069 – Legal Issues In Group

Welcome to the Pure Desire podcast, where we partner with you to bring hope and freedom on your journey to purity. Hey there. I'm your host, Trevor Windsor, and we're so thankful you're taking time out of your day to hang out with us. I'm here with my co host, as always, Nick Stumbo.

Yippee ki yay, cow patty.

I. I got really nervous because I love Die Hard, and when you started that, I'm like, oh, explicit. Explicit Tag is gonna have to get put on this episode.

Iron. Never seen Die Hard or where that is. Said I was singing a line from a 1980s song. But the origin of that phrase, I just happened to do a little bit of studying online. Thank you, Google.

Before the podcast.

Yes. Has its origins in the 1930s. So Bruce Willis was totally ripping off something that had been around much, much longer than Die Hard.

He added his flavor at the end.

Well, yeah. Doesn't he always?

So with us today is Rich Moore. Rich is the international groups coordinator for men's groups. He's an author and avid golfer, and we're glad to have him back. Rich, welcome back.

Well, thanks for having me. That was. That's a hard one to follow. Next greeting. So I've never had one. I've always said I'm just, hey, glad to be here.

Yeah.

So in honor of my bears playing, very well, I'll just say bear down. I won't go into the theme song, the team song, but go Bears.

I mean, you could do the super bowl shuffle right now. I wouldn't.

I wouldn't be upset about it.

Yeah, we'll wait till Super Bowl.

Okay.

All right, fair enough. So today we we're going to discuss legal issues in group. From time to time, there are legal issues that come up in group and obviously not fun to deal with or easy to maneuver through. And so we're really hoping today's conversation can equip any group leader or member to have the info and the tools necessary to handle these issues as best as possible.

Well, it's a really important topic, and so I hope for anyone listening that you'll really engage with it. It might be tempting to think, oh, I don't need this one. I'm not a group leader. But what we're really trying to look at is we want to make sure that when we delve into our sexual brokenness, we don't avoid or ignore something just because it's difficult, that if there are issues in someone's life, if there's something in our own life that borders into this area of illegal activity or stuff we don't want to deal with, we need to know how to deal with it and deal with it appropriately. Because if we go into any group experience where, well, there's something particularly bad, I'm going to hide and never address you, your healing is gonna be severely limited by that. So we're just gonna try to create a framework for how groups handle the tough stuff well and protect the group environment. But to keep in mind from the forefront for any individual listening, that maybe some of these issues are in their life and they've never told anyone. We really wanna encourage you at the get go here, those are the kind of things you need to take to a professional counselor or if it involves illegal activity, to go to a lawyer and get specific personal advice. Because we're not lawyers. So we wanna make that disclaimer upfront. We are not dispensing, please don't quote us in a court case or anything like that. We're just giving you best practices, things that we've learned from 20 years of doing this. We've paid the dumb tax. So we want to try to help you. But just to make some of those disclaimers up front, if you've got these issues in your life, face them, but face them with a professional. And then for groups, we really hope today's episode will help you so rich to toss it over to you. It's easy to assume when we hear a podcast on this topic that legal issues come up all the time in group. So is that true? How often would you say that legal issues do come up and need to be addressed in a group?

You know, that's a tough one. It varies. I would say probably the biggest one that comes up the most often is when there's legal proceedings in regards to divorce. So we, we, we work with that. But as far as other illegal actions, boy, it's tough to say. I've had quite a bit over 20 years. Some groups may never have them. It just really depends on how many groups, how many guys are coming through. You know, I'd say in the last couple years I've probably had six or seven. You know, and that's probably even, even just the phone calls here in the office. Probably in the last year, probably three or four.

Yeah, because, I mean, I've never had one in group. So for me, like I'm, I'm planning to learn just as much from this episode as, you know, as any listener.

