055 – Stories Of Healing: Paul Zunker

Welcome to the Pure Desire Podcast where we partner with you to bring hope and freedom on your journey to purity.

Hey guys, this is Dr. Ted Roberts. I hope you'll join me on September 15th at Good Shepherd Community Church for a Pure Desire men's conference. A time where you can pursue a life of integrity, strength, and leave a legacy of real significance. Learn to really kick the enemy's tail. Registered go to PureDesire.org events. Enjoy the podcast.

Hey there. I'm your host, Trevor Windsor. And we're so thankful you're taking time out of your day to hang out with us. I'm here with my co host as always, Nick Stumbo.

Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

That's really. That's it? That's all you have?

Did you need more than that one? Took me like a long time to come up with.

Okay, okay. So it was episode 52 that you did the whole I wanna pump you up thing. And I got so excited. I felt like there was this new standard of intros that was coming from you. And then I am now disappointed as of episode 55.

Hey, it's a once a year kind of thing. So episode 104, all of something really great. Until then, you try doing different intros for 55 episodes. It adds up.

There's a reason why I haven't and you're proving it right now. Okay, so today we have another story of healing. So, so these are episodes where we'll talk with people who've had first hand experience with addiction or the effects of addiction and have found hope and healing. So it'd be one thing if me and Nick really just sat here and talked each week about how this Pure Desire stuff works. But we want to be able to give those who've experienced healing to share their stories in an attempt really to encourage and give hope to anyone out there who might be struggling and listening. So our guest today is Paul Zunker. Paul is the director of Purity Ministries at Grace Church in Eden Prairie, Minnesota. It's really cold since we've been there. That's just one thing I'll say about Eden Prairie in Minnesota. Paul is also a regional group leader for Pure Desire, overseeing the Great Lakes area. Paul, we're excited to get you here, hear your story, man. Welcome to the PD podcast.

Hey guys, I'm trying to come up with something creative as my intro, but Nick's used all of them already, so I resort to hey guys, thanks for having me on. I'm glad to be with you.

That was pretty good. I'm not Gonna lie. Yeah, that was pretty good. So, Paul, we're really happy to have you on the podcast, man, and we just want to give you a little bit of time if you can give us bit of background, some of your upbringing, just a little bit of that before we jump in. Let our listeners get to know you a little bit.

Yeah, for sure. My story starts out with I was conceived out of an affair. My birth mother had an affair back in the middle 70s. So I came out of a time where abortion was very common. So that's the first part of my story. It's really by God's grace that I feel that I'm here. So. But was adopted when I was 6 week old, 6 weeks old by the parents I have now, which was another testament to God's grace because they are two people that just love the Lord and they really are two of my best friends that I have today in my life. But I grew up an only child in a little town about a half hour outside of Milwaukee, Wisconsin. So I have to throw a go Pack go in here as well, because I know you got all these Seahawks people out there.

We have listeners all over the country, so we need to make sure not to alienate anyone.

Right. But there are two of us in this episode that are die hard Packer fans, so let's just, let's wave that flag while we can.

I, I thought we could gang up on Nick a little bit today with that, but I'll leave that in your hands, Trev. You can, you can figure that one out as we go along. But grew up in a Christian home with parents that really love the Lord. And they didn't just talk about it, they exhibited it. You know, I always say I saw my dad's Bible in a different spot every morning by his chair. So I knew that he had a, an active relationship with the Lord, but attended a little non denominational church just outside of Milwaukee, Wisconsin until I moved here in 97. So that's a quick background. I don't know if you want a little bit more than that, but that's just my upbringing and kind of how everything started for me.

No, it was great. Thanks, Paul.

Yeah. So, Paul, we're here to really dive into your story on sexual addiction and what it can do in someone's life to really bring them to room, but also more importantly, how God redeems. And so let's just kind of start into your story with you sharing a bit about when did you know lust and sexual struggle? When did it really become an issue in your life and what brought you to points along the way of realizing you really needed help?

I think there's really two distinct answers to that question that I have. It's, you know, when did I realize it was an issue? And then when did I decide to get help? Because those two things didn't come at the same time.

Sure.

