057 – Sex During Recovery

Welcome to the Pure Desire podcast, where we partner with you to bring hope and freedom on your journey to purity.

Hey, guys, this is Dr. Ted Roberts. I hope you'll join me on September 15th at Good Shepherd Community Church for a Pure Desire men's conference, a time where you can pursue a life of integrity, strength, and leave a legacy of real significance. Learn to really kick the enemy's tail to register to go to PureDesire.org events. Enjoy the podcast.

Hey there. I'm your host, Trevor Windsor, and we're so thankful you're taking time out of your day to hang out with us. I'm here, as always with my co host, Nick Stumbo.

Dobrodoshli.

You've done that one before.

Have I?

Yep.

You know, I thought maybe I had, like, episode four or five, but if others remember, kudos to them. But you, you know, Bosnian is closely related to Croatian, and Croatia was recently in the World cup final, the second smallest country ever to reach it. So I had to bring it back as a nod to Croatia. So there you go.

People may hate me for this, but I really don't care about anything that you just said. So we're gonna move on.

Alienate all the soccer fans.

That's fine. It's called football in some countries. So, anyways, joining us today are two of our clinicians, Bob and Rebecca Vandermeer. They're some of our favorite people. We love them and we're blessed to have them with us today. Thanks for being here, guys.

Jeez.

Thank you for having us back.

Any Croatian? Do you guys speak Croatian? You guys could throw it in there if you want.

Sorry.

Okay, well, anyways, today we're gonna be talking about sex during recovery. So the recovery process from sexual addiction, we know, is one of the most difficult things a couple can go through. And the thought of having sex at all during that process can be a point of tension in a marriage. So Bob and Rebecca have been through the recovery process and can speak really from their own experience. And then also, we're looking forward to hearing from your expertise as Pure Desire clinicians. So with that, guys, let's just jump in with this first question. And why is it. Why is it that sex is such a difficult topic during the recovery process?

Yeah, I mean, obviously this question is pointed towards the recovery process with sexual addiction. So if anybody comes to Pure Desire into the office joins the seven Pillars group, a betrayal and beyond group, it's because there was something that happened sexually along the way that created some problems. So, I mean, right off the bat, like, this is already a sensitive issue. There's a lot of people, a lot of couples that, you know, they can't even bring up the topic of sex because it has been so charged with trauma and pain from past in the relationship. So I think just starting with that, I mean, that's. That's the reason they're having a conversation is because there was something bad or broken or painful that happened along the way.

Yeah, yeah. It feels like, like sex is the problem. Right? That's like. That's what we come to is it's like, it must not be an addiction our brain naturally goes to. It's about sex. That's what it's about. And so we need to, like, figure this out before that's even addressed anymore, right?

Yeah, yeah. And even with. With single, you know, people that are sitting in group that want to be able to work towards healthy sexuality, I mean, there's questions in. In the weekly check in that ask about, like, what have you done to work. To work towards sexual health? You know, for them, they think, man, well, what. I don't know. What did I. Did I do anything this week to work towards sexual health? So, I mean, even if it doesn't matter if you're married or if you're single in this process, like, sex is on your mind. And it is, you know, kind of a difficult issue to talk about and work around.

I know for us in our experience walking through the healing journey, it was really a challenge to approach the topic of sex during recovery because my addiction had been so image driven and images, you know, can sit in the mind and we can have them there for many, many years or decades. And so even though we were developing some healthy practices and my wife was engaged in the process, there's still that element of, I don't know what's on your mind, I don't know what you're thinking. I can't see. And so that bring that factor into our sex life. And it's like, well, I don't know what you're thinking about when we're together. I mean, you can tell me your mind's just on me, but how do I know? And so just that trust factor being so broken was really a big deal for us. And it was something we had to talk through quite a bit.

Right. And you know, like, for. For me personally, even thinking as you guys are, sharing and thinking about everybody that's involved in this whole process, for me personally, coming into the recovery process as a spouse of a sex addict and in the process realizing That I had an addiction myself. And being a love addict, being able to even just address sex and be confronted with. What does that even look like for me as a female with a law of addiction? And so just for a lot of spouses that come into the counseling program or groups, a lot of them don't know that they have. That they may have an addiction, that they may have some interrupted or disturbed images or concepts about sex. Because so much is to blame on what's more outwardly, externally obvious, on the spouse pointing at my husband as if everybody could see me. But anyway. But yeah. So for a lot of us women, even to. Just as it's. It's a difficult topic, even in terms of what you. What you each bring, you know, what the recovering sex side it brings, but then also what may come up for you as a woman in this process and what you bring in the concepts and the ideas that you have about sex. Yeah.

