070 – Stories Of Healing: Mike Maxwell

Welcome to the Pure Desire podcast where we partner with you to bring hope and freedom on your journey to purity. Hey there. I'm your host, Trevor Windsor. And we're so thankful you're taking time out of your day to hang out with us. I'm here with my co host, as always, Nick Stumbo.

G', day, mate. Throw another shrimp on the bob, eh?

So is that. Are we quoting Dumb and Dumber? Is that what we're doing?

You know, I guess you could put it that I was just practicing pretty much all of the Australian I know.

Mmm.

And you know, I heard they were making a new Crocodile Dundee movie, and then I found out it was just a Super bowl commercial. What a letdown that was.

I think it actually is a movie.

Google it, okay. Google it.

I'm just saying. Looked like it was legit, but that's.

Exactly why it got such traction. There is no sequel coming out.

It's really too bad.

It is.

Yeah. Anyways, today we're doing another story of healing. So these episodes are where we get to talk with people who've had first hand experience with addiction or the effects of addiction and have found hope in healing. It would be one thing if we just sat around talking each week about how all this stuff works. We want to really be able to give people opportunity who've experienced healing to share their stories, really, as an attempt to encourage and give hope to anyone else out there who might be struggling. Our guest today is Mike Maxwell. Mike is the operations director at Pure Desire and he's been leading groups for years. Has an amazing story of healing and restoration. We're excited to share Mike's story today. Mike, welcome back.

Thank you very much.

Glad to have you. This is like my third time now.

I know I'm getting to be an.

Old hacker, becoming a regular. That's right. Okay, so let's just start off. Mike, if you're ready to go.

Yep.

All right, so we're pumped to have you on the podcast. And really with these ones, we like to start with just giving a little bit of background, a little bit of your story, your upbringing. So why don't you tell our listeners about that?

Yeah. I grew up in a fairly rigid Christian home, which I think is pretty typical of guys that struggle. The church we're a part of was really heavy on the rules and the proper standing with the church that was kind of important to them. Looking back, I would say the message I took away was that right. Standing with God was through the denomination. I don't think that was explicitly Communicated, but I think that's what I took away. My parents sent me to private schools through the denomination my whole life, through my second year in college. So it was a big part of my life that. That denomination that we're a part of. I now know that both my parents were addicts. My dad grew up in Tennessee on a tobacco farm. Very poor, large family. His father had not wanted him and basically would tell him he was worthless. So as soon as he was 18, he left home and. And became a very angry workaholic. My mom was also raised in a big family. They were very poor. I think there was eight of them. And they lived for many years in a tent. And both my grandparents worked jobs to try and provide for them. I remember my mom being very embarrassed about their poverty and having to wear hand me downs, not being able to wear makeup because her family grew up as part of the denomination that we adopted. As I was a child when they met, my mom, I think, saw my dad as a hard working man that could take her away from poverty and provide some stability. And they became engaged very quickly. I think it was only a couple weeks after they met. Within a year, the marriage was not doing well. And my mom got pregnant with me behind my father's back. So she was looking for someone to love her. And my dad was emotionally absent. So that was kind of the setup for my childhood. My father could be quite harsh. And I remember constantly feeling worthless, unwanted, not able to measure up to his standards. I'm not sure to this day what those standards were. Just because he was so angry. And I'm not sure he knew what they were either. I realize now he was dealing with his own pain. And even as I say this, you know, both my parents are not the same people they were growing up. They actually became really great Christian people. But their hurts are what programmed me. I remember running to my mom whenever dad was harsh with me. And she was very nurturing. And we had kind of an emotional commerce relationship. I don't know if that makes sense, but it was. It was kind of like if I got on her good side, she would make me feel loved and affirmed. And she kind of tried to make up for what dad was lacking. And in many ways I think she was codependent with his addiction, workaholism, and she would try and make up for that. So that cocktail kind of programmed me going forward. And I think I mentioned this in a previous episode, but the big show during my formative years was Happy Days. And the cool guy on the show the message was, if you get the girls, you're the cool guy. So I blended that emotional commerce relationship with my mom and the harshness of my dad with this get the girl mentality. And that kind of set me up. And in looking back through the work that I've done with pillars and counseling and that kind of thing, I recognize now that that was beginning to show in first grade. I remember taking one of the girls out behind the boiler and giving her a flower and going, now you have to kiss me. And so that really was probably the start of.