I grew up, you know, growing up in a Christian home. I had those godly values instilled at me from a really young age. So I always knew that pornography was wrong, that I shouldn't be looking at it. But as it grew into the addiction that it became in my life, the deeper I got, you know, the more I utter that phrase that we hear all the time, you know, I can. I can stop looking at any time I want to, Right? So I really was able to deceive myself and never saw it as an issue for myself, really. It was just something I figured I could stop whenever I wanted to. So as a result, I. I guess I never believed I needed to get help for it, even though I knew it was wrong. So it took me getting busted, really, to finally make me realize how deep into it that I really was and that I needed help quickly. So part of my story is that it escalated beyond the screen. And when I was at the height of my addiction, I touched my stepdaughter in ways I really never should have on multiple different occasions. And then one evening, I went to my bedroom. I found her and my wife sitting on the bed together. They were both crying. And I immediately knew that it all come out. And from that moment on, I really knew I needed to get help. So I knew it was wrong for a long time, but never figured it was an issue that I needed to get help for until I got busted.

So then once you got busted, right, once, you know, once this came out and you got revealed, I mean, what was that like? Just talk about that moment. Talk about when you really first experienced that. What was that like?

It was awful. Um, it was. It was kind of the accumulation of things that, you know, are wrong in your life, but nobody's ever going to find out. All coming out to the surface at once. So I immediately started talking to my wife about what led it up to there, let her know that I had an addiction to pornography. And it was kind of a complete full disclosure before I ever even knew what that was, all within the course of, like, an hour discussion with her. And it was awful. And I think she knew to some degree that I struggled with it, but she didn't know how deep it really went. But there's just a flood of emotions that really went through my mind at that point, ranging from, okay, I can fix this and make it better, to I'm going to spend the rest of my life in jail to I don't have any idea what to do. I just really need help from God. And that's kind of what started me down the road of healing, is I knew I didn't know what to do finally, because I'd always been someone who could fix things, and I didn't know how to fix this one.

So, I mean, you talk about how you knew it was wrong. Growing up in a Christian home, you knew pornography was wrong. You knew that masturbation and all this was not the right thing to do. And since you knew that, I'm sure there were attempts or really you worked to try to stop doing these things. What are some of those? What attempts had you made to find healing? That never really worked.

I remember installing Covenant eyes on my stuff a number of different times, number of years before I got busted, just because I wanted to stop looking at porn. You know, I knew that without some accountability, that would never happen. So I. I made my dad one of my accountability partners. And I just knew I needed somebody watching what I was doing or I wasn't gonna stop. So I installed it. That lasted probably about six months. And then I. I just didn't want to pay for it anymore, so I canceled it, uninstalled the software. And the financial part was. Was 100% an excuse, which just sounded really good to my accountability partners there. And I don't remember exactly what I said to them when I took it off, but I remember that I hadn't. I really had stopped watching porn completely in that time. Because I'm the kind of guy that knowing that somebody's watching where I'm going is enough to deter me from doing it, because I just don't want them seeing that. So that really worked for me. And I told my partners at the time that I was free from porn, and I believe was a time where I was sober. But now I can look back now, knowing what I know now, and it was by no means any kind of freedom at all. It was just a binge purge cycle. And. And I was really looking at the purge time as being, oh, my gosh, I'm free. So I'm. I'm great. I don't need this anymore. I think I added it on about a year or so later, again, just because clearly I wasn't Free from it. But the only time I remember getting really serious about stopping watching porn was about two weeks before I got busted, actually. And I really had drawn a line in the sand, and I knew I needed to start getting things right with God because I wasn't at all in his word and didn't have a relationship with him at all. But like I said, you know, a couple weeks later, everything came crashing down. So those were a couple times I can remember distinctly trying to stop.

Yeah. So, Paul, you experienced something that I think a lot of people who struggle with sexually compulsive behavior, you know, they. They spend a lot of time convincing themselves, oh, it will never go too far. It will never get out of control. It'll never land me into something illegal or where I could end up in prison. And yet, over and over, we hear people tell their stories and say, I never thought I would be here. I never thought this would happen to me. And. And it happened to you. So as all that came out, you know, what were some of the hurdles that you had to face on your way to finding healing and freedom? What. What did you have to overcome to see freedom start to take place in your life?

It was all super smooth and easy.

Great episodes over. Moving on.

Yeah. Thanks for having me, guys.

Good luck, everybody.