Well, you guys, I'm really excited about this episode because I think there's probably a lot of people that are going to tune in and listen, and this is a real area of question and of unknowns, and there's maybe not a lot of paradigms out there of what this looks like. So could you guys kind of give us a general overview of what. What role does sex or what role should sex have during the recovery process? Could you kind of just walk through what it. What role it should have?

So the role that sex should have in the recovery process should be a. What it should not be. Let me just say it this way. What it should not be is the measure of intimacy for a couple. The role that it should play is the extension of an emotional intimacy that is developed between the couple, which takes time. And a lot of the times, you know, with our clients and people that we talk to, just in general, they address the word intimacy. And it's always kind of understood that they're talking about sex. But at the end of the day, when we look at the bottom line of things, intimacy really is about emotional intimacy. And so then the role that sex should play in the recovery system for couples should be that extension, that added part of the emotional intimacy that has been built.

Yeah, we have like this. There's always this. This change or relearning of vocabulary for, I think everybody that enters into recovery, whether it's the addict or spouse or a single person. But. And maybe it's more in the church, I don't know. But this idea that intimacy, like we use the word intimate intimacy interchangeably with Sex. And so they'll say, yeah, you know, we were intimate last week. I was like. And so I was asked. Well, I'm so. Do you mean you had sex? Yeah, yeah, yes, we had sex. Okay.

Yes, Bob, that's what I'm talking about.

Yes.

So. So we. We try and. And even kind of retrain to use that word differently because really what we're working on is the development of emotional intimacy. And the role that sex should play is as something that's built on top of that. Yeah. As opposed to separate from it.

So what I hear you guys saying, if I could summarize, is that rather than sex being the focus of recovery or the measuring stick, sex becomes the outcome of good work that's happening. Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah. You should have just said that, Nick.

Well, you did. I'm just summarizing what you guys said. That's the way to go.

That's right. So we get this question a lot. A lot. You know, from. Specifically from spouses, betrayed spouses. But the idea of withholding sex, and you've got the passage that talks about that in scripture, that is easily used. And so I just wanted to ask you guys, is it okay during the recovery process to withhold sex?

Woo.

That's a. That's a doozy.

You're welcome.

Yeah, no, I mean that. The question. Withhold, obviously, that's. I mean, that's a very charged word. And this does come up a lot with. With people that are in recovery to say one, as a spouse, should I be withholding this from them? Or oftentimes for spouses being afraid to withhold, because then they're going to go act out someplace else, and I would rather they just have sex with me. And so it becomes a very challenging idea. But really, I guess what this question presupposes is that sex has not up until that point been healthy in their relationship.

That's right.

And they may say, well, no, I mean, our sex life has been really healthy. Well, what does that mean? Well, yeah, we were having sex a lot. Okay. So again, now we have these. This other concept of that frequency equals health. And that's not the case. We'll get to that later. But so the question of, is it okay to withhold sex during the recovery process? Not if it's punitive.

Right.

And so for a lot of people, it becomes like, okay, this is a way for me to punish you for what you've done by withholding it. But then also, not if it's. Not if sex is done out of obligation, because that's what they deserve. I mean, there's just. There's a whole reset that has to happen with sex. And so to summarize, the idea, I think is. It's not even. It's a false question because. Because withholding sex would imply that you deserve it.

Right.

And it would. It would imply that. That this is something that is required in marriage.

Right.

As opposed to what we just said on the other question or what Nick said so eloquently that sex becomes the byproduct of a healthy relationship, which then.

In, you know, in your process as a couple, oftentimes, or pretty much with all of our clients, we do recommend a period of abstinence, which then plays a whole different role. And we'll talk about this later on today, but just, you know that the two ideas are very different. And yet the abstinence period could play and does play a huge role in the healing and recovery process of sex addiction.

So to follow up on something you just said, Bob, because I think it's a really important topic for a lot of couples that saying sex shouldn't be out of obligation. And there may be some spouses listening who would say, you know, I right now, because of what's gone on or the wounding, I never feel like having sex. And I only give it because I feel obligated to. To help them stay on track. What kind of advice or encouragement could you give to someone that maybe just. That's their emotional reality right now? I don't want sex, but I give it because I feel obligated. What should they do? What could they do?

Yeah.

Call the Pure Desire office, Ask for Nick Stumbo.

Whoa. No. Bob and Rebecca.

Oh, got it. Got it. Right.

Yeah. And talk about some counseling. No. So there's a pendulum that swings either from what would be kind of like hypersexual to sexually anorexic. And we see this with a lot of people. And so what we see is that both, you know, both swings of that pendulum end up being the byproduct of some brokenness. And so as we see people come to some health and healing and some recovery and some restoration, then they begin to feel safer. So maybe they, you know, they don't want to have sex, but they do it out of obligation. A lot of times that's because they don't feel safe in the relationship or because they don't feel safe sexually. And so the work that they're doing on their own, personal health, they usually end up finding some more balance in that. But again, and I Think we'll get to this on another question. Frequency does not equal health.