So you were a charmer for sure.

Well, I thought I was, but it was really. It was really just trying to fill that emotional vacuum in my life. Now I realize that's a symptom of my wound. I needed validation from women to make me feel good about myself. So fast forward to college. No longer under the oversight of my parents, I started to party at every opportunity. And, of course, the relationships became shorter and more transitory. This continued for about 10 years, until I had an amazing experience with God. I think he really touched my life in such a tangible way that I couldn't deny that he was real. So I ended up marrying the girl I was dating at the time to get right with God, because I was sleeping with her. And within a year, I was on staff at a church here in town. A big, big church. Within a year, the marriage was showing signs of dissolution. Not dissolution. That's not the right word. Signs of fracture. And of course, that was measured on my part by our sex life, because that was how I measured my emotional affirmation. I love Jesus with all my heart. However, I still had all those wounds beneath the surface, and I never addressed those. And I think what a lot of Christians feel is once you get saved, all that stuff goes away, and it doesn't.

That would be nice.

Yeah. So within a few years on staff, 1995, the Internet, all the computers had browsers in them, and I quickly discovered Internet porn and kind of transferred that need for affirmation onto that porn, thinking that, you know, this was a way I could kind of meet that need, feel better about myself, take the pressure off my wife and just kind of make it through with all the pain I was feeling that I didn't understand. That continued. Wow. For. Oh, man. I don't know how many years I was on staff there. Seven years. We quit to pursue some other projects. And within a year, the marriage went through a divorce. It failed. And so my thinking at the time was, I still love Jesus, but my Spiritual life was in disarray. I wasn't feeling close to God. I really believed that I had married the wrong woman, and that was the problem. So within a few more, I would say, a few years after that, I married my second wife. And at that point, I was digging into God in a different way. But the porn was still a problem. I came to this place where I began to realize that the pornography was beginning to control me and that I needed to. I needed to get rid of it, because it was. I was recognized. It was affecting my relationship with God. It had been all along, but I think it was just God putting pressure on me to a point of going, this is something that you have to get rid of. It's becoming an idol in your life. So I met with a couple friends and decided to kind of confess that I was struggling like most of us do, and said, I need you to hold me accountable. Well, I found out very quickly that both of them were struggling too. And it turned into a. Hey, I stumbled this week. Yeah, me too. Pat you on the back, send you out the door. And I realized very quickly this was not gonna work. It was just. We were just kind of going through the motions. There was gonna be no healing there. I still didn't understand that the wounds were down inside me. I still thought it was a behavioral problem. And so that. That led to about within a year, my wife and daughter were on the computer and discovered some pornography that popped up. And she immediately kicked me out of the house. And it was. I was never let back in the home. So I was really pursuing healing at that point, trying to save my marriage, and it just didn't happen. So I ended up realizing that I had to pursue this journey as a single man. Yeah.

Well, Mike, I really appreciate the way you share your story and maybe start at a point that for many people, they wouldn't think of going back that far. You know, into your parents childhood. But just really instructive for people to think through that the way their parents raised them was really about the way their parents were raised. What did they grow up and what kind of environment. And the more we can look into our family's story and see kind of what values were passed on, what kind of a culture. It really helps us understand what made our parents the way they are and how they raised us. And it just becomes really critical to understanding some of the deeper parts of our story of what drives us and what are we looking for, and what kind of role does pornography or other sorts of sexual behavior play in Kind of meeting some of those much deeper needs. And so I hope for listeners that's something that they're encouraged to do, is kind of go back and look what was the environment my parents grew up in. And that can help them understand their own story a little bit better. So you were talking a little bit, Mike, just about discovering the Internet in 95. And probably like most men and women who stumble into that, there's a season of our life where we're battling it on our own. It's secretive. We feel like I got to figure out how to get this out of my life. But go back to that moment you were mentioning in your story. What kind of brought you into that awareness of this isn't something I can beat on my own. It's not something I can just try to quit and be done with. I'm going to need to take some additional steps. What brought you to that awareness and what was that season of your life like?