Yeah, I'd say when I was a pastor full time before being on Staff with Pure Desire. We ran groups in our church for about five years in that time, and I think we had three or four times where legal issues came up. So it's not super common, but often enough you want to be aware of it. And I'd echo what you said, Rich. The most common issues that are coming up are a guy walking through divorce and just where does his participation in group put the group in jeopardy of some awkward situations. And then the other most common one is where someone was involved with a minor. And usually it's prior to them being in group. It's something from their past or, you know, they were 21, she was 16 kind of thing. And they've. They've never really known what to do about it, what should happen. And. And so that's where some of those stories kind of came up inadvertently. And it's like, oh, do you realize that you just put us in a place where we're mandatory reporters on that kind of thing? And so that's part of what we're trying to look at in this episode is how to make sure your group is aware of what are those mandatory reporting kind of issues. And then if they do have them in their life, not to avoid it, but to just make sure they address it the right way. Because what I did find in those couple of stories is the guy in the case was really living with some fear of if this comes out, what will happen? What are my rights? And rather than avoiding it, I think that's a blessing that the group can provide is really helping them face it now. Face it from a point of maturity and vulnerability versus living in this fear of I don't know if or when it'll ever come out. So that's kind of our experience in about five years at our church.

Yeah. So, Rich, in your experience, what types of legal issues arising? Group like Nick kind of mentioned a couple. But what are the ones that you see kind of more happen more often than not?

Those are the most common ones. Usually outside of divorces involving a minor, we have had some adult. Adult crimes that have come up. Those are usually the big ones in. Most recently within the last. I don't know, you know, with. With the Internet, you know, child pornography has really been on the rise. So we've had a few of those pop up.

And I think threats of harm are a common one too, whether it's to harm self. And that's as we see happening in culture now. Some of these suicides we hear about, and you just. You're kind of blown away. How could they do that? What were they thinking? What was going on in their life? We didn't see it coming. So in group, just being super attentive to when someone's starting to share and they're pretty dark. I mean, to take those things very seriously, if you start to get a sense that there's a threat, that they could be a threat to themselves, you want to be very, very proactive on that. And then threatening to harm someone else happens on occasion. I think especially if a group is doing like the Conquer series with a large group of people all at once, or it's maybe the very front end of a group that you may have someone who's very angry, is walking through separation kind of stuff with a spouse. And if they're threatening harm to someone else, that is a realistic kind of threat, you need to take that very seriously as well. So those are couple that I think have to be on your radar.

Yeah, for sure.

So this is an area for groups that maybe can feel kind of scary. It's like, wow, you know, I just want to help people. I'm not. I'm not a legal expert. I don't know what to do about these kind of issues that come up. So, Rich, what are some things that groups can do to prepare themselves for these potential legal issues happening in group? What. What steps can they take so this doesn't have to be a big, scary, frightening thing and we can focus on helping people?

Yeah. What I do is I really set the tone. That very first meeting, whether it's a Conquer series meeting or Seven Pillar, regardless of what the group meeting is, that first night, when I walk them through the steps of the Memo of Understanding, Covenant to contend and all that, I'll. I'll bring up, I'll talk about legal issues and I'll say, hey, if you have an issue that you want to talk about tonight, you know, come talk to me either before or pull me aside after group. And then if it's something you absolutely want to just get off your chest right there, you know. But I go through, you know, just like you said, Nick, about, you know, recommending an attorney, you know, talk to an attorney first. And. But if somebody. I've had guys when, after they sign that and they understand the steps, they're just like, I just, I can't wait. I have to tell somebody. And so I usually wait for them. I won't have them say anything. I said, don't say anything in the group. You know, come to me privately at the end of group and Then we'll handle it from there. And so it's different every group, you know, and then one step or you talked about threat to harm anybody yourself or anything like that. The biggest thing is, is when you have somebody in that situation, you know, you follow the protocol. So you're, if you're meeting in the church, you go to whoever that oversight is, pastoral oversight, you contact them, you. And if it's something severe, you don't let them leave the church. So, and we, we actually had this happen not too long ago where we followed these steps. You don't let them leave until we figure something out. And so that's a key piece because the last thing you want to do is if a guy is suicidal and he's talking about he has the means to do it, you don't want to let them out the door.

