051 - When Crisis Occurs

Welcome to the Pure Desire podcast where we partner with you to bring hope and freedom on your journey to purity. Before we start the podcast today, we wanted to let you know about our new resource for men, the Stories for Men book study. Finding Sexual integrity is possible and going through this six week study will show you the path to lasting freedom from addiction. By studying 20 stories of men who've experienced the destruction that sexual addiction can bring, you'll begin to see the power of both sharing your story and being a part of a community who fully knows you and fully loves you. To start on the path for sexual integrity, visit PureDesire.org enjoy the podcast. Hey there. I'm your host, Trevor Windsor, and we're so thankful you're taking time out of your day to hang out with us. I'm here with my co host, as always, Nick Stumbo.

Hey, go Brazil. World cup soccer.

Wow, are you. So do you root for Brazil? Is that your thing?

Well, the United States isn't in it and I think Brazil is the only country that I've been to that is in it. So I'm like, hey, that's my new adopted country.

So an international bandwagon fan is basically.

The title you're taking. I was there six months ago, so I feel some affinity of the country at least.

Okay, well, I think me and the listeners will let you have that today. And today we have a first time guest with us, Mike Maxwell. Mike is our new operations director at Pure Desire and we're happy to have him on staff and are excited for him to join us today. Welcome to the PD Podcast, Mike.

Hi. Glad to be here.

We're glad to have you. So today we're gonna be talking about crisis. We will define it, so just hold off. But crisis is not something any of us enjoy or want to find ourselves in, but it's a reality of sexual addiction and this whole process of finding freedom and the start really of that healing on this journey. So we really want to talk about this, we want to address it because it's something that happens. But before we do, Mike, since it's your first time, can you just tell our listeners a little bit of your story, your background and your experience with Pure Desire?

Sure. You know, really this whole journey is all about trying to figure out what manhood is. And you know, your childhood kind of sets you up for that. My dad was an authoritarian kind of black and white thinker. Lots of rules, not relationship. And my mom was very nurturing and he taught me or modeled for me what manhood was in that it was harness your anger, work hard. And interestingly, the other thing that really kind of formed my idea of what a man should be was Happy Days was the big show when I was going to.

You're dating yourself a little bit here.

I know it's okay. But it's just so ironic that, you know, Fonzie was the guy and he got the girl. So I kind of merged those three things together. You know, harness your anger, work hard, get the girl. And then that coupled with the way my mom and I were relating was if I made her happy or kept her happy, she provided that nurturing, affirming side to me, which, you know, play right into ultimately a sexual addiction.

Wow.

So, yeah, years later, you know, it began to kind of blow up when I was on staff at a church. I'd gotten married, discovered Internet pornography in 95. And it just kind of grew and grew. And I thought I was protecting my wife in one respect, you know, that crazy kind of justification we have that I wasn't cheating on her, I wasn't going out and having an affair, strip clubs, those kind of things. And pornography just got a hook on me. I mean, I had seen pornography as a kid, but it never really became a thing, probably because I didn't have access to it until that Internet thing came along. And then you could access this without anybody knowing. There was very little accountability. No one knew, or at least you thought so if you could hide your history. And here I was on staff at a church and full blown sex addict. And I didn't realize it at that time. I just thought I was a guy being a guy and I'm under grace and it's okay. So two divorces later, God finally got my attention and I was living in a hotel during Christmas, trying to hide everything from my family. Was ashamed my church had found out. Fortunately, they were very grace filled towards me and loving and supported me. But my marriage couldn't recover. And so I immediately got in a men's group at that point and a good counselor here in town, and he walked me through it. And it was at that point I went, you know, what if I lose everything else? I've still got God. And I had been on staff at the church because I felt a call in my life. And I think that happens a lot of times that when you have a call in your life, you've got a target on your back. And so, you know, I was there alone with God. I said, God, if you can use me again, please don't abandon me. And so that was kind of the turning point where I went, okay, nothing else in life matters except my relationship with God. And I've got to dig in regardless of whether my wife comes back to me or not. And over the years, God has redeemed all that the devil's taken. I'm happily married to an amazing woman now and recently joined Pure desire to follow what is now my passion. And I believe God has. As you know how TED talks about becoming a weapon in the hand of God against the enemy, I definitely feel that that's what I have the privilege of doing now. And I've had the privilege for several years in leading groups. Now I just get to be on staff with you fine folks and get out on the front line and make it happen.

Right on.

That's right.

Yeah.

Well, Mike, we appreciate you sharing some of your story and we are excited to have you on staff and see what the future holds together. Let's jump in here to this episode on crisis. Obviously, you've walked through some in your life and I know helped with many other men that are at that crisis kind of point. You've been a go to guy in your church and someone that others have come to in that kind of place. So just let's start here for our listeners. What do we mean when we say crisis? What kind of situations come to mind when you hear that word?