Well, I had, honestly, I think that the real turning point is I had gotten a seven volume anthology by Andrew Murray on prayer. And as I was going through there, there was a section on what he calls the sin of prayerlessness. And he said, if you know that God wants you to pray, then that you know that that's a prayer he will answer. He'll give you that desire if you pray. God help me to have a desire to pray. He'll give you that desire. And I began to realize that with pornography, if it's something that God doesn't want us to be involved in, it's sexual sin in general. I began to realize that I needed to pray for the desire to not want this stuff. And I remember beginning to pray this prayer, God, would you break my heart with my sin? And I began to think of it as, you know, he calls us the church, his bride. And I don't think there's many pains greater than when you have the betrayal of a spouse. And I started to think about how he must feel when I was choosing this idol of pornography over him. Because I realized when I was doing that, I would basically say, God, I need you to step aside for a little while while I worship this thing over here. And even the language in my head was worship. It was like, wow, that is awesome. You are beautiful. If I had you, my life would be great. And I began to make that connection. But yet my desire was still for that thing, even though I made all these vows to stay away from it and that kind of thing. And that prayer, God, just break my heart with My sin. And I remember that was about April 2011, and I started having a period of good sobriety from about April to July. And I made the mistake of one time as I was praying. I said, devil, you've lost me.

This is fixed.

I said, I've got this taken care of. And I think I got this taken care of was the operative word. And it wasn't. But within a week later, I stumbled again, and I. It broke my heart. I was on the floor sobbing, going, God, I am so sorry for what I've done to you. And I think that was. That was the turning point. And it was. It was November that year, a couple years, a couple months later that my wife and daughter found the pornography. And so one of the things I've come to is if the devil can't get to you, he will get to your face.

Family.

So we have to cover them and pray over them and extend the authority of God over our families.

Yeah, I really appreciate you sharing that, Mike. And just how powerful to really highlight two things. One, that there is a part of us that desires the thing we're doing, that whether it's pornography or affairs or just lust, that it's meeting a need, and not because we're evil, but because we're broken people. That. That creates a feeling in us that satisfies that need, even if it's for just a temporary moment. But that's one thing I think we have to come to grips with, is there is a part of me that wants this. But the other thing, your prayer to say, God, give me a desire to change, because maybe for some people, that's where they're stuck, is they can feel the desire for their sin. And they know they want to change, maybe because of the problem it's creating, or they know that God says it's wrong, but they aren't really feeling that desire for holiness or that desire for freedom. And I really echo your words there, that I believe that's a prayer God will answer in a. You know, in a hundred different ways. But as we say, lord, help me to see the reality of what I'm doing. Help me desire a life that is free of this. That God can really do a great work there. So thanks for sharing that.

You know, so many times I've come to realize that, and I think we all know this on some level, but we don't really make it tangible. Is that the spiritual things that are or will be evident in our life are given by God. We can't manufacture them. So many times, guys will come into a group and they're like, I'm just jumping through all the hoops. I'm reading my thing, I'm doing my devotionals, but I'm just getting nothing out of it. And the reality is it, you know, the Bible says it's impossible to discern spiritual things unless. Unless God enlightens that in your life. And so I don't think I realized it at the time exactly what I was praying. But it was that Andrew Murray devotional that really got me thinking along those lines, going, God, I need you to change my heart, because this is more than just my behavior.

So when you got to that place, what were some things that you tried? Because I think that we all have this, like, oh, I can totally accomplish this. This mountain I'm about to climb. I don't need a backpack. I don't need to make sure I have supplies. I'm just going to run full sprint up the mountain and conquer it. I think that we tend to be that way when we see an issue in our life originally, especially as men. It's very easy to do that. So what were some things that you tried that really didn't stick?

Yeah, well, you know, initially, being an independent American male, you try and do it on your own. So it's like, I'm just going to try harder. I'm going to have more willpower. And that didn't work. I remember, I mean, further on down the road, it was like, okay, if this is an area of temptation for me, like being home alone, I would try not to go home. I'd go to the gym twice a day to keep from going home or whatever it was. But, you know, or I'd start vacuuming the house to stay away from the laptop, and you just end up circling it and end up there. It was almost like it was inevitable and you knew it. So then, you know, you make the next concession, which is, okay, I have to tell somebody, because the Bible talks about confession. So I confessed to those two friends, and they weren't able to help me because they hadn't had victory either. You know, one of the things we stress in Pillars and through the Conquer series is that you have to have somebody ahead of you who's. They don't have to be way ahead of you, but they have to be ahead of you in this journey, pulling you along. And I always have the visual. I don't know if you remember, was it. Was it Soul Survivor? What was the movie with Marky Mark?

