066 – Developing Group Leaders

Welcome to the Pure Desire podcast, where we partner with you to bring hope and freedom on your journey to purity. Hey there. I'm your host, Trevor Windsor, and we're so thankful you're taking time out of your day to hang out with us. I'm here with my co host, as always, Nick Stumbo.

It's pumpkin spice latte time, my friends.

It's true. It really is.

It's everywhere.

Pumpkin spice or die.

It's in my Cheerios, my muffins. Like, pumpkin spice has cornered the market.

Do you think that pumpkin spice exists? Like, it's kind of like if no one's around and the tree falls, does it make noise? Does pumpkin spice exist outside of the fall?

Yeah, it's like, is there a pumpkin that you go to? And this is a pumpkin spice pumpkin, but this is just a regular pumpkin. Like, how did someone determine this is a pumpkin spice? Because it's not just pumpkin. It's like pumpkin plus.

Right?

It's. And who got to decide this is what constitutes pumpkin spice flavor?

Well, and people say that pumpkin spice is a white girl thing. Why does it have to be a white girl thing? And why does it have to be a girl thing? I think everybody likes pumpkin spice.

Pumpkin spice is the unicorn of fall.

So let's just stop right now because for sure, we could do an entire episode on PSL right now, but we're not going to. So today we have Ashley Jamison back with us. Ashley is the international groups coordinator for women's groups. You already heard her talking already on the podcast. Thanks for being here.

Glad to be here.

So today we're going to be talking about how to develop pure desire group leaders in your church. So this is an essential piece to really growing peer desire groups. And today we're just going to be talking through how to best identify, how to equip, and really how to develop group leaders in your church.

Well, it's such an important topic, Trevor. We get the question a lot. You know, we know we want to do something for our church. We need to start groups, but we don't have anyone to lead the group. So what do we do? And it can be a real kind of stopper for someone to say, where do we begin? And so hopefully this episode gives them some ideas, gives them some things to look for, and they can see a pathway. If they're going from, you know, nothing to something. What does that look like? I also hope that for other listeners who've maybe never been a leader, they won't just tune this out, but they'll be listening to consider, could I help? Could God use me in this way? Because I think that word leader is something we can just reject and like, oh, that's not me. But you know, what we've seen with groups and the people that end up leading God can use anyone. There's just some things to be looking for. And I think in this podcast that's exactly what we're going to talk about. And so for all our listeners though, just really look into this episode as a way to say, God, how could you use me to have influence in the life of others? Because that's really what we're talking about today. And we're excited to get Ashley's input on this. And so let's start off with this. Ashley, why is it important to develop other group leaders for your pure desire groups?

Well, I think that's kind of a two part question because it is so important to develop other group leaders because the curriculum, one, first of all, one, the need is huge. There will probably never be enough group leaders for the amount of people and teens that need this kind of group. So we just need a lot. We get calls every day. Rich and I are constantly flooded with calls of people looking for groups everywhere. They're just not enough out there. There's not enough group leaders out there. But developing group leaders, like let's say in your local church, is really important because the groups are really long. They're, you know, seven to nine months because we know, you know, it's proven that it takes a long time to heal and renew the mind and develop new patterns and recover. And so with groups being that long and then being a safe number of four to six, you can have one leader tied up with just four to six people in your church for seven to nine months. So if you don't have other group leaders coming up in the ranks, then, then that one leader could get burnt out. You have somebody calling at your church who needs a group and they have to wait eight or nine months to get into the next one. So there are just so many reasons why the churches need to be focusing on developing leaders because so many of their members are struggling with this issue and need a place to go.

Well, and something too. Just on a practical side, the personal burnout that can happen if that leader is the one who's consistently going through and leading these groups can be a real issue. You know, I've met some guys and some gals who have done it for a certain period of time, haven't developed any group leaders. And then the ministry just dries up because that person's got to check out and they don't offer groups for an extended period of time. So that's a real issue. And then another thing too just to consider from a ministry standpoint is, is are you setting yourself up to be the hero or the one person that people can go to for this? Because if you're the only person leading groups, then you become the hero of the story and that's not your role or your job. And so if you develop other group leaders, then you end up giving this ministry away to other men and women and not setting it up as this hierarchy or top down type thing where you're setting yourself up to be the all star or the superhero.

