065 - Leading Conquer Groups

Welcome to the Pure Desire podcast where we partner with you to bring hope and freedom on your journey to purity. Hey there. I'm your host, Trevor Windsor. And we're so thankful you're taking time out of your day to hang out with us. I'm here with my co host, as always, Nick Stumbo.

Cleanup on aisle 5. Cleanup aisle 5.

Did someone send you that one?

No, I'm just finding the more we go on, the more random they have to become or else I'm sure I'm going to duplicate a previous one.

That's true. You know, it's interesting. My guess is the more random, the better that's going to be. That's my prediction. The more random they are, the more they will be loved.

That that could be. But I, you know, I could use some help remembering what I've said because we're on, what episode 66 here?

65.

65. Yeah. If someone would go back through, one of our avid listeners could go back through and write out the 64 that I've used so far, that would really help me.

And you know who you are, listener. You know who you are.

You know, it's. It's worth it to me. I would send them a free copy of my book for that. A little incentive there.

You heard it here first. Free copy of which one? Setting us free or safe?

Their choice. Both.

Got it. Okay.

Whoa, let's not overdo it here.

All right, so today we have back with us our operations director. I believe this is now your second time on the podcast. Welcome back. Mike Maxwell.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. By the way, had a great weekend with you guys.

Yeah, yeah, we're talking about the men's conference. That was a good time. All right, so today's episode is gonna be giving tips on leading the Conquer series groups in your church. So Conquer series is a 10 week cinematic study on sexual addiction. This is a group that we use as really an on ramp for starting the conversation on sexual addiction and really starting to get the tools necessary into the hands of men desiring to live with sexual integrity. So all three of us have been a part of these groups and have led these groups. So today we're gonna be giving you six. Actually seven. We just added a seventh. So there will be seven tips. That's right.

We usually have a bonus tip, so. So just call that the bonus tip.

That is true. So six plus a bonus on how to better lead and facilitate these groups.

Do they call that like a baker's half dozen?

I'm not sure, but I would like to get to tip number one. Tip number one is lead by example. So as a leader in Conquer series, leading by example, what does this look like?

Well, that's a great question. And I think something that's important to keep in mind is how many of these tips are the same kind of tips we'd offer to someone leading any kind of. Of recovery group. And so we, I know we have another podcast on that, like leading seven pillars groups or leading eight pillars groups or so if you want to go back and listen to some of those. But today we're trying to really give advice specific to the Conquer series. One of the things that's so pivotal about the Conquer series is how you can invite all the men in a church to come and see it, that they don't have to have this struggle, they don't have to have any background in recovery groups there. They can just come in from any place in life and engage with this material. And because of that, hopefully you're going to get some men coming into the groups that have never opened up about some of these things. They've never heard people talk openly about it in a. In a redemptive way. They've probably heard it joked about, but actually telling their story in a safe place. And so there can just be a lot of fear, there can be a lot of shame, there can be a lot of uncertainty. And so lead by example really means that as often as possible, you can give the gift of going first. And primarily those questions that involve opening up about something personally, the homework. If you're using the workbooks, a lot of the homework questions will invite you to share some of your history or things you've struggled with, just to get honest. And really, that's what can make these groups so transformative, is when men and women, because we've had a lot of churches use the Conquer series for women when they're getting really honest like that. That's where these groups really have the power to change lives. So as a leader, just be willing to say, you know, this can be a little awkward to talk about, so I'm going to jump in and I'm going to share my story first. The way that just allows others do the same thing, you know, everyone takes a deep breath and goes, oh, it really is safe to go there. And then they'll go there as well. And if you're listening to this and are thinking about leading, but you realize you're not comfortable sharing those things, that you've never done, that that may be an indicator to you to Consider getting some health for yourself first. You know, finding a way that you could go through Congress series as a participant or maybe be a part of an online group. There's some options like that. But just getting to a place where you take that, that courage, that risk to say, I'll go for it, and then let others follow me and then with that too, is just making sure that you're not, as a leader, expecting people in the group to do things you're not willing to do. And so these groups really function best when the leader is a full participant, that they're doing the homework. If there's an invitation to make phone calls, they make phone calls. That they don't stand aloof above the group, like, well, I've got this master. So this is just for you, you know, peons that need to figure this out.