Lone Survivor.

Lone Survivor, yeah.

His name's Mark Wahlberg.

He's a decent actor now, so in.

The 80s, he was. Yeah, he was a rapper, so that's how I remember him. But there's that one scene in the movie where the one guy can't walk. He's been fired up. And so he's got him by the back of his harness and he's dragging him through the forest. And as he's dragging him, the guy's shooting at the enemy. And, you know, I realize now you've got to have somebody that's stronger than you that can pull you down this.

Path and help you while you're still fighting.

Even while you're still fighting, but you can't do it on your own. And it was just such a powerful picture. And I just always remember that one of the other things I did is I read Everyman's Battle. That was one of the first books I read. And I think it's in that book where he talks about the rubber band and snapping. And I started doing that. I'd be at the gym wearing a rubber band, snapping myself. And I started thinking about this. I'm like, going, if every time I think about sex, I give myself pain, I don't know if this is going to be a healthy association. So I was like, I got to find another way to do this. But, you know, all those things. But it wasn't until my wife and daughter discovered the porn on the computer that I became absolutely desperate and violent in determining to fight this.

Yeah.

So as that journey or trajectory changed for you, Mike, from being something that you were just trying to fight on your own and do better, you know, and you look at getting the kind of help that would lead to freedom. What were some of the hurdles that you had to face as you really began to pursue healing and freedom in a real, authentic way?

Oh, absolutely. Pride, number one. My pride. I can do this by myself. I. You know, underpinning that was this lie that I believed that if I was a real man, I could do this. And not being able to do it on my own basically told me I wasn't a man. It's a lie. But that had ingrained in me at some level. And at the time, I don't think I realized that's what was the underpinning lie that held me in my pride so long. But looking back, that absolutely was one of the. It was the biggest hurdle. And I thank God. You know, God has this way of, if you can't humble yourself, he will find a way to help you.

He's pretty good at it.

He's very good at it. And as painful as that is, it really is a blessing. You know, I would say the second most painful hurdle was when I realized that the consequences of my sin included the loss of my second marriage and realizing that I had hurt my wife and stepdaughter irreparably in their minds, and that I was going to have to walk this journey as a single man. That was a brutal devastation for me. And in hindsight, what it did is it made me go. I mean, I felt alone, because at that point, I did have some men around me. You know, I was in groups. I got in groups as quick as I could. I had some men around me, but that still was, you know, that right there, that emotional affirmation that I craved so bad. And recognizing that I couldn't get it from porn, I felt like everything had been stripped away from me, and the only place I could go was God. And I think that's what he was looking for. And as painful as that was, I look back now and think of it as one of the most beautiful places in my life that I would not trade for anything. But I would say those two. The pride is the. Is the hardest one. I think that's in America especially, maybe all over the world. I don't know. But that was, for me, God had to break my pride.

Yeah, well, I think that's the traditional Christian approach of that. If I'm a real man of God and a mighty warrior, and, you know, some of those images we use, we feel like if I'm at my computer alone at night and I'm tempted, a real man of God says no. If. And you actually know a real man of God is wise enough to see that that's a losing battle. Now, that's not an excuse or making it okay. But to recognize once you're that far along, your brain and your body chemistry is literally working against you to lead you to a place that it was designed to go. Just now, it's outside of God's plan. So that was a huge shift for me as well, to see that's really not what manliness is about. Manliness is knowing where can I win the battle and linking arms with others that show me where that is. So, yeah, I think you really expressed something that so many men and women deal with is it doesn't make you strong to do this alone.

No.

So what point did it all click? Like, at what point? What were some things that happened? You know, you're talking a little bit about, you know, when your wife and daughter saw the pornography. That was one of the things that's like, okay, major problem. Here's some things that I gotta do. But when did it really all come together and the picture became clear of how to start getting out of this stuff and. And that you really needed help.