Wow. I mean, in this particular context, I mean, most guys don't realize they have a crisis situation until their marriage is starting to fall apart, unfortunately. And I was one of those. I was in denial and just thought I could handle it on my own. Didn't need anybody to help me. In fact, I remember thinking, if I was a real man, I could deal with this on my own. And the reality is real men need other men. And so crisis, you know, usually a guy's desperate by the time he calls us or even confesses to anybody that he's got an issue. And it's usually heartbreaking at that point because families are on the ropes, many don't recover, and the enemy has actually blown up their home. And so they, they're desperate.

Well, and it seems like there's some sort of exposure that's taken place. So it's not just that, you know, a friend found out and it's like the wife has stumbled upon the pornography or the whatever form of addiction, you know, it's taken or a family member finds out. So there's some sort of people know, I can't get away from this anymore.

Yeah, there's no Chance of escape. I've gotten fired from my job. I got picked up by the police. My daughter found pornography on her computer or saw a text. And my wife is now aware they're exposed. You're exactly right. And now they're desperate. And initially, it's like, you wonder how many guys are sorry they got caught or sorry for their sin. And. And that's the challenge when a guy comes in to kind of go, are you really sorry for your sin or are you just sorry you got caught? Because it does make a difference in how they progress through the men's group and the homework and the healing and that kind of thing. And I've always said it seems like the more pain they feel, the quicker the healing comes.

Yeah. I think that, for me, is what defines crisis, is you're at that place of recognizing something has to give. We can't keep going this way. Either my marriage and family are going to fall apart, or I'm going to change. And that can be both scary and exciting all at the same time, because it can become fertile soil for change. But I know for many others who are listening, the crisis might not be the first exposure because they have maybe tried to do the right thing along the way. To confess, that's my story, even from engagement time, being pretty honest about this in my life. And then every, you know, six months to a year, bringing up more stuff, hey, it's still a problem, but I'm working on it. It's going to get better. And so, like, the crisis in my life wasn't about a first exposure, but about getting to that point where I just recognized it's destroying my wife. And we're at a place she's ready to leave. And so there. There can be kind of both sides. For some, it's the first time they've really been caught, can create the crisis. Or others, it's where they recognize their lack of ability to change and to sustained change is creating that breaking point. So either way, it happens, I think it's important to just recognize we're at that place, we're desperate to change.

Yeah. You know, it's interesting. Some guys come in and they'll say, yeah, my wife, you know, she's. She doesn't have a problem with it, or she just thinks it's a guy thing. And these are Christian families, and those guys typically have a really hard time progressing through healing because they. They're not there for themselves yet. Those guys that initially come in that are feeling a lot of pain sometimes are there for their Wife. Right.

I just want to help my marriage get back together.

Right.

Yeah.

And so their. Their focus is, well, if you can just help me quit doing X, Y or Z, then everything's going to be okay because my wife will be happy. But those guys that come in that have a devastated relationship with Jesus, that's kind of neutered because of their behavior. They don't really. They're kind of numb and they're in crisis. They just don't know it yet. In fact, I think in many ways, I think that's the greater danger is that kind of frog in the pot thing where you are being boiled alive and you don't even know it.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

Yeah. Well. And we find for a lot of those wives, and I don't mean to say this is all the time in every case, but for many women who say, oh, it's just a guy thing, I don't care that much, we find that that's actually a protective mechanism where it's a way for them to kind of block or avoid some trauma. Because I really believe if you look at creation and how God designed women's brains to work and to think and feel, they long for exclusivity, to be the bride, the princess, the beauty for their husband. And so when they say, oh, it's not a big deal, I actually don't see that as a healthy sign. That's a dangerous sign to be in a relationship, because I think women are buying into a cultural lie, then that says, well, in order to not feel offended, in pain from this, I'm just going to decide that's a guy thing. And so I just bring that up because I try to warn guys to say, she might be saying it's not a big deal, but I can almost guarantee you it's causing a much more significant fracture in your relationship than you realize. And if you will address this, it's going to lead to some pain first, but the health that can come is really incredible.

And let me just remind the listeners that this isn't something that only men deal with. This is something that women also deal with. So if. If a wife or spouse, you know, has had an affair or has their own sexual addiction, this can happen both ways. So any, any. Any gender can find themselves in crisis. So we are speaking specifically from our experience as men, so please forgive us for that. But at the same time, understand that this is something that can happen to both genders.

Nick, I really do appreciate you bringing that up, though, because you're right. These guys, these guys are Believing what their wives are saying because they want to justify what they're doing. And you're right.

The.

You know, our wives are a precious gift from the Lord. And for us to betray them in this way, and regardless of what comes out of their mouth about how offended they are or not, I really appreciate what you said, because that is so true. They all want to be cherished and loved, and they deserve it.

Okay, so crisis. We appreciate the definition. Thanks for even just sharing, Mike. I mean, that's. That's really an awesome thing to be able to just be vulnerable. But we see that crisis isn't obviously something we want. It's not something any of us hope for, but we see that this happens. So if someone finds themselves in crisis, from your experience, what's the first thing they should do?