Peons?

No, Lead by example is just all about saying, I want this group to be beneficial in my life just as much as I want to help you through it. And as you lead that way, it really makes for an effective group.

That's all good stuff. I know when we went through it, one of the questions that came up as we were recruiting because we hadn't gone through the Conquer series before, so we were trying to find guys that would lead and they were really intimidated by that word leader. Are there qualifications that these leaders should have? And I think Nick kind of alluded to some of those, but just curious what you guys think.

Well, I think that, you know, because I had this conversation recently, I just started another Conquer group, and what I told the group was that leadership, in my mind, when it comes to me leading or facilitating this group really has less to do with me leading conversations. And really what it is, just leading in humility and vulnerability. So I just need to be willing to be open and honest and go first and opening that door for other guys to come through. And I think that that's what real leadership looks like in these group.

I remember as we were going through it because we had nobody that had seen it before. It was really like, if you can talk about sexuality in church and ask questions, you're good to go, at least for this round, because we had nobody that would lead.

I think that's important to talk about up front as you start groups to just say, hey, I'm not leading because I'm perfect, or I've got this all figured out. I'm leading because I'm willing to facilitate the the conversation and keep us on track. Beyond that, I make no guarantees that I'VE got this any more figured out than you do. And there's kind of that old, you know, the college adage like where a professor stays a week ahead of the class. I think it's great if the group leader facilitator can kind of stay ahead a little bit. They've maybe seen the video series, had some time to think about it, where to focus in on the questions, and that's where. If you've got a number of groups in the church at one time, or if you're doing it as a large group and then breaking into table groups, you know, getting together as leaders beforehand to just kind of walk through. What are we going to emphasize tonight? What are maybe the difficult points to be aware of? And that's also the advantage of having the leaders guide, because you can get one of those for the conqueror series groups. And then as a leader, you're able to walk through that and kind of know what to look for. And it gives you a lot of those tips. And that can equip you just enough to feel like you're a little bit ahead of the class. And then, yeah, you're equipped to lead not because of your perfection or performance, but because of your willingness. Okay, let's dive into tip number two. When leading a conquer group, it's really important to avoid shaming. Avoid shaming. So how do we avoid shaming?

You know, the first thing I think of is, you know, those of us who've been around this kind of culture for a while, we feel pretty comfortable talking about sexuality, masturbation, addiction, that kind of stuff.

65 episodes worth.

Yeah, yeah. But I think being mindful that a lot of these guys coming in, they probably were nudged. I mean, it could be. It wasn't our church. They were nudged into the series by their wife. You know, we had it at the church, and their wife was elbowing them. You need to go to this kind of thing. They're afraid, they are tense. They don't know what to expect. They don't know if they're going to have to stand up and tell everybody their story, those kinds of things. Just be mindful that they have some emotions, whether you can see them or not, that are behind that face as we go into the discussions. And be gentle and kind in how you approach that humble, what you mentioned, that humility, I think, goes a long way.

Well, I think too, there's like this. If you know that there's one maybe. Maybe one guy who's in the group who's not sharing, and you can Tell that he's the only one. Be really, really what you're saying, gentle with that, but be intentional in the way that you present that. That, you know, if a guy does finally kind of come out of the shell a little bit and share, even if it's just tiny little snippet of his story, you jump on that and thank him and you make sure that he feels the full weight of your gratitude in that group and in that setting. Because that can really be the key that unlocks him sharing down the road where if he only shares a little bit and you're like, come on, man, just give me a little bit more, he may never share again in group. He may never show up again for group.

Yeah, well, I think it's important to remember that for most men and women coming to a group, the shaming is already happening. It's going on in their heads and in their souls where it says, what's wrong with you? You're the only one that struggles this way. If everyone else knew what you were doing, they'd reject you. And so that voice of shame is so prevalent that we really have to go kind of the other direction to be so grace filled and accepting. A couple areas I think that really shows up is when someone does begin to open and share that whatever they share, it might be as tame as you've ever heard or as horrible, you need to really guard your reaction to be one of acceptance and love and appreciation. I mean, and maybe they share a fetish or something you've never even heard of. And if you go, oh my God, like, what? What is that bad move? All of a sudden they're like, yep, I knew it, there's something wrong with me.

