071 – Preaching & Purity

Welcome to the Pure Desire podcast where we partner with you to bring hope and freedom on your journey to purity. Hey there. I'm your host, Trevor Windsor, and we're so thankful you're taking time out of your day to hang out with us. I'm here with my co host, as always, Nick Stumbo.

Bing. This has been a test of the presidential podcast alert system. This is only a test.

I'm gonna need you to explain yourself.

You know, I was just thinking about the text alert that we got from the president or, you know, it said presidential, and I thought maybe we should have one of those for the podcast because they used to come on your TV and then the radio, and now on our cell phone, we get, you know, tests of the alert system. So why not on the podcast?

So if any listener is a conspiracy theorist, this is exactly the intro they've been waiting for.

Maybe. And don't you think I kind of have a voice for that? Like, I feel like they should use me in some of those governmental things. I could be the test voice. Yeah. This is only a test.

So the fact, like, we're just hoping that government or governmental is not a trigger word for somebody, so we're just gonna move forward.

It's a good idea.

Joining us today is our advancement specialist, Rodney Wright. Thanks for being here, Rod.

Thank you.

No fancy intro? No. No nothing.

Sometimes less is more.

Oh, okay, fair enough.

What are you saying, Rodney?

So today's episode is going to be focused on preaching purity in your church, in your group, in your community. So as pastors or leaders of the church, it's easy to think that as long as we cover some sort of relationship, sex, marriage series, it's enough for our congregations. And as pastors, all three of us have experienced this in a preaching ministry. So we want to spend our time today talking about the why and the how of preaching sexual integrity.

Well, it's definitely a topic that's important for people who aren't pastors because, you know, change comes in a church as culture changes. And as hard as, you know, leaders might try to create or introduce change, if a congregation isn't on board, it's not going to go very far. And so if you're listening and you say, well, I'm just, you know, quote unquote, just a member of my church or I just attend, your ability to influence change is much greater than you think. And so I hope, as you listen and get a sense for how, how can the church address sexual purity in ways that are effective and appropriate, that you can be a part of that change. Because, let's be honest, this is something we don't talk about very well in the church. There's always exceptions, but by and large, the church is missing the mark here. And so we all love the church and we want to encourage it, but this podcast is as much for the person in the pew or the, you know, the nice padded chairs as the case might be now as it is for the pastors.

Yeah. So, Rodney, let's just start with this. Why does preaching about sex, sexual integrity, sexual brokenness, why does this create tension for pastors and leaders in the church?

Well, I think one of the obvious reasons is because it's an unresolved issue for many leaders in the. In the church, whether that is a current issue of something they struggle with or a past issue that is unresolved, some kind of a negative sexual history that they've never really made amends for, done the work to get through, or. Or they haven't seen it modeled very well. And so they just are operating out of an uneducated or a lack of information of knowing how to attack this subject and actually maybe a good, positive, healthy way to start. So I think it's not just one answer. It could be just. It's something they want to avoid. They don't know how to approach it, or they just don't have a real healthy understanding in some ways about what is good and healthy about our human sexuality at a core belief. So even talking about already takes a negative tone when I think it should first start with a very positive tone. Our sexuality is because we're made in the image of God, male and female. And that is really a good news. I think having that core belief and that core understanding and seeing human sexuality as good and healthy and wonderful, if you don't have that, then unfortunately, shame is just. It's already there as we begin to talk about the subject.

Well, I think sometimes we fear the feedback, yet we fear that people are going to be offended or are going to come up and say, you know, that's not appropriate to talk about, or how dare you bring that up with kids in the room? Or that fear of feedback can make us overly cautious about a topic we need to address. You know, routinely at our events, we'll ask people, how many of you grew up in a home where sex was talked about openly in a healthy manner? And by and large, it'll be two or three hands in a room. You know, 2 or 3% is the average. So I think about in a congregation that's the challenge. It's not that we shouldn't talk about it, it's just that we don't know how to. And that can extend to pastors that if we grew up in an environment where sex was never talked about openly in a positive way, we might simply feel inadequate. Like, I don't really know how to talk about this because no one modeled it for me, no one showed me. And so we have to get over some of those hurdles where we're not really speaking that language in our homes or in our relationships. And so how do we take it into the pulpit? That can be a big gap to.