Well, yeah, and the principle is there that growth and leadership go together. So if you only have one leader, you're not going to have much growth. But, but if you develop leaders, you're planning and also facilitating the growth. And so if there is that one person in your church that's like, oh well, they lead those groups, you know, quote unquote, then you'll always be limited to that one person's capacity. And that's not healthy in any ministry, let alone one that we know is such a pervasive problem in the church. And the other thing I think about from what we're talking about here, we're hoping to develop healthy people. And healthy people may feel called to go on to other things because their sobriety is intact. They've really seen God transform their life and they feel like the healing that they have is now enabling them or they're responding to God's call to go be a part of another ministry. And you don't want someone to develop to a point of health and then leave leadership of pure desire groups that now you have nothing left. So to just kind of have that plan. And there will always be some people that we hear from them frequently, they feel called to this kind of ministry and they're going to do it the rest of their life because it's just part of what God's doing in them. And we love that and celebrate that. But I really believe there's going to be many other leaders that, that this is for a season in their life, this is for a couple of years. They're pouring into others, but they're going to go on and you know, join a church staff or become a small group leader or serve in other ways. And we want to celebrate that and not hold onto them like, oh no, we're Losing our only leader. If you're continually developing other leaders, then when someone does come to you and say, I feel God calling me now to this, you can celebrate, say, that's awesome. Because of the health in your life. Look what doors are opening for you because. And then you've got other leaders that are ready to step in and take those groups and keep growing them.

Yeah. So we've talked about this a bit on the podcast before, but I just want to address it again just as we're talking through this. What, if any, are the prerequisite requirements for being a group leader? Are there any?

Yeah, we have some basic things that we see will contribute to the overall health of a group. Getting going and, and staying strong, which would be that the leaders have some sobriety. I, you know, we see often if somebody's gone through a group already and they really gained a lot of traction and sobriety, then, then they should go on and lead another group or co lead the next group. So that's a good amount that they're constantly making forward motion in their recovery that they're not, you know, still in relapse after they've gone through a group. And it's really beneficial that the, that they're familiar with the material because if you try to lead it and you've never been through it before, oftentimes you're working through it on your own or things could pop up or trigger you that you need to process. So really those are two main things that they've. They're familiar with the material, they've been through it before, and that they've established some sobriety. But with that being said, sometimes, you know, like in my case, that it really is the person who needs it, who gets it going, and that in that case you'd want to make sure that that person has a lot of support around them. You know, the church counselors, the pastor connected with other leaders through, you know, our connections that we have at Pure Desire and just making sure that they're really supported.

Well, and we say it right there in the memo of understanding that hopefully every group is signing as they start that it says, this group is not being led by an expert, but someone qualified by life experience. And that's really where it's at, that you don't need a degree, you don't need a counseling certificate, you don't need to go to advanced training. I mean, there's definitely training that Pure Desire provides that can help. But we don't want to set any bar to say, well, you've got to achieve this before you can be a leader. It's really about so many other aspects of your life. And I remember, even for myself, when I was finishing a year of counseling with Dr. Ted Diane Robertson, I said, man, I'm starting to get ready to lead groups at my church, but I don't feel ready. Like, what do I need to do to get ready? And they encouraged me. They said, you're as ready as anyone could be. You know, you've spent a year in counseling, you've been in groups. Just take what you've been learning and take that format and pass it on to others. And there was kind of this moment, like, oh, that's all. Like, I almost wanted them to give me something more in this. And they just said, you're not the expert here. You're just helping people encounter the same material you did. And with that expectation, it was like, oh, I can do this, and maybe I don't feel ready, but I don't have to be ready in some teacher kind of way. I'm just passing on what was really passed into me.

Yeah, yeah.

You know, something for. For me, because I didn't have counseling, and I really had just started my healing when we started groups, my journey. And so I think one of the things that I found to be most helpful is just someone who's consistent. Are you willing to show up every week? You know? Cause I think that there are times we obviously would encourage people, if you can go through group first before you lead, that's best for me. We didn't have that luxury. And so we just jumped in and I just started leading. Um. Did I do a great job? Of course not. You know, it was the first time through group, but at the same time, I was consistent. I showed up every week and I just said, I'm gonna try this, and I'm gonna be. I'm gonna be all in on this. And I think that that's something that really does help and does cater to someone who can lead a group. So even if you haven't been to a Pure Desire University event or gone through counseling or been through group before, you still can lead. But just understand that you're more facilitating than you are actually leading. Like, Nick, you're saying we're not pulling people on. You know, we're not trying to educate people. We're allowing the resource and the material to do that. We're just being consistent and trying to show up every week and do what's asked of us.