Yep.

And instead just make that habit of, wow, thank you for sharing that. That I'm so proud of you. That takes a lot of courage. And we're so glad you're part of this because we're all broken and we're all messed up and we all need that help. So I think one just your reaction. But then the second area that comes to mind, particularly when you're the group leader, you can create and guard this environment. You have to be really careful about what you allow the group to joke about. Because when it comes to sexual things, we are uncomfortable sometimes. And it's easier to make a joke about, you know, who knows about same sex attraction stuff or fetishes or porn movies and guys want to laugh about that, but to just really, in a kind of healthy way say, you know, let's just be Real mindful of what we joke about, because that may be part of someone else's story in this circle. And it's okay if that's a part of your story. We don't want to make light of it or make anything seem like it's worse or off limits. So as a group leader, that's a way to avoid shame, is just be really careful about what kind of joking you allow to go on because you may inadvertently be having someone in the group think, oh, I will never share that, because look what they all just laughed about.

Yep. Well, let me tack onto that, too. If that does happen where someone laughs, or even if you as a group leader respond negatively, like, stop the group, address it right then and there. Just say, okay, you know what? My bad. I shouldn't have laughed. Here's what I did wrong. Let's address it. Let's talk about it. Because if you do it and then just say, oh, no one noticed. Let's just sweep it under the rug, that could then set it up for future failure.

Yeah. And you might say something like, you know, we all just laughed at a joke, probably because we're used to laughing at that kind of thing, and it's the reality. We're all probably a little uncomfortable. But I just want you to know, as the group leader here, if that's part of your story, we're not laughing at you. We don't mean to. And we want everyone to know that this is a safe place to be real and use it as that teaching opportunity to say, so, guys, let's just be thoughtful about what we joke about here because we don't know what someone else is dealing with. And we want everyone to feel like they can really open up and be real in this group.

Yeah.

The other thing that I intentionally try to do because I'm a little add, I tend to be thinking ahead all the time, is when someone does open up in the group, I make sure to look intentionally at them and listen very carefully and nod. Because what I'm wanting to do is identify with them and have them identify with me so that they know that I understand what they're going through. And even if it's something that is a fetish that I don't understand, I understand the consequence of the sin and how it's going to affect their life. And so I'm very intentional in trying to make sure they know I understand what you're saying, how you're feeling about sharing this.

Yeah, that's good.

Tip number three, identify the role of the Conqueror series. The way I look at the Conqueror series is it's kind of a funnel, it's kind of a wide net. And I think we're going to talk about this a little bit. It's not a place where you're going to find healing, it's where you're going to find identification and a safe place to start this journey. That's kind of how I look at this.

Yeah.

And it is so entertaining. If you haven't seen it, it is such an awesome series. I've probably seen it eight or 10 times and I am wrapped every time. Yeah, it's just a great series.

When I think it's like in my mind I've continued to explain it this way, that it's the on ramp so it gets you up to speed and then the freeway is really when you jump into a nine month to a year long process or group. And so this is like the 0 to 60 part. Like this is getting you the language and the information and the tools to start establish some sobriety and really get going on this stuff. And it's really important. I've had this happen a couple times in group where guys, especially after night one will say, you know, I didn't realize it was going to take this long. Like I thought it was going to be a 10 week, six week kind of thing. And you need to be upfront about that. And I know as a leader sometimes it's very easy to become afraid to share that because it's like I could lose this guy because, you know, he's afraid that it's going to take a year. But at the same time, if you've got a guy who doesn't really have an idea of how long it's going to take and isn't very committed, then the second it becomes difficult, he's out. So you'd rather say that information up front, make sure the guys are committed. That way you know that guy's going to be in it for the long haul and really wants to do whatever it takes to get sober and to get healthy.