Yeah, that's good. Well, I like the point you're making. That really the focus being put on helping both spouses feel safe, to feel safe and secure about entering in to that sexual relationship and that union. And, and so people bring to a marriage, and especially when there's been addiction and these issues have come to the surface, they then have a lot of fears, a lot of past wounding. So what are some thoughts along those lines? How can a couple address fears they have or past wounding or that lack of trust when it comes to re establishing their sexual connection?

Yeah, great question. A lot of people become so focused on sexual that they fail to see or are not able to see whatever brokenness or trauma or pain is getting in the way of their sex. And so I think probably a good way to do that is to not focus on sex, but instead to enter into the recovery process to look at, you know, what are some of the lies that you believed about yourself or about, you know, the opposite sex. What have you learned that about, you know, trust and being able to trust not just your spouse, but the people around you. So to really enter into the recovery process to just work on yourself because sex, sex isn't the issue that, you know, as far as sex addiction goes, like, it has more to do with what, pain and fear and trauma than it has to do with sex. So equally with this, if there's some, some issues within your sex life as a. As a couple, that has more to do with the same thing with the pain, with pain and fear and trauma in your past, then it actually usually has to do with sex. So, you know, if there's some fear there, some pain, then to address that. But don't make sex the issue.

Well, and I feel like so often this has just been my experience, you know, going from a single guy who was struggling with it, going into marriage and addressing it. Early on in my addiction, early on in my marriage, there wasn't a lot of communication about sex. Like there's this kind of, this cloud of shame that kind of covers it. Even in the church, even in Christian couples, that we can't really talk about it, we can't communicate it. And it's just something that's so interesting to me. And I think that it's something that goes overlooked, that if you begin to communicate about sex and communicate about those fears and about those wounds and about really the lack of trust or how you're feeling in those moments, that can really help that emotional intimacy that you guys are talking about, that I actually know how my spouse feels. I actually know what fears that they have. And there feels like there's a closeness and an understanding that happens, but that can't happen without communication.

Right. And being able to have the same language, in a sense, to speak the same language as a couple, you know, so that's why this whole process is important for the couple to go through together, so that as they work through their own individual self, they can speak the same language as they try to communicate or learn how to communicate about sex. Because then there's. There's room for empathy, there's room for grace, because they're both being able to understand what each other is going through and learning and, you know, and discovering about themselves. And so it goes a long way to be able to address this together as opposed to each getting help individually.

Yeah. And the single people listening might not like what I. What. What I'm about to say, but I think your ears. But I think in a sense, that if you're single and you're. And you're wanting to develop healthy sexuality for yourself, that. That you actually kind of have a, in a sense, a better. You're at a better spot to develop this for future relationships. Because for you, like, not having sex is part of your recovery. So you're. So you're working towards not having sex. But then that leaves the only thing really for you to work on is past wounding, lack of trust, you know, trauma from the past. So, you know, when you sit down in your seven Pillars group, or your betrayal and beyond group, or your eight pillars group, or, you know, behind the mask or whatever, when you're sitting down in that group and you're working on past trauma, you're actually working on being sexually healthy. Even though they might thematically seem like two totally separate things.

Yeah, they're not.

Yeah. And so again, for a lot of. A lot of married people, as they're sitting in their recovery group, it's like my trauma and stuff, and my recovery work is here, but then healthy sexuality is over here with my wife. And it's a different. Or my, you know, my spouse. And it's a totally different thing. But being in recovery and working on this stuff is working towards sexual health.

You know, as you guys were sharing, Bob, it occurs to me there's some parallels here between working on sleeping better, that if I go and try to work really hard on sleeping and get really focused on it, I'm actually distorting it. And it's Going to actually be harder to sleep versus if I put my focus on other things like calming myself down, not using devices late at night, creating a peaceful environment, then sleep is something that comes as a byproduct of that. And what you guys were saying about don't make sex the focus that the more we like, try to force it and make it happen and create that connection, it's like it'll twist the relationship and it won't work. Whereas if we focus on the emotional connection and learning to serve one another in love and being aware of each other's needs, then sex becomes the byproduct of that and it can happen out of the relationship we're building.

Yeah.

So obviously sex during the recovery process doesn't usually end up on the top of the priority list, especially for the betrayed spouse. And sometimes, you know, I could see how some addicted spouses as well be like, I need to just avoid it right now, because that maybe is just making it worse. So practically speaking, when a couple understands that, you know, they need to become more emotionally intimate and close and that sex needs to be a part of that recovery process, what are some, some things that couples can do practically to make sex a priority?

