050 - FAQ #4

Welcome to the Pure Desire podcast where we partner with you to bring hope and freedom on your journey to purity. Before we start the podcast today, we wanted to let you know about our new resource for men, the Stories for Men book study. Finding Sexual integrity is possible. And going through this six week study will show you the path to lasting freedom from addiction. By studying 20 stories of men who've experienced the destruction that sexual addiction can bring, you'll begin to see the power of both sharing your story and being a part of a community who fully knows you and fully loves you. To start on the path for sexual integrity, visit PureDesire.org enjoy the podcast. Hey there. I'm your host, Trevor Windsor, and we're so thankful you're taking time out of your day to hang out with us. I'm here with my co host, as always, Nick stumbo.

Nifty at 50.

This is episode 50, nifty at 50.

I spent a long time thinking about that.

I'm really, I'm glad because we don't.

Have anything 50 greeting.

We don't have anything written down. So that's a big deal. And joining us on this glorious occasion of our 50th episode is one of our favorite people, Ashley Jameson. Welcome back.

Hi.

So if. Let's just talk about this real quick before we jump in. If you're a listener and you've listened to this episode and all the other episodes, you've been with us for just about a year, 50 episodes worth. And so now that could mean that we should probably apologize for all the things that we've said and maybe bad jokes we've made or. What I choose to believe is that you are invested in this ministry. You're invested into the message of really giving people hope, healing, and freedom from this topic, from sexual addiction and betrayal and shame. And so we're just, we're honored that you would listen to us for, what, one episode, let alone 50. So we appreciate that.

Yeah, we need to come up with like a little pin for their lapel. A little 50. Listen. Pin.

Yeah, no, absolutely. I don't wear shirts with lapels or.

Any jackets or pins.

I'm a millennial.

Yeah.

What are pins? Okay, so today's episode, we figured that it makes sense on our 50th episode to do a Frequently Asked Questions episode. So this is gonna be FAQ number four, where we're gonna dive into a bunch of different questions and topics that we get a lot of. And we love all the different kinds of questions we get because we're not Always able to answer them in the moment, at the events, when we're on the phone, all of that. And so this is just a space created to answer a bunch of different types of questions. And we continue to hope that these episodes can answer your questions. And if you have questions, you need to make sure to send them to us. And so we will give you that way to send those in at the end of this episode. So the first two questions, though, let's just start with this. The first two questions. Today we get to thank a guy named Joseph B. For both of these questions. He sent in an email for some questions and thank you. You're like the second person to do that. So Joseph B. Wherever you are, you're a saint. Thank you. The first question we have from him is what does a healthy person look like in other areas of their life? So thoughts, actions, planning, dreaming, etc.

I think that's a great question that's asked because we do want to emphasize that healing to be effective, to be long term, needs to be holistic. It needs to involve more than just stopping a behavior. And we say that a lot at pure desire that we're not here just to help stop a behavior. We want to change the way you do life, change the way you think, the way you see yourself, the way you view sex and sexuality. And so if we're talking about long term health and freedom, it should encompass many, many aspects of our life. And when I think of that question, rather than maybe trying to come up with a list of specific behaviors, although I'm sure we could list some, what type of tends to come to mind for me is some characteristics of a healthy person. So maybe the first thing that comes to mind is when we're healthy, we're self aware. Peter Scazzero, in his book Emotionally Healthy Spirituality, has a great quote that says most people are self conscious, but very few people are self aware. So when we're self conscious, we worry about what other people think about us. When we're self aware, we spend time investing in how do we see ourselves, how are we reacting to things? We where are we at emotionally? Why do we do what we do? Like we're able to look under the surface of our own lives and honestly assess what's going on. That leads to the second idea I'd think about, which is humility. I think a healthy person is humble. They're staying aware of their faults, of maybe their past issues, ways they've hurt people. And even if they're walking many years down the road, in freedom, they stay in that humble place. The Old Testament idea of Jacob, after he wrestled with God from that day forward, walked with a limp. I think healthy people walk with a limp because they remember their weaknesses and their encounters with God that changed them. And they're willing to give credit for their health and change to the God that made them and not just feel like it's their own good deeds that have accomplished it. The third idea that comes to mind, a healthy person, is other centered. That they're not just looking at what's in it for me, how great can my life be, how focused can I be, how high can I ascend the ladder at work? But they're really looking at I'm here to serve. That that's why God puts me here, is to use his love and the gifts he's given me for the good of others. And so whether it's at home with my spouse and my kids, in my work environment, or just in my community to say, God, what purpose do you have me here for? Because it's not just for me. So health is about being other centered. And then the fourth and final one that comes to mind is healthy person has a good habit of self care. Self care can take on a hundred different forms and different habits. But just that someone understands that to be healthy isn't an accident. It takes a plan, it takes some discipline, and it takes some standards in my life, whether it's about sleep, diet, exercise, relationships, having fun, letting go of stress. So some sort of self care plan and approach I think is a part of health. So those are kind of the phrases that come to mind. And I think if we want to evaluate how am I doing, those are four great words to look at to say, am I self aware? Am I humble, Am I other centered? And do I have a plan of self care? And if we see any deficiencies to say, well, maybe that's an area I could do more work in.