Well, and the other thing with that is to keep in mind that the video series itself explains why it's a long process. So it's okay to encourage someone and say, you know, I know maybe that was intimidating to think about. This might take years to change. But right now all I'm asking you to commit to is go through the video series with us, get through this 10 weeks and at the end of 10 weeks you're going to have an opportunity to be in or out. And if you decide this is all you want to do and you're good, there's no shame, there's. I'm not going to guilt you, I'm not going to make you feel bad, but just stick it out and really listen and learn. And if at the end you decide, wow, I need the kind of transformation that could take place, then you'll get to make that choice then. So I think it's just helpful to make it clear that by coming to the ten week Conquer series, someone isn't signing up for the next year or two of their life. We want you to understand it, so all we want you to commit to is that. And you know, Kingdom Works studios that produced the series did such a great job at making it really engaging and captivating. I think a lot of people maybe imagine the series being just this half hour teaching by someone and we're all sitting there taking notes. And the teaching components with Dr. Ted Roberts are great, but they're, you know, they're kept to manageable time lengths that then there's a video representing something from his life. They interview other, you know, great thinkers and speakers along this topic. They bring in another intriguing kind of fact based video that gets you thinking and all of that just really allows the Conqueror series to be something that anyone can identify with. That's the kind of feedback we get all the time.

The great CGI fight scenes, I mean, the reenactments.

Yeah, yeah, those vignettes are awesome.

They're awesome.

And that underscores the role of the Conqueror series is just to open this conversation, the feedback I got from men when I was running in my church because I made it clear I'd say, hey, even if you've never ever struggled with this, come and be equipped and trained. And I had a lot of men, particularly some older men, that said this was just never really my issue. But I am so glad I came because I understand this from a totally different perspective about the brain and the chemicals and what's going on in terms of bonding and addiction. And it was eye opening and it really helped change our church culture for how we felt about sexual struggles and addiction. And so I think that's a great value to keep in mind the role that it has is just to change the culture in a church of how we think about this struggle.

You know, I have two comments to fit into this tip here, and one of those is that there's so much education in the Conker series that even if a guy doesn't choose to go onto a pillars group or some other men's group right away. I still get calls from guys that took it over a year ago and going, hey, you know what? I probably need to get in a group now. So the fact that they got the education, they now have heard that this is a journey and they recognize later on as the pain gets a little greater that, hey, I know there's hope for me if I'm willing to humble myself and get in a group. The other thing that I thought was super important in relationship to the conqueror series is we did surveys. We had about 190 guys go through at our church last year and we did surveys and one of the questions we asked was, how important do you feel on a scale of 1 to 10 that this series is to your Christian walk as a man? And we must have gotten 100 surveys. It was a perfect 10. Every single man that saw it said, this is crucial to my walk as a Christian.

Yeah. All right, guys, so moving on to tip number four. This one is ask open ended questions. So why is it important that we ask open ended questions in group one?

And we mean this in terms of the kind of conversation happening in the group. You know, if you're using the workbooks, and we recommend that you do the workbooks, have some great group discussion questions that get you kind of reflecting on the video and what you saw, what you experienced, but particularly when it starts to come to the personal side, how guys are doing, how they're processing it, Just to really allow people the freedom to respond to an open ended question is important. And also we want to avoid a lot of advice giving or telling people what to do, you know, so saying, well, now that you saw that video, here's all the things you better go home and change about your lives. Because you've got to be free. And if you want to be free, this is the only way to make it happen. And, well, that sounds like a lot more teaching and that's going to put people's guards up. So much better to say, you know, now that you've seen the video, what are you guys feeling compelled to go home and do this week and just leave it there and let people respond. And another place to use the open ended questions is when people are sharing about their homework, maybe bringing up something from their own lives is they might share something that kind of surprises you or that you can see because you've got a little bit of health or you're a little bit further down the road, you can see the problem in it and you're going to want to jump in and like tell them why that's a dumb idea and instead look for a way to craft it as an open ended question. Because self discovery is always what leads to change. If you tell me what to do, then I'm more likely to do it for you or to make you happy. But if you can ask me and say, you know, when, when you took that approach with your wife, how did that work out? And let them explain how poorly it went and she didn't trust me and, and to kind of see themselves versus you telling them is just far more effective in producing change. So just always look for a chance to ask an open ended question.