Yeah, that moment where she caught me, I still thought I could talk my way out of this. But as time went on and she wouldn't let me back in the house and she didn't want to go to counseling, I could see that her mind was set. And, you know, I've discovered that pain is a great eye opener. It really helps you see clearly. And I began to go, I am in trouble here. And so that was the first moment of clarity where I went, I have to proverbially, you know, what am I trying to say? I have to cut off my hand or poke out my eye. I have to get drastic to do whatever it takes. And I remember reading my Bible, and they were talking about going into the land, and Joshua was leading them, and he said, you have to wipe out everything that's going to defile you as you go in this land. And I began to go in my mind, I began to get this war imagery over this and go, this is war. And it really is. And so that is a foundation for my whole philosophy with this. But I think the second. The point where I realized that it clicked was I was in group, and there was this young kid, and I can't remember even what he said. He wasn't in group. We weren't in group together real long, but he said something, and a light bulb just went off like a big aha. And I realized that the reason. What I really wanted, you know, this intimacy is to be known and loved. And I recognized that as long as I have harbored or hidden sin in my life, you can shower me with love, but I will never receive it. Because your love is uninformed.

Yeah, you don't know what you want.

And I didn't know what I was doing. But on some level, we all do this. We go, if they really knew who I was, they couldn't love me or express love towards me in the way they are. And it was at that moment that I realized, in group with other men, because my major wound was with my father in a group with other men, I had shared my deepest secrets, and they still accepted and loved me. And that was a huge turning point for me, having victory over use of sexual sin as a way of affirming who I was, that was a big aha. I remember that moment as a big shift of going, I'm starting to get this. Yeah, that's cool. And the other one, I think was the hurdle of realizing that just because I'm not looking at porn, I can't masturbate. That was, you know, I think all the guys that come in, try and do that, they're like, well, I'm not looking at porn, or I'm just thinking about my wife. But I realized we're drug addicts and we're self administering a drug. And if I want to walk clean and holy before God in my thought and pure in my thought life, I can't keep administering a drug. I've got to let that go. And so that was a big turning point as well.

So, Mike, as you look back at your journey and, you know, you began to enter into a season of healing, what would you say are some of the key strategies that created healing and helped you maintain sobriety in your journey?

You know, with that foundational war imagery and the intensity that I had of. I was trying to save my marriage. I threw everything I could at it. I got in counseling, I got in a group. I was reading books, I was listening to podcasts. In fact, I think I may have listened to everything John Piper has on temptation, sexual sin, anything. And I would take notes while I was reading it. I got really serious about my devotional time and my prayer life and devotional time just exploded with vibrancy and life in a way I never experienced before. Even when I was on staff at a church and had that amazing experience with God, it was like everything was stripped away and I was hanging on every word he said. It was like every time I read the Bible, I was like, oh, my gosh, I got to write this down. This is the most amazing thing. He's talking right to me. And. And the other thing was I started memorizing scripture. I'd never done that because I couldn't. You know, addicts don't have a great attention span. And, you know, I started when I'd see a verse, I'd go, God speaking to me. I would put it in this little app that I use on my phone and start memorizing it. And so many of them were initially about my identity as God's son and how much he loves me and how he wants to lead my life and that his ways are the best ways. And I'm going, okay, I've experienced all the wrong things. I believe this. I trust it. And my ident began to shift from what men thought of me or what women, the affirmation they gave me. And I began to get this attitude of I have to live for an audience of one, I have to do what's right with God. And if I do that, he promises to take care of all the other consequences and he's going to make a way for me. It's all going to turn out good if I do that. And so, you know, as I was exposed before my church family and my in laws and my parents, as the time went on, I just began to go, okay, God, I'm not going to try and manage this. I'm just going to let it go and trust you that you can use what's going on in my life for good and turn it around. And he has, I mean, my life is amazing now, but during that time I couldn't see any of that. And you know, just walking through that and going, I remember my mentor going, God is going to give you an opportunity to answer the question, do you trust me? Every single day. And how you answer that question determines how you're going to walk this walk. And I began to look for those questions of those opportunities where God is saying, do you trust me? And I remember climbing to bed every night going, thank you God for getting me through one more day clean and pure. Help me to get through tomorrow. And you know, just living one day at a time going, I don't have to try and control the future. I don't have to control what my wife is thinking. I have to control what the people at church are thinking. I just need to please you. And if I do that, you're, you're going to take care of me.