Jump over sometimes even with the feedback. If we've gotten negative feedback already, now I want to avoid it. I mean, as someone who had a preaching ministry, I'm exhausted after I'm done preaching and I usually am pretty vulnerable. I've felt that way. You're pouring yourself out. So when someone right after a message comes up and says, I don't appreciate what was said, you did something wrong, it is easy to knee jerk reaction and just be like, well, never speaking on sex again from the pulpit. So I think that even in that battling, because we want, here's the thing, as pastors, we're shepherding these people. We want them to like what we're doing, we want them to love our leadership, we want them to follow us. And when they don't and they don't respond well, it's easy to be like, well, I, I'm not really sure if I should keep talking about it. So I think second guessing can be a huge piece.

Well, and it can be even more of a piece if we're operating out of insecurity and not operating out of a healthy place of saying, yeah, of course it's uncomfortable for you because no one ever told you, but we're going to change that. And I remember teaching on this one time and saying that I made this statement, God is sexual. I mean, I had staff coming to me, not their God, right? And I said, well, who do you think created this thing? Who do you think? It was a male staff at that time, just him and I. And I said, who do you think put nerve endings in the head of the penis? God did that. Right. That was by design for bonding and pleasure and procreation. And so if you don't, if you, if you disconnect sexuality and God, we got a faulty foundation at the very beginning because we're made in his image, male and female. And if you don't have that healthy piece to start, whether it's a family of origin issue or your church culture or any community you're in. Boy, that's. I think, I think you're. It's uphill batter from right there.

Yeah, yeah. So we want to be able to talk about the topic in ways that's helpful, that encourages people, that gives them a solid biblical foundation, but real practical direction. So Rodney, what would you say are some guidelines or practical advice for communicators to follow when they're teaching on sex and purity?

First of all, I think just getting a good understanding of purity or holiness or whatever term you want to call it. So I've come to believe right or wrong and you're welcome to push back on this or any listener sure can. But I just would offer it as a way of thinking that God was pure or holy before sin ever entered the equation. So whatever it is it about God that's pure or holy, in my opinion, it has to do with relationship working. It has to be with seeing right relationship happen with our self and with others.

It's not just the absence of sin.

Exactly. So I think one of the practical advices that I would give is don't just make this about sex. Make it, take a step back and make it about right relationship with yourself and with others. And I think that's a much healthier approach because now we're talking about, well, there's something not right with myself and I'm using sex to cope with it, so. Or to mismanage how to process what's going on in my life. And so I think it's just stepping back and you have to have a holistic approach. We're not just going to talk about here's the do and don'ts of sex, but the reason why and what we were made for and having that. Not just a theological background, but in some ways a theological background to say we were made for. Right relationship. This is the core of who God is. Relationship. Another word for that is love. Other centered, self, giving love. And so that's got to be a practical piece as we approach any subject that we mismanage. So I think that creates a whole healthier platform to start the conversation.

Well, and even off of that, I think too sharing your story, making it like humanizing the topic, because I think that we can talk about certain topics and just say this big philosophical 30,000 foot view of this, you know, this issue or this topic can be one approach. But if you really get into the trees and talk about it as someone who is a sexual being and who has, you know, don't share all of your stuff and bleed all over the congregation. But at the same time, if you humanize it, whether it's you sharing or someone else, you definitely invite people into, okay, this is a normal thing that normal people can struggle with. And so I think just practically how you approach it and the language you use can either invite people in or really, I think in some ways you're not giving the invitation for them to walk inside. And so they still look at it as this, you know, this structure or this idea or this topic that they don't need to engage in. But if you invite them in, they're much more likely to. To really start addressing in their own lives.

