations. Visit our website@puredesire.org or you can give us a call. Our phone number is on the website. So, Rodney, Nick, thanks again for your time and your work over the years to better understand it.

Great to be here. Thanks, Trevor.

Yeah, thank you.

Awesome. And thank you for listening to the Pure Desire Podcast. If you like what you're hearing and want to keep up with the podcast, please subscribe. You can also rate and review our podcast and let us know how we're doing. For more information, check out our website, PureDesire.org and you can follow us on social mediauredesirepdmi. Once again, that's earedesirepdmi. We'll see you next time. Thanks for listening to the Pure Desire Podcast. For more information, check out our website, www.puredesire.org. check in each week for new content on the podcast and we pray that it will help you find hope and freedom on your journey to purity.