You know, the other thing I think of, and I can't remember where I heard, I think it's in Pillars. Dr. Ted talks about the fact that for us to heal, we have to verbalize the problem or the pain, those kinds of things. And so in these groups is where that happens. And so we have to encourage participation because that's the beginning of where they begin to verbalize what's going on in their life, where the healing can begin. And so along with that, of course it needs to be a safe place, but we need to figure out how to draw that out of them with open ended questions and encourage them.

Well, and maybe there's a listener out there too who's like me, who if I ask an open ended question and it's quiet, I feel like I have to be the one to fill that space. Let me just like put a warning sign like, right, like danger, Danger Will Robinson. Like give it time and space because you feeling uncomfortable in the silence. Guess what? Everyone else feels uncomfortable too. And that might be the motivating factor for a guy to start sharing. So if you ask a question, you wait 10 seconds, no one says anything, and then you jump in. You might have just cut the guy out from under, you know, from under him and at his knees because you didn't realize that he was almost ready to share. He was almost at that point. So don't. If you're gonna ask questions, leave the space necessary for answers to come. Well.

And when you're pretty good at thinking on your feet and answering questions quickly, which the three of us are as represented on this podcast, you might be confused by silence and assume that it means hesitancy to answer the question right when for some people they're processing, they are actually thinking through how would I answer? How do I say it in a way that is accurate to what I'm feeling? And they're not hesitant to answer. They just haven't gotten ready to give their answer yet. And so if you're always jumping in and filling the silence, they might not ever speak up. And they. I find often that a person processing like that has great insight. And you have to wait, though, to give them space to give those answers. So don't rush to fill the space.

I often wish I'd wait a little longer than.

Yeah, don't snuff them out. Don't snuff it out. Like, let it. Let it. Let it ride.

Yeah, let it ride.

All right, guys, let's jump on to tip number five. Tip five is always point to relationship with God. So tell us about this one. What do we mean?

Oh, man, this is so near and dear to my heart. Because, you know, there's that verse that I memorized. It says, before I was afflicted, I went astray, but now I obey your word. The thing I. You know, this journey can be so painful, but the beauty of it is, at the core, it's God trying you to lead you to his heart. And, you know, I think I've. I've told you guys before I would never want to go through what I've been through again. But I also wouldn't trade it for anything because it's in this process that I ended up in the lap of God, basically. And that is so precious. And so I know when a guy initially comes in, it may be, hey, man, I just. I need to quit looking at porn so that my wife will stay with me or not take the kids. And. But ultimately, this really is not about the behavior. It's about the heart of the Christian man. And so I always try, you know, to saturate and bathe everything that we do in that understanding that this really is about your relationship with God. It's not your relationship with sex necessarily, although that is a factor.

Well, and I think, too, that a lot of guys who come into the group have had the normal response of, try harder, do better, love Jesus more. And I think that when you bring God up, especially, I know now that I've gone through a few groups that I even in my heart, feel like a real. Like, I want to be slow to that. But in all reality, like, God has to be at the center of what we're doing. And that's what I love about going through the journal and the homework. Like, you've got a devotional every day, like you're experiencing God and different aspects of it. If you're doing your Sword drill, and you're starting to see some faster scale stuff that's tied to who you are in Christ and your identity. And so if you're just giving guys tips and tools on how to get free but not how to get closer to the Lord, they'll walk out. Maybe not masturbating anymore, but they're not any closer to Jesus than they were before they started.

And that's not what my heart wants. I want him to love Jesus and to know that relationship, that preciousness.

I think it's A.W. tozer that says that what we think about God or what we believe about God is the most important thing about us. And one of the opportunities you have in the Conquer series is to really help a man or woman see that. I think God thinks about me the way I think about me. And if I've been living with secrecy, with shame, with a sense of isolation, fear of rejection, then it's almost impossible for me to not transfer that onto God and think that's how he feels about me. And so in this series, the opportunity for people to realize that is not how God feels about my sin. That's not how God looks at me. He doesn't see me through my shame and my sin. He actually sees me through the righteousness of Christ and who he made me to be. And he's with me in this. The way that that can shape and change our view of God and of faith really is what makes this sustainable change. Because we're not just, as you mentioned, Trevor, changing a behavior. We're changing the way we view God and his relationship with us, and that will benefit us the rest of our lives.

