061 – FAQ #5

Welcome to the Pure Desire podcast, where we partner with you to bring hope and freedom on your journey to purity.

Hey, guys, this is Dr. Ted Roberts. I hope you'll join me on September 15th at Good Shepherd Community Church for a Pure Desire men's conference, a time where you can pursue a life of integrity, strength, and leave a legacy of real significance. Learn to really kick the enemy's tail. Go to PureDesire.org events. Enjoy the podcast.

Hey there. I'm your host, Trevor Windsor, and we're so thankful you're taking time out of your day to hang out with us. I'm here, as always, with my co host, Nick Stumbo.

Wella, wella, wella. Huh? Tell me more.

And today we have Bob Vandermeer back with us. Welcome back, Bob. I know. I got. I got nothing. Hey, Bob, how's it going, man?

I'm not sure.

Oh, okay.

We'll find out.

You know, it's a good thing you're a counselor because me and Nick might need some counseling right now. Before we get too far off track, today's episode is Frequently Asked Questions or FAQ number five. We're gonna dive into all types of questions. We get a lot of different questions at a lot of our events. We have people email stuff in. We have calls that come in. We're not always able to answer them. And so these episodes are created to create that space to try to be able to address those questions. So we hope that these episodes can answer your questions. And if you have them, make sure to send them to. I will give you ways to do that at the end of this episode. So with that, gentlemen, are we ready to jump in?

Yep, let's do it.

All right, the first question comes to us again from Joseph B. We like you, Joseph B. This is the third question you've sent in. Let that be an encouragement to all the listeners who'd like to send them in. It is possible. So the first question is, are there different types of relapses such as episodic or episodic relapses? Not sure how to say that word, but are there different types of relapses?

Yeah, that's a good question. Thanks, Joseph B. I wish I knew where you're from so I could say thanks, Joseph B. From Sacramento, California, calling in from. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think the challenge with that question is the understanding and the approach to relapse. Just as an idea, in recovery, there's a lot of fear around relapse. There's a lot of shame around it. And So a lot of times we end up asking questions or creating categories or wanting to create categories for relapse so that we can do something and not have to call it relapse, so to call it a lapse or a slip or whatever. So are there different types of relapses? My quick answer would be, no, I don't think so. One of the exercises that we use Pure Desire, is a tool just uses these three concentric circles. And in the middle, or, sorry, the inner circle, you would list everything that you consider to be a behavior you want to stop doing. And so whatever behavior ends up being written down in there, like masturbation, pornography, affairs, you know, bookstores, whatever, any of those behaviors, then if you do one, one time, then we would call that a relapse. And, you know, as we get some sobriety and progress and some, you know, forward movement with, with our recovery, I think we become more and more afraid of the word relapse. And so because of that, we want to call it other things. But I, I think that there's health in being able to just call it what it is. Like, okay, did you define this as something you said you wouldn't do or wouldn't want to do? Again, is that what you defined at some point? And if you did that, then it's relapse. Now, if after you've relapsed, you realize, well, I, you know, I don't know if that should have been in there. For instance, some guys will put, like, fantasy into their inner circle, and if they fantasize, then it's a relapse. Well, so then maybe you need to reevaluate that with either a clinician or your group. But no, I, I don't think there's different types of relapse.

Well, and I think it comes down to what is the commitment we're making that we really want to change? Because our life or our relationship might depend on it. And I don't mean our life in terms of it's a life or death kind of thing, but just the future. We want to have the kind of relationship with our kids. And so someone could make a commitment like, well, I don't want to eat sugary desserts after 9pm and then one night they had a cookie. Is that a relapse? Well, that might not have been a part of the tool you created that Bob was talking about your circles. We really are talking, what are the behaviors that jeopardize your relationships, jeopardize your sense of purity and being a person of Integrity. And you have committed that. These aren't just things that I don't want to do. They're things that I've recognized are really detrimental to the kind of person I want to be, and I've attached even consequences to them. And so I just bring that up because I think, particularly if we're really striving to be a disciplined person and have integrity, I feel like I probably do things every day that I've told someone I don't want to do, whether it's sleeping in a little too long or eating something sugary. And I don't call those relapses because I haven't put them in my inner circle and connected them to my recovery from sexual addiction. But if I had a huge issue with desserts being part of that journey and I was connecting them to consequences in that pattern, then for me, that could be a relapse, whether it was one time or repeatedly. So I think it comes down to, for every person really defining, what do I need to eliminate from my life to be the person God's called me to be and have healthy relationships and being clear about that. So there isn't, as you were bringing up Bob, that wiggle room of, oh, this one doesn't count, or that was just a slip. We don't have to have consequences or a recovery plan for this. Just clearly define what that is, because that's going to become the boundary or the line, then that really makes you aware, oh, this. This matters. This is a big deal. And if. If you're the kind of person that's always fudging that line or trying to, you know, come up with excuses why that one didn't matter, didn't count, then you just need to be more specific about defining what a relapse is so that there's clarity. And like Bob said, that we don't have to be afraid of it, but then we know what to do when it happens.