Yeah, you know, this is exactly where we'll expand a little bit on what I mentioned a few minutes ago. In terms of the abstinence period. This is where those two sex and emotional intimacy are one. Right. Or should be one. That should be the role. And so to be able to build that, that emotional intimacy so that then sex can follow up or be as a result of that emotional intimacy, then this is when we recommend an abstinence period for the couple. So that it's very specific, the timeframe is very specific. Whether it's, you know, the couple will agree to that, whether it's a month, three months, six months, whatever the couple wants and feels comfortable with. With the purpose of then focusing on the emotional intimacy, with the purpose of then resetting the button of their sex life, in a sense. And so that would be one of the main ways that a couple can make it a priority. And it's coming to the agreement of, okay, let's reset the button, let's have a period of abstinence with the purpose of connecting emotionally, of learning how to do that. And so ways that you could do that, clearly just having more dates where there's no more physical connection in a sense of the sex. However, we do encourage a lot of the physical touch, non sexual embraces. I remember when Robert and I were getting counseling from Ted, he would, he told us to, he actually assigned us to give each other hugs. One minute long hugs, non sexual hugs, actually embraces. And so that was, it seemed like, oh, sure, we'll take it, we'll do it. But it was really awkward. And so to be able to.

It's so awkward to hug my spouse for a minute. That's so weird.

No grabbing, no nothing.

You know, like, it's like, it's like high school prom when, you know, the dad is the chauffeur. It's like, you know, hands above the waist. Yeah.

Got goes a long way. So. So it just. There's a list of things that you can, you know, come up with as a couple or with your counselor to say, okay, these are some practical things that we can do and focus on holding hands. You know, so many things that you could do that will help towards building that emotional intimacy.

Yeah. Usually when we bring up, when we use the word abstinence, whoever the at whichever the addict is, the look on their face is like, what? And it's almost like this response of like, no, I'll die. And I think, you know, quite literally for most addicts, the belief is that without whatever it is, heroin, cocaine, alcohol, sex, I'm going to die. I can't survive without this. Right. And so it's interesting though is that they've been able to identify that in all these other areas of recovery and sexuality, like, okay, I shouldn't look at porn and masturbate, I shouldn't go to the adult bookstore, I shouldn't, you know, pay for sex. But then when you say, yeah, you should have an absence period of sex with your spouse, they look like, like what? No, no. But the reality is, is that if they've been engaged in their sexual addictive behavior for 20 years, let's just say, and they've been married for 10, and they've still been a sex addict for those 10. That means that like the only thing that's been consistent has been their sex addiction. Yeah. And the reality is that their spouse has just been added into whatever cycle of behaviors they have. And, and as horrible as that sounds for most people, that's the reality that in some way that their spouse becomes a stand in for whatever their behavior has been. Yeah. And so, so really sex in the relationship has always been out of place. Like it's, it's never been able to be about the two of them connecting. There's always been some connection with that also with the addictive behavior. And so abstinence, being able to Say, let's just stop. Let's just pause and be able to. To re. Examine this and to. And to, you know, have this. Have a new role and a healthy place in our relationship is really monumental.

Yeah, absolutely.

You know, something that I heard Dr. Ted say once that I'll never forget, and I think it was during a PDU PD University event. He talked about the idea that some addicts use their spouse as a masturbation machine. And I just remember how vivid and how uncomfortable that imagery made me feel. But that's what you're talking about. You're just using that person as. You're just using them as a tool in your addiction.

Yeah, usually that's the phrase that I use, but I left it out. But yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean. Yeah. And whatever they're acting out is their spouse just becomes a replacement for that.

Yeah.

Well, it's such powerful advice because when we're stuck in an addiction, we can get to a place where every touch, we start to think, oh, is that going to lead to sex? Or every compliment from our spouse, like, ooh, they're in the mood for sex. Every date is supposed to lead to sex. Every. It's just such a connection that in a marriage, we can't enjoy those little things for what they are. Like, a compliment can just be a compliment. And to enjoy it, like, man, that's really awesome that my wife complimented my good looks today without thinking, oh, maybe we're gonna have sex later. And then if we don't, feeling let down it. It just becomes so wrapped up in our thinking that to disengage and get to a healthy place of, I'm able to offer physical touch and compliments and quality time and date nights that don't have to lead to sex builds that foundation of marriage that then on the occasions it does, we appreciate it for what it is as opposed to always being the goal. So, yeah, that's a huge one for couples to realize and to work through.

