053 – Creating Healthy Guardrails

Welcome to the Pure Desire Podcast where we partner with you to bring hope and freedom on your journey to purity.

Hey, guys, this is Dr. Ted Roberts. I hope you'll join me on September 15th at Good Shepherd Community Church for a Pure Desire men's conference. A time where you can pursue a life of integrity, strength, and leave a legacy of real significance. Learn to really kick the enemy's tail. If you're Interested, go to PureDesire.org events. Enjoy the podcast.

Hey there. I'm your host, Trevor Windsor, and we're so thankful you're taking time out of your day to hang out with us. I'm here as always with my co host, Nick Stumbo.

It's gonna be a bright, bright sunshiny day.

What if someone's listening and it's raining?

Well, it's gonna be. That's why it says it's gonna be. It's not a promise. It is. It's gonna be.

So do you believe weathermen when they tell you that it's gonna rain or it's either gonna be sunny on any certain day?

Not in Oregon, I don't believe them. Ever.

Okay. Alright. Well, we could continue this weather conversation, but we're gonna move forward. Back with us today is the man who is known as Father Flanagan, Mr. Harry Flanagan. Harry is a pastoral sex addiction professional and he is one of our clinicians on staff here. We're glad to have you back, Harry.

Glad to be here. I'm excited to be here.

Very good. We're excited to have you. So today's episode is all about creating healthy guardrails. So creating healthy and sustainable guardrails is really an important step in the recovery process from sexual addiction. So for those of you familiar with our three circles tool or relapse prevention tool, this will be focused on the middle circle. So we'll have a copy of that in the show notes for you to follow along to if you'd like. And really, we all should create and use healthy guardrails in our lives. And we hope that today's conversation will help bring some clarity to creating those guardrails as well as give some practical tips on. On how to implement them. So with that, Harry, let's just start with this. What exactly do we mean when we call something a guardrail?

Well, in the materials, Ted makes a clear distinction between the guardrails and the trip wires. I actually define those trip wires as a rumble step, a rumble strip.

Got it. Rumble strip.

Okay, thank you.

Yeah.

So listen, when we are in the midst the, the second circle, it's where we experience our triggers. Those triggers are the, are the trip wires or the rumble strips. Those are the ones that tell us that something's wrong. I'm, I'm heading towards a relapse if I don't make some corrective action. And in the process of doing that, we have to understand the nature of the, of the outer circle where we want people to live. You can't talk about tripwires and guidelines if you don't first deal with the outer circle, which is sexual health.

Right. That's what the outer circle is, is, is health. Emotional, spiritual, sexual.

Yeah, I would even, I would even go beyond that, Trevor, to say this is, this is where healthy living takes place, period.

Got it.

You know that you're dealing with emotional self care, spiritual self care, physical self care, social self care, and intellectual stimulation. That's where all that's taking place and that's where we want to live our lives. So when you hit a rumble strip, it says, I'm going off, I'm heading off course. You have to course. Correct. Well, the course correction is going to lead you back to green. The green behaviors of the outer circle.

Got it.

Does that make, I mean, does that make sense? Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So how did. So guardrails. How do they play out in that.

Well, the guardrails are you and I could come up with a great list of behaviors that should be in the green list for everybody. The problem is if I don't have buy in emotionally to those behaviors, either I've. Either they're pleasurable to me or I find them valuable. If I don't have that, I won't go there. And that's why so many people end up in relapse. So it's an important part of this healing process to be able to sit, to establish what are. So let's say you're. One of your trip wires is confrontation. You had a confrontation with your spouse. When that confrontation takes place, if I don't, if I don't have a plan in place that's going to take me back towards the healthy behaviors, I'm going to end up in the red zone in those behaviors I want to abstain from.

Yeah.

So you have to create a specific plan related to that specific trigger.

Right.

So confrontation might be me doing some deep breathing exercises, calling up my accountability partners, establishing a conversation with my wife to work through the conflict that we had.