Yeah, there. There's. I think the word consequences that you used to is a big part of this. Because if. Let's just say if your coping mechanism was eating cookies and you said, I'm not gonna do this anymore, and you had a cookie, then you would have relapsed. The consequences for that is you're not gonna lose your marriage, you're not gonna lose your job, you're not gonna get arrested. But for a lot of sex addicts, the consequences if they do relapse with sexual behavior is they might be sleeping on the couch, or there might be separation, or they might lose their job or they might get arrested. And, and so I think it's the fear of the consequences that then kind of creates this desire to minimize or change. But if you're an addict and you've defined what relapse is, then stick to it. You're gonna benefit in the long run from being able to say, yes, I relapsed and have to face the consequences that come with that. What we don't want to do is minimize damaging behavior, especially in relationship. Because now like you're married and you say, well, yeah, I mean, that's something I didn't want to do. But it wasn't a relapse, so there's not those consequences. Well, now you're also minimizing the effect that your spouse should be allowed to have or feel. And that doesn't create trust. So I think sticking to it. And even if you don't want to, if you, if you don't want to say I relapsed, still say it, because that's going to be a benefit to you.

Well, and there's just so much shame around it. The reality is, is that we learn by our mistakes often and so to not be afraid of relapse. By no means would we ever encourage anybody to relapse on their road to recovery. But those times, if you take advantage of those times in your planning and looking ahead, those can be very, very beneficial on your road to recovery. What was I doing? What was the situation or circumstance that it was surrounded, you know, where I was at what time of day was I alone? Were people around? Those kind of things, Being able to identify those can help you even more so down the road in recovery. So if relapse does happen, don't be ashamed of it. Try to take advantage of that time.

Yeah. And on our, on the web, on our website under resources and Tools, there's a crash site analysis. And so you probably already using that if you're in a group and you've relapsed. But if not, definitely, you know, if you've relapsed, go to the website, go to the Resources tools crash site analysis and fill that out because you're going to get a lot of useful information out of that that'll help you learn from it, but then also hopefully not go down that same road again. Sweet. So following that question, I think this one makes sense is, you know, we encourage people that are in recovery to come up with what's called a recovery plan. What are some of the types of consequences then that we would put into that recovery action plan, for instance, if there is a relapse.

Yeah, that's a great question from Jonathan W. And I think Jonathan W. Is from Florida, so thanks, Jonathan W. From Florida. Unless it's a different Jonathan W. Than I've met, which could be the case too. So if it's a different Jonathan W. In wherever we salute you, the couple of things that we look at in consequences. One would be natural consequences versus logical consequences.

And.