You know, that's so good, Mike. And as you share your story, it just reminds me of my own journey where that, that initial kind of step into the healing journey, there's an intensity to it because of the pain that you're working through. And I certainly don't miss the pain, but there are ways I look back and I that intensity, because you're so bought in to just say, I'm going to do whatever it takes. And that place of surrender and yeah, hard stuff of being exposed and hard conversations. But you know, I look back at that year or two in my life and say, man, there were some of the most significant times of growth and with the Lord and you kind of miss that because with the pain gone, there's not just that natural intensity. But I think the point you made is so crucial Just to really encourage everyone listening, that idea of being all in and of surrender to say, I'm not going to try to manage this anymore. I'm not going to do it my own way. I'm not going to hold out on some parts that I don't think I need to do. And I've just seen that replicated in groups over and over where a guy comes to that point of saying, I'm all in. I'm going to trust the process. I'm sick and tired of doing it my way, and I'm just going for it. The change in their lives versus those that are a little wary and like, well, you know, we'll see. And I don't think I really struggle that bad. And you just watch the trajectory, that the one who's all in, the growth, the change, and the one who's kind of half in typically doesn't finish the group, or there's not much change, and they're still going through a lot of the same things.

Can I mention one thing? It's really interesting that you mentioned that intensity, because I was thinking about that this week and I actually started praying, God, I want that intensity back without the pain. I want to have that intensity with you and that desire that I had, but I don't want the pain. And how do I get that? Because my relationship with God is good. But once you've experienced that place where he's so real, even though I didn't realize that at the time, in looking back, I was going, he was so close to me. I really want to. I want to live in that every single day.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So really, in your experience and in your journey, what are some things that you found were key elements to actually finding freedom? Because I think that we maybe get some tips and some tactics and maybe, you know, read a great book. That's helpful. But what are those key things that people need from your experience to find real freedom in this area?

Absolutely. Humility, opposite of pride. Right. You got to break that pride. You got to have humility. And humility is a difficult thing. You also have to admit that you can't do this alone. You know, I was fighting, but I didn't really get any traction until I got in a group and counseling. For me, it was counseling. I really was like, I gotta attack this with everything I got. I don't care what it costs. I just got to do this. And having a mentor that had walked ahead of me and could identify with everything that I was going through and would share the things that he had experienced. And, you know, one of the things my mentor would always say is, you got to plan for the battle. When you're doing good, you don't. You don't think about the battle. When it hits you, you got a plan ahead of time. And I remember this sermon by Alistair Begg where he's talking about, great accent, by the way. He does have a great accent. I wish I could talk like that. He talked about in his sermon on purity, about pilots and how they train. They train in a simulator so that when they're in the air, it becomes second nature to respond when adversity strikes or when a problem pops up. The analogy he used is, he goes, you don't come up with a strategy at 11:30 at night, after six pack in the back seat of a car. It doesn't work, you know, so, you know, I would actually start going, okay, I got to fortify my defenses and ask for help. And, you know, getting on a groupme text and calling out for prayer when I was tempted, guys, I'm really tempted right now. I need, you know, just continued humility of saying, I need your guys's prayer. I need your help. I need your encouragement. And the beauty of that is, as you grow in that walk, you get to be the encouragement for others, which is so amazing. The other thing I would say that is necessary, that is so hard, is you have to have courage. Because I think a lot of guys, I would say most guys go into this because they got busted, and so they have to face the consequences whether they want to or not. But there are guys out there who are struggling with this that need to face this, and they should make this. Don't wait until you get busted. It's going to take courage. Because the reality, there's lots of unknown. How will my wife respond? What will my family think? Will she leave me? Will she take the kids? And I think that's where the courage comes from. Your relationship with God and going, God, do I trust you with the consequences? If I get right. I had a guy come in my group who had been a pastor and he'd been struggling with pornography. And he just. He got to a place where he was so broken, he didn't want it in his life anymore that he went to his elders and confessed and they fired him. And he came into group and he was bawling. Here he is in his 50s, he's lost his lifelong career. And I said to him, I said, man, I would much rather have a pastor who's willing to lose everything to get right with Jesus than a pastor who won't get right to save his job fakes it.

Right. Because that's what it is.

Yeah. And so, you know, I just was convicted in my heart that God is not through with him yet. In fact, God can probably use him in a much greater way now that he's right with him. So there's going to be courage because we don't know the consequences. We can't predict how our families are going to act, react, and it's just that courage and trust in God to go, God, okay, I will do whatever it takes to be right with you and trust you with the consequences. Yeah.