Yeah, I think that's a really Good point. And I've even said to some of my groups that I've helped get started where they didn't have an actual leader, that it's a lot different. If Pure Desire didn't offer so many resources on how to lead a group, how to use the tools, you'd almost all be sitting there trying to figure out what the best way was. But I found that's a really good approach to say we're all going to figure this out and we're all going to keep the group guidelines and we're all going to stay on track and make sure we're running it the same way so that they can kind of keep each other, take ownership in the group together. And because we offer so many leadership tools, it's like a little compass that they can just keep going back to to make sure their group is on the right track. And it's nice when they can step in like that. It takes a lot of pressure off the new leader.

So, Ashley, just to jump back to your story a little bit, because you talked about you started groups in your church simply because you were the one that wanted to make it happen. But I know I've heard you tell your story, and if people have been listening to the podcast, they've heard some of it as well, that your marriage was not in a great place, you weren't in a great place personally, so why were you willing to jump in and try to start those groups? What was it that gave you the courage to say, I'll go for it?

Well, I had checked out a peer desire group at another church, and I just really felt a call, a check in my spirit after about four times going that. I mean, I didn't start it. I attended that. My church didn't have anything like that, and I really needed to move through the material a little faster than the group was going. And they weren't using just Pure Desire material. They were using other things. And I really latched onto the Pure Desire curriculum. So I wanted to be in a group where that was the only curriculum being used. And so I just thought, you know, I'll go talk to the pastor. And I looked on the website and made an appointment with two pastors that I thought would be have some saying power in starting the groups. And I actually first asked if they had anybody to lead them in that great big church. And they said there was nobody they could think of and nobody that would lead that kind of ministry and that I had the freedom to do it. And they even said, you know, you'll probably get some skinned knees. And the counselor was worried and they said they were throwing me to the wolves. And she was worried for my soul that I was going to lead this kind of group. I mean, it was very overwhelming, but I really, really wanted to go through the Pure Desire material and there was nobody to lead it. And so I just. I just did it. And it was, you know, like Trevor said, I made a lot of mistakes. And as soon as I learned some really great guidelines and implemented them, then the groups just took off. So if you can just be willing and really stick to the guidelines that we provide, then your groups will probably do really well.

Well, I think in your story, Ashley, there's some elements there that anyone listening could try and identify in their own life that, number one, you saw a need. Number two, you felt a call. And number three, you proceeded with a covering from your church that even though they didn't have anyone else to lead it, you at least went to your pastors and you were doing it with their encouragement and their help. And I think anyone listening that has those three factors in place, they see a need, they feel a call, and they've got the covering of their church or pastors to start, should definitely consider diving into group leadership, even if they've not really experienced a full group before. So if a church or someone is looking at, well, boy, what do I look for in identifying leaders? What kind of things come to mind? We've already mentioned a few. You know, someone that's available. But what are the kind of characteristics or just the trademarks you look for in someone that say, man, I think they'd really be great at leading groups. What comes to mind for you?

There's a few things. And because I lead groups continuously, I constantly can see who the next leader kind of is going to be. And the things that I notice are because our group guidelines are so crucial to how well the group's going to do it has to be somebody that's not afraid to keep the group guidelines and to make sure that those stay strong. That's the number one. Doesn't matter if they're shy or vocal or whatnot, because they're really just guiding people through the material. Somebody that shows up and always has their work done. I can tell if they really take the material seriously because their answers are thorough and done when they show up, they always show up on time. And honestly, I think I've shared this in one of the universities. You can have somebody who seems a little cranky and maybe controlling end up Being a really great leader. I was. And because they really want things to be done right, or they really want something that they need, and so they're willing to be a little bit feisty to get it. And that can actually turn into a really great quality for a leader as long as they can, you know, still be nice in the process.