And natural consequences are those things that happen whether we choose them or not or whether we want them to happen or not. So for an example, a natural consequence of a sexual relapse could be feelings of guilt and shame. Natural consequences could be a feeling of isolation from other people, because now there's something I need to confess to them or that they don't know. It could also be a feeling of distance from God or a fear of God's anger at me. Even if we know biblically that his love for us is constant, we recognize when I relapse, these are things that I'm going to feel and experience. And we really encourage someone to write out the natural consequences, even if they're not, in a sense, quantifiable. But more as a way to remember, when I do these things, this is what happens whether I want it to happen or choose it to happen. I hurt other people, I damage my relationships, I feel guilt and shame, and it doesn't make the problem better. And to clearly define those. So that's in your thinking when you're being tempted to go, there are some consequences of this. No matter what I want or don't want, it's going to happen. So to clarify those, and then logical consequences is that other side of what are some things that I can choose to do so that I learn from my behavior. The part of your brain that understands punishment and rewards is not driven by morality. It's driven by what feels good and what doesn't feel good. And it gravitates towards what feels good and what doesn't feel good. And so relapse has, in too many ways, just felt good. And that part of your brain wants to keep doing it because of the rewards. So adding logical consequences is a way to help you feel that pain. So I think a good way to come up with them is just to connect the consequence to the behavior. So some of the obvious ones are if the behavior is acting out of my smartphone, a consequence of, you know, losing data on my smartphone, if it's acting out by using my television alone at night, then I Don't ever get to watch TV alone. Those sorts of things that where I don't need it for my life or for my job. I could get rid of those devices or lose them for a period of time. Other logical consequences could be if my acting out or relapse was an act of being very undisciplined, being very unstructured, then maybe a natural consequence is some discipline of having to get up every day at 6 o' clock to do chores so that I learn that discipline. Other examples could be I've wasted time in relapsing and so making a choice that I would donate time to an organization or at my church or to my family. Maybe I've wasted money and so instead I donate money to a purity ministry or to a group that's fighting sex trafficking. All of these are just ways to. And really don't do this after the relapse. These are things you need to think through ahead of time to say, what happens when I relapse? What have I done? And what could I logically connect. Connect to it that would be a consequence. And then just the final piece. The logical consequence if you're married is allowing your spouse to create some as well. Because her logical consequences are, you know, when you do this, you make me feel uncomfortable and I need space to process. So she might bring things like you'll agree to sleep on the couch for a week, or you'll give me a day away to be with some other friends where I can process and work through how I'm feeling. And these are again, are very, very important that you agree on these mutually ahead of time so that they don't feel like a punitive thing, that it's shame on you. Now you've got to do all this bad stuff. If I recognize I don't want to hurt you, I don't want to cause you to feel these things. And if I do, I'm agreeing to take these steps to help you repair and to feel safe again. And hopefully they make me feel uncomfortable enough that I don't want to do them anymore. So those are kind of the three areas. The natural consequences, writing them out, logical consequences that I choose, and then logical consequences that my spouse helps me identify to help them regain safety and trust.

Well, and don't. I think especially the addict brain wants to take it easy on ourselves. I think that we want to just be like, well, I know that this will kind of make me uncomfortable and it's not something I like to do every day. So let's make That a consequence? I think it's okay to be as severe as you need to be. I think if you know that you absolutely hate doing the dishes and it literally causes you trauma when you do it, maybe if it doesn't cause you trauma, maybe it should experience or something. Maybe, sure. But I think that you need to be. And again, going back to what you're saying, not after a relapse, not when you're in that emotional place, but when you have some clarity, you have someone there, like your spouse helping you with this to be as severe as you need to be. Because if you know that that thing's coming, if you're going to act out, you don't want to do it anymore, that's got to be a deterrent. So making sure that you're being as. As bold as you need to be in those.

Yeah. And then we don't want them to be obviously shaming. We don't want it. But I think part of that is because as addicts, for the most part, we approach consequences as if they were punishment. And so in the past, we've been living a secret life where we've had the secret behavior. And if we get caught in the past, then there's punishment attached to it. But what we're doing with this is we're saying ahead of time, say that if this happens, these would be the consequences. So, yeah, I mean, if you're married and you relapse and these consequences are put into place, then it's like, okay, it's like your spouse saying, well, no, this is what happens, Larry, when you relapse. And these are what goes into place. And so there's a nuance there. It's not punishment. You're ahead of time saying, like, these are the consequences that. That I'm agreeing to, that I will adhere to. And then actually following through is really important. It's big because there's a lot of people that do. I did some of it. Well, no, because, like, you didn't follow through on staying sober. So, like, it's really important that now you're following through on the consequences for that.

Yeah. And that's where we need groups and friends and people in our life that can help hold us to that. Because it's. It's human nature that after we relapse, we're not going to want to do the consequences. And it's human nature to feel like we're going to blame someone else or why are they making me do this? And so it's so important if we have Relapsed and are following consequences that we just remind ourselves, I chose this. I agreed to this, and I'm the one that chose to relapse and brought about these consequences so that we don't get into, why is she making me? And why did she like, no, you chose the relapse, knowing the consequences, and so owning that, and not in a guilt, shame on me way, but in a healthy, I need to take responsibility for my actions and for the pain they cause others. That's really what I think leads to healing and growth. Because for me, I just saw that the healing journey from addiction was just so much about maturing, learning to be responsible for what I'd done and for what it would take to make it right. And that maturing is so much of what freedom is all about.