Well, you know, it's a challenge because where I sit now, I look at it completely differently than I did then. But if I was to counsel somebody, if they came to me, which is probably the first thing you can do, is they've got to find somebody that they can talk to, A pastor, a counselor, someone who understands first this addiction, because you can't. It's very difficult to provide good counsel to somebody if you haven't walked that path before. When I was on staff at the church, we had an overcomers group. It's kind of like celebrate recovery. And we had this great old pastor who was a Hispanic guy who'd been in San Quentin and he was a heroin addict, or had been a heroin addict.

Not anymore.

While he's a pastor.

That had been an interesting ministry.

Yeah. But he would always. He had this group of people, probably 150 people off the street, drug addicts, everything. And they would come up and ask some of us for money, those kinds of things. And he would come up and he'd say, mike, you can't help. These people. Don't give in. They know how to manipulate you because they know you don't understand their addiction. And I've often thought of that in relationship to this addiction is. And you see it happen when you have people get in a group that doesn't have a leader that has been through it, because it turns into a kind of pat on the back, okay, do better, see you next week kind of thing. And that was my experience. I confessed my sin initially to a friend who had been in a small group and another gentleman who actually was an elder on our church, and they both struggled as well. And so it took me about two months to go. These guys can't Help me. And so initially, you've got. I would say, as a guy, you gotta go to the church, some organization that has the ability to give you good counsel. One of the worst things you can do is immediately disclose to your wife every detail and allow her to dictate how that happens. And that's one of the things I also get to deal with in groups is guys that are here because, hey, my wife caught me. So I confessed everything about how I lust after her best friend or whatever. And now they're in, you know, their wife has now turned into a parent who's monitoring everything they do. And, you know, there should be disclosure, and your wife deserves to know, but there's a right way to do that. And a lot of guys, in an effort to just kind of just bare their soul and get right, just kind of throw up all over their wife. And of course, then they feel a little better about it, but their wife is in terrible pain.

You know, it comes to mind for me, and I think about this is going back to my crisis moment in February of 2010, where I was away from home and had gone back to the place I swore I wouldn't go. And I just. I knew immediately that this was going to be a real potential breaking point in my marriage because I had made so many promises that it was the last time and never again. And I knew I was going to have to tell her. But what came to mind in that moment was the name of a friend, someone that I knew, cared, that loved me and could listen. And I called him and, you know, for half an hour, just cried and poured out my heart. And how could I be doing this? And that's kind of a first thing I encourage people like, you need to think about someone in your life outside of the marriage relationship that you can go to and lay it all out there. I mean, you talk about spilling all the details and that need to get it off your chest. You know, go to a friend first, someone that loves God and loves you and can listen and can help provide some perspective, because that's someone that can, you know, speak into your life and say, this isn't the end. God still wants to use you. He can. He can save your marriage. So let's talk about how to do some right steps here. And yeah, it's going to be hard, but I'm going to be with you. And that was just so important for me. And I think for every guy or gal that hits that crisis moment to say, who's your community? Who's someone around you that loves God and loves you, that you can go to and that can help you walk through the next steps. Because you don't want to navigate it alone. I mean, there are things that you need to do alone. There's some of your hard work and willingness to go to a spouse and own up to some things. I mean, no one else can do that but you. But you don't want to go into those situations feeling like you've got no one else. And so find that person might be a pastor, a counselor, friend, and just someone that can kind of talk you off the ledge also, so to speak, that can help you just take some deep breaths, calm down. We tend to jump to some. The world is ending and nothing will ever be good again. And we need perspective. And more often than not, that comes through other people that can guide us through the process.

Well, and what you guys are both talking about is that we're breaking isolation. So this is something. This is an addiction, an issue that festers and grows and just really just takes over your life in secret and in the dark. And so when you are at that crisis moment, the reason such a great first step to go into community, go into a relationship, and having a conversation with a friend is you're breaking that denial. You're breaking the lies off that I have to do this by myself. So when you include somebody else, what you're doing is you're also getting another avenue for the Lord's voice to come through. Because oftentimes we have a skewed perspective on how God feels about us because of this addiction. We think we're hearing the Lord when we're not. We're hearing lies from the enemy. And so this person can come alongside you and help you and give you perspective. But what you're doing is you're actually breaking isolation, which is such a huge piece to this. So that's the reason why you guys are saying that. That's like the underlying thing with really going to somebody.