Right? Yeah.

When I think of advice to communicators, in my mind, there are three moves we need to make. We need to help people move from isolation to community. Sexual brokenness, by its nature, isolates us and keeps us separated. And so any communicating and preaching on it needs to move people towards relationship, towards group, towards involvement with others. So don't just send someone home on their own to work on their purity. Invite them into relationship. The second move is to really go from the conversation being for you who struggle to the conversation being for all of us. Because we are all, as you're mentioning, Rodney, we're all sexual beings and we're all impacted by this somehow. And as soon as we say, well, for you who struggle, we create a very limited, shameful group that's being spoken to that most of us don't want to be included in. Like, well, thank goodness that's not me, when really it is me. So when you communicate, communicate to all of us. And then also the move from having this be a men's problem to being a people problem, when you preach on it, don't preach to the men because there's women having the same kind of battle and they need to know the hope and freedom exist. So speak about it as all of us as a people problem and as something that draws us into community.

That's good. So with this not addressing this topic or being unaware of how to approach it, we can inadvertently preach some messages from up front and from the leadership. So let's talk about those a little bit. What are those inadvertent messages that we send our congregation or the people that God's placed under our leadership if we don't talk about sexual struggles?

Well, I think first we could be saying, this isn't a problem here.

Yeah.

And being in denial of it or because I don't talk about it. That means as the. As the leader slash pastor, it means that I've never struggled or this struggle's never hit my home. And again, I think that's. There's a word for that. It's just denial. And so I think avoiding it, it creates a sense of. It's the unmentionable. We don't talk about that at our church, but we do talk a lot about deep biblical truths and the end times and, you know, all that stuff, but we don't talk about sex, you know, and this is something that's such a core relational piece to how we're made, you know, and so, anyway, I think that's really one of the reasons why that it can send the wrong message.

Yeah. You know, the messages I learned, because I grew up in an environment that very much did not talk about sex at church or in the home, the messages I received, and I think that many people receive, is that sex is secretive. It's not something to be talked about. That sex is shameful, that maybe outside of that sliver of appropriate sex between a man and a woman in a marriage, that anything else is shameful to even have experienced. And also that sex is disconnected from God. Like you were saying earlier, Rodney, the message is that God is not interested in your sexuality. And the danger is we live in a world where everywhere we go, it's about sex now. I mean, it's everywhere. And then if people come to church and it's nowhere, it's like, oh, I guess God isn't interested in my sexuality, and we disconnect the two that I come to church and I'm not a sexual being, but then the rest of my life I am. And that's a very, very dangerous message to live with.

Right?

Yeah. And I think, too, that if you don't talk about this, what you're almost setting up is that the Bible or that God is not the authority on this topic. Because if we don't talk about it, but we hear about it in school, we hear about it in movies, in music, in literature, in any media platform, if that's where we're hearing what sex is, then that becomes the authority, because that's the voice I'm hearing. And so if the church is not talking about these issues, then we're not actively saying that the Bible or that God doesn't have authority over this topic, but we can inadvertently say, you shouldn't come here for the right way to do this or the right way to process this or the right way to understand this. So I think that that's a, a really major one, especially today with kids who are growing up with social media in their hands by the time they're seven, eight, nine years old.

Yeah, yeah, good point.

You know, I think when it comes to this topic, maybe one of the fears or reasons that we don't speak about it more is there have been some bad examples, there maybe been some abuses of how open someone is or just those awkward moments that were created. So, Rodney, what would you say along those lines about how much is too much when we're preaching or talking about our sexual struggles?