Well, Mike, that leads right into our next topic. That for some people, their sin or their behavior becomes public and exposed, and they're kind of forced to tell their story to others. But for a lot of people, the idea of sharing about their sexual brokenness is like, nope, not going to have it. Even in healing, they're like, I want to get better and move on, and I don't need to tell people. So where did you find the courage to make your story known and to be willing to share it with others? And what might you say to someone who has that mindset of, I just want to get better for me and no one else needs to know what I'm doing?

Well, you know, part of the healing is being able to tell your story. In fact, when a new guy comes in the group, I ask everyone to share their story first and then ask him to share his where he's at. Because part of the healing comes from acknowledging and putting words to our pain and the process. You know, where did I get the courage? I mean, you learn in group, tell your story. But I remember being in the pit and having everything stripped away. I had met God in a powerful way in 1993, and I was within a very short period of time on staff at a church. I knew there was a call in my life to do something for God. And when I was at that place where everything had been stripped away and I felt like I had lost everything, I remember just going, God, don't be done with me. Are you done with me? Don't be done with me. If you can use me, I'll be a fool for you. I'll tell my story. I'll share it. He's been faithful with that. When the opportunity came up for this podcast, I was super excited, but also nervous because there's a lot of people out there that don't know my story that are now going to hear it. And so this really isn't a story about what Mike has done. It is a story about what God has done with a two time divorced porn addict that God had a plan for and he has a plan for everybody. You don't have to be on church staff or anything. Every man has a destiny, a spiritual destiny. So that's where the courage comes from. Because it's the way. I've also found that when you talk to guys, if you will share your faults and what God has done in your life, they immediately trust you. It reminds me of when Paul talks about, in my weakness, I'm strong. It's when I expose my weaknesses and what God has done in my life. Then guys open up and begin to tell their story, which is where the healing can start. Because acknowledging that they have a problem is the first step in going, what do I do about it?

Right. Well, it diminishes the shame too. When you know that that's someone I can go talk to who knows what I'm going through or knows has experienced what I'm going through. They're gonna understand.

So that's not gonna say, just no.

That person becomes a safe person for me where now I can approach them and say, look, this is what's going on in my life. And I know that they're not gonna be like, you know, the normal response that we tend to get.

So good.

Okay, so let's look a little bit now about how some life change really has taken shape in your life, your relationships. So whether it's marriage, parenting, relationships with other men and women in your community, really, how have your relationships changed since you found freedom, since you found that healing?

Oh my gosh, it is night and day. First of all, there's open intimacy with God. You know, I have nothing to hide. There's no shame when I come before him in prayer. I mean, before, you know, when you would stumble or sin or embrace it, you're like, man, I should pray, but I probably need to kind of stay away for a couple days. And you just don't feel like, you know, I'm hiding behind my own fig leaf all the time. But I don't have that anymore. And I just revel in. I just relish the thought that of knowing that God loves me and that there's nothing between us. And as I go through the day, I can just talk to him and know that he's right here. He's promised to hold me by the hand and guide me through the day. And that is precious. The other Thing that is amazing is intimacy with men. You know, because of my father wound, I saw men as dangerous and to be competed with, you know, in sports, those kinds of things. Now, I mean, when you go into a group, as you begin to trust those guys, you share everything, they share everything. You begin to love those guys because you know that they are transparent and real. And so my male relationships are much different. I wouldn't say that everybody's that way. You know, you have to have some boundaries. But I would say the most amazing transformation is in my relationship with my wife. You know, I, as a single man, I remember thinking, okay, God, I may never get the opportunity to marry again. I'm a Christian guy who's a two time divorcee and an ex porn addict. What Christian woman is ever gonna take a chance on a guy?

It's not a great resume when. Right, totally.

Yeah. And when I met Heidi, you know, I knew I had, I couldn't go in, not exposing everything. And it was one of those things where I go, it comes back to, do you trust me? And so I said, okay, God, I'm not hiding anything. I am sharing every dirty detail of my life. And so I did. And of course she was scared and she had to go away and pray for a little while. And I had some competition as we were going through that. But you know what? She came back. And in a miraculous way, this story is awesome, but she came back and she chose me. And that is so amazing to know that this place that I sought for affirmation my whole life, but I felt like I had to hide who I was, that God gave me a woman where I could completely expose everything about myself and she still chose me.