Yeah. You know, one of the interesting things as you were talking now, I kind of get to be that friend in many, many ways. And it's a cool opportunity. It really is. Because a lot of times, you know, in the church, divorce is at 50% or whatever it is. It's pretty high, higher than it needs to be, should be. And, you know, you'll hear of something in the church that's taking place and just happened recently. And I may not know that person that well, but maybe I had contact with them. I'll try and reach out Because I've noticed oftentimes when there's that marriage crisis, regardless of exactly what it is, when a couple splits, one of them will typically go to a bar or something to look for some kind of nurturing or comforting. Especially guys that are sex addicts. They're like, I just got to go have a Dr. Drink. Because usually the addictions travel in packs. And so I usually try and reach out and go, hey, why don't you come with me? Let's go grab a cup of coffee and talk about this and just go. How do you really want the outcome of what's happening to finalize? Because if you make a few bad decisions here, it could be the end of your marriage forever. Or if you're just patient and trust God. And that's the encouragement I try and give is. You know, I know this looks terrible right now, but God is a redeemer, and he can heal. It might not always turn out the way you want or hope like it didn't in my. You know, in my case, my. My second marriage ended over getting busted with pornography. But, you know, God did redeem, and I'm so very blessed and grateful that pain. And I think that's what I was getting at with how I view the crisis now. I see those moments of crisis as beautiful opportunities where Christ actually enters your life in a different way. Because for me, it was. I'm too stubborn. It almost is like God has to have those crisis moments to get my attention, and I hope I'm done with those. But that tends to be the pattern in the past, and I didn't realize that until I was going through pillars as we were working through that. I went, oh, my gosh, there is a pattern of God using crisis to get my attention.

Yeah. Yeah. Pain can be the birthplace of incredible change. Well, that leads right into the next question, Mike. When it comes to crisis, what are some things that people need to avoid? What are kind of the pitfalls or mistakes people make in a time of crisis that we could help people think through?

Yeah. What I see over and over is guys going to the wrong community. In other words, they go to their friends who are single or unsaved or out in the bars or those kinds of things, they isolate. And, you know, a lot of it depends on the personality of the guy. Seems to me that just my kind of observation, that a lot of the guys that go through this are more introverted than extroverted. Not always the case. But those people have a tendency to isolate even further, you know, and medicate in other ways. That's the other thing is they go, I'm going to white knuckle this. I got a problem here. I recognize it now. Then they start overeating or they start drinking or in my case I was working out twice a day because I just had to do anything to keep from being alone with my brain, you know. And so that's probably the biggest thing. And then the other thing is trying to fix this too quickly with their wife. That's good. You know, this is, you know, when I first went into a group, I'm like, okay, hey, you guys are all great. What is about three week process? I'm gonna have this figured out. And they're like, no, it's a two to five year process. And I'm like, what? You're kidding. Well, for me it's turned into a passion and a ministry because I recognize that 7 out of 10 guys in church are struggling with this. Man, what a ministry, you know, for those of us that got us healed. And I get to walk, I get to walk with these guys every day. And it is such a blessing and see marriages healed and all kinds of things.

So something that I know I did, I had a crisis moment when I right after I graduated, graduated from college. I was engaged at the time and my fiance had found pornography on my computer. And I was at work and she was at my parents house. I just remember that so vividly. One of the things that I did that I think is wrong is to make promises to say stuff like, I'll never do this again. I promise you I will, I'll get rid of my computer. So every like extreme guardrail I can think of, I'm just going to promise I'm going to put them in place right now. And what I found for me is when I did that, I ended up setting myself up for failure. And so when I found myself not maintaining those or slipping down, you know, towards relapse or really just not doing what I said I was going to do, just shame just got dumped on me. And then that just led me to act out again. And so I think that that's one of the things I would encourage anybody out there to do is to not make promises. This is gonna sound weird, but just to sit in it for a minute and to think through it and make sure community is a part of those decisions. When you do set up guardrails or create some sort of plan for going through this, but do not make initial promises because you're just gonna set you and the others around you up for failure.

Yeah. What you and Trevor, you and Mike are both talking about is the difference between stopping the pain or really making long term change to fix the problem. Makes me think of a story from when I was in college. My friend and I were on a road trip and we saw some girls on the side of the road that looked like they needed help. And so we pulled over and I mean, they'd had a huge tire blowout that had led to, I mean, it was not looking good. But my friend asked them about it and they said, well, we started to hear like kind of a loud noise by the tires. So we just turned up the radio, you know, and they were probably 16, 17, you know, we were trying not to laugh, but there was kind of like that attitude of, well, let's just ignore it and maybe it'll get better, you know. And then the tire like literally blew up and they had a big problem on their hands. But that's kind of what I think we can do in a crisis when we've been caught and it's like, how can I drown out the pain but not really address the problem? And when we make promises, when we just try to fix it with our words, we are actually making the problem worse down the road because we're not focusing on change. And so you really need to not make as many promises but actually take more steps and actions to look at long term change. The other thing I think about what not to do, it's the principle of the hole that when you find yourself in a deep hole, the first thing you need to do is stop digging. And some of what you said earlier, Mike, about the choices you make next can either set you up for a path of healing and redemption or really spell the end and the demise of everything you hold dear. And when we're in that place of crisis, we're emotional. And so that's the real danger is we can do emotional things that we're really going to regret later because like, man, my wife caught me, she's mad my marriage is going to end. And well, if it's going to end, then I might as well go and, you know, whatever.