Yeah.

And with you talking about being self aware, that's something that's really big for me to know if I'm on track. I think once you get into your recovery a little bit and you start identifying your own emotional reactions and behaviors and how all that connects you, you do become more aware of certain behaviors that can cue you that you're unhealthy. So I know for me, when I'm feeling calm inside versus feeling like a ticking time bomb that anybody could set off, or good planning versus when I'm being really compulsive about everything, eating, shopping, I'm Just, I just am compulsive in, in, in every area or even when I'm not being productive and I'm not on task and I find myself procrastinating, finding excuses of other good things I have to do. I'm quoting, those are indicators to me that I'm really not living in a place of health right now. And so when I find myself doing those things I kind of address what's going on and then go from there.

Well, a key theme I think in everything you guys are saying is that there is a difference between living in community and living in isolation. And someone who's healthy is always living in community. So these things are leading me to be in relationship with other people where if, whether it's food or anything else, if I'm isolating with it, then maybe there is probably unhealth in that. And so just ask the question, is this thing pushing me into isolation? Am I isolating after it or is it pushing me into community?

When I think something we're pointing out in a lot of our answers is that health isn't a place, we arrive at that it's a part of a journey that we're on and we're continuing to move towards healthier, healthier living that we don't get some, oh, I no longer have this addiction, therefore I am healthy. Because as soon as we feel like we've arrived somewhere we're going to become unhealthy because we're no longer listening to input, we're no longer looking to grow, we're not open to others. So I think that's maybe another big thing to add is health is a journey and just keep at it.

Absolutely.

Well, that leads us into our second question from Mr. Joseph and that question is this. What does the healing journey look like for someone recovering from sexual addiction? So Trevor just up picked paint kind of a picture for us. What would an overview of someone walking through this journey. What would it look like?

Yeah, so I think really to put it as simply as I can, it's an intentional heart and brain work that you do over a period. What we see normally a two to five year process of getting free. It's intentional work on your heart and your brain and it's really becoming more self aware and equipping yourself with tools that we find in our group resources in a community. So it's something that you're doing not alone. It's something you're doing that's intentional and, and it's something that you're doing to become more self Aware. And the reason that is is because really addiction is about the difficulty and the struggles you've had in life, the trauma that you've experienced, and how you're trying to escape that pain. No one enjoys pain. No one loves to just push into it. And if you do, you're unique. So I just think that it's really important to understand that what, what I'm saying here, this idea of intentional work that creates self awareness that's done in community is done because addiction is about trying to get rid of all the junk that we have to experience on a daily basis.

Yeah. And I like to also add in that as you're doing all those things, if you're just beginning to go down a recovery journey with yourself or spouse, that those are all things that you have to do. It's kind of like when somebody tells you all the things you're gonna have to do as a parent and that it's going to be worth it. But if you were to watch a video of what my journey looked like, it would be really good. Godly things like throwing things at each other and cussing and threatening to leave and my hair falling out and hiding in a closet with a bucket of ice cream like that, for real is what people go through when they're on a recovery journey. I mean, you have to do all those things, but it's going to look like a soap opera with really big emotions because you're, you're letting go of something that numbed and masked feelings, whatever brought you there to that place of wanting to even do the hard work that it requires is maybe now under control a little bit. And so all these big feelings and emotions are out on the surface and you're learning to communicate in a new way. And it looks really messy. And that's normal. And so even just talking to people in groups, I talk to them every single day. It's like, well, this is worse than when I started. And things were better before. And it's really not. It's just that everything is out on the surface now and you can't deal with it and you can't change it if it's not out. And so it may look crazy. And just so you know, I am crazy, but not that crazy. That is not how we act all the time. It only came out when we started working on this. But, you know, I remember Dr. Ted saying, Good, that's normal. It means things are changing. And it really did. We don't throw things at each other or cuss. And I don't eat ice cream in closets. But every once in a while.