Yeah. And that's, as a woman, too, exactly what you're saying, Nick. It's exactly the same for. For us women. I can relate to that as well. You know, for any touch, any show of appreciation, any, you know, any physical touch or show of. Of love, to be able to get to the point of knowing that, well, my husband loves me for who I am and not. He's not seeking, he's not wanting anything from me. And then. Which if that wasn't the case, it would potentially put me on a defense mode to reject and, you know, be on the defense. And so just be able to get to that point of he's just holding my hand. He. You know, he said whatever he said or. And still be able to just feel loved. And even for a lot of us to be able to get to the point of wanting to initiate something more than that and not be the ones that are getting, you know, scared or afraid of that coming from our husband, it goes a long way, for sure.

Yeah. And I think it's important also for the addict during that time to realize or to notice how much of their behavior is sexually driven, you know, that. That their. That their hugs are sexually motivated, that their. That their looks are. That, you know, whatever is. And we. You know, there's nobody. That. There's nobody that I know of that has participated in an abstinence period and. And has pursued emotional intimacy during that time, where at the end of it, they say, man, that was a waste of time.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Every single person that. That we know that has. That has participated. That. Has pursued emotional intimacy, at the end of it, they said, that was amazing.

And that was done.

That was. Yeah, that was really important, and I'm so glad we did that. And none of them died.

Good.

Glad you kept that.

Statistics are 100% of survival. Beard is our counseling.

You know. Sorry, can we add one more thing onto that?

Of course.

Sure.

And it's. It's the end. This is probably what will. I'm sure a lot of addicts will bring this up is the idea of blue balls. This is something that male addicts bring up. But what about this? This is a real thing. So I had a conversation with my urologist when I went in for a vasectomy about this topic, because I thought, I'm never going to sit with a urologist again and have the opportunity to do this. And what his response was was that that is a. That physiologically, that is a response to the frequency of use. In other words, like, if you are using it a lot, then. Then your body is preparing a lot, and the less you use, the less preparation. And so for any. Even for any guys that may have a fear of, like, well, what if this happens? Well, that's only happening because of the frequency in which you've been using it.

Yeah.

So the abstinence will actually have an effect on that, and that won't be an issue.

Well, I'm glad you included that, Bob, because I do think that's a very practical thing. That can be a stumbling block. Like, I just can't go without it. But helping Someone get through that period and realize, you know, this could lead to health and you can survive it.

And you're not gonna die.

Your body's gonna learn from it. That's. That's really encouraging. So as we talk about sex during recovery, very often couples are in two different places, and it can be either spouse. One is very hesitant, one is very eager. And the conversation can always be very difficult to have, because if the one who's eager brings it up, the other feels guilted or like, you're pressuring me, and then they don't even know how to talk about it, it leads to fights. So what kind of encouragement would you give to couples about what's the best way to communicate this? Where one is wishing there was more sex and wanting to ask for it, but not knowing how to do it without guilting or pressuring the other one who's being more hesitant?

Yeah, I think one of the things is that if they haven't thought about an abstinence period, to do that, because that is going to be a reset for both of them. If one person is pushing a lot and the other person is withdrawing a lot, it may be because that's been the dynamic during their relationship. And if that dynamic continues, then one person's going to feel like, well, I need to bring it up, and the other person's going to be kind of on the retreat always. And so that, you know, being able to take a reset period is really. Is really helpful. The other thing is just, I think being able to talk about it. And Rebecca mentioned this earlier about kind of using the same language. I know when we first got married, she asked me how often, like, would it be ideal to have sex? And. And I think at that time, I said something like. Like four times a week. Something like that.

Yeah, every other day.

Yeah, something like every other day. Yeah. And. And so what I meant was that I thought that it would be good if I wanted sex every other day, and that that was something that, you know, worked for us. But how she understood that was, or how I miscommunicated is that I wanted it every other day. So for the first several years of our marriage, you know, she was. She was believing that I wanted it every other day. And if that wasn't happening, then somehow she was failing. And that, like, our sex life wasn't. Wasn't what I wanted it to be until, you know, several years into our marriage, we talked about it again, and she brought that up. That's like, well, you want it every other day? And I was Like I don't want it every other day. Like I can't. That's too much for me. And, and so, so all we did is just that just precipitated like a further conversation for us to say, well, like what do you want? Like what is expected? You know, what do you want? What do I want? And how do those things work? And it may be that this couple just, they've never really talked about that in that open dialogue because they haven't felt safe to. And beginning the process of recovery, you know, as we get healthier as individuals, we actually become safer people for those around us. So, you know, husband and wife like entering into their own recovery and health, they become safer. And these conversations, though they may not be easy, they're at least you know, feel safer to have and they're more likely to have them. And so just, you know, to talk about it. What is it, what is it that you actually expect or want or you know, what is, what is your expectation and make sure that you, that you guys are speaking the same language?