Yep.

And so we just really put the nail in the coffin, so to speak, where instead we need to put down our shovel, stop digging. And there are a lot of thoughts I think that'll come to mind on the other side of man, I'm getting rid of the Internet, I'm getting rid of my smartphone and I actually encourage guys like, well, do that, you know, for a Season. Do that, like, do whatever you have to do to absolutely put yourself in a safe place of sobriety. I mean, that's, that's the reason some people go to, in treatment programs, because they go to a place where they're safe and they, they find it's impossible to act out because all those things have been taken away from them. So there, there is that reactionary sense of, okay, for this time, I'm getting rid of everything which can put you on the path towards healing. But then again, don't assume that that will change your brain. That'll change your pattern. So you might initially make some big changes, but that's just to give you enough time to enter into a process of change with a group, with friends. So a couple of ideas there. What not to do. Stop digging. Don't get irrational. And as you guys said, don't. Don't just expect your words to fix the situation. Need to use your actions to actually start to create change in your life.

Because if words could fix problems, then I would have no problems for sure.

Addicts are great at getting out of stuff.

Yes. Okay, so, Mike, you talked about this a little bit about the idea of, now you've got a ministry because you've experienced crisis. Now you have this ministry with other guys or other people who've experienced this or run into crisis. But what if there are listeners out there who haven't been in crisis, don't understand this firsthand, but still want to be a safe place or a person that someone in crisis can go to? How can they help people in crisis?

Well, I'm a firm believer of men's groups. It's interesting. In my past, I always tried to avoid them. And I believe that was probably because I was afraid of being exposed. And so I thought those situations I felt comfortable with competitive situations. But any situation where we actually had to get deep and talk about stuff or personal things, I tended to avoid those. I think probably one of the first things you can do is get in a men's group yourself, be an example, Be a faithful husband and a good father, a good church role model that other guys can see. And then the other thing is reach out. I'm an introvert, and so reaching out is not always easy for me. But I try really hard to just get outside my bubble and make sure I have contact with guys at church to say hi and just let them know that I'm around and available. And some call me out of the blue, some don't. That would be one thing, is just live the Life. Live the life we're called to live. Be an example. The other. I would just say every guy needs to be involved in some ministry at church. You know, I believe we are naturally selfish people, and sexual sin is a selfish sin. You know, the Bible says we reap what we sow. If we exercise selfish behavior, we become increasingly selfish. One of the ways we get away from that is by serving. And I know that churches have a way of kind of riding their volunteers till they drop. And so the other side of that is say no if it's not a fit for you. You know, I think everybody should do something, but you got to find that ministry that fits what. What God's called you to do. If you're a happy, go lucky, cheerful person. Maybe greetings right for you.

Be a greeter. We need greeters.

And if you're a quiet, introverted soul and stacking chairs is your thing, then do that. If you're, you know, you got to find your spot. I am a big believer of not trying not to put people in the wrong spot, because if you put that square peg in a round hole, they're not going to make it very long and they're going to have a bad experience. But if you can find that place where they're passionate and love serving Christ in that way, then they're going to flourish. And so I just think that the church needs to be more of a hospital church. We need to be open about our foibles and sins and those kinds of things, which is really hard. James Reeve had a big impact on me at the Pure Desire conference a couple years ago where he talked about the hospital church. And so I just want to be part of that and go, this is my little niche. You know, I can't deal with all these other things. But if you need marriage counseling, I can send you to Pastor Allen or whoever it is. But if you're struggling with sexual issues, then come on, let's get involved in a pure desire group. And I can definitely help you walk that walk, and it will change your life.

Well, I think that's a great point, because when we're in a crisis and struggling with these kind of things, we can feel like we're worthless and disqualified from any kind of service. And there are certainly roles or things we shouldn't do when we're in the middle of crisis, but the nature of sexual addiction is turning in on ourself. It's very selfish. And so any ways that we can find to serve others in love, and whether it's Something simple behind the scenes, like stacking chairs or helping in the parking lot crew, those kind of things that, you know, we can be used there. What I also think of when you talk about someone coming to you in crisis is what was said of Jesus in John chapter one is that he came full of grace and truth. And I think to be a person that's full of grace and truth. So if someone comes to you to lead with grace and just speak about their value and affirm them and love on them, because the enemy's speaking the opposite message about they're worthless and they're no good, and you're never going to amount to anything. And so to just be a voice that contradicts that with the word of God, to say, you are valuable and God loves you just as much as he did ever in your life. But also be willing then in appropriate ways to speak truth. Because any person going through an addiction is stuck in some degree of denial or rationalizing or minimizing. And as you just listen to them, you know, be a good listener as they tell their story, you're going to hear some of the lies you're listening to and try to gently bring those up, often in the form of a question. Like you might say, you know, so what are you going to do to actually change? And if all they're saying is, I'm just going to try harder not to do it. You know, to try to point out and say, well, has that ever worked? I mean, just trying harder. It sounds like you actually need to put some things in place and. And so to speak truth in a way that can move them towards action, I think is the role that. That God can use us in.