Sure.

Those kind of things need to be.

In place because really, for me, it's always seemed like a boundary, but boundary tends to Be a word that not a lot of people like. That feels restricting. But a guardrail, that visual, I can get behind that visual. The idea of I'm putting stuff around the area that I know is bad for me and could hurt me. And so a guardrail, I'm really being proactive in protecting myself from allowing myself to go off the edge. Really?

Yeah. And I like that metaphor because if you think about the highway system, there are guardrails all over the place. And they're not over the cliff where the danger is. They're right up on the highway, which if they weren't there, you know, you could pull right over the edge. You could get a better view of canyons and cliffs, and. And it might feel like, oh, why is this annoying guardrail in place? But it's also what keeps you from going over the cliff.

Right.

So that you run into it first. And that's when I think of guardrails. What we're trying to create is a place where you start to feel pain before you're over the cliff. And just like you were saying, Harry, there are, like, in the green circle, that healthy living, there are some things that are in common for all of us, but you need to have some specific ones that you've bought into. And the same is true of guardrails. There are. There are many that a group could say pretty much everyone, that's a healthy guardrail. But if you don't have some very specific to you, it's not going to work very well. You've got to really link it, as Harry was saying, to your specific triggers.

That's good.

So, Harry, on this healing journey, talk a little bit more about why guardrails are so important. Maybe someone's listening. They're like, oh, come on. So long as I avoid the bad stuff, why do I need all these extra steps or guardrails in my life? So how would you maybe encourage someone who feels that way?

Well, you've already used the word, Nick. It's boundaries and boundaries. There's two kinds of boundaries. There is relational boundaries. How you going to choose to interact or not interact with certain people. And then there are internal boundaries. Boundaries are not legislated. That's what rules come from, legislation. Boundaries are what I have in place that acknowledges the fact that the person I'm talking with has or the situation I'm in. All options are on the table. I can't force anybody to do any behavior. But I have boundaries in place as to where I'll go and not go. This has to do with you? Establishing what are your values? What values do you use to determine how to move forward in life? For me, for example, when I'm in a counseling appointment, one of my values is being a grace filled truth teller. Because I've seen people use truth as a machete. And as painful, it's wounding. So truth by itself, I thought, can't be in the counseling office. It's got to be truth tied to grace. So that's a value that I have. When I'm with someone who is really hurting, the value I use to care for that relationship might be empathy, you know, being able to be compassionate to the struggle that they're in. And I have boundaries that the boundaries allow me to continue to live based on what my values are. The problem is that most of us, when we start coming into the healing process, we could generally throw off some names of things that we value, but we really haven't made the determination. These are the values I want to live by.

And yeah, you know, as you're saying that though too, I think of the other side that. Cause in my mind, I think of it really like the lines and the lanes that are on the street and that those aren't just put in place for your safety, they're also put in place for other people's safety. And so the idea of guardrails or boundaries or really these practices that you're putting in place are not only for your benefit, but also so that you don't hurt other people around you. So it's protecting relationships, it's protecting those people and really their hearts. Because, you know, one of the. I think the biggest lies that we are told today is that our life is all about just me. That's it. My life is about me, but it's not. My life affects my decision. My words affect other people around me.

Absolutely. And that's why many highways now actually have rumble strips down the middle to let you know when you're crossing the.

Lane, they know what they're doing.

Yeah, that's a good point. You know, when I think of how important guardrails are, the phrase that comes to mind is it's just doing things that I may not want to do so that I get to do the things I most want to do. So for an example, a guardrail in my life is not to be on any device or screen when everyone else is in bed. Sometimes that's hard. It's like, boy, it'd be really convenient just to check out baseball scores or watch tv. But I know that could create danger in my life. And what I most want to do is have a healthy, fulfilling relationship with my wife. And so I've made some choices about things that, boy, they're not great. But it ensures that I get to do what I most want to do. And so for a lot of people, guardrails are just making some value decisions of what is worth protecting in my life and making sure I'm available for those things and denying myself other things that could get me in trouble.