You know, it's interesting as you talk about that, I think one of the most impactful parts of my healing was that realizing that my performance was not necessary. It wasn't tied to how God felt about me and that he loved me so much. Yeah, that he was. This sounds terrible, but he allowed me to go through the consequences of my sin to get my attention, and I'm so grateful for that now. At the time, you know, that was a little painful, and I was squirming and fighting the whole way. But I think through this process of dealing with our sexuality is such a intimate thing at our core, that if God can touch us there, he can touch us in a way that he doesn't touch us outside of that.

Yeah, well. And again, this isn't the first time we've said this on this podcast, too, that this issue or this struggle in a lot of ways is so closely tied to how we feel about ourselves. And so if I struggle with sexual addiction or pornography, then I somehow am like a JV Christian or I'm a lower tiered Christian, and I must not be as gifted or as godly. And that's not true. And so that's why it's so important to tie all this back to your relationship with God, because you never were taken off the field and put on the bench. Maybe you're just playing with an injury that God wants to heal up so that you can play at full speed.

So tip number six, don't skip the Groot guidelines and tools.

Yeah. So this is something I just experienced even a couple weeks ago. We just started Conquer backup, and as I'm going through them, I'm thinking, man, there's so much that has to be explained through this. If you've never been in a pure desire group before, if you've never experienced the faster scale, sword, drill, any of this, like, what's a double bind? Like, if you don't know what that is, bro, spend time talking about it. So we kind of rushed through it. Yeah. So this is. This is coming from a failure on my part that I should have spent the whole first night. Don't rush into the videos. Make sure that you spend the right amount of time on the guidelines. So guys know exactly what they're getting into when they sign the covenant to contend and the memo of understanding. And then when you're talking about the tools and explaining those, you don't want confusion on week one, because if you go into week one of recovery, because this is week one for a lot of guys and you're confused on what to do, then that guy is not set up for success that week. And that's really where you start a new trajectory and you start some momentum. And so really spend the time necessary to do these things.

And you haven't really built the relationship yet that they feel like they can pick up the phone and call you.

That's true.

Admitting I don't know how to deal with this on my own, which is already an issue.

Yeah.

And explaining the group guidelines and taking some time on the tools. It's a lot like knowing the rules of a football game before you play football. I mean, if you just toss a football out on a field and people have never played the game, you're like, all right, play football. Well, what ensues is just going to be chaos and it's not going to look like football at all because it.

Sounds hilarious right now. Just Thinking of little kids trying to play football without rules.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But that's kind of like, if you just turn on the video and like, let's dive into the book is people haven't created the framework of what does health look like? What is going to move me in that direction? And if we just come with these expectations that we watch a video, we answer some questions, we're probably not gonna get out of it as much as we could. And at the same time, having said that, give people a lot of grace. Like, make sure to say, as you're explaining these things to say, it's okay if you don't get all of this. Right now, I'm just trying to paint the picture and help you kind of get your feet wet. We're gonna keep using these tools, we're gonna keep going through them, but we wanna have kind of a basic understanding before we get too far here. And so just kind of relieve that stress or pressure that they've gotta master it all in week one. But at the same time, don't let that fear of we don't want to bog down. And you just skip it, because then actually it'll cause a lot of problems later where people aren't following the group guidelines and they're talking out of turn or they're giving advice and you're like, holy cow, why is this group so ineffective? And you realize, oh, it's because we're not actually doing the group the way we're encouraged to. And so we put them in the workbooks for a reason. They're there on purpose. And again, that's why it's so great for every person in a group to have their own workbook. Because then they've got a copy of it right there. They've got the memo of understanding that they've signed. They can flip back to it and they can remember, oh, yeah, this is what makes this group healthy and effective. Now that I know the rules, I can play a good game, I can be a part of the team. And so just keep using that to have a really good group experience.