You know, as you guys are saying that too, I think it's really important to be open and vulnerable about your own journey, whether it's, you know, whether it's in sexual addiction or not. I recently a sermon at our church talking about Luke 15. And when the younger brother comes back, you know, the whole idea of if the younger brother ran into the older brother first before he ran into the father, then he maybe never would have gone inside. And so if you're a person that's closed off and doesn't share their story and isn't open and honest about your shortcomings, then you're not a safe person. For me, if I'm in crisis, if I'm struggling, if I have issues, you're not a safe person. And I don't really want to be around someone who's not safe. And so Being someone who is safe. And that means being open and honest about your own struggles and issues in life.

That's a great point. You know, the other thing I was thinking as you were talking, Nick, was I've always kind of viewed myself as a connector. And in the body, you know, I might be a thumb, but if you're needing an elbow, I can point you to the elbow. I can get you there, you know, and part of that is just knowing what my church body can and cannot do. It might be that that elbow I need to get you to is the Pure desire counseling offices or something. But I think that's the other thing. If you're in the body of Christ, being aware of what people need and where to refer them. And I love what you said is, you know, not being that older brother. And Nick, you reminded me when I do first meet with a guy, I usually tell them my story first because I want them to know right away I've been where you're at. So what I'm about to say is legit.

Yeah.

And usually when they hear what I say, you know, where I've been, they can. They can relate. And when I say, you don't want to go through it, I went through God can. God can work a miracle in life without all the pain. Any more pain. If you're willing to address it now and do the right thing.

Yeah.

If you're not, there's a lot more people.

People can't learn from your experience if you don't share it.

Yeah, they can't.

Yeah. Well, that leads right into the next question about crisis and how this relates to pure desire groups. So if. If you're in a pure desire group and a guy or a gal shows up and clearly that week they're in crisis, what should you do? How can the group respond to a person in crisis?

Don't show up to group that week. I'm just kidding. That's a bad idea.

Please go to group.

Oh, you know what? That often happens. I mean, if you're in a group very long, you're gonna have one of the guys come in and go, man, the poo poo's hit the fan this week and I'm in desperate need. And, you know, my personality is. I tend to be a rule follower. And, you know, Everybody gets their 10 minutes and this, that and the other thing. And sometimes you just have to break the rules and go, you know what, guys? Tonight it's all about John. And let's just hear what he has to say. Let's Pray for him. You know, there's oftentimes where we'll get around. Put hands on a guy and just with tears, just cry over these guys and go, God, heal their marriage. Do a miracle. Because if you don't get involved, you know, this marriage and this family is going to be destroyed. And those, in all honesty, are the most powerful knights at men's group. You know, I heard John Carpenter say, Ron Carpenter say one time that, you know, the Christian life is a lot of mundanity punctuated by awesome interjections by God. And we live for those interjections. And so. But you have to be faithful in the meantime to get those. And so that's what I love about Groot is as I just go, I'm just a guy who shows up and makes place for other guys to show up. You know, because you've probably all seen. There's a lot of times like, hey, guys, I'm on vacation.

Oh.

All of a sudden, everybody else can't make group.

Sure.

So.

Right.

So, you know, part of. Part of the way I view my life and my commitment to these men is to just show up every week. And I learn from them, too. When there's a guy going through crisis, I mean, some of my biggest aha's have been by listening to another guy. I'll share an experience. There was. It was probably my first second group. And I'd been in there maybe three or six months. And this young guy had come in. He was in his early 20s. And he was sharing something. In all honesty, I can't even remember what he shared. But I had this amazing aha moment where I realized that part of the reason that my addiction had greatly subsided was because I had this father wound. And that I was never sure that my father loved me. But because these guys had expressed love for me, even though they knew all my darkest secrets, I was healed. I was accepted by these guys in a way I never had before. And I wasn't fully healed. I don't think we'll ever get there till we get to heaven. But I had had such great progress. And it was this kid sharing what he shared that I went, oh, my gosh. That is what has happened in my life. That's why I'm having such great progress in this second year of my journey, was because these guys in this group loved me. Even though they knew everything about me. And that's our greatest fear, is we want to be loved. Right. It's an amazing thing to know that people love you and they know everything about you. There's nothing to hide.