Well, I think just as the leader point of view, the pulpit isn't the place to do your therapy work or to work out your history. It's not. And it's really not a point to work out kind of any of that stuff that be done in community. To me, the stage or the platform or the podium, it's the time to begin to teach truth. And I think sometimes, unfortunately, it's used to kind of work out our stuff. And that's why, you know, it's a little bit of my soapbox. But in the western church, we put too much emphasis on the stage and not enough emphasis on the community. Face to face relationships. That's why at Pure Desire, we talk about community and getting in the groups. Betrell and beyond. Eight pillars for women, seven pillars for men. That's why in AA or essay, it's all about community. It's all about circling the table and, and face to face, hearing your story. So I would say pastors, you know, the platform is a place to speak about your healing, not to try to find your healing. And I think that's so crucial and I think you can definitely overshare and it can be inappropriate.

Well, I think it's okay to invite people to walk alongside you as you're, as you're pursuing purity. Yeah. Like you're saying, Ronnie, that's exactly right. Because I think that I feel better after I've told people or my spouse or someone else about my struggles. I finally get it off my chest. And if that's what preaching is becoming, then really what it is, is preaching then becomes about me. And preaching is never supposed to be about me or whoever is preaching. But I think that there's this invitation, if we start using the we and the us and the I type of language that invites people to walk alongside me as we're trying to better understand the topic.

Yeah.

And I think some of the dangers there of when too much Is we don't need to be unnecessarily graphic. I mean, I think we need to talk accurately about our body and use correct terminology. But to get into slang or being too descriptive of something that happened, you can speak in kind of broad terms and everyone gets the message. So just to consider your audience there. And something else that comes to mind that I've seen and experienced is when a communicator begins telling someone else's story and they think they've, you know, oh, I didn't use their names, but, you know, it's a small world and people begin to go, whose story is he telling? And it creates a fear that, well, when will my story maybe show up in a message? And so just be very, very cautious that even if you think, oh, no one would put together the pieces, you really don't want to begin telling other people's stories unless they've given you permission to say, yeah, if that can help people share our story. Otherwise you need to kind of stick to what you do have permission to share.

Yeah, exactly. And I think male or female, if it's your. Your couple story or family story, get permission from people in, you know, the. Both couples, individuals in the marriage or the family. You know, are you okay with us sharing the story? It just creates mutual respect when you do that.

Yeah. So when talking about this, it definitely is possible to get negative feedback. So when that feedback comes, like, you know, maybe it's feedback that this shouldn't be discussed in the church or that my kids were in this service. How could you speak on this stuff when they're there? If this sort of really, this feedback comes, how do we handle that? What's the best way to approach those conversations?

With grace, compassion and kindness? Not trying to be argumentative or I think, always being empathic listener of. Tell me why that was concerning for you. What are some of your concerns that your child heard? Not trying to just convince someone they're wrong and you should go about this, but try to understand where they're coming from, because that could give you more insight of how to follow up. I think we just don't do a good job at listening just in general. Well, but I think that's a better way. Anybody that has any concerns, I would ask, well, why do you think that? Tell me what you're thinking, what did you hear? You know? And then I think once you get the response, I think that gives you a much better lay of the land of how to move forward to help direct the conversation.

I think we need to Be aware that that person coming to us may have stuff in their background that they need to deal with. And maybe their reaction is because they grew up in a very abusive situation and the message triggered them, and they've never dealt with the abuse. They just know there's things they're feeling they don't want to feel, and rather than face it, they want to squash it. And so you need to listen to know their heart and where they're coming from. Or maybe they grew up in a really legalistic home and background where it just feels wrong to them and you have that opportunity to help them process. Maybe this isn't wrong. Maybe it's just the way you've been made to feel about your sexuality. And then also just looking for those opportunities to create that culture of grace where you're saying, if people can't talk openly and honestly about their sexuality in church, where can they? And yes, there's appropriate levels and places to get detailed or to go deep, but to just create that expectation in your church to say, we want to be a place where it's okay to be real, it's okay to not have it all figured out, and it's okay to talk about our sexuality. And I think as we keep casting that vision piece, people will start to see the value. And they look at their kids and they go, yeah, I want my kids to hear a godly perspective. I don't want them to only hear about it at school and health class. I want them to know what God thinks about them and their bodies and how he made them. So hopefully, as we paint that picture of that vision, people will catch a glimpse of it and say, yeah, that would be a good thing. Let's go in that direction.