Man, I mean, when I got. When I got busted, you know, my wife took the kids and left within a couple of days of everything coming out and had really minimal contact with her for, you know, about a year and a half, maybe a little bit longer, and didn't have any contact with my kids at all for probably, I would say, close to a little over two years, probably. So for a guy going through recovery, you know, trying to get his life straightened out, not having the people that I had finally realized were the most important people in my life weren't around me. So that was really difficult. And, you know, looking back at. I had just really neglected my wife and my kids and didn't spend time with them. And everything else became more important in my life because there's. There's always more to an addiction than. Than just what you're doing, right? Whether you're drinking alcohol or watching pornography. You know, there was so many things in my life, you know, going back to my story of. Of being adopted, you know, I wrestle with a lot of abandonment issues, and there was just a lot of stuff I can look back at now and realize were issues that I didn't know were back then. And I just really. It disconnected me from my family. So I wanted to get better for me. But I also was in a period of time where I really desperately wanted to get right with my family, and they weren't around. So that was. That was really difficult. And because of all that, I ended up spending four months in jail as well because of my actions with my stepdaughter. And so that was really difficult there as well. I got busted, and it was August of 2011, and by November that same year, I started some pretty intensive counseling, and I had started my seven Pillars group, too, as well. So I missed four months with my guys in my group because I had to go on vacation for four months and couldn't get to my group and be with those guys. So that was really tough for me as well. But I guess those were some physical hurdles, you know, not seeing my kids and my wife and being in jail. But I wrestled a lot with shame as well. Just a ton of guilt and shame, I guess, when I looked at how deeply I had hurt my stepdaughter, my wife, and my kids, and those closest to me, and with it being as public of a story as it was for me, because I was the chairman of the Republican Party in a major metro county out here. So as soon as the news media got a hold of what had happened, it blew up into a pretty large news story over here. There was just a ton of shame around that, realizing I'd subjected them to the shame of my very public story, too, as well, and hurt all of them. So that pulled me down a lot, moving through my recovery.

So, Paul, along the way, you had to deal with a lot of the consequences of your actions and behaviors, and often it is those consequences, the harsh reality of what we've done, that starts to create change. So how would you describe it in your story? Where did you feel yourself shifting from just dealing with the consequences of your behavior to actually beginning to experience freedom and change? What was that transition? Where did it click that you began to experience the path to freedom as opposed to just facing the consequences for what you'd done?

Yeah, it was pillar one, lesson two and three in the old blue workbook anyhow. And that's when it really started to click for me. I started understanding that I really was addicted, and I understood how my brain physically changed to get me there, and that started to break a lot of the chains of shame for me as well. So I didn't use it as an excuse. But, you know, I finally saw, really, for the first time, that there were physical things happening inside of my noggin there that that Made it really impossible for me to stop when I wanted to.

Yeah.

And it just really started to take away that shame aspect for me where I was just saying, well, I was just some really deeply messed up dude who did some pretty bad things. And given what I had done, I figured there was just really no hope of me ever getting better. But through those lessons in that particular pillar, I understood that if I put in the hard work to try to change that I could. My brain actually could return to where God wanted it to be and where he created it to be. And that was actually something that helped me from relapsing, too, because I didn't want to put in all that work to change and then relapse and look at something I knew I shouldn't be or go back and masturbate even once, and I would be physically losing ground that I worked really hard. So that's really when it clicked for me, is when I understood that there's not an excuse, but there was a reason why I couldn't stop. And it wasn't just because I was some. Just some bad hombre that was just choosing to do really bad things.

Well, I think that what you're speaking on, too, is so, so, so not unique. I think so many people think that, like, so many men, especially in the church, men who are like, there's gotta be something wrong with me. I've tried this. I've tried reading my Bible, I've tried praying. I've tried having more sex with my wife. I. And it's not working. And so the fact that, you know, you're a testament of that truth, that it really has to be a brain change. It's not just information, it's not just scripture. It's actual intentional work on you, like, holistically, you know, understanding those triggers and those emotional stuff that's going on underneath the surface.

So, Paul, how did you find a group? Were you invited to one? Did you seek it out? Like, when you started to turn that corner to realizing, I need help and you're reaching out, what got you involved in a Seven Pillars of Freedom group?