It's so good.

All right, guys, well, let's jump down to question number three. Now, we have seen scientifically that we pass down generational curses or struggles or tendency to our kids. I mean, we know scripture talks about that. But now brain research and science is showing that even through our DNA, we pass on some of these traits to our children. So how do we go about breaking those curses or healing them generationally?

Yeah, I think a lot of this in the past has been kind of like a get out of jail free card, where, like, well, there's a general generational curse. It was my dad and my grandpa or my mom and my grandma or whoever it is. But even though we see the potential for this to be a brain issue and not just a spiritual thing, science has also shown us that there's this thing called neuroplasticity, where we are able to renew our minds, where we're able to do something new and different with those. And so I think part of it is, okay, yeah, let's recognize it, let's identify it. Let's look at some family patterns and some family traits and, you know, family history of how maybe it hasn't been sex addiction, but maybe there was alcoholism or work, you know, workaholic or what? I mean, just to see that there have been addictive patterns and traits in the past, that's great. Identify it. But we also know that we have the potential to stop and change that. And, I mean, that's basically what pure desire is all about, is being able to break the denial and say, I've got a problem, and then to be able to address it. So the question of how do we go about breaking those things and healing them? Really identify it, get into a group where you're going to be able to talk about it, you're going to have the vocabulary to address it, you're going to have the support in dealing with it. But in the behavior itself, I mean, we see vulnerabilities that are also passed down. And so, yeah, maybe there's alcoholism, but maybe there's also this deep feeling of just worthlessness or being a failure. And to identify one without identifying the vulnerability behind it, we end up missing the driving force. And the driving force of that shame, of that brokenness, is where there's really the potential for healing. And so whether it's in a clinical setting with a. With a counselor, or whether it's in a group, a recovery group, being able to actually identify those things and basically give God access to it and talk about it and talk about what are the roots of it. I mean, you're able to process through things, whereas if you're just saying, oh, that's just the way our family is, well, good luck with that.

Well, and you need to make sure that you understand that your own health is the biggest tool that you can use to help other people. I'm just thinking about my kid right now who's a year and a half, just thinking about if I'm working on my stuff now. When he's able to get to a point in his life where he has some similar struggles or similar situations, not only will my health help model what it's supposed to look like, but because I found health through those experiences, I'm also able to then help or minister to my kid at that point. And obviously you got to make sure how you communicate in the position you take as a parent, isn't this, you know, this is what you have to do. But speaking more out of your experience and vulnerability, like, hey, I've been where you've been and this is where I found success, or this is, you know, things I would avoid. So really taking advantage of when you do get that health, using that as your weapon to help other people find it as well.

Yeah. And I think as we have opportunity to be parents and work with our kids, whether they're in our home or growing and out of the home, it's. It's being willing to have the hard conversations and always being open to the hard conversations. And more likely, when our kids are home, we're going to be the one initiating to have the conversations and just say, hey, when I did this, did I embarrass you? Did I hurt your feelings? Or just owning our own stuff with them? And, hey, I reacted to you in a way that was not right and would you forgive me? And I think vulnerability is such a key in those relationships where our kids are able to just see, I can talk about things and bring it up, and we can work through some of the places they may feel wounded or where we're seeing things be passed on to just open up to them and say, man, I. I see you're really struggling with anger. And, you know, I struggled with anger too. And you may actually even be getting some of that from me or you might have seen it in me. And so that's how you see me reacting to situations. And I'm sorry that that's how I respond. But could we maybe work together on choosing different responses when this comes up and then being open to the conversation, Just being the kind of person that says to our kids, if, if there's any time I've hurt you, I hope you'll tell me. I hope you'll bring that to me. And I, I really appreciate that. As I went through this journey, there were a couple of times my dad said, you know, I know you've been learning a lot and growing a lot. And if, if you ever just need to talk about stuff from our relationship when you were a kid, you know, I'm open to it. And, you know, even in the last year or so, we had some really great conversations that I don't know if they would have happened had I not seen in my dad that willingness to have it happen, because they were the kind of conversations that didn't in my mind have to come up. Like it wasn't something that was ruining my life or constantly on my mind, but there were things that was like, you know, at some point it could be good to discuss. And when my dad again just said, is there any ever something you'd like to bring up or things I've done? I was like, well, actually there was, and, you know, that courage to say it. And it was amazing just how that kind of released me from some stuff and I think was eye opening to him. So in any way I can, just to encourage listeners, have conversation, be open to the conversation, because we can't avoid being humans that hurt our kids, whether intentionally or unintentionally. But we can be the kind of people that walk in repentance and humility, and that really makes a big difference.