So let's press into the idea of implementing a guardrail, or really, let's just ask this question. What makes a guardrail a healthy guardrail and what makes one that is potentially unhealthy?

An unhealthy guardrail is when we move into the realm of black and white thinking. This is where we end up being really critical of ourselves for failing. In Matthew 22:37 40, Jesus gives the two great commandments. You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength. And the second is like it, you shall love your neighbor as yourself. I don't think we're really good at the second commandment. You know, we don't know how sometimes it's reversed. I don't know how to love myself like I love my neighbors. You know, we have to be able to give what, what I call common humanity, that we are giving the same value to our lives as we do to other people's lives and their, their journey. And so you're learning how to establish boundaries has to do with how you can flourish and how the people around you can flourish. It's not about restrictions. Nick, in your comments earlier, really hit it on the head. This is about where I can really most flourish in my life, given my personality and my particular relationship with God.

I think that's a good point, Harry, about black and white thinking. What came to mind for me was legalism. How the boundary is, or a guardrail is just a legalistic thing. And what that means is I'm finding my sense of value or self worth because of what I do or don't do versus the relationships I have and my true identity in Christ. And so if we're becoming legalistic about, you know, I never watch now, I'm not thinking of a good example, but you know, if it just becomes a legalism where now I feel good about myself simply because of what I don't do, then I'm kind of turning the guardrail into something it isn't. And I just think that's a valuable reminder.

Oh, you Know, this is, this is really important. One of the, one of the triggers that most of us are not always aware of is shame. And one of the ways we compensate when we're feeling shame is finding fault with other people, kind of leveling the playing field. And so that's a destructive coping behavior. Anything that is not mutually beneficial to you and beneficial to the significant people that you love, it becomes a destructive or unhealthy. Not just guardrail, it becomes a destructive way of entering into any relationship.

You know, as I was thinking through this question, I think the thing that really is the determiner for me, is it pushing me into community or is it pushing me into isolation? Because I think that there are some guardrails that people would look at and say, yeah, that makes sense. That might be helpful or healthy, but really what it's doing is it's just pushing me to avoid people or situations or community. And really it's just a way. And maybe that's kind of getting to the whole black and white thing is I have to be super, super serious about this. And there's no leeway, there's no grace here. It's just this is the way it's got to be. And that can really cause me to just isolate. And so I'm learning that, that it's got to be something that pushes me into community and pushes me towards relationship with other people.

And now you're talking about the outer circle with this in our relapse prevention plan. Because the biblical concept that's present is community. You know, we have to learn how to be members one of another. The Old Testament prophet who was talking to a woman said, we're going to give you, we're going to give you everything. You know, how can I help you? I really want to help you because you've been a blessing to us. And she says, I don't need anything. I'm a member of my community. She didn't need anything because she learned to rely on the community. What happens in our pure desire small groups is men are learning how to have actually have each other's back and to care about what's happening. And it's breaking the pattern of isolation that is a key part of the healing. Even in the counseling office. I see a lot of the great work that happens is happening in our small groups, not just in the one on one counseling.

Well, and that also will happen in women's groups as well. Even on the betrayal side. Having that safe place and that atmosphere to really be open and to share it's really powerful.

Yes, absolutely. We all need to learn how to live in community.

Yeah. This is. This is so good, you guys. So we're talking a lot about the guardrails and kind of the big picture, but let's dive in a little deeper now and get into some of the nitty gritty of how does this work? So, Harry, what should the process of creating guardrails look like? How could someone go about creating guardrails for themselves?