The way I think of that answer, like, in terms of our journey, I kind of think of some phases of the journey. And many of these happen concurrently. But I think there's definitely a sort of progression to them. That for most people walking through sexual addiction early on, the phase is about arresting the behavior in terms I'm trying to stop relapsing. And causing all the pain and problems that that causes. And so it's a lot about breaking out of denial, learning to be honest, getting in a group feeling, facing reality, creating some boundaries. And then as that phase begins to progress and we get some footholds, I see phase two being a lot about addressing the wounds in our life. Really looking under the surface at where did this come from? Where are the lies been created? In my thinking, what happened in my past that created these wounds that now I'm medicating. And as we really lean into that and God's doing work there. The third phase is all about relationship restoration. That because the, you know, the behaviors are more under control. I'm aware of the past now. I start to see really most fully the impact my behaviors have had on others and why I'm doing those things. And I'm able to really lean into rebuilding a marriage or opening up to my kids or talking to family members. And that can lead, as that health is taking place, into what I would call a fourth phase of either calling it moving into our calling or into destiny. Because as relationships are growing, then we're really turning the corner to say, God, well, what do you want me to do with my life? Really? What's all this for? How can I use my life and my gifts for your purposes? And so, like I said, those aren't neat. Like, okay, get through step one, and then step two. I mean, there may be times in your journey. Where all four are happening on some level concurrently. But I think in terms of the emphasis, that is kind of the progression. We see behavior into our wounds, into relationships, and then into calling and destiny.

Well, and what I'm getting, really, from these first two questions. And, Joseph, thanks again for sending these in, man. But I think what we're getting is that this journey is really just that it is a journey. It's gonna take time. And then also, it's complicated, and it's messy. It's not gonna be clean. It's not gonna be seven steps to getting free. Because if it was, we'd all do it, and we'd all be free. And Be moved on. But that's not it. It is a journey, and it's complicated. So the third question, guys, let's keep going. Is, when, in the midst of recovery, is it okay if a betrayed spouse wants to abstain or avoid sex for a period of time? And if so, how long is it healthy to abstain from that?

Yes, this is a question I get a lot as the group coordinator for women's groups. And so I've actually had conversations with our clinicians and other group leaders, and we've talked about this a lot. And yes, the answer is yes, it's okay to take sex off the table for a period of time. We always recommend that it's done with a CSAT or psap, somebody who understands sexual addiction.

And those are therapists for anybody who doesn't know. Those are professional. Those are people who are professionally through itap, through an organization that certifies them to be a therapist in this area.

Like our team here at Pure Desire.

That's right, Plug.

Exactly like our wonderful clinicians. But it is important to have somebody who really understands, because if you just simply take sex off the table and then. And then maybe some have taken it off the table and prayed, but they didn't work on what the issue was. They didn't work on the emotional damage or what it was that was really causing the division in their emotional or physical intimate life, then it's not going to get better. And so usually it's about 90 days. You always want it to be done with somebody who can walk you through the process, because, like I said, it's not just about taking it off the table, but it's about pausing and recalibrating. And so if the pressure is coming from the addict, then it may be something where. Where they need. The counselors will work with him to develop emotional intimacy. They'll use tools and exercises to help, because emotional intimacy always has to precede physical intimacy. And if the pressure is coming from the betrayed spouse, whether it's a him or her, then they'll work with that spouse to address guilt, if it's guilt, or maybe it's a codependent behavior. So for even myself, if. If John relapsed a lot of times I would rush back into being physically intimate because I thought it would fix it and just. It would help me with my guilt. Or maybe I was trying to, you know, if I tried harder, he wouldn't do that. And so it depends who's. Whose issue is really at play here. And that's why it takes Those professionals, because they can get to the root of what the issue is and then help people come back together in a healthy way.

When I think of this topic, I think it's important to ask the question, why would we be abstaining from sex? That if we can recognize the kind of things Ashley was talking about, that this is about rebuilding trust. This is about restoring true intimacy that goes beyond just physical connection. This is about understanding how both people could feel valued and make sexual union mutually enjoyable. Man, all those are valuable purposes. Or also if the reason is because it's been a natural consequence of someone's relapse where they knew ahead of time, if I cross certain lines again and hurt my spouse, there's gonna be a time of abstinence. In order to heal and in order for me to learn this really matters, there's something at stake. All that can have a really good outcome because it's moving us back as a couple towards being a couple again. I think it becomes dangerous if the why is, well, if it's just kind of this billy club or a threat of if you don't do what I want, how I want, well, then you're not getting sex and it's kind of arbitrary or just emotionally driven. Then it becomes more contentious and hard for it to have much of a redemptive side. So that's what I'd look at is, well, why? What's the purpose? As you know, the apostle Paul brought up, when you abstain from sex, it was about so that you can pray. It was about having a spiritual focus. And so I think that's really what we want to look at is, well, if that's off the table, what is it that we're focusing on? And as Ashley said, if we're continuing to work towards healing as part of that, it could actually be really, really helpful in creating a better sex life as a couple down the road.

And in regards to the timeline, it's gonna be dependent on the couple.

Yeah, every situation is different.

Don't think that it's just this three week thing or a month long or three months that don't put a timeline on it. I mean. Cause what you guys are both saying is it's about the emotional intimacy and where you're at as a couple that then leads and plays out in the bedroom. And so that's the point where you need to really understand that this is going to be a case by case thing. And that's what's nice about having someone. Whether it's a pure desire counselor or Another professional walking you through this is they can help you figure out what is best for the couple.