Yeah. When looking at this question, you know, I recently just started up another Conquer series, and I had a couple of the guys talking to me about. They were excited that I was leading the group. And, you know, I feel like I need to quote Bob and Rebecca Vandermeer a little bit. They hate the word leader when talking about pure desire groups. They like facilitator. And I kind of have adopted that. And what I responded was, I'm really not leading the group. I'm just. If anything, I'm leading in vulnerability. So I'm just gonna be the first person to share and open the door and try to diminish any shame that might be in the room or really just invite other people into telling their story. And so for me, that's what I would look for. I'd look for someone who's characterized by being someone who allows other people into their life, who's vulnerable and authentic in sharing their story and is willing to just show the mess of their life to invite people into that. Because if you're closed off and you've gone through the material, leading a group, I think is going to be difficult if you're not willing to be that vulnerable person who goes first. So that'd be just one thing I look for.

Yeah. And that's actually why I like the word leader and not to agree with Bob and Rebecca, because I totally get where they're coming from. We don't want someone to feel scared away because they're not an expert or trained professional. Or maybe that high definition of leader. But at its basic definition, a leader is someone that goes first that they're leading because they're doing it as well. And I think that's so crucial. And when I think of what makes for a good group leader, it's someone that's willing to do the work themselves. And so when they say, hey, we should all be making our weekly phone calls, they'd better be making their weekly phone calls. And when they say the homework is so important, they'd better be modeling that because they're doing the homework. And so there is that leadership quality of do what I'm doing. And I'm confident if you'll do what I'VE been doing that this is going to work for you as well. Not because there's anything special about me, but because I get it. I understand how this material works and I'm working it to the best of my ability in my life. And I'm asking you to follow along. Not necessarily follow me because there's something great about me, but follow me because I'm watching it work in my life and I'm pretty confident it'll work in your life too. Yeah.

Alright, so let's look at the flip side of that. So we kind of have an idea now that what the prereqs are for someone being a group leader, what are some things we look for in those people? Let's look on the other side of that. What are some things we should avoid when looking for group leaders?

Yeah, we have a really great part of the conference that we cover some group members that can maybe cause some deterioration in the group. And I think when you have somebody who's really wanting to give advice or not willing to look at their own stuff very deeply, just wanting to help others, sometimes it become. It can become a baby, you know, a baby for them that this ministry is their baby and they want to do for others, but they're not necessarily healthy yet. I think you touched on it in the beginning. It might have been you, Trevor, when you said that if you just have one leader and it's not growing or maybe it was Nick that sometimes to me is like a red flag. I know it's not always intentional, but if you're not willing to let other people lead and let other people have say, then it kind of can be a red flag. And so when I see somebody wanting to just take control and not focus on their own needs or their own issues or even wanting to invite other people in, then it can be a red flag that this really has just become their little precious baby ministry that they want to be in control of. And I would never put anybody in a leadership position in church like that until they can figure that out.

When I think about maybe some things to avoid, it's just looking at that maybe that pride, humility, scale. And if they just really come off as prideful or arrogant or got it figured out, let me tell you what to do. That's very different than what I was explaining about leadership being. I'm working hard on this in my own life, so follow what I'm doing. That can come out of humility to say, I don't know anything special. I'm just following this Group material. And I think you could follow me as I do it. But if someone comes across as now I'm the expert, that really can change a group dynamic in a hurry. And I think too, you want to guard against someone that's just always monopolizing conversation, that every comment that's made, they jump in and make another one or they give advice or they share a story. They're always going off script because again, like we said earlier, they're not necessarily following the group guidelines. And they may even be super smart and super spiritual and come across as super mature, but they're not really going to facilitate good conversation because everyone's just going to let them talk. And if they become in the leadership role, then they'll think the people in the group will feel like that's what the group is. It's we're just here to kind of listen and learn from whoever. And when he's done talking, then we're pretty much done. Yeah, and that's not going to be a great group environment either. So just a couple things to look for someone that's humble, that listens well and can really encourage conversation among the group members. Those are some super important things.

Yeah.

I would tack on a couple others. I call this person a checklist leader, where it's just the next thing they get to do. It's. It's the next. So they're all about getting the positions or checking the next ministry off their list. And so it's like, oh, well, I served in worship and now I'm going to serve in children's and oh, let's lead a pure desire group. And so it's almost that they're trying to attain some sort of status. So just be aware I can be one of those people. And so I've had to work to make sure that that's not part of why I'm leading. But then the other one, it's weird. I'm both of these people actually.

The innovator, always the best example.