Yeah. And I just don't take it personal, because in all reality, it's probably not about you. If the Holy Spirit's working in someone's life and they use your words and the Holy Spirit uses your words in that person's life, they tend to freak out at the person they heard it from, not from the person who's giving the message. And so if the Holy Spirit is the one who's talking, don't take it personal. And then just a practical thing, and I wouldn't, like, lead with this every time, but I think that statistics are harder to argue with. If you know that there are statistics out there in the church, this is what it's looking like based on the type of person you're talking to. I think that that could be helpful. Like, well, here's what Statistically is true in the church. And I want us to be a part of a church that is addressing this rather than just sitting by and watching things happen.

Yeah, it can be a good idea, too. If you do get some negative feedback, maybe you're a little uncertain. So to be open enough to go to another friend or a fellow pastor, someone that, you know, maybe does address this well in their community or their church, and just say, hey, here's the approach I took. Here's what I shared. What do you think? Was some of it too far? And having that constructive feedback can be helpful to you? Because maybe, as I said, if we're not used to talking about sex, maybe as we get more open and in helping people process their sexuality, we do go a little too far, we get a little too personal, and someone can train us and mentor us and say, you know, next time, maybe I would go here instead. Or we just want to be open to as communicators that we need to develop, too, and not just assume that. I've always got it figured out. So have mentors, have friends, people that you can go to after that criticism and say, hey, what do you think? What part of this do I need to listen to and what part should I let go of?

Are you trying to say that us pastors should be humble?

Well, it can help.

I mean, I couldn't agree with that anymore, because just because you're on stage doesn't make you the expert. I recently did a men's retreat where a guy came up with this very thing. Trevor and Nick. He said, I don't think you should share this in mixed audiences. To which I said, I think that's really good advice. And I didn't. Today, this was just a men's group. So what I share in a mini group is different. What I would share on a Sunday morning or at a couples retreat. But in men's group, I share this piece, but I thought his concern was valid, and I just tried to affirm that. You know what? I really appreciate you sharing that, because I felt that same thing. And I want you to know I'm aware of that. And I think it just buys trust. It just shows you care about what people think and you could be wrong. You could over share. And so I think humility always serves us well.

Well, Rodney, that is a great lead into the next question, because I've heard you share your story a number of times. You know, I know you're very open and you've had opportunities to become comfortable with that, but for many People, they maybe never have. They're not sure what they should share and what they shouldn't, or they may have grown up in some of those church environments that they actually directly say, don't talk about this in the pulpit. If you have this need, you talk about at the counselor, but in the pulpit, this isn't something you discuss. So as they're thinking through being open and addressing this. How much of our story should we share when talking about sex or sexual addiction from the front?

Well, first of all, I think a great way to start is when we share our story in community. We heal. So you have to talk to heal. So the more we share our story and the woundedness and our, you know, the work that we do, from arousal template to, you know, all the. All the healthy work in community, it's knowing the discernment of what's to be shared in those settings and then what's not necessarily to be brought in a public setting. And sometimes I think it's always great to talk to people about it or ask questions before you even attempt to. But the pulpit should never be the first time to share anything. It just shouldn't be. And then the other part is, I think, inviting other people when you're crafting a talk on this that know you. That you're saying, hey, give me some of your feedback on what to share, what not to share. Yeah, but I think it's. It's. There's a discernment piece of. That there's a prompting of. Of what sense is the right thing to share. But discernment is. And wisdom is always so good. And I think that's, you know, asking God for wisdom, what to share and how to share it is so crucial.

Yeah. I've always said, don't ever surprise your wife or your elders when you're talking about sex.

Yeah.