It's powerful.

That's probably one of the highlights of my life. And with that, our relationship is nothing like my past relationships. Because there's nothing hidden, you know, pornography or sexual sin of any kind affects your relationship with your wife. How you look at her, how you interact. And I don't have that now. She is beautiful in every way and I look forward to growing old and wrinkly with her.

Yeah, more old and wrinkly. I mean, you're up there, right? I mean, we did talk about, you.

Know, all the Fonzie.

That's right.

Happy days.

Just want to remind listeners who we're talking about.

But whoever's listening, I'm super young at heart.

That's right.

Yes.

We will affirm that.

I love the, the phrase you used, Mike. I was hiding behind my own fig leaf. That, that imagery of the, the foolish things we do to think we can hide from God and yet when we can live in openness with Him. What a difference that makes.

Absolutely.

We're just so grateful for you sharing your story, putting this out there as we move towards wrapping up this episode. Mike, we'd just love to have you give that final encouragement. So what's a word you would want to leave our listeners with as they're going through this battle in their lives?

You know, I think when you approach this, you have to approach it like it's war. It is war. It's war for your family, your marriage, your future marriage if you're single. It's war for your children or your future children if you don't have children. It's war for your very soul and your relationship with God and the souls of the lives that you're meant to touch in the calling that you have on your life. You know, when the Israelites came up to the edge of the land, God said, I've given it to you, but you have to take it. It's part of, you know, our participation in what God's doing is part of his plan and growing us up. And when the Israelites 40 years previously had come to the edge, they refused to fight and they had to go back and live the desert Life for another 40 years. And we don't want to do that. The devil has taken enough from us. And I'm hoping that whoever's listening is that's resonating with you, that you gotta get serious. This is all out war. I was just reading this morning, in Jeremiah wrote down this verse, Jeremiah 17:4, the wonderful possession I have reserved for you will slip through your hands. I will tell your enemies to take you as captives. And that's what happens if you don't. There's no neutral ground in this battle. You are either a slave of Christ or a slave of sin. And so if you're not willing to fight, you're going to be a slave of sin. So you have to fight. And the other thing is, I am so impressed that every single man, whether you realize or not, has a spiritual destiny. And the enemy knows this. And he will do whatever he can to abort that call on your life. And if you don't know what that call is, you've got it in front of you. And God will help you figure that out. And being in a group with other men will help you. We are all called to something. We're all called to touch other people with the love of God. In however God presents that to you. So I would just encourage the guys that are listening to get serious about this. If you're not in a group, get in a group, do the work. There is so much at stake. The devil will take everything from you if he has the opportunity. So it's worth the battle. You know, like I said before, it was the most challenging time of my life, but I would not trade it for anything because what God has given me on the other side is so much more than I ever anticipated. And it's so amazing and so filled with joy and I get to work with you guys in this ministry and it is just amazing.

Yeah. Well, obviously hope and healing is very possible. We've heard it through Mike's story. It's not going to be easy, not going to be fun. But just like you're saying, Mike, no one will ever regret the effort they put into it. So if you want to begin your healing journey, Visit our website, PureDesire.org and reach out. And also, Mike, you wrote a book. Where can people get that?

Yeah. When I was going through this, I wrote down what God was teaching me. It's not my story, it's what I felt like God was speaking to me. And if it can be an encouragement to anybody, if they will email me@mikemuredesire.org up until the end of the year, I will send them a free copy of the book.

Fantastic. We'll put that in the show notes. And that's the Purity driven life. And we'll put that in the show notes. So whether you want to get Mike's book, whether you want to join a group, begin the counseling process, don't wait any longer to find healing and freedom. It's possible. Mike, thanks so much for being willing to share your story. Be open, honest, your own in it. Thanks for just being an example for people. Appreciate it.

Thank you guys.

And thank you for listening to the Pure Desire podcast. If you like what you're hearing and want to keep up with the podcast, please subscribe. You can also rate and review our podcast and let us know how we're doing. For more information, check out our website, PureDesire.org and you can follow us on social media. Earedesire PDMI. Once again, that's EaredesirePDMI. We'll see you next time. Thanks for listening to the Pure Desire Podcast. For more information, check out our website, www.puredesire.org. check in each week for new content on the podcast and we pray that it will help you find hope and freedom on your journey to purchase.