I know, it's so great, is the innovator the person who either goes rogue or wants to make this group their own. So, you know, there have been times in group where I felt this way. I don't know if I've actually flat out done it in group yet, but if I don't like a certain exercise or something like that, if I'm the type of person to say, I don't really like that, let's just try something else or do something that I feel comfortable with, then I'm an innovator, and I'm going rogue. And I think that that really takes away from the group experience. It makes it more about me and what I think the group should do, rather than trusting the material itself to lead the group and to lead the healing. So basically, if I hijack the roadmap of other people's healings, then I'm not the type of person that needs to be leading a group.

Yeah, that's a great point, Trevor. I think we get that sometimes from leaders that are like, well, I'm leading because I had some better ideas of how to do this. And it's like, maybe slow down, you know, trust that there is some good stuff here. And before you change it, make sure you've fully explored why the tools are there the way they are. And so I think that's a great point of what to watch out for.

Let me say something to that one more time, too. I think that if. Because I think that can come off, like, Pure Desire, we have it all figured out and our material will never change. That's not true. If you do have stuff that you think would improve the group, let us know. Like, we want to know that stuff because we want to try to create the best group experience and the smoothest healing journey we can for other people. So if you are an innovator and you do have great ideas, email us, let us know. We'd love to make these resources as best as they can.

Yeah, that is good. That's really good advice. Because I found myself messing up some groups a couple of years ago because I did have so much knowledge just from starting to work at Pure Desire. And you really can. I mean, the groups are really packaged in a nice way for people to be able to work through the material and the order and the pace they need. And so sometimes when we throw in all this other great stuff, like, well, I heard this great sermon. That's all. Listen to it this week. Or I heard this. There's this great book. It's really hard to resist that, but it's. It's really important. And people just need to be able to focus on one thing at a time and do it well and then move on to something else.

So once we've kind of identified who would make a good leader, we're seeing in them some of the characteristics that we would look for, and they're not displaying the things that we would avoid. Or maybe they've even had some of the challenges, but we've lovingly confronted them to say, hey, you know, do you Realize you dominate conversation. And we've seen change. So we're seeing this is a person that's really capable of leading. What is the next step to getting them involved in leading groups?

Well, if they're already in your group, that's pretty, it can happen pretty organically where you just start maybe asking them to help lead, you know, the faster scale. Or even sometimes if you're, you know, five or six months into the material and you have to be gone and you don't have a co leader, that's a great opportunity for you to ask that person to step in and lead the resource. I really like to start encouraging people, you know, halfway through the material, a little bit towards the end that they could go on and lead. And usually you can see their eyes light up if that's something they've just been waiting to be asked to do. If, if, if they've never led. One of our really, really great leaders and she's also an RGL for Pure Desire, Sarah Peters. I had invited her to go through the material with me a little bit and start co leading, you know, start leading a group and, and I just stayed with her for a little bit and then let her have it when she had it under control. So kind of just coached her and helped kind of walk around the field and then, you know, let her have it. And that really worked well too. Just so she felt supported.

And I think too just if, because I agree with you, Ashley, I think that's the best way to get someone into that role is to then give them feedback and have that open dialogue with them. Like I really appreciated when you said this, when asking this open ended question or the way that you shared here, your vulnerability, really hitting on that. But then if there are some things that you saw that didn't go very well, still being gentle, but being honest. Like, okay, you might have dominated conversation here or you might have tried to give advice there. That way that person has an idea going into the next week, okay, here's some things I can work on. So still, I mean investing in them in that process, not just saying, hey, just do what I need you to do when I'm not able to do it or when I need you to do it, it's no, I'm going to be more invested in your development as a leader. So let's have, and whether that's like coffee, you know, once a week or that's 15 minutes, you know, extra after group, just set up a time where you have an open dialogue with them.

I think involving Them in that role as a co leader is so important, and it makes me think of what, you know, what you guys are talking about. I ran across an author named Dave Ferguson. He lays out this pattern. I'm sure it's not unique to him, but his progression was to say, I do, you watch, we talk. So the first time, I'm modeling, but you know that I'm developing you for this. So you're watching me from a different lens of, okay, I need to kind of really pay attention to what he's doing. And then we talk about it after the group. And then the next time I do, you help, we talk. So now I'm engaging you in a more active way. You're actually getting a piece of the action. And now I'm helping you see what could have been worked on. The third stage is we do together, and then we talk. Fourth stage, you do, I help, we talk. And then by the fifth stage, you do, I watch, we talk. So by the end, they're doing maybe running a whole group. And the nice thing with a pure desire group experience usually being, you know, anywhere from seven to 10 months long, you really do have time to walk someone through those phases where initially they don't need to do anything. They just know they're watching you and learning. And then by the end, you don't do anything. You're just watching them and providing constructive feedback and praise for what they're doing. Well, and by the end of that 10 months, if you've walked through that progression, a person could feel really equipped to lead because, in essence, they've done all the leading with your support there. So I think that's a good model to kind of follow in a group setting.