Yeah, yeah, it's huge. Well, you guys have talked about really the idea of emotional intimacy being what's most important. So it's not that sex is the priority, it's that getting close emotionally, being intimate together in that way is a priority. So if sex isn't that priority and emotional intimacy, emotional closeness is, what are some practical ways? You guys have kind of touched on a couple already. But what are some more practical ways that couples can do that and increase that emotional intimacy?

Yeah, one of the things that I can think of that we, that we have used and that we actually currently use and recommend to our clients is the Gottman Cards. So the Gottman Institute, they have come up with a set of questions. Question.

Yeah, called Love Maps.

Called Love Maps. And so this comes in an app, it comes in a physical set of cards where basically it's just open ended questions that as you read out, you respond to them as if it was your spouse. So it gives you an opportunity to kind of explore how much do you know your spouse? And if for whatever reason you don't know the answer to that specific question, then great. There's another opportunity then for your spouse to be able to speak and make, make himself or herself known to you.

Yeah.

And oftentimes we've started doing those questions and in half hour later we're talking about 20 different, different other things. But that what that did was it opened up, you know, an opportunity for us to just connect and have this long conversation that we would have otherwise had a hard time just getting to, just trying to figure out what to talk about and what do. To sitting on the couch.

Yeah, because I think a lot of, a lot of people like the idea of let's just sit down and talk. Like, no.

How was your day? Fine. How was yours? Good.

Okay, let's watch Netflix now. What? Yeah.

That sounds so intimidating to me. That sounds so intimidating. Like, let's just sit on the couch and talk and like, I picture us like, drinking tea.

There's anything wrong with that?

Not. There's anything wrong with.

Sure. T is great for all of our.

Listeners from across the pond. Yeah, but, but like, these, these cards, they're. They're not. So they're not sexual questions.

Right?

They're, they seem like relatively innocuous questions, like describe your, you know, your partner's, your spouse's favorite meal. Okay. How does that improve emotional intimacy? Well, if I'm able to describe what her favorite meal was, then at the end of it, she feels like, oh, man, he knows me. If I sit there, I think, man, I don't know what it is. Is it this or this or this? What is it? Then she's able to answer it. And again, at the end of it, like Rebecca said, oh, he knows me, you know, and vice versa. So, so they're, they're really just like, questions. There's another, another set of cards that we use called Table Topics. And again, like, totally, totally innocuous. Like non, non, sexual. Like, they're not deep questions.

Not recovery based.

No. Like, like what would you rather have for your back porch, mountain view or an ocean view?

Yeah.

And. But all of a sudden, like, we're talking 15 minutes about this and what we love. And oh, man, remember that one time we went to the mountains and how great that was? And so things like that that really just help to create conversation and knowing each other and without having the pressure of whatever. So. Yeah, go ahead.

Well, it's funny because, you know, me and my wife, we just had our first kid a year and a half ago, and it's easy to feel like we've spent quality time together if we' sitting in bed, watching TV or both on our phones or whatever. Like, it just, it feels like in some ways or it looks like we're spending time together, but in a lot of times we're not. Like, we're not connecting emotionally. And so it's just funny because I think so many married couples get to this point where they realize, oh, I have to be intentional about spending Time with my spouse. I see them every day. I come home to them, I share the same bed with them, I eat meals with them. But that doesn't mean that you're connecting. That doesn't mean you're. You're actually doing relationship together.

Yeah.

Yeah. And that's exactly what I would say. Being intentional. Being intentional about what you do with your time together, whether you have kids or not. Obviously if you have kids, you have to be even more intentional because your time is a little bit less or limited, but just being able to be intentional. Okay, we're going on dates. How often are we going to go on dates? What are we going to do on that date? Who is going to plan that date? Even that. Just those things and just being able to be intentional about that goes a long way in terms of your, you know, you feeling connected and being able to communicate and feeling intimate.

Yeah. One of the other things I think we recommend, and it's something that we started doing that has worked out really well for us, is every Sunday night we sit down and we go over our schedule, our calendar for the week ahead. And again, that sounds so unromantic, but in that conversation, we're talking about what is going on in each other's lives. We're talking about the things that we would like to do. And then in that time too, we plan out personal time for each other that, you know, Rebecca gets some alone time, I get some alone time. She. We plan out time for her to spend time with friends and vice versa. And so just in sitting down and having that conversation, again, we're engaging with each other. And it's something that we've actually that we just do weekly.

And it feels like we're working together as a team.

So important.

Yeah, it's cool.