It was actually somebody that. The church that I had been attending for years, I was actually a worship leader at that church too. So there's like a whole double life thing that was going on back then. But my story came out pretty publicly there as well. And I remember one of the ladies, she was an older gal, her name was Carol, and she said, you know, my friends or some of my family goes to Grace in Eden Prairie, where I am Now. And she said, I know they have a, some kind of a group there for guys struggling with sexual stuff and pornography. Maybe you should check it out. And I remember a couple weeks after that I went and looked at their website and found the info for it and just literally showed up one night and plugged in. So it was somebody just mentioning they had heard that there was a group somewhere. And I just went and checked it out and that's where it all started.

Yeah, well, and it's a real testimony to how God can use any one of us in someone else's journey to just be that voice that comes along and says, hey, did you know there's some options here? There's groups that meet, there's people. And that connection in your life is something we see happen a lot, that we're all, in a way, we all become ambassadors for, hey, you're not alone. And I've heard there's places that can help. And I'm glad God had put Carol in your life to be that voice, to be that person.

Yeah, I believe if I'm remembering right, it was, it was her son or son in law that was part of the group at that point was going through it and you know, thanks to him for having the guts to mention to his mom or his mother in law that he was struggling with something like that, I must say, in a group.

Yeah, that's cool.

So Paul, you talked a little bit about some of the things that you tried before that didn't work. Right. That never really helped you break free or actually find true healing. So once you kind of got into pillars and you started your heal, your healing journey, what were some strategies or some tools that you really started to create and see some long lasting sobriety start happening?

Yeah, just, first of all, just surrounding myself with the guys in my group, you know, our battle buddies is what we call them. And that was such a key thing is because I didn't have to go through it alone, which until I found that group, it had been, you know, three months or so that I was going at it alone and it was really difficult. So that was, that was the biggest thing there. But then really making my pillars group, once I was there, my top commitment in my life was, was a huge thing that I did. And you know, I started reconnecting with my kids probably about two years or so when I was still in my groups. But you know, even as much as I wanted to be with them, I didn't schedule anything with them on Thursday nights at all because that was you know, that was my group night there, and I, you know, I even turned down times to be with them on Thursdays because, you know, that was group night. So I knew that if I didn't make, you know, my healing my top priority for me, I wouldn't become the man or the dad that they needed me to be. Right. And the chance of me falling again, you know, soon or down the road at some point and, you know, possibly losing them forever was very real. So I. I gave up some time with them over a year or so to gain a lifetime with them being the. The guy God wanted me to be in their life. But then, I guess on the more practical side of things, you know, times where I was triggered, I. Because I was living alone at the time for, you know, about. Well, close to three years until my son moved in with me full time. And there's always times of. Of temptation, especially with a single guy living alone.

Absolutely.

So during those times of being triggered, I committed to physically jumping into a cold shower the second I felt triggered. And, you know, the second part of it was really key for me because if I thought about it, you know, even five seconds, I was. I was toast. So that was. That was one of the things I did. And if I wasn't home, I committed to spending some time in prayer for one of my kids as soon as I felt that temptation or that trigger come. Because it's. It's kind of difficult to think about masturbation when you're in prayer for one of your kids. So those are two practical things that I did as well.

Yeah, it is. It's cool. It's one of my favorite things about. And really, really why I feel like so many people find freedom, me included, from this stuff is it gives you handles like, it gives you stuff to actually tangibly hold onto and start putting into practice. And so it's cool, man, because what you're saying and the stuff that you're doing, like, that took. That took courage and took guts to start implementing that stuff because it's easy to just coast, you know?

Yeah. I think, you know, like understanding the guardrails and the three circles and the pillars and starting to put together a relapse prevention plan and starting to make it a tangible plan instead of just a couple things that were in my head really started to pull it together. It's how I still live today as a result of. Of the things I did in those lessons and the pillars.

That's awesome.

So, Paul, you're like, seven years into this journey now. It's become a part of your life, a part of your story. As. As you look back over those seven years and, you know, consider that people listen to this podcast at all stages of their journey. I think there are people that reach out to it when they're just coming to their breaking point, when they're coming to that realization of their need all the way to people that have been on the journey longer than you have. As you look back at your seven years, though, what would be some of the key elements that just pop out to you as what really create sexual health and freedom now that you've been walking this road for seven years?

