072 - FAQ #6

Welcome to the Pure Desire podcast, where we partner with you to bring hope and freedom on your journey to purity. Hey there. I'm your host, Trevor Windsor, and we're so thankful you're taking time out of your day to hang out with us. I'm here with my co host, as always, Nick Stumbo.

Yabba dabba dabba dabba doo.

So for maybe some of our listeners who don't know what that's from.

Wow.

Okay. So we're talking about the Flintstones, Am I correct?

I'm impressed that you know that, because that's really before your generation. That's like my era of cartoons.

That is your era. I will give you that. I think I've seen there's a John Goodman movie.

Yeah. Late 90s.

Yeah, I saw that. I've seen that. But I grew up watching some of the Jetsons, some of the Flintstones, you know, the throwback channels. Basically.

The Jetsons.

Yeah.

Okay, we can save that for another one.

Let's do that.

So.

So today it's just the two of us. No guest. It's just us. And so if you are a listener who only listens based on us having a guest, you are out of luck. You are out of luck for today. So before it gets really out of hand, Cause on our time, it's a Monday afternoon, we're a little antsy in the office. We're gonna jump into today's topic, which is Frequently asked questions number six. So this is gonna be a time where we dive into all different types of questions. We always get all these types of questions at our events, and we're not always able to answer them in the moment or even during our speaking events. So we hope that these episodes can answer your questions. And if you do have questions, make sure to send them into us. We'll have some time at the end. We'll tell you how to do that.

Well, and some of these are questions we're getting pretty regularly at events. And so I think it's good for podcast listeners that may not be able to come to an event to hear how we would respond to some of these, because I think today's episode definitely has some of those tricky ones that are hard to know how to navigate. There's not like a verse in the Bible you can just turn to and goes, oh, well, that answers my question. It's in these gray areas or just things that we can have some principles, but maybe not specifics. And so hopefully today will be helpful to everyone listening.

Definitely. So let's just jump in with the first question, this one comes from Joseph B. That guy. Joseph B. You out there, you've sent in this, probably your sixth or seventh question.

So we appreciate he's winning.

Yeah, you are winning. Way to go. So his question is, how does shame diminish as someone becomes more aware of why they do what they do?

Yeah, I think that's a great question. And for me, it starts by identifying, really, what is the voice of shame saying to us? And I think one of the primary things that comes to mind for me is that shame is a voice attempting to convince us that we're uniquely bad. So it's that voice that says, I'm evil or there's something wrong with me. That's the way a lot of people express it. There's just something wrong with me. And when we're saying that, what we're expressing is there's something wrong with me in a way that it's not wrong with everybody else. Because we all can recognize we live in a fallen, broken world. There are things as human beings we just experience as being part of the human condition. But shame isolates us in a way to say, no, no, you've got something that's uniquely bad about you. And that's where health really does so much to diminish that shame. Because first off, it helps us see that we're not alone. As we step into these safe, confidential groups and we're opening up and telling our story and hearing others do the same, there's all these light bulbs or moments of awareness to go, oh, it's not just me. Other people think that way. Other people have these struggles. And the more we tell our story, I think the more we find we're not alone. But not only that. What comes in this process is really understanding that the things that we battle with, whether it's the things that trigger us or arouse us, the kind of things we're drawn to sexually, the things that maybe we feel particularly tempted by, we can see how those are often connected to the trauma that we've experienced as kids or the painful things in our lives. And we see through the neurochemistry of our brain that our brains were made to respond that way. We talk about this a lot at events that God designed our brain for health, and he designed our brain to remember painful or traumatic things so that we could avoid them in an instant without having to think or respond. And it really is probably one of the things that has made sure the human race survives, because otherwise, we're too stupid. We would do the same things over, and we'd all be gone. But in God's creation, he created that limbic brain to remember those things and respond to them without having to go through the prefrontal cortex and think through it. But that very same system, God's beautifully designed system, has been hijacked by sin and Satan and is the very thing being used against us where we're remembering trauma and pain and. And we've learned ways to respond to it, how to deal with those intense emotions or those negative things in our life. And one of the things we hear, you know, our good friend Heather Kolb say all the time at our events is that neurons that fire together wire together. So that's so true sexually, that when we've had a sexual experience or something early in life, and this is true, whether it's good or bad, that even if it's bad, we can still be learning from it and creating that same pathway that now 20, 30, 50 years later in life, we're still responding in some of the same ways. So I think that's how I would respond to that, is just when we unmask this whole system and we realize we're doing things not because we're an evil, wicked person and we're worse than others, but because we've been wounded and we've learned ways to respond to that that can really destigmatize the shame and help us to respond in healthy ways to the things that we battle.

Yeah. And I mean, I just think that it's so important to understand where stuff's coming from. If you don't know where it's coming from, then you can't fix it. You can't turn it off. And so I think it's really important to figure out as best as we can and with such clarity, why are these things happening? Why do I respond this way? Why does this certain situation trigger me this way? So, basically, what I see is that as clarity increases, shame decreases. Because I'm starting to see how everything fits together.

Yeah. And a lot of times that clarity comes when we start to see our patterns. And this is one of the benefits of the faster scale that we use in so many of our groups and have talked about on this podcast, how we begin to recognize the steps we take towards a relapse. And I've heard so many men or women that feel a lot of shame because they're like, oh, I was having a great week. And then all of a sudden. And they'll use words like that out of the blue, I Relapsed or fell into this intense temptation, what's wrong with me? But when you see in your faster scale, you've been moving towards that in these little ways over the course of days, that awareness, oh, it's not just that suddenly I'm an evil person and I did something evil, that I'm just continuing a pattern in my life. And when we see the pattern, then we really gain some ability to change it. And that's encouraging.