Yeah, well, I think, you know, you joked about it, Trevor, don't go to group. And I think that is people's challenge. If they're in the middle of something really hard, it's like, I don't want to go, I don't want to share about it. And we just need that reminder that groups are not performance groups. They're not about who's doing the best. They're places to get affirmed and loved. And so as a group member, I think that's responsibility number one is when a guy's really opening up about a hard week to just affirm them and say, we are so glad you're here and this is the right place and you're doing the right thing and we're with you and you're not alone. And the other thing I always think about, as someone shares about a rough week, you probably have 15 things that'll pop in your head about how to make it better, how to fix them, what they're doing wrong. And I just really want to caution, don't fix people. You need to let people come to their own answers. So we always ask permission to speak into someone's life. To ask questions is the most appropriate thing to do. But for sure we don't want to move into that advice giving mode. What I recommend for groups is share your experience, share what's worked in your life, and just leave it for them to do with what they want. But as soon as we move into fix it mode and telling a guy everything he's doing wrong, you know, that communicates a lot and makes people not want to come when they're in a tough place. Because we've had people come to a group that they share their crisis and that's all they needed to do that night. And they don't really want to talk a whole lot more about it. So you kind of read the situation and if a guy, you know, you ask, could I ask a couple questions? If they seem hesitant, you know, just let them be, you know, let them be with the group and take victory that they got there and they shared it, maybe the next week or two, then they'll be more open to some, some ideas and questions. But make sure you give a person that permission just to process and then not have to, you know, handle this assault of questions that come about what they should do next.

Well, and that's definitely a struggle for men's groups because we're naturally fixers. So really it comes down to do you trust that God is powerful enough to help this guy through this experience into freedom. And if the answer is yes, then you'd be way more likely not to share. Hey, this is what you should do, because that's my. Like, you're speaking right to me when you're saying that. No, no, he's speaking to me like, yeah, but it's true. Like, oh, bro, here, let. Like, I got it right here. Like, 1, 2, 3. Just do these and you'll be done. And what that ends up doing is it really. It shames that person, too, because that's all they've heard their whole life. I mean, that's what the church has told you. Just these three steps. And you're pure. So I appreciate you saying that because that helps me in my groups. Okay, so this has been good so far, guys. And crisis. We really just. We know there are people who may be listening right now who are in crisis. We know that this is such. Such a difficult position to be in, and we all have experience, so we know exactly what you're going through. So, guys, just as pure desire as our organization works with people, and for people who are in this situation, what resources do we have available for someone who's in crisis? Maybe not the first step or the first thing that they should do, but resources or tools they can use when they find themselves in this situation.

Well, first and foremost, you have very wise counselors here. This ministry is built on helping people with this addiction. We know what we're doing here. And I would say, in fact, there was a couple years ago, I actually made an appointment with Ted when he was still in the office all the time, just to come over and tell him thank you, because he was on the front line of this ministry. He was out there in front when nobody else was doing it that I knew. And I just so appreciated, you know, him fighting that battle when everyone else was afraid to do that. So this ministry, I mean, a lot of the ministries out there learn from us. Those ministries that have popped up, we're all on the same team. We're not competitors. But, you know, pure desire is one of the first and foremost in what they do, and we're good at it. And God's got his hand on this ministry.

A couple things that come to mind, you know, some of our resources, Stories for Men and Stories for Women. Because both those books are just 20 stories from people walking through their crisis. You know, really telling the story of what God did in their life. And to just read through and listen to other people talk about how God used their situations and to find commonalities I think can be incredibly helpful. And then also, you know, we've talked so much about the need for community and a group. And so if you're not in a group, you know, right there on the website we have the group feedback finder tool and looking for a group near you or reaching out to one of our group leaders on the website that could help find in your area, is there a church or a place for you to connect? Because if you're in a place where there aren't any groups around or in your church yet, finding a place you could maybe get to and even if it's, you know, 45 minutes away. My first group was a 40 minute drive and mine was too. That time became so valuable actually to process on the way to and from. And I found that was some of my best time of the week, both in the group and the car ride. So look and find. Would it be worth driving 40, 50 miles if you could get to a community where it would be safe to tell your story and get some help? So look on the group's map. If you don't find someone near you, reach out. Because often we know of churches that are doing groups just aren't on the map yet.

So good.

Well guys, this has been good. Hopefully really helpful to someone that's either experiencing some crisis or helping someone else that is. So as we wrap it up, let's end how we often do. What's some final encouragement you would give to someone who's experiencing crisis?

Boy, the first thing I would say is you gotta, you gotta find a pastor. Call Pure Desires Offices, something just to get some help. You know, I think guys so many times they, they're like, man, I just want to save some money. I don't want to pay for a counselor. I don't want to, you know, this will just blow over like everything else has in the past. I would say as a man of God, I mean, if that's where your heart is, then you need to be proactive. My mentor, you know, told me counseling is cheaper than a divorce. And he's right. And we're not just talking about money because there is a spiritual ripping apart that takes place in a divorce that has longer lasting effects than an empty wallet. So I would encourage anybody to seek some counseling, wise counsel, whether it's a pastor, Pure desire counselor, sex addiction counselor, whatever. The other thing I would say is you've got to get around some men that are willing to pray for you and hold you up and help you make good decisions. Because as Nick brought up earlier, we don't make good decisions when we're emotional. I know for me, that's one of my rules, is I don't make a decision when I'm emotional just because I know I make bad decisions. And when you have guys around you that you trust, you can get some good input, and they will help you walk through these minefields and make some good decisions. The other thing I would say is if you're in crisis and you're a child of God, then there's hope. And you have to. You have to look for that hope. Because if you extrapolate your current position into the future, you're going to be discouraged. And God does his best work in the middle of a crisis. Even when I was in the depth of mind, I didn't necessarily feel him. But some of the most remarkable times with God I've ever had were experienced when I didn't think he was there. And in hindsight, I'm like, that was God speaking to me. And so those become markers in your life for future crisis that might come across your path.