Yeah, it's not a curse like a witch put a spell on you.

It's an important distinction to make.

Yeah, it's a curse like a pattern of destructive behavior. And yeah, we can change that for our kids. We can change that dynamic, which is good. So in here's a question. In pure desire groups. Hey, a question followed with a question. Hey, who to thunk it?

Wow.

In pure desire groups, do the group leaders also answer the questions and do the homework?

That's a great question.

Thanks.

I actually got a text from a soon to be group member of a group that I'm jumping into asking this exact question. And it's interesting because I think that we assume that leader means I've been there before and don't need to do the work again. But the beauty of really, the beauty of being a human is that there are layers to everything. There are layers to your struggle. There are layers to who you are. And the thing about pure desire groups is that if you go in as a quote unquote leader, and I know, Bob, you hate that word leader, so I'm gonna change it up. Okay. You're a facilitator. So when you come into a group as a facilitator, you need to be doing the work as well, because the group is going to not only need you to model what it looks like to put in the work and do the work necessary, but they need to know you're a safe person to share their stuff with. And so if you're not doing group and you've kind of got your cards really close to your chest and you're not showing them, then that's not inviting and that's not modeling vulnerability. So, you know, just practically you don't have to go through the homework and redo it every time. Get a brand new book. What we would encourage you to do is use the same workbook you have been using. Get a new journal. So you're doing those exercises each week. But then you're also seeing that your answers in your workbook are getting longer and are getting more filled out. You're starting to see some real clarity to what's going on. So I think that it's really important not only for a leader to continue getting healthy and doing the homework that way, but then also just the culture you create in the group is so important. And you gotta invite guys or gals into that by being a part of what's going on.

Yeah. And I would just jump in and add to that and say, as a leader or a facilitator, when we're in those lessons that it's kind of a moment of vulnerability or kind of an awkward one, like, who's gonna want to answer this? Because I've been through a number of times now. I'll just say, you know what? I'll go first. And I share as openly as I can, whether it's about how. What kind of my triggers are or what are the things I've done. And just to try to create that sense of, like, there's no shame here. We're not comparing whose answers are better or worse, but we just want to be real about what's gone on in our life. And I don't do it to show off or to somehow try to impress people. I mean, it's usually pretty authentic stuff, but it's just to create that environment of we can be real, we can talk about. And I think that's the role of the leader. So if a leader facilitator isn't sharing their stuff, it's a lot harder for the group to. Because it feels like, man, how do we live up to what. What they've created here? So just that's. That's a really important group dynamic to keep in mind.

Yeah. And even if your experience isn't the same experience as everybody in the group, which, I mean. No, that never rarely. I should say, it rarely happens. But, you know, usually the people that are in groups, I mean, you're either married to a different addict or, you know, you have a different addiction or whatever it is. But by a facilitator. Facilitator going first, they. If anything, they're modeling vulnerability. Like, if anything, they're just giving the structure for how to answer a question, even if it's not the same dynamic or it's not the same behavior.

Well, and in groups, so much of the healing that we see is because of the connectedness that men develop or women develop with one another, that bonding, that sense of people truly know me for who I am, and they love me and care about me, and that needs to be mutual to be effective. It's not the same kind of friendship bonding relationship. If you know all of my stuff and love me but I don't know anything about you, then it's more that mentor, mentee, counselor to clinic counselee relationship, which those can be good, too. But especially in that church environment, the dynamic of we're all in this together and the sense of bonding that comes is so important to the healing process. All right, so question number five here, guys. Is it a good or bad practice to compare traumas in a group?

Bad. Next question.

Why don't you expand on that, Bob?