Yeah. And with that, too, if you have to call foul, if someone breaks a guideline but you haven't established it, then there's no accountability there. And that diminishes the safety that guys feel, and the shame could just increase. So to quote Ashley Jamison, who's on the podcast all the time, she calls the leader of the group, the facilitator is the guardian of the guidelines. And so your job is to be on top of that as much as you can. So it's got to be done.

Night one sounds like a movie.

It's great. So if we could get someone to fund that, that would be fantastic. Alright, so the last tip, bonus tip, tip number seven is to give guidelines to the group members for sharing with their spouse. What do we mean here?

Yeah. Before you send people home, you want to make sure you talk about this a little bit. One is just to emphasize confidentiality because there's probably going to be things shared in the group that really need to stay in the group and that includes with spouses. And so I always make a point at the end of the first group gathering to say, hey guys, I know we all have a great relationship with our wives, or hopefully we do. We probably share things with them we don't share with anybody else. But what you heard here tonight is off limits. You can share anything you learned or what you have shared, but do not share anyone else's story, even if you think it's confidential. And she'll never guess who it is. No, you just cannot do that. So the stories you heard here stay here. So give some real clear direction around confidentiality. And then the second thing is just to remind guys that going home and so spilling everything to their wife tonight would not be wise. As the Conqueror series brings up, we really want to get a track record of health. We want to work through some of our own denial and the ways we've minimized it before. We try to get real open with our wives. But on the other hand, I try to remind guys too, you don't want to go home and say nothing like and pretend you were just out at the store or something. It's okay to say to your wife, you know, I'm going to this men's purity group and I think I'm really going to learn a lot from it. It and try to be honest and truthful that you're going to something without then trying to just open the whole book on week one. Because there really is, as you'll learn from the series, a lot of wisdom and discernment that as we're sharing with our spouses, we're doing it in a healthy way and a helpful way and not just trying to get something off our chest. So to really kind of coach your guys up a little bit before they leave, especially that first week or two in areas of confidentiality and of how to share something with their spouse is really important.

Yeah. You know, it's interesting when as I'm listening to you talk in Being in groups over the years, men have widely varying levels of openness with their wives. I can guarantee there'll be some guys in here who their wife has no idea their level of struggle. And there may also be guys in there that are completely open about it and their wife knows everything. And so you can't assume just because I'm open with my wife, for instance, that I can be open with my wife about your stuff as well. So, you know, my brain would go, well, this is just common sense. But the reality is you do need to address it simply because if it's unspoken, like you said, they're going to come up with their own guideline on this and it's going to be based on their own experience.

Well, and even if you're a leader, and even because, I mean sometimes if you're in a tight knit community, sometimes spouses know who's in your group not because anybody has told them, but just that's the nature of it. That's when you have to be the most careful as a leader to not share stuff like oh, so and so said this or so and so said that, or you know, hey, maybe you should reach out to this wife because I know that this is going, don't do that. That's not your place. Don't do that. The place. That person is supposed to be a counselor. So that person needs to be someone who's a professional that can enter in like that. And so just be aware of you are, you really are protecting your guys by doing that, by keeping confidentiality. You're not just protecting yourself because legal stuff could come up too. But really you're just protecting everybody in the group and even the spouses. If you make sure you maintain what should and shouldn't be shared.

By the way, shameless. Plug. We have counselors that can help you plug.

I love that.

Yes, we do.

So this has been awesome. I think there's lots of good stuff in our conversation and anyone out there who's either leading or wants to lead a conquer group, definitely there's some stuff in here for you. So these groups really again are a great on ramp into the journey to finding freedom from sexual addiction. The more guys you can get involved in this, as we've said, the healthier your church and community can be. So remember that all the guys should always be encouraged to go through this series, even if they don't currently struggle with sexual integrity. This could be something that's so helpful for your church. So again, we hope our conversation today gives you insight on how to really create effective groups and even, even start up an effective purity ministry in your church. So, Mike, Nick, thanks so much for your time.

All right, great to be a part of it. Thanks guys.

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