Yeah, well, good luck.

Right?

No, be a friend. Be someone who's courageous enough to step in. And yeah, I just echo that. Rich, the memo of understanding is your friend to upfront with a group, you know, don't let it slide by like, oh yeah, yeah, we'll get to that. Or take some time on your own to read through it. No, take the whole group and read it out loud if you need to. But the point you're really trying to underscore is this group is safe and confidential. But that confidentiality has limits because of the laws of our state and our country. And to be real clear that people know here's where our confidentiality will be limited. And then if they choose to share something, it's with the knowledge that my group might need to take some steps with me. And like I said, every situation is different. So for some people, they want that help. That's why they're bringing it up. Because like, yeah, I need help in facing this. But at other times, it doesn't need to be a part of the group experience. It needs to be something they face with a professional, that they go to a lawyer. But, but if they're aware ahead of time. Oh, okay. There are bounds on what can be shared here. It just creates a really healthy group environment because then people in the group can really focus on what the group can provide. Because the group are not experts, the group are not professionals, the group or other people going through their own stuff. And so if you do that well up front, it tends to almost become a non issue then through the group because people know the rules of the playing field, they know what to expect.

When in communicating that up front. I mean, obviously educating yourself on what the laws are in your state is really important. Right. But if you're communicating up front that here's where my confidentiality has to end. And communicating, though also as a group leader, that if you're still living with shame and with stuff you're not bringing into the light, like true freedom is not really going to happen. And so even if there are guys in your group who don't struggle with legal stuff or don't have that issue, still communicating that up front, that look, we need to be able to bring all this stuff into the light if we really want to get free. And so just a small practical thing in that sense is not just putting it in negative light, but almost putting a positive spin on it that if you do share this stuff and we do, even if it has some legal ramifications, this is steps towards healing, this is steps towards a positive outcome, you know, whatever the ramifications may be.

Yeah. And that's why I always share my story in a group because of just exactly that one fact. Because there's somebody has some legal issues, I can share my story. Yeah. There's consequences for actions, but for me personally, it was those consequences that really saved my life. And part of that process, going through group, being honest, open and honest with. With everybody involved. Yeah. The scary is. The scary part is the consequences. But I'm here today because I chose to do the right thing.

Yeah. And Rich's book could be a great one for someone to pick up if they've not heard of it. I'm sure we'll put a link to that in the show notes that you can hear a lot of that story in his book, the Silent Battle.

So based on your experience, Rich, and even your story, and we will definitely put those in the show notes. Your book too. What are some no no's when it comes to this? I think sometimes it is nice to know what are some good practices and we'll get there. But up front, what are some things like danger. Danger don't go there when getting into group. And if legal issues really are an issue, what are some no nos?

Yeah, it's. Boy, that's tough. My heart as a group leader is I want to just be there for everybody. But as Nick said, there's some limits that we can do in that process. As much as I want a guy to be open and honest about everything, depending on that legal situation, that's a private conversation where it'll be dealt with if it's a reportable offense and then kind of make that decision if we think group is the best place for him at that time, especially if he's coming in and say, hey, I'm under investigation, or I'm going. I'm in a custody battle through a divorce. You know, we would probably have them wait until everything's final. On the group side of it, I think one of the biggest things is as guys in group, when we have these pop up, it's so easy to say when you get home that you don't even really think about it. You say, oh, yeah, we just had a guy disclose. Because it's pretty heavy on everybody in the group. So the biggest. No, no, it really is to, you know, not to say anything. Obviously, the confidentiality was said in group, stays in group. And I've seen that happen a few times. And it's not out of there saying who it was. They're just saying, hey, this is what happened in group. It's just. It can be kind of a sensitive subject, especially if it gets out. And they're like, wow, you know? Yeah, just as well as anything.