Okay. Capital B. A, D. Yeah. So when I was in College. I had a counseling class, and one of the assignments was to go and interview somebody else, another student at school, and. And to talk to them about the most painful experience they'd ever had.

Yeah, what an assignment.

Wonderful assignment. So I went and I interviewed this guy that was in the dorms with me. And the experience that he had was that he had, I think, got injured, and he wasn't able to compete in the state championship wrestling tournament. And so I went back, I shared this. You know, I wrote it up, all the things I was supposed to do, and I got the paperback, and my professor said, I wanted you to interview somebody that had experienced some real pain. And I just remember thinking, like, well, no, I asked him, what's the most painful thing you've ever experienced? And that was his answer. And I think what kind of started a process at that time for me was to think, well, no, I mean, pain is relative. If the most experience. If the most painful thing you've ever experienced was your goldfish dying, well, that brought up real pain for you. Like, you're gonna have some pain around goldfish. But if the worst thing was, you know, losing your parents when you were young, okay, well, then that was the most painful thing. And so when we get into comparing trauma, I mean, we end up really being unfair to ourselves and the other people in the group, because your pain is your pain. It's created. It's. It's left an impact on you. It's changed the way you look at the world around you. It's changed the way you look at relationships. And so as addicts, yeah, we're. We are. We. We want to. The pendulum swings both ways. I think sometimes we want to minimize our pain and say, oh, it's not that bad, because at least it's not that. But then sometimes we also want to go the other way with it and say, well, nobody here understands me because nobody else has experienced whatever. And both of those, I think, just become justifications to not trust people.

Well, and really what's at the core of it, what the lie is that I have been taught or what I believe about myself, those are what we see are transferable from person to person. So whether you experienced your parents being divorced and that feeling of it must have been my fault or I'm not good enough for my parents to stay together can be the same for someone who had someone break up with them or didn't get into the school that they wanted to get into, and that traumatic experience for them taught them the same thing. I'm not good enough or it must be my fault. And so comparing traumas, if you do that, you lose that real what's at the core. You lose what actually connects us in our difficulties and struggles and pains in life. And so if we can avoid the actual event of the trauma and get more to the core, those are where we're going to find a lot of unity and community.

Well, I can't tell you how many times in group I've had a guy say, well, my stuff's not that bad. And I try to say, yeah, but it's your stuff, and that's why it's important, because you reacted to it emotionally. It's part of your history. It's become part of how you view the world and view other people and how you trust and like. Like you said, Bob, whether it's really mine or losing a goldfish or losing your parents, it became part of your story. And we all have to own our story and not worry of how it ranks to others, because it was our story. And we bring this up, too, like, with childhood trauma. Childhood trauma is so significant because that's the only reality. You knew you weren't in six different families comparing and like, oh, man, they've got it really bad. Compared to me, I've got it awesome. When you're 6, 7, 8 years old, that's the reality, you know? And the pain you experience, whether it's some minor neglect or outright abuse, was part of your story. So to just embrace that, it is what it is, and I need to look more at the impact of it rather than try to decide should I feel bad or not because of how extreme or not extreme my trauma is.

Yeah, yeah. Santa Claus isn't real. I'm just assuming your children aren't listening to this podcast. If so, they have to learn sooner or later.

Sorry, Bubba.

Yep, Sorry, bud. Yeah, and then the way that we think about it, too, I think with childhood trauma in particular, is that if, say, if you're making a list of your 10 worst moments in either one of the. Either Betrayal and beyond or seven pillars, eight pillars, whatever, you're making that list of your 10 worst moments. If you're five, if, whatever event you were five and that happened and you remember it now, it's because it was significant. Like, well, it's not that big of a deal, but my parents forgot me at the grocery store and they drove away. Well, you. What else do you remember from that day? Like, what else do you remember from that week? You remember that event? It's because it left a mark on you.

Yeah.

And so, yeah, just to, in general, don't minimize stuff. Just let it be what it is. And the honest answer is always the right answer when it comes to dealing with trauma.

Cool. So let's move on to the next question. And the question is, what are some ways we can identify that we've begun to establish some sobriety?