Yeah, we use that model at our church too, where Rodney Wright pastors. That's a great model. And one of the ways, like what you were saying, Trevor, with checking in with them and giving feedback, I found a really good way, especially if this is new to you and you're not confrontational and you're worried to give people feedback a really good way. I talked to my leaders was to ask, you know, well, how did you think things went? And when they start explaining, well, these two, it seemed like this woman was triggered by this woman or. Or they. They just start kind of explaining maybe some of the negatives that happened during that group almost always can they be fixed with applying or tightening a guideline? And so just by having them tell me what they thought was a win and maybe a fail or win and a challenge or something like That I can usually apply a guideline and say, okay, well, if you have her wait to share until it's her turn instead of having her comment right after that woman, then that would take care of that. And. And it really works well that way too.

So we've already kind of talked about this just a little bit. Is the idea of once we get these people involved, you want to begin to develop them as a leader. So what are some other ways. What are some additional ways we can develop these group leaders as they're stepping into it and as they're wanting to improve as Pure Desire group leaders.

Something that was really, really good for me, starting groups at a big church with a booming life group system, and I was a hot mess was having my pastor one on board meeting regularly with our counselors, even though they didn't know what Pure Desire was about. I had ongoing support. And then we started doing a co. Once we had more groups going, we started doing like a co ed leaders meeting once a month on Sunday. And we would cover a peer desire topic or a group guideline. We'd all talk about our wins and our challenges for the week in our groups. And we. Anytime we had a potential co leader or I saw somebody that could be a good leader, I would invite them to that meeting so they could start listening and getting some energy from the group meetings with the leaders. Another thing was our church was really invested in us. So our pastors paid for U.S. leaders to go to the Pure Desire men's conference and the Pure Desire women's conference. If there were other opportunities for training in the area, they would pay for us to go through that. And so we were really supported. And I feel like that is what made our groups go from zero to probably 35 groups within three years. Men and women and teens.

I'm just looking down at the list I had on this question. It's like, check, check, check. Okay. Ashley said everything I would say. The only thing I might add, look for ways to resource your leader, like making sure they have the leader's guide if that would be helpful to them. Because almost all of our groups have a leader's guide that do provide some tips and what to look for and in each pillar or lesson, kind of some pointers there or providing supplemental material. You know, there's so many great books being written about the brain and sexual addiction and recovery to just as a gift, maybe once a quarter to resource your leaders with some of the new book that's come out and not everyone's a reader. So you Got to kind of know your context for that, but then also just turning them on to the things that have benefited you, whether it's a podcast like this or blogs that you read. I think the more we can encourage that attitude of learning, the better leaders are going to be. Because anytime we get into a role and we think, okay, well, hey, I'm a leader, I've got it figured out, we're not going to actually lead very well. But when we stay in that learning teachable mentality of I'm just, I'm going to keep growing, that's the best place for a leader to be. So any way that you can encourage a developing leader to just keep developing, that's going to lead to some really good outcomes.

So a couple other practical things off of that same idea, Nick is connecting them to their regional group leader. I think is a really beneficial thing where they're connecting to a network of other leaders around the country and even in their area. And off of that too, I found a lot of really benefit in connecting with other group leaders in the area. So people who aren't even in my church, but connecting with other churches and other groups that are there and having that dynamic really adds kind of this camaraderie and this big C church kind of feel in the community, especially in such a difficult topic to talk about in the church. Obviously, Nick touched on the podcast. That's really the whole point of these. But also go to a Pure Desire University event. I mean, these events are literally for training and development and how to better do this, better understand it, and really get this ball rolling in your church. So those would just be a couple of the practical things I think of.

Yeah, that's really good. And your regional group leader can help you connect with other leaders. A lot of times they host a video hangout with all of the leaders in the community, like Trevor was talking about. But it's a way that you could be invited to that meeting and meet other leaders.

And we'll make sure to put in the show notes a link to the regional group leader page so you can search and find any leaders in your area.