That's a good, that's a really good thing to bring up. And talking to other group leaders, we've also realized that a lot of couples, they'll just maybe need to take certain sexual things off the table. Maybe not sex altogether, but maybe making sure that whatever they're doing is not triggering for either one of them. Because sometimes it's just one thing that may trigger the betrayed spouse or it may trigger the addict. And going maybe like to a simpler version of face to face and doing things that bring that emotional connection and isn't making anybody feel uncomfortable or triggered.

Right. That's good.

Yeah.

But anyways, that was a really big question. And so maybe moving on to something a little simpler and straightforward. How often should someone check their faster scale daily?

Next question.

No, but seriously, episode 49.

Yeah, listen to the previous episode or episode two, but daily. And just again we talked about this actually in the previous episode the same time every day. And you know, make sure that after some, some really high moments during your day and really low moments that you also use this tool because that's gonna be really helpful in just becoming more self aware. So do it daily, set a time if you can. And after really high emotional moments and low emotional moments, make sure that this is a priority.

As we talked about last week, another option is to see our three weekly phone calls. Cause that's. We want a minimum of those three check ins that if I'm spacing those out appropriately at least three times a week, then before I make the phone call, I'm thinking through where am I at on my faster scale? How are things going? And maybe I don't have time right then to sit and write out the whole thing, but I can do a mental check in for a minute or two and think about where I'm at. And even having that three times a week where I'm thinking about it would really keep it in front of us in a way that makes it very, very useful.

Nice. Okay, so next question. What should it look like when we tell our extended family about addiction, betrayal, when this issue becomes a part of our relationships?

You know, I think that's a great question. A couple things I'd say about it before maybe giving some suggestions. Number one, I view this as, and I would say it so strongly as it's not optional. I think a lot of people here go like, ah, that's good if you want to. Not optional in that your story needs to go beyond you. And if you're of the mindset that, hey, I just want to fix this problem eventually, someday, maybe I'm going to get totally honest with my wife or my spouse and you're battling that, you're maybe thinking, but beyond that, no way, no how, you know, that's going to prevent you from getting to the kind of healing that God really has from you. Because this is part of your story and we want it to be a redemptive part of your story. So telling others needs to be part of the long term plan. So now, having said that, having said it's not optional, I also want to acknowledge every family is different, every relationship is different. And, and just because we're talking about telling your extended family doesn't mean it would be appropriate or even safe to tell all your family no matter what. So I mean, if you have a very strained, distant relationship with a parent for some reason, there's been very little communication for many, many years. I don't recommend calling them up, you know, and hey, listen to my story. Now on the other hand, if you've had a family relationship that's distant and strained, maybe your journey is just going to encourage you that I could reopen the door to that relationship. Because with healthy boundaries, with, with growth in my life, there are ways I could establish a stronger relationship there. But let's come to the question that's probably by and large to say, let's assume it's a fairly typical family relationship. People know quite a bit about us. We have some level of consistent communication. I think telling your family is so valuable because anytime we open a door to how we're being real and what God has done in our lives, it opens up new levels of conversation and relationship that otherwise we can't get to. So a couple of suggestions I make. I always encourage a person to write it out ahead of time, maybe even send it as a letter first so that you've really thought through your words. Make sure you're not blaming, especially if you're sharing like with parents, that you're not blaming them for some situation or making it about them, it's really telling your story in a healthy way. So write it out. And whether that means then sending it or reading it, or just having it with you when you're ready to share. And also if you're married, running everything past your spouse first, you don't want to share anything with your family that then your spouse is like, wait, what? I didn't know you were sharing that. Because they feel Involved in it. It's their story, too. So make sure they're on board. And then just look at what's my desired outcome? Because if you are, say, the extended family you're thinking about is your adult children, and your desired outcome might be to revisit some of your family history and let your kids know that some of the dysfunction they may have experienced in your family, this is what was going on and they didn't know, and they need to know, and they need to hear you say, I'm sorry I couldn't be honest about this then, but I'm trying to do the right thing now, and would you forgive me? So maybe your desired outcome is actually seeking forgiveness. If you're sharing with a sibling or parents, you know, asking forgiveness may not be the desired outcome. Maybe it's just to be honest and to open up the conversation. So I would encourage you to think through ahead of time. What are you looking for out of the conversation, and then just pray that God would really use it for growth in those relationships.