I think the first thing would be, the thing that would have potentially kept me out of it in the first place, right, Is just renewing an intimacy with Jesus Christ and walking with him like we should be daily in his word and time in prayer and communing with him. And that's really the key. You know, the whole reason I think that I went medicating looking for something to medicate pain away, is because I didn't know him in the right way the first place. He wasn't in the right position in my life. So, um, I know I would not be where I'm at today if I had only focused on the psychological and the. And the neurological aspects of what I was going through in my addiction. But that can't be where it stops, right? I mean, we. We must. We've got to really practice the Principles of Romans 12:2. And that's, you know, renewing our mind. And I think a lot of times as believers, we get stuck in keeping that in just the spiritual realm instead of looking at ways that we need to physically work on renewing our mind too, as well. I. I feel like, you know, we really have to retrain our brain to learn to live without that one thing that. That we've been using to medicate and cope with for all those years. Because I. I knew I couldn't go back to what I've been using to feel good for a lot of time. So just being in community with other people going through the same struggle, and you can't do it alone. So incorporating these principles just doesn't work when you're by yourself. So find some battle buddies that are lifelong friends and stay in community with them even after group is done. Because I finished my initial pillars years ago and I'm still leading groups, but I still take time to be in a group by myself as well. And that's something I think I'll just Always continue to do also.

So you talked a little bit about your story and that your. It just became very, very public when the stuff was exposed, when your struggle, it became really, really public. And I think that, that in some ways is going to definitely force you and force your story to get out there. But I think when that happens, it's a normal response to want to hide and drop off the radar and avoid talking about this stuff. And so not only are you talking to us, but this has become kind of your ministry in a lot of ways where you share your story. So, man, that takes a lot of courage. So what. What enabled you to do that? What gave you the courage to step up and really just own your story and start sharing it with other people?

I think it was kind of easy at first because, you know, the media took it and ran with it, and it was. They. It wasn't the lead story of the nightly news. It was the first segment. So, you know, I found my story on websites in, like, LA and Kansas City and Seattle and all over the place. So I. I just assumed that everybody knew my story already, even though they didn't. But in my mind, that. That made it a whole lot easier to be able to share it. But that. That really helped. But from the moment I got busted, you know, God really birthed a. A desire in me to share my story with other guys just so they wouldn't end up going down the same road, that I didn't end up in the same position that I did, you know, hurting people that they really love. So I guess, yeah, I guess it was a few years into my recovery. God started really bringing guys into my life who were struggling, and I saw them just not want to share any bit of their story at all. They. They said, okay, I've got this issue. But that was where it stopped. And they. They didn't say what it was or how they were struggling or what led to that point until I shared my story, right? So I'd be sitting across from a guy booth at a coffee shop, and he would just clam up, wouldn't want to share. So I shared all the components of my story. And he would sit there and look at me and say, wow, you got me there. And then before he's really even thinking about, you know, he's sharing his own story, and it's just shared things with me that he's literally never shared with anybody in his life in the past. And that's, you know, that's a beautiful thing. And when I say that I hate the components of my story. I mean, that's really true. Those components really are. They're really awful when you think about it. But I love seeing how God is using that for his goodness, glory and how it's using. How he's using that to help other guys decide to start sharing their own journey. And I got to say, one of the things that helped me start to do that was when I was about three years into my recovery and I started really feeling the Lord leading me to helping other guys and talking about my story more. I figured I'm just going to call these Pure Desire guys out in Oregon and see if they have any suggestions for me. And I called and ended up getting a. A conference call just like this with. With Brian Roberts and Richmore. And I'm like, all right, I'm just going to throw my entire story out there and just let these guys know, and I'm sure they'll give me some advice. But then be like, oh, my gosh, keep far away from this guy. I mean, he spent time in jail. And the whole time I'm telling my story, Rich Moore is sitting there looking at Brian Roberts. I'm thinking, this guy's not paying any attention to me whatsoever. But I get done sharing my story, and Rich kind of looks at Brian and laughs a little bit, and he's like, let me tell you my story. And Rich shared his story, and our stories are almost identical in what he and I went through and experienced and things that we did. And I got done listening to that. And I remember thinking, wow, I mean, if this guy can share his story and God's used him and he's working in a ministry now, he can do the same thing for me. And that's really the point where I knew God was going to be able to use me, not in spite of my story, but because of it.

Yeah, that's huge.

So thanks, Rich. Yeah.

Yeah, thanks. We love you, Rich.