I. You know, Nick, I can make this available if we want to have this online, But I've got a list of probably 60, 70 value that I give to my people, I counsel with so that they can go through and say, Here are the 10 most important values in my life. And it's based on those values. I have them create their guardrails. And then I'm also making sure that they're making a list of what are the things that trip me up, what are the things that trigger me to want to go to those behaviors that I want to dismiss from my life?

Yeah. You know, two things that I think of is really including other people, I think is really important. Making these decisions by yourself and in isolation usually doesn't work out. And I speak very directly from my personal experience when I implement things without including others in. I am very, very good at talking myself out of using those things. I'm very persuasive when I want to be to myself, but then also is doing it at a time where crisis isn't happening. You know, Nick, I've heard you talk a lot about this at our events. The idea of, you know, you don't fix the sail when you're in the middle of the storm. You need to fix it when it's. When we're at calm seas. You know, it needs to be something that's done in time where there isn't a lot of relational tension or there isn't crisis happening, or there aren't any legal stuff going. It's got to be at times when you can really be intentional and focus and you're not just emotionally responding to your situation.

It's not about just avoiding the unhealthy, destructive addictions or coping behaviors. 25 years ago, I came to Ted in a place of brokenness and started my healing process because of my addictions. Today, I have three meetings a week with the significant people of my life where I have accountability. And I will tell you that those are the most important meetings of my week. Not just because I'm being accountable, to not go back into addictions. But because the value of the depth of those relationships, they enrich my life. When we stay in touch with our community, it's not just to avoid the addictions. It is to build a community where we're looking for win win situations. There's gonna be seasons in my relationship with you, Trevor, or you, Nick, where I am going to be on the receiving end of what you have to offer me because I'm in a place of neediness, because we all have needs.

Sure.

And there's going to be times where I get to be the one on the other end of the line and be giving to you as you have need. That's mutuality. That's important in any healthy relationship.

One other aspect I think of when it comes to creating the guardrails and how do you go about that, is making sure to connect it to your arousal template. And if you've never worked with that tool, it's a really important one because it's really helping you identify what your specific triggers are. Just like you've been talking about Harry. What are those rumble strips in your life that start to make you realize, oops, something's up here. And then creating guardrails specifically for that trigger. So if you can't name and list your significant triggers, you're going to have a hard time coming up with guardrails. So it's almost like taking one step back and first saying, well, here's all the areas, locations, and physical senses and emotions that create problems for me. Now you're aware of your triggers, then simply ask, well, what's the best way to create health around these issues? And now you're getting into creating guardrails.

So, Nick, that's a great. That's great input. There are some really specific beginning points, though. The 12 step folks would tell you that the majority of relapses that take place are based on resentment. So you have to ask yourself, am I carrying resentment Now? You know, that would be added to my list of triggers, but they also use an acronym called halt, Hungry, Angry, Lonely and Tired.

I've been hangry before.

Yeah, I'm hangry right now.

So those are great beginning points for you to become aware. But if you are married or you have close friends, ask them what they've seen in you. That seems to be a trigger to take you places that you really don't want to go.

Okay, so we've talked about a little bit. Right now we're just talking about the idea of including other people in that process of creating guardrails. So who specifically should we include when we're creating guardrails?

It should be the most important people that God has placed into your life. If you have a close relationship with a pastor, he would be a resource for you. Certainly if your spouse is interested in your healing, he or she will have contributions to what they see. Because we all have blind spots. We really don't know ourselves that well. We can't see, always see what's going on. And so asking them if you have accountability, group family members, close friends, all of them can contribute to this. Because remember, vulnerability, our culture perceives as a weakness, but is actually a strength. You know, a vulnerability requires you to be in a place of uncertainty, where you are required to risk. And when you risk, there's emotional exposure. Which is a nice way of saying that I feel the. The fear and the anxiety in the moment. But. But that is also the same things that are required for an act of courage or an act of faith. They all three require the very same circumstances. So for you to be willing to turn to your family and friends, the significant people of your life, and say, you know, I'm trying to work on growing greater self awareness. What do you see that seems to trigger me when. When you see unhealthy behaviors in me. Me?