Yeah, I really like what you had to say about thinking about what your desired outcome is, and I think that is really good to keep in mind. Along with, you can't really predict what it will look like because you have no idea how somebody else will respond or how they'll react. So be prepared, even for the worst, but in a way that, you know, you're in a healthy spot and you're sharing your pain and your problems that you experienced and your plan to move forward and maybe reconcile or have a deeper relationship. I feel like a pastor there because I just said all those p words. But, you know, but for us, you know, we did that with John's family, and they. They blamed it on him and told him what a problem he was as a child. And, and that he, you know, he's been a chronic liar. And. And so it may not turn out the way that you want it, but. But it is certainly healing either way. You just. You just have to speak for yourself and what you experienced and, And. And I think it is important to share your plan of what you want. That I want a deeper relationship. I want to. I want to understand the things I couldn't understand when I was younger.

The positive side.

Yeah, you know, I think that's important to share the positive, wanting to move forward and then just realizing that you may not get the response you want. And so maybe even plan to have support from some of the group members after you've shared, have a plan to be able to get encouragement from them. Healthy people that know where you are afterwards.

Yeah.

And a practical thing, too, I'd encourage people is to avoid the graphic details. You don't have to tell everybody every single dirty secret or little thing that can end up doing a lot more damage than any good. And so just create an overview, like not, you know, dodging stuff or not being honest, but don't just share the graphic details that ends up being more detrimental in the long run.

Yeah. And it was funny because going the other way with. With my children, having to share with them, you know, that from the first time I shared with them and the tears and I don't want to know all that to this last episode, I. Whatever episode we recorded last, I went up to my son again and said, I just want to keep reminding you that between the podcast and the universities and any books that, you know, we write and contribute in, your guys, like all of your super embarrassing stories are out there for the whole world to hear, and I use them and I talk about you all the time. And all of our worst stories are out there. And my son's response was good. People want to know how things apply to real life, and they don't want to just hear a bunch of facts. And that is just like. I mean, that's night and day from the first time I shared all our stuff with him. So it is really cool. Okay, so moving on to the next question. How do we Pure Desire feel about other addiction groups like Sexaholics, Sex Addicts Anonymous, celebrate recovery, those other areas that do do things that are similar to our ministry? How are we different?

Yeah, that's a great question. One of the things I always like to say is if the data coming out about sexual compulsive behavior, sexual addiction, is even close to being accurate, and we believe it is accurate, then we need a thousand ministries working in this area, and we're just starting to scratch the surface. And so at Pure Desire, we say we want to link arms with others that are headed in the same direction, and we think there's lots of value in other groups. We may have things philosophically or convictions that are different, but if someone is working at this with a heart to help people and particularly rooted in faith in Christ and the sufficiency of Christ in our lives and his forgiveness, man, you know, we're on the same team and we champion that we celebrate those things. At the same time, we do want to recognize, we think there are things God has called us to and things that we found make what we do effective. A Couple of those things that come to mind is just our approach of being, you know, thoroughly biblical, but also clinically informed, that we build all of this on the firm foundation of God's eternal timeless word. But in learning how do we apply those truths in a way that transforms the mind, renews hearts, we can borrow and take from what's being learned about the brain and about psychology and pouring them over a biblical foundation, apply them in ways that are still biblical but are maybe some insights that the church hasn't always used. And so we do have insights that we've gained from Patrick Carnes, who's a secular source, from other researchers that then we have been able to adopt and embrace. To say, if we build this into our faith approach, it actually helps. It's not a secular spiritual divide. We can bring it in and use that. So that's unique that we're both, because I think you tend to find a lot of programs that are either biblical or secular and don't combine the two. Another thing that really, I think makes Pure Desire unique is that we are firmly and thoroughly committed to the local church, that we believe ultimately this battle can only be won in and through the local church. And that if we only try to grow as an organization and get people to come to us, we'd only be able to go so far. But if we come alongside the church and empower the church to do this ministry, empower the church to know how to help men and women, that's where Victory is at. And so even though you, yes, we sell books, yes, we have counseling, there are things we do as a ministry. At the end of the day, our aim is to say, can the local church take this and run with it? Because that's where Victory is really at. And the last thing I would want to add about Pure Desire is I think, a difference between like SA and CR celebrate recovery. And these are great groups, but typically a 12 step group is based on perpetual meetings. The idea that, you know, once you're an addict, you're always an addict, you know, hi, I'm Nick Stumbo and I'm an addict and I'm always going to be in this group because if I don't, I'll go off the deep end. And we really believe that healing and change is possible and that someone doesn't have to be in a group for the rest of their lives. And so that's a little bit of a difference because what we're looking into is addressing the wounds, addressing the lies, the things that created the behavior and if we can change the way that someone approaches life, they'll be at a point they don't need to come to group every week. Now, we still believe they'll stay in community, but they'll be equipped to do that whether or not they're in a group. And so that's one other difference, I think, between a lot of those groups that meet perpetually.