Well, I think what you said, Paul, just about your story, is so worth noting that there's parts of our story that we're certainly not proud of, that we would do anything if we could change if they weren't true. And yet we see how the truth of those dark things, the things that came out that could make. If we really dwelt on and make us feel guilty or shameful again, that those are actually the very things when we're willing to talk about them in a redemptive way. Not dismissing them, not blowing them out of proportion, doesn't mean we're focusing on them. But when we're willing to tell, just in straightforward ways, some of the reality of what happened, what we got into, the way that can unlock doors for somebody else. Because just as you shared earlier, the shame you were living with is the shame that so many men and women deal with on a daily basis because they fear if all those components of my story were found out, it would all be over for me. I think just that connection point is so worth noting. So, Paul, how would you say that your story has impacted your family? What are relationships like now with your kids and what's happened in those areas for you?

Yeah, it's interesting because it's not the happy storybook ending that you hope for and you pray for, but after about a year and a half, my wife had filed for divorce in that period of time, and we didn't communicate much at all. And she had sent me a text one day and said, well, let's get together and talk and just figure out how this is going to work. It was just about two days before the divorce was supposed to finalize, and we were sitting at a Perkins restaurant in Chaska, Minnesota, which is where the packers are from, by the way. We were sitting there, and it ended up being a quick lunch meeting we were supposed to have that we were ended up being there for about six hours. And in the course of that, hero attorney called and said I needed this sign and this sign for the court thing tomorrow. And she said, you know, I want to cancel it. I don't want to go through it. And that kind of began a process of us working through some reconciliation. But it would only last for about eight months, nine months or so. And then she would back way off. And there's things going on in her life that she was struggling through as well. And that, you know, make a long story short, that happened about five or six times where we really tried to reconcile and. And for various reasons, it didn't work. And at this period, we are just about finalized with the divorce. And it's a tough story, but it's one where both parties, the husband and the wife, need to find their own healing individually as well. And the story never. That really never happened with the both of us. So we're very amicable, we get along well and we raise our kids together. But my kids, they were very young when that happened. My son Steven was 10 and Amber was 12. And I remember the night that Melody was leaving with the kids. It was right before my story was going to hit the media that next morning. And I remember having to sit there with my son on my lap and my daughter sitting on the arm of the chair next to me and tell them everything that had happened, you know, so I had to share what had happened with my stepdaughter and you know, talking about the pornography thing because that was in the stories as well. And it was the hardest conversation I ever had to have in my life with these two little kids sitting there. And they have their dad in their life the next two and a half years because of that. And when God allowed that relate those relationships to start to reconcile again. And had just great times with my kids when they both got a little bit older, you know, to about 15ish or so each, they started really understanding what happened. So there were some tough periods in there as well. But my son lives with me full time today and my daughter and I have a great relationship. God's really done a lot of restoration there. I can't point to myself for that at all. I've seen families that have been through similar things and the family doesn't exist at all anymore. The relationships are broken. So God did amazing things there. And my stepdaughter a number of times agreed to go through counseling with me. So she and I did some pretty intensive counseling for a while. And we have a relationship today. It'll never be the same as to what it was, but there are days that she still calls me dad and there's some days she calls me Paul and I say, I don't really care. I'm just glad that she calls me something at all. I'm trusting God's still going to do a work there as well. But the fact that she's in my life at all is just a testimony to how good God is.

Yeah, I appreciate you sharing that, Paul. And just that reality of our healing doesn't necessarily guarantee the healing of people around us because everyone does have their own choices to make. And we work with a lot of people whose marriages were healed and restored and we're grateful for that. We think thank God for it. But there are many, many stories like yours where one spouse finds some incredible healing, but it doesn't change the heart or the trajectory of the other person. And so I hope for a lot of listeners out there it's an encouragement to not give up on your own healing just because your spouse may not be participating fully in it. I mean, it's great if they are, and we want to encourage that. But at the same time recognize you need to do what God's calling you to do. And God needs to work on the other person. And so to keep pursuing your freedom, your health, your growth and change. And if God brings the marriage around, we'll celebrate that together. And if God doesn't, we'll trust that he's still going to use your story for good. And I just really appreciate the way, Paul, you're open to that and just being honest about, hey, I've tried a lot of things and it hasn't necessarily worked. And that doesn't diminish what God's doing in your life.