Yeah, yeah.

When it occurs to me as we talk about including other people, that it really helps us go against the very thing that's the root of addiction. Because at the root of addictions is pride and arrogance, that sense, I can do it by myself, I can do it alone. I'm going to fix this. I don't need you. And so involving other people is a step into humility. That vulnerability you're talking about, Harry, to just say, I can't fix it alone. I want your help, I'm inviting your help. And the humility itself is part of the change. And then actually receiving people's input and listening to it is creating that atmosphere for health. Because now I'm moving out of isolation, I'm moving out of arrogance, into vulnerability, into community and all the things that can be created. So I guess just that encouragement, if someone's listening and they're like, man, I do not want to talk to other people about these things. I just want to fix this by myself. You're actually in danger of perpetuating the issues that are causing the problem. So you've got to break through and involve others in the process.

The three distinctive traits of an addictive personality is isolation, because you. You avoid intimacy because intimacy requires vulnerability. Or number two, is Passivity or passive aggressiveness, you're tired of failing, so you pass the baton.

That one's my favorite.

Yeah.

You pass it to other. Other. Other people. And if you're passive aggressive, you'll let someone else make the decision, then you'll be critical of their decisions. And then the third is. I don't know why it's always last procrastination.

Yeah.

And so when I go through that with my clients in the counseling office, I'm especially getting the spouse nodding their head. All three of these tend to apply to us in that. And so in isolation. This is why isolation is number one. You cannot get healed in isolation.

Correct? Yes.

Your body even knows the difference between you being in community and you're being in isolation. You try to fix yourself in the cave and you come out, and now you're among people. You revert to how you have always coped when you are surrounded by people, and you'll turn back to the old addictive behaviors.

Here's my guess. When God said that it's not good for man to be alone, he didn't mean that everybody needs to get married. He knew that in his triune nature, relationship is important and is essential to living a life that's godly, living a life that's healthy. And so when I look at Genesis and I hear that, that's what I hear. I hear you have to be in community. So, Harry, those three things are awesome.

There's another side to that story too, because I think this is. And I agree with you completely, Trevor, because this is the story of David and Jonathan. He was closer than a. Jonathan was closer to a brother with David, you know, and that meant they had their. Even in the midst of his father, the king, he had David's back. He was protecting him. And in our groups, for both the men and the women, when we're truly sharing our stories with each other, there are bridges to intimacy that begin to take place. And now I have men who have been out of counseling for several years, and they may occasionally touch base with me, but they are ongoing in touch with the men who they walk through healing with. They are lifetime. They're connected in a lifetime to one another. It may be just only one or two guys in the group, but there'll be somebody who will be more than a brother to you in this midst, in the midst of this.

All right, friends, sometimes when we start this journey, we're really motivated to change. So we're all about boundaries and guardrails and maybe almost in an unhealthy way, like I'm just going to create such high walls that I can never act out again. But we know that change is long term, that we want lasting freedom. That involves brain change and a change in how we do life. So Harry, along those lines, how can we ensure that guardrails will continue working for us long term and not just be one more attempt at a quick fix?

Well, first of all, when we look at guardrails in the state where you.

Live.

Each road has different guardrails. I'm not a big fan of King James, but I love King James.

Sin are you?

Yes. I confess in King James and Genesis there's something I really like and that is that there never is a reference to the journey of Abraham. It is the journeys of Abraham. And so we have to continually evaluate our guardrails. There are guardrails that probably right now don't need to be used, but there are some new guardrails that we need to have in place based on where we are in life. So we have to evaluate is this guardrail really benefiting me right now? There something I need to replace it with? Is there new situations or circumstances where I have to have new forms of protection? You're maybe in a new job or the job you're in has changed. Now all of a sudden you are finding yourself in a situation where you're being triggered by a co worker. You need to have guardrails related to the real life situations you find yourself. And so you have to be thinking, what do I need to do in this circumstance to have protection in place? And I have to have a clear idea with this new situation. What are the coping behaviors that are going to help me get back to the lifestyle I want to be leading? And it always will come back to what values do I really want to live by? And by that I'm not talking about relationships only. I'm talking about when no one else is around. What are the values that I want to embrace so that whether people are seeing me or not, I'm living out my values. I don't have to wonder who saw me do what because I'm living the same values in private as I am in public.