Because you need to know. I mean, this is a personal area, and it is sensitive for people. So you need to know that they have your back, that they support what you're saying, and that if someone comes to them to complain and go, why do you share that? Or what were they thinking? That your spouse or your elders would be that, like, no, this is healthy. This is good. We're with him, we're with her. And then the other advice I would give about how much to share is you can share whatever you have processed. So if it's something you have processed back to what you were saying earlier, Rodney, if it's a place you've. It doesn't mean you have to have it perfectly down. But you've processed it. You've worked through it with people that can be shared. But if there's parts of your story you haven't processed that you haven't really figured out what to do with, you probably need to keep processing that with others in a safe group before that becomes part of what you're sharing in a sermon or as part of a testimony.

Well, and then to invite other people in to do that speaking if you're in the middle of your struggle or if maybe because there are people out there who this is not their issue, but this topic should still be addressed is have people share their testimony, like people who've been through the healing process or maybe, you know, other pastors or friends of yours who have touched on this. It's okay to have them in. And I think that's following the humility piece is don't feel like you have to be the voice or the authority over this topic. So you can invite a married couple who's been going through this or experiencing some healing, have them come up and share their story, or bring in another pastor who, you know has gone through a group or gone through counseling and can speak on this. So I think thinking of this topic, you don't have to be the one who's necessarily the voice for it.

Well, that's the beauty of what Ted and Diane Roberts have helped start here at Pure Desire. There's a lot of men and women in our organization that can come and speak on this subject in a very healthy way at all the different levels, couples, individuals, and all kinds of settings. And so that's great. Taking advantage of that resource.

Yeah. Okay, so what are some no no's when it comes to doing this? I mean, we've kind of already talked a little bit about these. But specifically when addressing this topic, what are some things we really, really should avoid?

I think I'm going to let Nick start on this because he's the smartest among us.

Well, I'm honored by that, Ryan.

That's hurtful.

I will share my couple of thoughts, but I'd love to hear yours as well. A couple of things that I've seen and that I would just really counsel against is in the message, don't say so go home and tell everything to your spouse because they need to know. That tends to create more harm than good. It is okay to create an expectation of honesty and to say at some point your spouse needs to know everything, but you need to realize that if someone is currently in the midst of their Struggle and they go home and try to unload. They're going to either share too much or withhold the things they really need to share. And it's going to create a situation where the spouse is now very triggered and hurt and doesn't necessarily know what to do. I mean, it seems like the right step, but it's not the best first step. So don't send people home to have this no holds bar honest conversation, because it's like telling someone to, you know, go throw up and then let another person deal with it. I mean, that's just not fair to the spouse and they don't have the tools to deal with it. And that's the second thing I'd say is a no no is don't just preach about how someone needs to change or how bad this sin is without giving some tools and some hope of restoration of what healing looks like. Because I think that's one of the misconceptions we have in preaching is we think that the reason people struggle is because they don't have right beliefs. What I find is that it's not a question of people's beliefs, because by and large, people who are attempting to follow Jesus Christ, men and women, believe that it's wrong, believe they should stop wrongful sexual behavior, believe that God's called them to purity, they just don't have the tools to accomplish it. They don't know how to get there. And so if all we do is preach this awesome message on purity, most people are going to go home feeling shameful. That. Yep, that's exactly what I believe. And why can't I figure this out? So make sure you have tools, you have groups, you have a plan to say, and here's what health looks like, here's what we're doing as a church to give you opportunities to grow. And then the last thing that might seem obvious, but it at least needs to be mentioned, particularly in a mixed setting. Please don't call for a public response. You know, don't ask people to stand, even to raise hand. I mean, if you ask people to raise hands with their eyes closed, if your spouse is sitting right next to you, they can tell when your arm goes up. You know, just, it might be your culture is used to response, but make sure the response is to say, hey, I don't want you to respond because you're struggling. I just, I'm asking for a response today. If you're committing yourself to holiness or something like that could be okay. But in general, if I'm preaching on Sex and purity. I'm not going to ask for a public response because there is just so much shame. There's so much possibility of what are people going to think of me? I give people a way to respond, but it's not publicly. It's a way that confidentially they can let us know. I'd like help. I'd like information on groups. I need some follow up. But to do it in a way that, like what we used to do in my church is in the bulletin. There would be a text number and we'd say, guys or gals, if you're a man and you're struggling, here's a number you can text women, here's a number you can text. Because the great thing is then they could go home later and at a time when they're ready, they can send that text and not fear who's going to know. And so just a couple of things that I would think about what to avoid when preaching on sex and purity.