I know in our recovery, a couple of things we did that created emotional intimacy. We had a weekly check in night where I would share my faster scale. And that was really teaching me to speak the language of emotions. Because on each category of the faster scale, it's how does this make you feel? And how does the important people in your life feel? And my wife would talk about how my procrastination or my getting overly busy with work, how that was making her feel. And it just kind of became the systematic way that we were sharing on an emotional level. Because, I mean, I feel like I'm a fairly sensitive guy, but I just realized I didn't know how to share what I was feeling with my wife. I would just be like, well, I'm frustrated. And I didn't ever know why, but as we started going through that, I could understand what I was feeling and have a way to share it with her. And another thing we found incredibly helpful and a lot of this honestly happened because we had to drive half an hour to and from our group was just taking time every week to share what I was learning personally about myself in the group. That didn't mean I always shared some nitty gritty details because in your group work you might get down to some pretty in depth levels that wouldn't necessarily be helpful or appropriate to share with a spouse. But so many of the questions are about like your past, your history, how did your family of origin make you feel? And to start to open up about those things with one another created the conversations, honestly we had never had before. I mean, it was like, how have we been married 10 years and not talked about my relationship with my dad in this way or your relationship with your mom? It just took us to a new level. And so if you and your spouse are both in a group, that's one way. Don't read each other's homework because you don't want to get to where you're filtering your answers because oh, my spouse is going to read this. But voluntarily sharing things you're learning about yourself can really help them, A, not only connect with you, but B, they realize, wow, this group, they're really engaging and they'll be much more supportive of your group experience.

Yeah, absolutely.

Well guys, let's think about someone maybe listening who's been pretty skeptical still. And they're like, I've been hurt by them. I don't want to talk about sex. It's off the table until they've been healthy or they just think this is a non issue, they don't want to deal with it. Maybe give that person a couple of tips on why is sex during recovery so helpful. How can it really be an advantage or a benefit to a couple working through this process?

Yeah, I think it kind of goes back to one of the main ideas that we use in recovery at pure desire and that's that you've been wounded in a relationship, you need to be healed in relationship. And if sex again for any of the parties involved has been something where brokenness and pain and trauma have become mixed with that as a behavior, as an activity, as a part of relationship, then them being able to have sex now in a relationship where there is safety, where there is respect, where there is communication, that just taking the risk of making yourself vulnerable because I Mean, obviously, being naked with another person, that's vulnerable. So, you know, making yourself vulnerable, taking that risk and doing it in a way where people do feel safe and respected. Now all of a sudden this becomes a healing experience as opposed to one that is just re traumatizing or perpetuating any of the beliefs or experiences that.

We have, which is then, you know, the practical way of reprogramming your brain and, you know, your limbic lies and limbic system that's built within us as it's experiential to replace those old lies and patterns and fears. We have to replace those with positive new experiences. And so this becomes part of that practical way of doing that within your marriage, within your. Within your spouse in recovery to be able to experience sexual intimacy in a very positive and healing way.

Yeah. And with that said, if you're in recovery but your spouse is not, and sex is not safe, then, then there's not an obligation for you to be sexual with somebody that you are not safe with. That might, again, that might upset up a lot, upset a lot of people. But the reality is, is like that is your body. And if you're in a relationship where you're being abused or you're not being cared for or it's not safe for you, then by no means are we recommending that you take a risk and put yourself in an abusive situation or in harm's way, you know, because again, this is about being healthy and, and having sex does not equal health. So what we're saying is if health is something that's able to be established and reached in a relationship, then sex is appropriate. But if your relationship isn't safe, if there's not emotional connection, if addiction has been the main role or sex has been mainly a part of addiction, then sex is really out of place in your relationship. And that's why all this recovery stuff is so important. Because if people aren't. If you as a couple, if you as an individual are not healthy, then sex will just continue to be out of place because it's being misused.

Well, and that can be a really powerful and appropriate way for one spouse to communicate to the other why they're not willing to have sex. They may go to them and say, you are routinely looking at pornography. I've told you how that makes me feel. And when we have sex, I don't feel safe, I don't feel valued, and so I'm not going to be able to enter into that. If you're not addressing this topic, and that's not being mean spirited or as you said earlier, punitive, but sharing. Honestly, this isn't a safe experience for me and I can't willingly do something that makes me feel unsafe and violated and that in a relationship could be. We've seen guys show up in groups. It's like, well, my wife said if I don't do, you know, and they're mad and upset about it, but it's the motivation that got them going. And if they'll stick with it, we'll see a few weeks or months down the road they're getting it and there's some change happening. So that's just one way a spouse might appropriately share if you're unwilling to change. It makes me unsafe and we need to address this.

Well, and I think that one of the things that we can talk ourselves into, and Bob, you kind of, I think one of you either mentioned it earlier, the idea of, well, if I don't, if I don't give sex to my spouse, then I'm somehow pushing them further into their addiction. And the reality is, is you are not responsible for your spouse's healing. They're responsible for their healing. And so not to put that responsibility on yourself because then, you know, maybe you are putting yourself in situations you're not safe because you're afraid or fearful that this person is going to then go and act out. But ultimately we have to get to a place where that's not on me. That's not my responsibility. My responsibility is to, is to pursue my own health and to make sure that I'm safe. And so I just think that that's something we can so easily fall into. Is that feeling, that responsibility?