What it makes me think about what Jesus said, how, you know, the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. And there's a sense of that, like the guardrails were there to help you. You're not there for the purpose of the guardrails. So it's not like set it and forget it and never change it again. These are, in a sense, living, breathing things that adapt with us and as our life changes. And I love how you put that, Harry. As our circumstances change, new jobs, new scenarios, we're in a new level of freedom, there may be things that need to adjust. And I think if we're aware that a life without guardrails is never wise, but the guardrails may look and feel different depending on what road I am on. That's just. That's such great advice.

There's a pastor friend of mine that I love and enjoy. His name is Wayne Cadaro. He pastors a large church on Oahu.

Lucky guy.

Yeah.

Yes, he is.

Yes, he is. But he likes to ride a tractor in Veneta.

Yeah.

Here in Oregon. But, but, but he talked about us being 55 gallon drum barrels. So if you would imagine a drum barrel with a funnel on it and a spigot down towards the bottom. I have discovered that, that when I emotionally run dry is when I. One of the ways I end up moving towards relapse. So, so I have to make sure that in my healthy behaviors, I'm doing behaviors that emotionally fill me up. I have to build that into my schedule. Nick earlier talked about checking in on the baseball scores because for Nick, that is a little charge of something pleasurable to him.

That depends on how the Twins are playing, though, let's be honest.

Yeah, the Twins. We got to talk about this.

Yeah, that's, that's the next, the next episode. We'll talk about the Twins and the AL Central.

But we have to, we have to create behaviors in these healthy behaviors. We have to look at what fills you up and what drains you. Because there are behaviors that we're required to do that drain us. But we have to build into our lifestyle those behaviors that will fill you up. So one Thursday afternoon, Ted came to me and gave me a list of things that he needed to have done on Tuesday. And I had a full load of counseling along with that. And I'm feeling overwhelmed with this. And that evening I'm driving somewhere with my wife and I get a phone call from my buddy who says, hey, Harry, I've got a ticket for you on the 40 yard line, Row 15 at Austin Stadium for the Saturday's game. Would you like to come? And for those of you who don't know, that means the University of Oregon.

Yeah.

And so I immediately thanked him and hung up. And Debbie turned to me and says, are you crazy? Now I don't know if she just wanted me out of the house or not. But she said, you are so overwhelmed right now. You need to be emotionally filled so that you have the energy to do this, these difficult tasks that you have before you. And so I called my friend up and went to the game and amazingly enough, I had everything done on Tuesday as scheduled. And I did it with a lot of energy because I did something that filled me up. So for those of you who are not sports fans, not everything related to sports fills you up, but it's, you're finding things within your values that emotionally charge you up so that you, you can bring vitality and energy into your life, in your relationship with your family members, and be a good co worker and a good employee at work.

So as you guys are talking, though, I'm really, I'm hearing that guardrails are not only to help protect us, but they're also to help create health. So it's, it's both ends, really, from both perspectives. And, and so in that whole idea, will a guardrail be there forever? You know, is how do you, I guess, how do you know when a guardrail maybe has become unhealthy or potentially needs to change? So, I mean, and I'm thinking of it both from, you know, protecting me from things that I know will hurt me and other people, but then also keeping me in health if. Is it possible for those things to change?

Absolutely. So all of us have experienced, everyone has been around a baby. So what happens in a home that has steps and you have a small child, you have a fence up on the stairs, so that child's not going to take a tumble down the stairs?