Yeah, well, the obvious answer is, am I doing the thing that I don't want to do anymore? But that's just the tip of the iceberg. Am I able to sustain a life where I'm not relapsing? Because we really believe that's possible. And I know that's obvious, but I wanted to start there because there is a cultural myth that just says, hey, guys are always going to struggle with this. You can't help it. It is what it is. Just do your best. And we really believe that's not true. You can walk and live in freedom without relapse. Now, we discussed earlier in the podcast, a relapse may happen. And that doesn't mean you've started over, gone back to some square one. But it's possible to not do the things you don't want to do, but beyond that, to kind of go a little deeper with it. I think there are five things I really look at that I just say kind of become a hallmark of sobriety. Number one is you're learning to live in truth. You're not walking around with secrets and stuff you don't tell people. You've arrived at a place in life where you're with the appropriate people at appropriate times. Your life is an open book. Number two would be all about awareness that you're really understanding. Why do you do what you don't want to do? And what are the places where you have to be really aware. So it's not just that you're white knuckling it and trying really hard not to do it anymore. It's that you recognize where you're in danger and you don't go there anymore. So it becomes a process of just following that awareness into healthy places. Number three is really that you're finding your identity in Christ now and not in your performance or your behavior or doing well enough at whatever it is you're trying to do. That. That you have this centeredness, this peace that comes from just, I am who I am because God made me this way and I can lean into his creation of me and not have to prove to anyone who I am to find value. So as you grow in that That's a part of sobriety. Number four is a community. Do you have people in your life? And we really found it's nearly impossible to maintain sobriety alone because you're going to stay in isolation and secrecy and in your faulty patterns of thinking. So whether that means you're in a group every week or you've got friends that you're closely connected to, that you're being open with on a really regular basis, you can look around and identify people that you would say, they know all my stuff. And anytime I need to, I can reach out to them for support, encouragement and help. And then finally I'd say, and maybe most important, because it's really the goal of sobriety is that we're becoming other centered. If we get healthy from one behavior to only be self centered and focused on other behaviors that are all about us, we're really not becoming that healthy. We're just changing addictions. Even if it's a healthier addiction like working out or being driven at work and successful, if it's still about us, we're not getting very far. So really looking at. Are my thoughts beginning to gravitate towards serving my family, meeting my spouse's needs, how can God use me in my church? What does he want me doing in my community? That that kind of behavior really becomes the hallmark of sobriety. And that's really the goal in my mind of sobriety. Like I become about something more than me. And that's really something I can look at to see health.

I love your answer, Nick. And I don't like the question. I don't like the question because I think that oftentimes in the recovery process we get focused on sobriety. That that is the goal and sobriety is not the goal. Health is the goal. Sobriety is a part of that. And so byproduct, write down, please rewind and write down everything Nick said because it was excellent. When it, when it comes to like establish or to knowing if you've begun to establish some sobriety. And then also remember that the reason that you want sobriety is so you can be healthy. And so don't just stop at sobriety. Don't just have that as like the end game because there's so much more beyond that. I mean it would be like saying, well, the goal of being a Christian is to not sin. No, you're totally missing the whole point. Like it's. That is not the goal. That's part of it. And you know you can function better in your walk with God if You're not, however, like, it doesn't end there.

Well, and let me say this, too. I think that it's really easy when we use the word sobriety to think that if I've relapsed, then I've gone back to square one, and, you know, now I'm not healthy anymore. I'm back to where I was when I started this journey. I think it's important to understand that how you respond in those moments of relapse or if you've taken a step back, how you respond, respond can be an indicator of sobriety being established. So if you relapse, if you look at porn or you masturbate or you sexually act out, but then immediately you call a group member, there's some sobriety that's been. You started to establish some healthy habits, like, you've taken some steps forward. And so I love what you're saying, Bob, because it is not the place we arrive, but it's part of the journey that we're headed on towards health. So really make sure that you use that opportunity in those moments to see what's really going on, to see the progress you're making.

Well, and what can be under this question sometimes, I think, especially for guys, but I'm sure for women as well, is to ask, like, well, how do I know when I'm done? How do I know if I've arrived? And to be able to say to that that's not really the goal. We're not trying to arrive. We'll never be done. We're on a journey.

Until you die.

That's right.

Yeah.

So you've arrived. Am I sober and am I done? Is like, well, no. A journey towards health is a lifelong process and goal. And so if anyone's asking the question from that point of like, well, how do I know when I'm done with this? That's a part. This is now your journey. The journey is the destination. To quote an old car commercial, the journey you're on is what health is all about. So just keep looking for those signs that you're making progress, but don't try to define that. Okay, now this is over, and I can go on to something else.