Yeah, right. And sin has consequences. You know, I came to learn that we can't fix anybody else. That's. That's completely God's job. Because there was a time where I was trying to do everything I could to fix the relationship and fix her, and I can't do that. That's completely up to God. Yeah.

Well, Paul, this has been awesome. We're just so appreciative of you, really, just being willing to share all this stuff. I mean, you're sharing a lot. You've gone through quite a story and you're definitely on the other end. Right. You're experiencing freedom. And that's, that's an awesome thing to. And so we just want to give you an opportunity to really, anybody who's listening, what encouragements would you give them? Maybe they're at the beginning of figuring out this is an issue. Maybe they're right in the middle of crisis, or maybe they're really starting to gain some traction and sobriety. What kind of encouragement would you give to our listeners?

Yeah, I would say just don't do it alone. First and foremost, you can't do it by yourself. Find, find, you know, find the junk that's in your life. Bring it into the light. And that's something I didn't do for a long time. And it took me going down a really dark path and God dropping a really large hammer to bring it into the light. Because there's many times he gave me the opportunity to stop and I didn't. So bring it into the light. You know, sin thrives in the darkness where it's hidden. So bring it out and bring it to the light. But that's easy to say. That's one of the hardest things to do, is make that confession. But it's got to be the first step in finding freedom and healing. So then at that point, just find some brothers to walk along with you. Plug into a group. You know, that's a great place to find people to do it. Plug into a seven Pillars group, find a Conquer series, plug into it, and then don't give up. We see. You know, in my own story, I was, you know, the trauma of everything that came out for me really blew my mind for a long time. So the thought of pornography for probably about two years was just almost revolting for me. I think that was a gift that God gave me because I didn't struggle with wanting to relapse during the Pillars. But that's not, you know, a typical thing for a lot of guys. But if you find some freedom, you know, for six months, seven months, don't give up at that point. It's just such a sad thing. I see guys unplug and think they're doing really good. But the enemy will come at you hard when you're trying to break free from those chains that he's been trying to hold you down with for a lot of years. So even on those hardest days or even on the easiest days, you know, don't give up. Embrace what God's trying to, to teach you and show you through those days. And don't give the enemy a foothold by focusing on shame and guilt, because that's what almost killed me. And then I guess finally for me, it was pages, was it 154 and 155 in the workbook where it's the who I am in Christ pages. That's even today. That's such a huge thing for me. So dive into all those scriptures that are there and just discover who God says you really are, and that'll directly combat those lies the enemy's throwing at you. And that was. That was a huge encouragement to me than still is today.

Well, to anyone out there who's in the midst of recovery from the effects of sexual addiction, there's hope. Healing's possible. And as you've heard really in Paul's story, it's not going to be easy or fun, and it's definitely not always going to be wrapped tightly into a bow at the end. But you will never regret your efforts to find healing and freedom from sexual addiction. If you really do want to begin this healing journey, you can Visit our website, PureDesire.org and reach out to, you know, as Paul has mentioned a couple times, joining a group, being around other people who are also committed to finding healing and really getting free from this is such a powerful thing. And also we have counseling available, we have resources available. And so the reality is of all of this is the longer you wait, the worse it's going to get. So don't wait any longer to find it. It is possible to get healing and it's possible to get freedom. Paul, I am just, I'm encouraged, man. I'm encouraged by your story. I think one of the things that so many people can do is start to minimize parts of their story just to make it sound like, you know, everything does get wrapped up into a bow and so you being willing to share and really just lead the way in this is just awesome, man. Thanks so much for your time today. We appreciate it.

Thanks for having me on. I mean, the simple fact that I'm able to be on this podcast with you guys today, you know, it's Pure Desire. The seven pillars is where I found my freedom. It's awesome to be be sitting here with you guys. So thanks so much for thinking about having me on.

Yeah, thanks, Paul. Appreciate it. And thank you for listening to the Pure Desire Podcast. If you like what you're hearing and want to keep up with the podcast, please subscribe. You can also rate and review our podcast and let us know how we're doing. For more information, check out our website, PureDesire.org and you can follow us on social media. Your DesirePDMI. Once again, that's earedesirepdmi. We'll see you next time. Thanks for listening to the Pure Desire Podcast. For more information, check out our website, www.puredesire.org. check in each week for new content on the podcast and we pray that it will help you find hope and freedom on your journey.

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