I currently have one of those in my house.

Yes. Right now. Yes. And that isn't for you, Trevor.

It's a wonderful thing, I'll tell you that right now.

Yes, it is. But there's going to be a day when your child is going to outgrow that and they no longer be in place. Well, as you and your accountability team look at your guardrails, you can determine based on your experiences what guardrails need to be in place and maybe what needs to be removed in those guardrails because it's no longer a temptation for you.

Yeah. You know, as you're saying that too, I'm thinking it's not just. Again, I'm just going to stress the importance of having other people involved in the creating of guardrails, because when you get to that point, you can see how that person responds if you want to change it, or let's say there's because for me, a Guardrail is just not being on Twitter. I always end up at places I don't want to be. And so I've taken it off of every device and I have guardrails in place where I can manage it from, from work, where it's in public places and there's all the accountability in the world set up. There are times where I wanna go back to that, but I've had friends over the years who have said, why are you on Twitter? I saw you send a tweet last night, what's going on? And if I include them, then they can help me. And so if they respond negatively, I can be like, okay, you're right, I'm sorry. I talked myself into getting back into it. And at that point I know it's too soon or is maybe something that will never change for me if other people are able to respond, respond well.

And having other people involved is so key. And you've heard me say this, that one of the dangers we have, whether we're just coming out of addiction or maybe even a ways down the road, is we tend to view ourselves as more ready than we are that we're ready for change. Like, hey man, I feel great, I'm doing great. And if we become the barometer of change, and you said it earlier, Trevor, if it's up to me, I change things too soon when I shouldn't be. And so other people kind of become that grounding stabilizing for that really continue our self awareness. And if a spouse or close friend says, boy, I think that may be a little arrogant on your part to get rid of that right now, then we need to be entirely open to that because they're doing it out of love, they see things and they want us to be healthy. And so as I've said, you give the keys of change to someone else so that you can't just change it by yourself.

And knowing that that person, they don't view their role as a killjoy, they're trying to give you joy, they're trying to give you health. And so when you trust those certain people, knowing that the perspective they're coming from is not self serving, that is going to be all about trying to help you thrive.

So this is where we bring in one of the dangers that's going to take us down a side road that we really don't want to go on. We need to have not just accountability, folks who love us and are committed to us because if they don't understand the nature of addiction, we can manipulate them to do what we want them to do because they don't understand addiction. And we don't want people to be in a pure desire group for the rest of their life. What we want is to equip them what it's like to work in community. And they have to build a community outside of pure desire for when they've completed the counseling or believe God has. Leading them away from the groups. We want them to not go into isolation. Because when I first started to lead pure desire groups, I ended up overseeing 28 groups at East Hill. And when I was involved with that, I saw right away all. I started to have these people who had been sober for a number of years, and they were coming to me saying, hey, life has changed. My wife and I are now chauffeurs for the kids, taking them here and there and everywhere. And. And I think it's time for me to walk away from group. And it was almost like clockwork. Four to six months after they left the group, they went right back into isolation and ended up in relapse. And they came back to me with their tail between their legs. And so what we need to do is make sure. Don't. Deception begins with you deceiving yourself. Make sure you have people you're accountable to. Who. Who, Number one, they love and care about you. And number two, that they have an understanding of the addictive mindset.

They know your story.

Yes. And they understand the nature of how addiction works. So they can challenge you when they find you isolating. They can challenge you when you. As you described in your story, Trevor, going back to Twitter, all of those things are taking place. So you want to have people who have the knowledge and the love and caring for you to be able to speak into your life. Because, Nick, you mentioned earlier, humility. Well, a major part of humility and wisdom is to be teachable. But if you want life on your terms, you're going to end up going. You're going to run right through the guardrails. You're going to trip all the tripwires, and you're going to head down a path, and you're going to end up having a crash and burn that you said you didn't want, but you got there because you chose to trust yourself instead of God and the significant people that you have surrounded yourself with.