Ditto. Ditto. Ditto. Nick, I think you said a lot. Well, I would just say just two more things I would add is go for the heart, not just the behavior. People know that the behavior needs to change, but talk about there's underlying issues at times that drive us to poor behavior. And if you just focus on behavior only, you could not go to the deeper issues. So really that step back and try to not just make it about you're doing this. What's that, Bob? New hard video. Stop it. You know that. So stop it. Stop it, Stop it. Like you said, people know that. But there might be things that are driving it. And then the second thing is don't offer quick fixes. Yeah, don't do that. I grew up with quick fixes. Come down front, cry your eyes out at this altar. Tell God how sorry you are.

Right.

We used to call it repentance. And then you're going to be free from that change.

Oh, yeah, yeah.

Quick, you know, I mean, I sent 50 bucks to the televangelist because he promised me that that would fix it. And I'm still going to write that letter for a refund, but with interest. It's a process. How we grow as humans is always slowly, painfully incrementally, but always relationally. So don't just call people to a decision, call them to a relationship text and get in a group, sign up online. We want to meet you. And I think this is where in some ways we fundamentally miss the heart of the gospel. It's relationship. It's. It's Decision and relationship going hand in hand.

Yeah, so that was, I mean, that was awesome. I'm just going to two like small things. I don't feel like I can compare to those two for the both of what you shared. But two more no nos, I think. And Nick, you touched on this earlier. Using you and they type of language is definitely something that is, I think is a no no from the pulpit, just in general. But I think when talking about this, this issue that causes shame and then only sharing stories from men who are struggling, I think also is a no no. I think if you can share multiple stories from multiple vantage points, you're going to reach a broader audience with the message.

Well, that's a great point. What you were saying earlier, Trevor, about bringing in other people to speak. If you're a man and you're the pastor and you're always the one speaking, you know, depending on your theological tradition. And do you have women preach or not? At a minimum, inviting women who are ready to share their testimony to talk about what this is like from a woman's perspective? I mean, honestly, if you're a man and you're preaching, you can't duplicate that woman's side. You can try to tell the story, but there's just no substitute for actually involving some women in this. So look for those women that God has raised up, that he's doing some things in their life and say, hey, would you help tell the other side of the story? And whether it's their wounding and how they're being finding healing from that, or if it's their own story of struggle because they're going to speak to other women. But not only that, a woman is going to help a man see something in a way that you can't if you're a man. There's just a way because we've had this where my wife and I go and share at something and the guys come like, oh, thanks, Nick. But then I'm like, I have never heard a woman share that. I can't. And I'm like, wow. And my wife always feels embarrassed because she feels like she's not a very good speaker. But there's something about a woman's voice that will really, really reach out to men and help them see their behavior in a different light.

Yeah, good.

Well, guys, this is, this is really good stuff. I hope everyone listening is able to take some things out of it to think through. How do we create cultures where we're talking about sex and our sexuality and connecting it to God and connecting it to our faith. So, Rodney, as we look to wrap up here, what are some final encouragements or some final words that you would give to any pastor or preacher, anyone teaching when they're speaking about the topic of sex or sexual addiction?