You know, another thing that comes to mind for me is as you guys are talking, some might be listening and thinking, well, I'm the only group leader in my church, so, you know, leadership training, is it me, myself and I, or how do we do that? Look around for other churches in your community that are running Pure Desire groups, or if you're using Conquer, or if you want to reach out to Ashley for women's groups or rich here at Pure Desire to just say who is in my vicinity and figure out if you could link up with them, you know, once a month or once a quarter, just to talk about how are groups going at your church? What are you learning? Because that networking is so valuable and many churches aren't especially initially going to have networking with their own leaders. There just won't be that many groups. So if you're in a place where you're one of the only groups or the only leader that can feel isolating, that can feel alone, but in all likelihood, there are other churches, at least within a drivable circle, that you could arrange for a meeting with just to. Just to idea share and problem solve together and do some case studies. And what an encouragement that can be to have that little bit of wind in your sails, to know that someone else is out there doing what I'm doing and we're connected relationally. So some encouragement there. If you're kind of the only one in your church, look around and if you can't find anyone that you know of, reach out to us and see if we can't help connect you with someone in your area.

Absolutely. I would say the reverse is true too, Nick, because we had such a strong support system at Lake City Church when I was there. If I found a lone kind of pure desire leader out there, you know, leading on their own, I was more than happy and my pastor was happy to invite them to our monthly meeting because we really were just discussing being Pure desire leaders. So if you're a church that has it and you know, of a person out there leading, then it'd be great if you could invite them to that leaders meeting.

Yeah, Great idea. Well, you guys, this has been really good. I wish, honestly, I had a podcast like this seven years ago and I was starting to lead groups. A lot of things in here would have been good to think about from the beginning, but as we look to wrap up this episode, what's some final encouragement, Ashley, that you want to give everyone listening today?

Hmm. I've been sitting here trying to think of if I should say, you can do it, or if I should say, say, just keep swimming, just keep swimming.

Both good.

I like both of those.

Okay. Both good. Yeah. I mean, that really would be my encouragement. I. It. It can be so scary. For me, the first two years of leading groups, every single step was scary. But I'm so glad that I did it. If you're feeling called, if you're the one who's been impacted. If you saw change in your life, if you need it, if you're a parent who feels passionate about helping, you know, other people know there's healing. I mean, whatever it is, I would just say don't be afraid to do it. It doesn't have to look like everybody else is doing it. But really just starting that conversation in your church and being a place where people can start coming to get their own healing and having a place to work through their curriculum together is the biggest thing you can do that. It really just takes a willing heart to do it.

Yeah. And, you know, it's interesting. We've talked about this A lot of the podcast is the idea of this becoming someone's ministry is a part of their healing, where they are giving back. You know, Dr. Ted calls it sweet revenge. You know, taking the one thing that the enemy distorted and tweaked in your life and then using it for the kingdom. I think that the idea of giving this ministry away to other men and women is a way to equip them for this ministry, and it's a huge piece to their healing. So my advice would just be to give this ministry away to as many people as you can.

Yes, I would piggyback on that, Trevor, that. I think my final encouragement was to say, everyone can lead. I really believe that that that part of your healing is going to be passing it on to someone else. Because when we take it from that angle of, well, how do I teach this or how do I encourage someone else? It actually increases the level of healing in our own lives. So leading isn't just about, well, my church needs it and I need to help someone. It's in a selfish kind of way. It's going to further the healing in your own life because it just allows you to own the material and process it from one more angle. And as you involve yourself in this selfless act of helping others, it's actually going to fuel you as well. Get that? Right. So maybe someone's listening and they're like, well, I'm not a leader. This one's not for me. I hope you'll really say, God, how can you use me? How can you take my life experiences, the things you put into my life, and use it to benefit someone else? Because it's going to help you in your healing as well. So don't run from that. Partner with what the Holy Spirit wants to do in your life and trust that in whatever way you lead, God will really use that for you and for those that you're leading.

Yeah, so being willing to identify, develop and invest in future group leaders is essential to growing a healthy sexual integrity ministry. There's no other way about it. Believing that you're the only one that can grow the ministry is one of the first, fastest ways you can burn out and definitely create an unhealthy ministry. So we have to give this ministry away. We have to equip other men and women to do this if we want to reach more men and women with sexual health, if we want to restore marriages, if we want healthy relationships. So, Ashley, thanks so much for hanging out with us. Appreciate it.

Yeah, thanks for having me on again.

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