Yeah, yeah. I think there's also a belief that we have that particularly I think as Christians, that if you're married, then sex is appropriate. And I think what we're saying is that that is not the determining factor on whether or not sex is appropriate. Mutual respect, emotional intimacy, health, safety, that makes sex appropriate. And so there's a lot of people that will say, well, no, we're married. So, like, that's what, that's what makes this blessed. Yeah. No, I'm sorry. Like, yeah, if you, if you're using your spouse to masturbate, then no. How is that blessed? Yeah, like there's so much that, that happens on the emotional side of things that makes sex appropriate. Again, I think as, just as Christians, we sometimes miss that idea.

Yeah. So guys, we end every episode really with this, this idea of just giving final encouragement. So if we have listeners out there who are in the midst of the recovery process. Maybe they're at the front end or maybe they're, they're finishing up and starting to really experiencing some, some freedom, getting some traction when it comes to sexual intimacy and its role in recovery. What just final encouragement would you have to any of our listeners?

Yeah, the first one again is this idea that frequency does not equal health. What equals health is health. Health equals health.

Yeah, that's so good.

And you know, and so there's a lot of, there's a lot of people where it's like, well, if we're having it this often, then our sex life is healthy. And if we're only having it this often, then our sex life is not healthy. And I don't think that that's the case. For some couples, what, what they realize in their health is that, you know, maybe they have sex twice a month, and for them, that, like, that's good, they enjoy that, they feel connected, they feel intimate, they feel all those things. For some, it's more often than that. And the reality is, is that however often you're having sex now, you're not going to have that much sex probably 20 years from now. So, like, just to get used to the idea already, that frequency does not equal health.

Yeah. And to get to that point, you, you as a couple need to be very intentional about communicating, learning how to communicate, learning how to be open and honest and vulnerable with each other so that even having that conversation about frequency can be just a normal, trivial, you know, day to day conversation that you're able to have without just feeling all this turmoil about just approaching the conversation.

Yeah. And also the reminder that this isn't about sex.

Right.

This is about your own health. This is about you being who God created you to be. This is about, you know, the process of sanctification, of you learning to be who God's made you to be without being affected by all the brokenness of the past. And so better sex will be the byproduct of a healthier person. Pursue, pursue that.

Yeah.

And Trevor, I think my final encouragement today would be to be patient and to be gracious both with your spouse and with yourself if you're in recovery. This is an emotional time. It's a difficult time. There are good days, there are bad days, there's hard times, there's easy times. And so you may have an evening where you feel rejected and you can jump to these, what's wrong with her? What's wrong with me? Kind of overreacting. And there's just going to be days you don't connect and you miscommunicate and to just take a deep breath, to have grace for yourself, grace for your spouse. Be patient and trust the process of recovery and growth. I think that's really necessary. So just don't get too worked up over any one experience or one week. Just continue in that patience and grace and allow this process to create health in your lives.

Yeah. You know, you guys, both Nick and the Vandermeers, you guys have been married a lot longer than I have. But just something that I have, I've learned really to apply to my life is that to understand that we live in a culture that likes to play the comparison game. So if this is what's healthy for this couple, that must be what's healthy for me and my spouse. And every marriage, every couple, every scenario is going to be different. And so to not play that comparison game, that if a couple, like Bob, you were saying, if a couple has sex two times a month and that's great for them, that doesn't mean that I also have to try it twice a month in order to be healthy. It could be once a month or it could be 18 times a month. Like it does. You know what I mean? Like it doesn't.

That's so good.

It doesn't matter. So just focus on your relationship and being the healthiest person you can be with your spouse and don't worry about other people's marriages.

Yeah. And it's progress, not perfection.

Yeah. Gosh, such a good word.

Yeah.

So Vandermeers, you guys are awesome. You guys are super, super smart and you're pretty and we like you on the podcast. So just sharing from your experience, your vulnerability, your expertise. Expertise is really, really helpful. So for anybody, really, they're listening. In order to truly progress to freedom and recovery from sexual addiction, the Vandermeer has told us they need to have a shared healing. They need to have a shared language. They need to be both getting healthy. It can't just be one sided. So sex during the recovery process is one of the ways couples need healing. Like Rebecca said, they need this reset. So learning to not just be physically intimate, but becoming emotional intimate is such, such an important thing, not just in the sex life of a couple, but in the health of that marriage. So, Bob, Rebecca, you guys are awesome. Thanks so much for your time.

Thank you guys. You guys are awesome too.

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