I think, first of all, you have to understand why the way of God is the better way. Why you think scripture or the teachings of Jesus or how we see how God made us. There's a better way to do something and a way that's not the better way. I think that it's so important that we just don't say, here's what to do, but the why behind it. The why behind it. What's the benefit of doing that and allowing people to experience the spirit, drawing them to the better way because they want it, because they have to. I still go back to my opening comments about purity or holiness is fundamentally setting relationships right with ourselves and other people. And I think when I'm right with Rodney and I'm right with others, trust me, it's amazing how well God and I are doing. Yeah. So fundamentally saying, what's keeping you from healthy relationships? I think it's a healthier way just to look at this piece of our sexuality and how it's broken. But some of us, it's going to be. This is going to be a big step to start talking about this subject and doing it in maybe a healthier way than a shaming way. I would recommend calling pure desire and, you know, having somebody come and help, help start the heart, stop the car, start the conversation, or, you know, be a part of a series. I think it's a great investment. And because we're group focused and we're relational focused, that's the bread and butter. I think, you know, for me, that's what. That's what so resonates with me about that.

I think one of the things that I even struggled with as I got into. Into group and started my healing process, and my journey was to think that I had to talk about this all the time, that then every sermon has to be about this. Let me just say this publicly. You do not have to force this topic into every single message you preach. If you are going through a series that touches on addiction or struggles or secret sin, or if you're going through a passage that's talking about sexual integrity and purity, you're talking about holiness, use those opportunities to talk about this, but don't force it, because you don't need to shove this stuff down your congregation's throat. That's not going to Help anybody, but to not shy away when the topics come up.

Yeah. And I think what comes to mind for me is just to look at the reality that sexual things are growing in our culture at an exponential rate. You look at the amount of pornographic websites, the amount of videos being produced, the revenue of the porn industry, what's happening in the realm of virtual reality, there is exponential growth in those things. And then you look at the response of the church, and in my opinion, the response of the church has been marginal. We're growing, we're making some progress, but our marginal growth is not nearly keeping pace with the exponential growth of sexual content in our culture. And the gap between those two things, quite frankly, scares me, because the way I would describe that gap is the word irrelevance. Because people are being wrecked by the sexual nature of our culture. And then they're coming to the church and they're hearing little to nothing about it. And it's going to lead particularly, I believe, that the coming generations of young men and young women that grow up with nothing but the Internet, nothing but exposure to pornography, and they'll go to churches that don't ever talk a word about it. And they will conclude there's nothing here for me, because the area of my life where I feel most lost and broken, I don't even see what Jesus has to do with it. So my encouragement to anyone listening is to say, we have to go after this. If we don't go after this topic, we're going to lose our voice in this culture. But if we go after it with maturity, with grace, with truth and integrity, there is an opportunity here for the church to be a light, I think, in ways we haven't seen in a long time. And so if you have any role in your church to be a voice in this, please go after it. Because I think the future generations are really at stake here and the relevance of the church. And anything we can do to help, we're here for you.

I just echo that. That's what I love about pure desire. They're here to help the local church, and maybe it's communicate on a weekend and please call us, we'll come. Or maybe it's just how to start groups. Get a hold of Rich and Ashley. But those podcast listeners listen to what God's asking you to do, to help your fellowship, take a step forward, because you may be the catalyst for your pastor. And so listen and respond. And you could say, hey, do a series on this, or let's bring someone in on this, or I Want to start a group on this or whatever. Bring in the university, Pure Desire University. I think there's so many ways that you could listen and respond.

So Rodney is like our personal hype man. He's just like, hey, plug, plug, plug, plug, plug. Here we go. Here we go.

I believe in it. I'm smoking what we're selling.

That's right.

I believe in this concept of relationship.

That's right.

Don't get me all fired up. That's going to be another.

That's right. Well, I love learning from you guys and talking about how churches can better help men and women. I think that truly is at the heart. You know, Nick, what you're saying is truly what we all believe. We really want the church to be equipped and ultimately churches have cultures and what we communicate, when we communicate and how we communicate directly shapes, molds and leads that culture. So it's important to focus on reaching God's people with trust, truth, and the hope that's offered to broken people. So, Nick, Rodney, thanks so much, guys. Appreciate the conversation.

So glad to be a part and always fun hanging out with you too, especially.

Yeah, thanks you guys. Good, good stuff.

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