Yeah, you know, another thing that I see being just a small difference is that what we see in addiction is that there's this word called comorbidity. And it's where, you know, you stop doing one thing, but then it's easy to have this secondary addiction, this other thing. And I don't know specifically about SAA or cr, but I know that there are organizations that it's okay to then go and chain smoke or it's okay to go and, you know, it's okay to overeat or things like that. Where we are very, very holistic. We look at it as a way where you're becoming a healthy person, not just getting free from one specific addiction. So I think that's even just a small practical difference.

One of the ways that John and I experienced Pure desire being so different when we first started on our journey was we were given some material from a friend who had battled a pornography addiction. And it was all from a spiritual angle. And it left John feeling completely ashamed and even questioning his salvation because knowing he had really loved the Lord, but because he had struggled with this addiction for 20 years. And it was. It was really hard for us to wrap our brains around. Even for me, in my woundedness of feeling betrayed, I couldn't understand it either because I had my own addictions as well. But I also really knew that I loved the Lord. And so for somebody to tell me that it was. It meant I didn't love God was really hard. And. And some of the biblical principles just weren't making sense to me. So we. We. We didn't do that anymore. And then we were given a secular curriculum, and we tried looking at that. But again, I couldn't understand how God played a role in this. I couldn't understand how the science and. And how God designed us and what he was saying in scripture connected. And so when we finally landed and it was told total God thing, that it just fell in her lap. I was praying and begging. When we finally got the Pure Desire material, I remember opening it and just feeling like I heard angels singing. Like the brain stuff made so much sense. I just. I was so excited. I just Called my sister and I said, I feel like these people are speaking everything that I'm feeling and experiencing. It was the perfect blend of the science and how our bodies work and what. And that it's not about me. And that it was clear clinical and, and the brain issue. But then it also showed how the science just confirmed what God says and, and how. And where God was in all of it. And so that just made sense. And that's where we really catapulted in our recovery.

Yeah, that's great.

Yeah, good stuff. Well, guys, how would you say that marriage couples can reset intimacy after addiction and betrayal? What does that look like?

Oh, I totally know this one. It's 12 non sexual touches a day, five kisses a day and three compliments. And that's it.

That's quite the formula. Goodness, did you say that again?

I'm writing. I know, I'm kind of interested to.

Try that out now. Go home and just see what happens.

I think it might help. I need to work on that. But the reason why I said that is because when I hear the word reset, I think of like New Year's and everybody's resetting. You know, you hear a lot of reset messages at church and resetting my health. And people tend to think I'm going to drink more water, I'm going to go to the gym, I'm going to. And I think in my experience some marriage groups that we've, that I've been exposed to, it is like that. It's kind of like I'm going to drink more water, I'm going to go to the gym, I'm going to eat healthy, I'm going to give him 12 non sexual touches and 5 kisses and a back massage that doesn't lead to anything and three compliments. And you know, and that stuff is all good things, just like drinking water and eating well and going to the gym. But I really, really think it's about, about working continuously that your marriage is so important. It should be one of the number one things you protect and invest in. And so doing things like our connected resource where you can work on getting to know each other maybe for the first time in a real way after you've been through your own recovery groups or doing the faster scale weekly so that you stay emotionally and physically aware. But I really think that if you don't have something set on the schedule that you're not intentional, you don't have a calendar date, that this is my time with my spouse where we connect emotionally. I don't know if you need to schedule physical, that, that might be something that some couples will do. But it takes intentionality. And I think that you have to just constantly be working on it. And you see those perfect couples that are just perfect for each other, and they seem like they have it so easy, but I'm sure they're either in denial or. Or they work really hard at their marriage, that any good marriage takes a.

Lot of work, you know, and just kind of to piggyback off of that. Just communication is such a huge part of that. And so just being open, being honest, setting aside time to have conversations and to really talk and spend that time just connecting your hearts, not even just your body, but just connecting that way. Because a lot gets lost, I think, in between couples who don't communicate and who just assume a lot of things and. And just kind of let their brain take over and go on, really just cruise control. Communication takes care of that. When you guys are having serious and what you're saying, Ashley, intentional conversations, a lot can come from that. And a lot of intimacy is going to be birthed out of those times.

I think it's important that we keep up our habits, like weekly date night. And that doesn't mean we have to go out and spend big bucks. It might just mean we've got a night at home that's just for us to talk about our relationship and how things are going and really connect on that deeper level. And we shared this in the last episode that couples sitting down and walking through their faster scale, where they are connecting emotionally of why am I doing the things that I do? Can create great awareness. And a neat thing in the marriage is how emotional and relational intimacy can often lead into physical intimacy. And that's really, I think, the way God intended it, that all those things are connected and we're not ever substituting or replacing one with another, but that all of them are working together, that we're. We're physically close, emotionally close, spiritually close, and that all of that is part of resetting intimacy.

Okay, so our next question that we got is the goal or outcome that our ministry works toward is sexual health. But how do we define sexual health? How does someone know that they've reached sexual health?