Yeah. I think one of the no nos that comes to mind for me is, and I mentioned this at the beginning of the podcast, don't give legal advice. Like, don't ever say to someone, oh, that one doesn't matter. Don't worry about it. It's no big deal. You know, if. If you took that to the police, they'd never act on it anyway. You're essentially dispensing advice that if they make some decisions about could really come back to bite them and you as the leader. So if anything comes up in this area that's a gray matter, you want to refer and say, boy, have you ever talked to a lawyer about that? Because you really want to clear that up there and not with us and just assume it's going to be fine. So avoid operating above your pay grade. If we could put it that way. What we love about groups, what I've loved about groups, is that the heart of them is we're all in this together. We're wounded healers. Even our leaders are really leading out of their own recovery and stay there. Don't become the professionals or the advice givers that fix people's situations, have that humility to say, boy, that's a really tough situation. And that's way beyond what I know. Have you talked to a lawyer? Have you talked to the law enforcement about that? So send people where they need to go with those issues. So that's a big no. No.

Yeah, like, no no's for Me, don't prepare. Don't educate yourself. Don't do the memo of understanding or covenant to contend. Never cover the guidelines, you know, and really wait until the last minute to deal with legal issues. Like, you know, respond in the moment is basically the biggest. No, no. Like, make sure that you are equipped if you know that you're walking into potential, like, scary waters. Make sure that you have the safety net. Make sure that you have something that will protect you as a group leader and will also protect the group, but will also help these guys that. Or guys or gals, you know, who have potential legal issues.

Yeah. And as a leader, too, you don't want to be afraid. When a guy is in group, if you sense it, all of a sudden he just says, okay. Guy just starts sharing stuff and he says, nope, I'm gonna share. You know, don't be. Don't be afraid to step up and say, hey, you know, if you're gonna go down this. And I understand you want to share kind of like what Nick and I have been talking about. Say, you know, you might want to think about talking to an attorney before you share what you can share if it's a reportable, and kind of walk them through those steps, getting a memo of understanding. Sometimes guys, just because they want to get it off their chest.

Yep.

They are going to feel comfortable to share and group. And that's what usually happens to me, because how I start when I share my story, you're like, well, if he can share a story, then it's a safe place for me to share. And I'm. I'm willing to take whatever consequences. So you just. That's nothing like you said, Trevor, that you can't prepare for it. You just kind of have to be ready for it.

Sure. Yeah, that makes sense.

Yeah. So we're already delving into this a little bit. But on the flip side, what are some of the best practices that we would offer to people in addressing legal issues in a group?

I think the first one is letting them know or encouraging them to talk to an attorney before they disclose anything. That is the key piece. And, you know, if they have and they still want to disclose and, you know, then you walk them through that process. Now, like I said just a minute ago, if they. If they haven't talked to an attorney but they want to go, you just have to let them know that these are those steps that we're going to type we have to take.

Yeah.

And I think the best. Best thing to do in that scenario is, is to encourage Them to self report. Yeah, I usually give them, say, hey, it's 8 o' clock at night. If you can self report within the next 12 to 24 hours, connect with me after, let me know you have. If you haven't reported within 24 hours, then. Then I would have to make the report.