Well, this is good stuff. I'm over here taking notes, writing things to myself. Like, I'm going to add that and talk about that. So, Harry, it's been awesome to have you here. We want to wrap up the way that we always do on these podcasts. And that's to ask what's some final encouragement that you would give listeners along the lines of the guardrails in their life?

The guardrails and the trip wires are both important for you. The trip wires tell you that something's wrong. That's why I call it a rumble strip. My wife tells me sometimes I drive by Braille. But the reality is that these guardrails are there to help you live out a life based on the values that are important to you. They're there to help you enrich your life, not hold you back. And so for those of you who struggle with avoidance, it is you discovering these are the. I would suggest you finding a list of values and saying, what are the 10 most important values that I want in my life? Begin the process of learning to make decisions based on what your values are instead of what you were emotionally being driven to. That would be a good starting point. But this is a journey that's well worthwhile and will enrich your life. As Paul tells us in Ephesians 3, God's going to give to you exceedingly, abundantly above what you can ask and even think.

My last thing, my final encouragement really, is to do whatever it takes, regardless of how other people respond. And I am speaking directly from my experience. There are things that I, you know, the Twitter example I give is something that, honestly, there are times where I feel ashamed about the fact that there are people out there who can do Twitter and be on there consistently and enjoy what it has to offer and live healthy. And it's difficult for me. But I have got to the point where I know that if I don't do it, I'm gonna end up in a place I never wanted to be. And I keep continually, every time I go back to it, I find myself there. And so in that, you know, you guys have talked about humility. That's probably the biggest thing, is just willing to. Am I more invested in my health, or am I more invested in how I look to other people? Because I think that if your answer to that question is, I want to be healthy, then you will do what it takes. So my encouragement really is just be courageous enough to do what it takes, even if it makes you look foolish or stupid or seem like you're a pervert or can't control yourself. Do whatever it takes to be healthy.

Yeah, that's good. And I'd say my final encouragement is to look at the guardrails in your life as opportunities, because Sometimes they can feel like such negatives. I can't do this. I don't do that. I say no to this. But instead, what's the opportunity that's created instead? So from one of my examples where I said I'm not on screens or devices when others are in bed, that can be seen as a negative or an opportunity, an opportunity to be in God's word more, to read good books. And I've taken advantage of that opportunity a lot more because now I've eliminated something that's not fulfilled, that's not filling my life. So in every one of these guardrails, I think we can just see it as something I don't get to do or some freedom that was taken away. But instead look at the positives, look at the opportunity to grow mentally, emotionally, relationally, spiritually, physically, and allow these things to be a part of building your health and your sobriety, rather than seeing them just as, like, fences you can't go through. Because I think that mindset makes a big difference.

So this episode was awesome. I feel like we could just talk and talk and talk, but for the sake of you, the listener, we will stop now. But just know that creating guardrails is one of those things that really does make sense when you're thinking about it, about getting free from sexual addiction, the importance of knowing your boundaries and staying self aware in a practical way. It makes sense that it's easy to gain traction that way or begin gaining that traction in your sobriety. But honestly, guardrails can be something that we carry lots of shame about. It's something we overlook and tend to minimize or moralize our way around it. And so just know that it, like Harry is really hammered home that humility is such an important part of. To creating your guardrails. So the reality really, of this addiction is that unless you do what it takes to get healthy, you're not going to get healthy. So again, just. This is just my final. My final thought is really just do whatever it takes and ask this question. This is what you need to ask. Would you rather look normal and remain unhealthy or potentially be seen as extreme, but break free from this addiction? And it really all comes down to how you answer that question. So take some of the time to look at the three Circles tool that we have in the show notes and start putting up healthy guardrails? So, Harry, thanks so much. We really appreciate your time.

I'm glad to be here. Thanks, guys.

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