Well, the first thing that I would say, and this is for all individuals and for single people especially, are included in this, that sexual health is having an understanding of my brain and my body that comes from God's economy and not just what culture or society teaches me and what I know from God and His Word is That I have been made a sexual being in his image, male or female, and that I can live a full male life or for a woman, she can live a full female life without having to have sexual expression in order identify herself. So that an individual who is unmarried can be sexually healthy because they understand themselves as God made them and they are waiting if, and so they get married for that expression to take place. Now, if we're married, we add to that definition that sexual health, I believe means that we're really understanding that sexuality in the marriage is the outcome or the expression of our intimacy. As we were talking about in the last question. I love the way Andy Stanley puts it in his messages on intimacy and sex. He always talks about that sex is meant to be the dessert of a good relationship, not the appetizer. And I think in a lot of marriages our society says no, sex is the main course. That's what it's about. And if we're treating sex like the appetizer or the main course, it's going to mess everything else up. It's like eating sugar for dinner every night might taste good for a while, but it's going to lead to some long term negative effects. Sex should be the outcome of trust, of mutual regard, of looking out for the good of the other. And that's healthy. Marital sexuality is when I'm in it for you and you're in it for me, that it's a two way street where we're both enjoying the other for the other and that's leading to a greater experience for us. And so when we really think about our sexuality in those terms of how God has created and designed it to be, I think then we'll find the greatest fulfillment.

And it's tied to emotional health. I mean, being known, you know, being known and knowing somebody completely. And I think that living a true authentic life or a true authentic marriage that has healthy intimacy or emotional health is one without secrets, is one where you are honest, you know, about your day, about your struggles, about your issues, and you're honest about how you feel. I mean, I think that again, kind of going back to the communication thing that if you're willing to just own how you actually feel and communicate it, a lot will, a lot's gonna go right where if you don't communicate things really some stuff just kind of festers and over time becomes bitterness and then becomes blow ups and acting out and so many different things. And so I think that it's, it's a life of being honest and being open and Being authentic with the people around us.

Yeah. And I think a good way, a good way for me, a simple way, because I've battled with feeling betrayed. And I've also had my own sexual addiction. Is. Is any part of my sexuality or the way I'm using it causing me to feel like I want to distance myself from God or others. And to me, that's like a good question I can always ask myself.

Yeah, that's good.

Alright guys, our next question is we. And we. Let's be honest here. We get this type of question a lot and a lot from spouses that have been betrayed. When we say that sex addiction is not about the spouse, we. What are we talking about?

Yeah, that is a hard question to understand, especially I think if you are the betrayed spouse. I remember John saying, this is not about you. It has nothing to do with you. And I would just think, okay, if you're saying that I'm your number one and you love me so much, then why would you do these other things? So it is about me. And it's just so hard to wrap my brain around. Even though he had this addiction for 15 years before he even met me. But it really is about a way of medicating and numbing out. And so, you know, when somebody acts out sexually in an addictive way like this, it does release chemicals that feel good. And so for John, it was about numbing out. For myself, when I was battling with my own addiction, it was about numbing out or medicating. It has nothing to do with my body or anything like that, but it becomes an addiction just like a substance would after a while. So it may start as a moral choice, a right or wrong, but it quickly becomes a brain thing, an addiction, just like drinking or cocaine or anything else. And that, that's a really hard thing to understand. But I think the more you can understand about how this addiction affects the brain, the more you can see that it's not about a person specifically.

And I think when we say it's not about the spouse, what we don't mean or what we're not saying is that you're not involved because spouses are impacted by it, spouses are hurt by it, that it is a deeply meaningful thing that needs to be worked. But what comes to mind for me is two things. Number one, you are not to blame for their addiction. Even if they've said you are, their addiction is not your fault. I don't care how you look, how young you are, or old you are, or physical health. None of that matters. It is not your fault. And some listeners need to hear that because they may have been in a difficult relationship where someone keeps saying, well, if only you. And if only you. And that is just a self protective lie that the addict is using. And so that's what we mean is it's not your fault. And if someone is telling you it is, they need to face that because they're putting blame for their behavior on someone else.

You don't need that kind of negativity in your life.

Now that doesn't mean you should just get rid of the person.

Right.

But you need to stand your ground and say, I am not to blame for your choices. Now there may be things you could do that could contribute to health, that could lead towards better relationship or a better intimacy. But that's true of all of us. And just because there's room for improvement in a relationship doesn't make it my spouse's fault. So that's number one. And the second thing is just like you're not to blame, you are not the solution. So that's the other twist is you can't look good enough or provide sex often enough or be caring enough or supportive enough or perfect enough to fix another person. And so don't put that pressure on yourself. Change happens when the person who needs change embraces it and takes responsibility for their life and their actions. So again, can you help? Yeah. Can you support? Sure. Can you be a part of moving towards health? Absolutely. But if you're ever in a position where you think you're to blame or you're the answer, that's going to lead to unhealth. And so we want you to let go of that pressure and move more into the appropriate place as a spouse of saying, how can I help? And then what do I need to let you be responsible for which.