Yeah. Another thought from just from my perspective is there are people who are professionals at this, and there are people who've been trained and experienced this. And for those of you out there, maybe who are listening, who have gone to pastors in the past or have gone to elders or leaders or other men or women and have just been rejected or felt like it didn't work, that's why there are professionals. And so if you're at that place, if you're at a place where you haven't been accepted or haven't felt like anything has worked, whether it's peer desire counselors or other counselors or, you know, any sex addiction therapist, just reaching out to a professional, getting a consultation, spending some time with them, trying to get a grip on what's really going on is probably going to be the best thing as far as deciding what's next, what that process of healing, of restoration, of finding freedom, whatever it may be. It's never a bad idea to have a professional involved.

And I think what I would interject and say is the encouragement. Don't give up. Don't give up, because the voice in your head is probably telling you you're a failure, it's over. Just throw in the towel. Or maybe you confess some things to a spouse and they're angry and said some hurtful things, and so your reaction's like, well, fine, then I'm out of here. It's done. And that's the voice of the enemy, quite frankly. The enemy comes to steal, kill, and destroy. And the voice saying, give up, Quit. You're a loser. It's over. That's not the voice of God, and that's not the Holy Spirit. And so God is looking to bring things into redemption. That doesn't mean everything's going to go perfectly or get fixed. But if we have a God that's working for us to redeem, then that gives us hope to never give up, no matter how bleak it seems or feels right now, God will use this. God's at work. And so if you give up, then God can't redeem that. I mean, down the road still. Yeah, because he's a God of redemption. But in your present moment, you've got to be willing to continue partnering with what God wants to do next. And so just grab hold of him, hold on for dear life, and then watch and see what he does next.

Yeah.

You know, one other thing I want to add in this, Trevor, you made me think about this. When I had gotten busted and I was showing up for church one Sunday night and ended up sitting in the row next to the pastor's wife. And she said, hi, Mike. Hey, where's your wife? I said, oh, didn't you hear? We separated about four or five months ago. And she was shocked. Well, that night when I got home, I saw her post on Facebook, what's wrong with you guys looking at pornography? Just stop it. And I guess I bring that up to kind of reiterate what you just said is there's professionals that deal with this, and not every pastor understands what we're dealing with, with this addiction. And so if you hit the wrong person initially, it can just reinforce that shame that you've got, and it might even push you out the door of the church. So I really. I do like what you said, is we have professionals that know how to deal with this.

Yeah. And honestly, I mean, if you can't tell from listening to this episode, all three of us are passionate about being people who are safe and who are willing to have conversations with people about this, because we've been there and it hurts and it sucks. But we have seen the light and we have understood that God can redeem this and can bring about restoration and relationship restoration to ministry and restoration. Just who I am in Christ, understanding who that is. So, guys, this has been awesome. And anybody who's listening, we just want you to know that you are not alone. Exactly what Nick was saying. You are not alone. You're not the only person who's been through crisis. Crisis happens. And listen, as Mike actually said in the episode, if it's handled well, it can be a starting point to getting free from this. It can be such a great place, such a great on ramp to the freeway of your, of your healing. So this is not only for the addict, but also those who are betrayed. The crisis can just create a rock bottom experience in any relationship. And so in order to begin the healing journey, we find that, that rock bottom usually is a great place to start. And so if you are there, just know that this can be, this doesn't have to be the end of something. It can be the beginning of something. So again, there's no perfect way to handle this or crisis, but there are definitely helpful steps. So we hope that today's episode gave you some of those steps, some of those things, things to think about. And if you do find yourself in that place where crisis has occurred, please don't hesitate to reach out to us. Like we said, we have journeyed this road and we are happy to help and happy to walk alongside you and support you in this really difficult time. So thanks again, guys. Mike, thanks so much for hanging out and sharing, man. Appreciate it. And thank you for listening to the Pure Desire Podcast. If you like what you're hearing and want to keep up with the podcast, please subscribe. You can also rate and review our podcast and let us know how we're doing. For more information, check out our website, PureDesire.org and you can follow us on social media. EaredesirePDMI. Once again, that's EaredesirePDMI. We'll see you next time. Thanks for listening to the Pure Desire Podcast. For more information, check out our website www.puredesire.org. check in each week for new content on the podcast and we pray that it will help you find hope and freedom on your journey to purity.