Yeah. So giving them that opportunity. And I agree a couple of things that I've seen. As you were saying earlier, Rich, this is an area, it's okay to be rude that as a group leader, you may need to interrupt because you can kind of tell maybe someone's heading down a path towards this. Just before you go any further, let me just remind you that you know these things, activity with minors, if you're threatening to harm someone, these kind of illegal activities, we're not safe from reporting. We would be mandatory reporters. So before you go any further, is this an issue that we might have to report? Are you aware of that? And sometimes guys like, oh, yeah, yeah, that's not what I'm talking about. Like, okay. But other times they may be grateful to go, oh, I had forgotten about that. Yeah, let me process that with someone else. And that's the second encouragement I give is in nearly every situation, an ordained clergy member is not a mandatory reporter because they have that confidentiality. It's like confessional, that you can go to an ordained pastor and spill what you need to, and then with their help, think through how do I need to respond to this and get their insight. And then the third best practice I would encourage, your church needs to have a connection to a good lawyer. It doesn't mean they have to be on retainer or something that you're officially paying. But go to your staff, or if you are a staff member, look around and say, who do we know? Or who have we heard of that we can just create a relationship with that we can make phone calls. Because just like you need to direct the individual who's sharing something towards legal help. You need to have someone as a church or the group leader that a staff member or yourself could reach out to and say, hey, this came up in group. Here's what we did. Are there any additional steps that you feel we need to take? Is there anything you'd recommend to us? Just to cover your bases as well, because you don't have the expertise. And so you might be directing them, the group member who's shared something to a professional, but you also need to check in with a professional on the church side to just say, are we handling this properly? Because you don't want to over function and force someone to share something if it's not required. If a lawyer says oh that here's the best way to handle that and you go oh thank goodness, we about made a mistake there. Or if they go, you know, in something like that, here's three more things a church really should do. You document this, talk to that person. So just make sure if that came up, you know who you'd call. And if you don't go to your staff, go to a pastor and say we need to know who we'd call. And if they don't know, just start looking around and find someone you can trust in this area.

Call Rich and we'll make sure to put his contact info on the bottom here. But something Rich, that you and I talked about too is if you have a guy or a gal who's coming into group who's in the middle of a divorce or is approaching that, have that conversation up front because there's a potential that all the group members could get subpoenaed and have to testify based on what's shared in the group. And that can just be really uncomfortable and messy and really difficult for a group. And so if you basically be aware of where guys are at in their marriages or their relationships as they're walking in, I think that can be a really helpful tip.

That, that and along, you know, with, with what Nick said about having that, you know, lawyer, attorney present or, or a part of the staff or however you think at the church. I've had many churches that I've talked with that are starting groups that don't even have a reducing the risk policy. Huge piece that they need to have. I think it's churchtaxlaw.org I think, I think that's just a huge piece that is important for churches large or small to have. And it covers a lot of stuff, legal stuff.

Yeah, Reducing the risk will give all the outlines of what do we do if someone is a registered sex offender? What do we do to make sure any children's areas are protected and safe? What do we do when legal issues come up? That that should be church wide policy. And so great point there Rich, that if you, if your church doesn't already have policy in place, just how they handle these issues in general, you need to really ask and push for that because that will help your groups as well to just have that in place. And going back to something you said, Trevor, we're kind of talking about it, but maybe just to speak directly to that common issue of someone Going through divorce, we may have people listening that are like, well, why is that a problem? I mean, if we've got sexual addiction issues or struggles with pornography, that may be causing a divorce, so that could be a common case, and someone might be wondering, why is that a problem? Well, what we've seen and experienced is that when there's a divorce going on, the things that are being discussed in group, particularly for an addict, the things that they're admitting to the group could potentially be used as leverage against them by a spouse who's angry and looking to either get possessions or children, custody kind of things. So that's something we really talk to a person up front about to say, you know, if you're still in the middle of divorce. This group is all built on honesty. And you may be honest with us in a way that's helping you, but if we get subpoenaed, we would have to share what you shared with us, and that could be used against you. So every case is different. Every divorce is different. That's where we really encourage someone in a divorce. They've got a lawyer, so that's maybe a good thing. Say, hey, go to your lawyer. Explain what you're dealing with. Explain the purpose of this group and see what they would advise you. And I think what we've experienced is most lawyers will say, yeah, don't be sharing this stuff with other people right now, because she could come against you with this, or this could happen. And just depending on the timing or what's at stake, other lawyers might say, oh, in this kind of situation, that's not going to matter. It's all pretty clear. But again, you want that information coming from your lawyer, not from a group. So that's what we're looking at with divorce cases.

Yeah. All right. So, Rich, we're going to end the episode really the same way we do. Everyone just giving some final encouragement. So if there's someone out there who is in groups or wanting to get into groups, but realizes now that maybe legal issues are a potential for that, what encouragement would you give them?