And the difficult part of that is it's not a passive thing that has to be active. You have to be involved in that decision. It can't just be, I'm just gonna feel this way and get over it. It's really and probably the closer it is to the actual disclosure or the finding out of addiction or really those, those, those struggles in a marriage. It's gonna be more of a daily or maybe even a minute by minute decision for you to let those things go. But it always has to be an active thing.

And can we all say that addicts lie and blame and manipulate and I'm not saying they out there, but us addicts, you know, when you're in that Space that's normal behavior. And healthier they. Yes, it's protective. And I think that's what Nick meant by that. And the healthier they get, the more aware that they will become that it's not about you. But in the beginning, they may say that or.

And even believe it.

Yeah, and believe it. Yes, exactly right. That's it. That was good.

All right. Hey, you guys, this has been great. One more question here before we call it a day. And that final question is this. And one more reminder. You know, we'd love to have you send in questions for our next episode, but today we're going to end with this one. What does relapse look like for a love addict? Let's kind of go to the other angle. What does that look like for someone battling love addiction?

Ooh, this one's me. This one's me. I was a love addict hardcore. I still battle it. And it can vary. It can vary depending on the person. Just like a sexual addiction can vary between pornography or masturbation or prostitutes. I mean, it has all kinds of levels. And so it's really about what the individual needs to identify their own relapse. It could be. It could be flirting. It could be jumping from one relationship to the other, not. Not. Not finishing a relationship before you jump into the next one. It could be. For me, I promised myself I wasn't gonna jump into a relationship or. Or fall in love too easily. And then I would find myself doing that again. I would find myself so obsessed and distracted with relationships and fantasies. There was. There's times where I go days at work with barely getting anything done because I was so obsessed or distracted with my relationship. And. And I do feel bad about that time I wasted of theirs, but it's. You know, I'm healthy now, so pure desire has nothing to worry about. Thanks for clarifying, but, yeah, but it could look any way or needing your validation through somebody else that I thrive off. All my thoughts and behaviors go through. Well, will that person notice me? Will they say something positive about me? And so it really depends on the person, where they're at and what their addiction looks like.

Well, and full disclosure here. I'm a love addict. That's my thing, too. And I've come to this recent conclusion that that's the truth. But what I'm seeing in my life is it's about seeking control. And so if I'm seeking to control a relationship or how that person feels about me or how I'm feeling in the moment, I see that, you know, Relapse is when I make a decision based off of that. So if I, you know, I'm trying to manufacture moments or manipulate moments in order to get what I want or feel control over that person or that relationship, then that is a relapse. That's something where I'm seeking to validate myself and find my identity in that relationship. So I see it being really. That's. It's about seeking control.

Yeah. I think in any addiction, it's asking the question, what's the thing that I don't want to do that I seem to keep doing? And I lack a level of the ability to control it. So whether that's jumping into relationships or sexting or a kind of codependence, if I've identified that's what I'm trying not to do, and I can't seem to not do it, that becomes the relapse. And as Ashley said, it can look a lot of different ways for a lot of different love addicts. But that's why we need a group. That's why we might need a counselor to help us identify what's the unhealthy pattern that I'm trying to change. And others can usually help us identify that if we're struggling to see what it is. Yep.

Well, guys, we did it. Frequently asked questions number four. These episodes are awesome. Thanks again. This is episode 50. This is so awesome. It's not that we didn't think we'd get to 50, but it's just cool to see that we're. We're continuing with these episodes. Absolutely. So we just really are thankful for these questions. And these are questions that you have had before you listeners. And so if you want to get your questions answered on more FAQ episodes, there's a couple ways you can do that. You can email your questions to infoupuredesire.org, i'll make sure these are in the show notes. Email your questions to infoouredesire.org and use the subject line PD Podcast. And the other one you can do is you can post your questions on social media using the hashtag pdfaq. Again, that's pdfaq. So send those questions in. We'd love to have them. And Nick, Ashley, thanks, guys. Appreciate your time.

Thank you.

Nifty at 50.

Nifty at 50. And thank you for listening to the Pure Desire podcast. If you like what you're hearing and want to keep up with the podcast, please subscribe. You can also rate and review our podcast and let us know how we're doing. For more information, check out our website, PureDesire.org. you can follow us on social mediauredesirepdmi. Once again, that's earedesirepdmi. We'll see you next time. Thanks for listening to the Pure Desire Podcast. For more information, check out our website, www.puredesire.org. check in each week for new content on the podcast and we pray that it will help you find hope and freedom on your journey to Pure Security.