Yeah, absolutely.

All right, so sometimes we have people that are not addicts or they're not the betrayed spouse of an addiction, and they want to help those that are either addicts or betrayed spouses. What's the best way for them to kind of get started with that?

Yeah. So I think that even again, I had this question very recently, someone Say, I don't have sexual addiction. This isn't my area of struggle. But can I help in this area? And the answer is, yes, you can. I think that you should be in a group. I think that seven pillars specifically, or eight pillars, regardless of if it's a sex or love addiction, will help you with any addiction or anything that you have that you use to numb out, avoid pain in life. I think that you need to make sure that the group knows up front that that is. That's where you're at. I think that there can be an element potentially of I don't feel as safe sharing this because that person doesn't have a shared experience. And so if you find yourself in a group where that's okay and they're open to that, I think that absolutely, you should be a part of a group and have that experience. And if anything, you're also going to equip yourself with some of the tools and information necessary to help other people find it. So if you've been through a group, you can say, hey, I've been through this process, found some freedom in some other areas. But I know that this works because I've experienced it. So I think that not getting plugged in and avoiding this is the wrong thing to do. If you're trying to help people.

Well, I think if you're trying to help people and it's not been your struggle in particular, the words you use are so important that when you hear from someone who is struggling or is admitting it, to just tell them how proud you are that they're facing it, that they're actually doing something about it, and tell them you love them and you care about them. Because that's the flip side. For those who are struggling, the lies they're listening to is, I'm a horrible person. No one will love me. I'll be rejected. So you can help so much just by saying, I love you. I'm so proud of you. What you're doing is awesome, and I'm glad you're facing this. And then also just being aware of what words you use when you talk about sexual sin or struggles, because we might flippantly say, man, anyone who does this, they're just, you know, a pervert or what's wrong with them. They must not even believe the Bible because it's not your struggle. You can't comprehend why they would do it. And then you might be saying those words in the vicinity of someone who hears, yep, that's what I thought. I'm such a reject. What's wrong with me that just making sure your words affirm. There's no temptation to seize you except what is common to man. And even the things that maybe you define as being more extreme. Someone who's hearing you say that to them, that might have become their normal and they wish it wasn't. They're trying to find their way out. But when you casually or flippantly make a comment like that, it just heaps condemnation on them. So use words even when you don't think you're talking to anyone who's struggling that are encouraging and supportive because it really makes a difference in the kind of culture that you're creating.

Yeah. You could also go to PureDesire.org and buy a book called Pure Desire and that'll give you a lot of information and vocabulary to be able to engage in a conversation. I mean, just a little bit of education on the topic really gives people, you know, the, I guess the perspective that's helpful and as opposed to just saying, well, just don't do it anymore or just try harder. Do you think you pray enough or did you read your Bible today? Or I mean, you do those things and you start to kind of add shame to whatever the process is, but just a little bit of perspective even to say, oh, okay, great. Are you able to make, you know, did you make some phone calls this week to check in with somebody you know? Are you that all of a sudden you're, you're not, they don't, you know, you're not judging them or you don't sound, I don't know, like, well, meaning, you know, parent or something. But you. Okay, I can help you out with this. And that goes a long ways.

Yeah, that's so great, Bob, because sometimes I think people say, pray harder, read your Bible more just because they don't know what else to say. And those are always good practices. So it's like, well, I'm gonna give you what I got, but I don't got much. So they were to read Pure Desire to have a better response be such a great thing.

Yeah, I love these episodes, guys. I just love that we get to cover all different types of topics and we get to really hear a lot of perspective that maybe we don't on other episodes. So I learned a lot from these personally and I'm excited that you guys are here. So if you listener desire to learn more from these episodes and want to get your questions on, you can do it a couple different ways. You can email your questions to infouredesire.org. again, that's emailing your questions to infouredesire.org and just use the subject line PD Podcast the subject line PD Podcast. Or you can post your question on social media using the hashtag pdfaq. Again, that's the hashtag pdfaq. So we'd love to get your questions. So send them on in. And Nick Bob, thanks again for your time guys. Appreciate it.

Far out.

Yeah, great to be here and thank.

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