Well, really two encouraging pieces here, I think, for the guy, for the man or woman that's struggling with that issue of. In their past is not to be afraid to talk about it, because there's nothing more powerful than being set free from something that's kept you in bondage your whole life.

Yeah.

Regardless of it's a legal issue or not, it's the very. It's the same. It's the thing that's gonna be able to Break the chain and set you free. Like I said earlier, there may be some consequences. There's, you know, I've experienced those consequences, but at the time, same time, the freedom has been unbelievable, even while I've had to walk through those consequences. Yeah, there's nothing better than that. And then the other, I guess, encouragement piece or just advice is really, if, if you have questions, we know that this, this podcast is probably going to spark a lot of questions, so we're.

Just scratching the surface.

So, like, like Trevor said, you know, make sure you call Trevor and That's right. But, but give me a call and I, I've got a lot of information about different states and requirements, and I can help you kind of walk through some of those pieces.

So that's good. I'm available, as I think about it, just to kind of piggyback on that. Rich, My encouragement would be that fear and shame are more imprisoning than lawyers and consequences. So we've maybe been taught by our society to fear lawyers, fear consequences, fear judgment. But fear and shame, particularly from an eternal perspective, on a spiritual perspective, are keeping us in bondage far more than anything we have to face. And I just want to remind listeners that everyone in their story has that particular dark spot where the enemy is saying to them, if this is discovered, then blank will happen. You'll be rejected. No one will ever love you. And that fear and shame over that dark spot is what holds many, many people back, what keeps them from experiencing the freedom and recovery and joy they could be. So whatever that particular piece of your story is, just recognize that what you're feeling about it is something I really believe the enemy is putting on you and using against you and the reality that we see far, far more often. And I don't want to make any guarantees here because the legal things you might have to face could be very difficult. The challenges and consequences that could come up from honesty could be very difficult. But the perspective of finding freedom, as you said, rich from fear and shame and not having that little spot that the enemy can use against you, you can't put a price on that. You cannot underestimate. Sorry, flip that around. You really can't overestimate how beneficial that might be. So I would just encourage everyone in your story, if you've got that dark place that you haven't addressed, address it. Because the good that can come from that is just. It's hard to even explain right now.

Yeah, yeah, Just real quick, about, probably about 15, gosh, maybe almost 20 years ago, I walked with A guy, through this exact process, he ended up getting life in prison. And he's scared to death. And he says, well, I'm willing to accept the consequences. And I told him during this time, during his sentencing, kind of before that process, that, you know, he's got an opportunity to experience a freedom that he has never experienced before, even while he is in prison and he's walking free. Here we are, 2015, 20 years later, later, as he's gone through the material while in prison. Yeah. And just because you're locked up doesn't mean you can't experience freedom.

Yeah, yeah. The only quick thing I would offer is if you're a group leader, this is not on you. This is not your responsibility to fix it or to solve it. If you have a guy or gal that's in your group that struggles with this or has this a part of their past, it is not your job to fix it. It really is not. So don't put the weight that, sure, it should affect you and you should be bummed and a little and really probably sad just based on what's going on, but to not weigh that, have that weigh you down, because it's not yours. So these issues, it's just even having this conversation, it's not fun. It's not a great conversation to have. It's not easy. But, you know, through our conversation, I think it's really evident that these are important things to handle well in situations and to handle well. So for the benefit of both the potential offender and the group as a whole, even the group leader, we just pray that this conversation helps equip you, really, with the info and tools you need to handle these as best as possible. So, Rich, your experience and expertise is super helpful. Thanks, man. And thank you for listening to the Pure Desire Podcast. If you like what you're hearing and want to keep up with the podcast, please subscribe. You can also rate and review our podcast and let us know how we're doing. For more information, check out our website. You can follow us on social mediauredesirepdmi. Once again, that's earedesirepdmi. We'll see you next time. Thanks for listening to the Pure Desire Podcast. For more information, check out our website, www.puredesire.org. check in each week for new content on the podcast and we pray that it will help you find hope and freedom on your journey to purity.

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