Yeah, for sure.

All right, so let's dive into our second question. Thanks, Joseph B. For that first one. But our second question is, how do we create a recovery action plan if our spouse is not willing to help due to consistent failure? And for anyone that's not familiar, the recovery action plan is something that we have in place where we have agreed if we relapse, steps that we will take. But usually it also incorporates steps that our spouse has asked us to take in order to help us reestablish trust and help them feel safe. So, Trevor, what thoughts do you have if a spouse is not willing to participate in that because there's been a pattern of failure?

Well, I think that the common thing to maybe do is to try to do it by yourself, but I think that that's the wrong thing. So I think that especially if our spouse doesn't want to be a part of our healing, which we see a lot of people have that as a part of their story and is to not give up then on their healing and not to try to do it alone. Cause I think that shame kind of pushes us into this isolation pocket, and then if we continue going down, that nothing good ever happens. So I think that if your spouse doesn't want to jump in and help out with the recovery action plan, especially if it's due to failure, my first question is, are you in a group? And then if you are in a group, you need to be doing that with your group members. So have them be a part of that process because they're going to see things and they're going to be able to really pinpoint a lot of stuff that you're going to miss. So I think that if you involve community in creating, what is it going to look like if relapse does happen and moving forward in health, I think it's important to always include other people.

Yeah. And I think it's good to recognize that a spouse may not want to be involved because this has been a painful area, and so they're trying to avoid pain. They just kind of want to shut themselves off from it. But the reason it's painful is because you keep doing things you've committed not to. And so what they need to see in you is not more words or more talk about, well, we got to have this plan, but they actually need to see you living out your plan. And so I would encourage you, even if your spouse doesn't want to contribute anything, I think it would be healthy to go to them and say, honey, it's my desire to change this behavior in my life, and I know I haven't done well, but I want you to know here are commitments that I'm making if I relapse that I'm going to do. And I invite you to watch me and see if I do these. And it may even be some commitments to the spouse and whether or not the spouse wants to contribute their own, that's fine. But then they can really watch and see. Are they gonna hold up their end of the bargain? Are they gonna stick to their word? And then, as you said, I would make those same commitments to a group to say, hey, my spouse doesn't really want to hear about this. And so here's what I'm doing, here's what I've committed to telling them. Here's the steps I've committed to taking, because it's building consistency in your life and a reliability behavior that I think will open them up to say, well, something is changing here. And, you know, just a reminder to listeners, we kind of always find that this is in proportion that the stronger your recovery action plan is, the less likely you'll need it.

Yeah.

And so if your spouse doesn't want to be engaged, like you said, the wrong thing to do would be to just go, oh, I guess that tool's not important for me, because that's only going to increase the likelihood you'll continue to relapse. You actually need to go the other way and maybe make your plan even more difficult and commit to your group so that you know there's a high price to pay for relapse. And if that's what it's going to take for me to learn it's not worth it, then I'm going to go for it.

Yeah. It really comes down to doing whatever it takes to get healthy.

Yeah.

Yeah. Okay, so next question is, how long should it take someone to get sexually healthy? This is a big question.

Well, yeah, and in some ways, the question maybe is a bit misworded because it implies. Or maybe my fear is that someone's implying I can get to a point that I'm healthy and then I don't need to do all this stuff anymore, all done, graduated. It's just kind of like saying with my physical health that if I've arrived at a point of health, I can quit eating healthy, stop exercising and just do whatever I want because hey, I'm healthy. Well, we know that's not true physically and it's not true sexually either. So really the question is about how do I get to a point or how long will it take to get to a point where I can really maintain sexual health. And that's where we bring up that it's a process. It's not something that happens quickly because for most of us we've been spending years, if not decades developing these unhealthy patterns. So we have to take this long view of change. And we talk all the time about that two to five year mark. And really that two to five year mark is the window for where sexual health becomes the new norm for us. And we look at some stages of that. In fact, Patrick Carnes, who's the leading expert in this area from a secular standpoint, where we get our training as counselors on the clinical side, he talks about the five stages of that repair process being first of all, the crisis or the decision to change. Second stage, working through the shock of it and just all the impact it's going to have on your relationship. The third stage is grieving and working through the loss of what we thought we had or the lives that we've been living facing those. The fourth stage, moving into repair. And that that stage of relationship repair for many couples is a year or two process of re establishing trust and new rhythms and learning how to date one another and have real intimacy and not just pretend like things are okay. And then from repair is growth. It's now we have a foundation to actually build on and begin to speaking into the lives of our kids or telling our story to others. And when you see those stages, I mean you could spend that first year just in working through the shock and the grief and beginning the repair and then moving into the stages that could happen in a year, two or three and beyond. And so I know for some that might seem discouraging. But just to remind you what we have said to many people, that doesn't mean it's going to take two to five years to stop problematic behaviors. We find most people can change and stop those behaviors if they're really all in on this within the first 60 days. But in terms of really being at a place of health, it's having that long view to say it's going to take some time and being dedicated to lasting change, not just a quick fix.

Right. And being aware that if you've spent 15 years in an addiction, it's not going to take 10 weeks to get out. Even if you get great tools and great information up front, it's not going to solve anything. You got to give your brain time to rewire itself, which, you know, sounds. That sounds tough. And it's going to take a lot of patience. But really, we see that if you put in the work, and that's really what I would say to this question, is it's dependent on the work that you put into it. If you put a lot of work into this, you're going to get a lot of results out of it. And so just to know that as you're jumping into this, this active and ongoing, really, journey of sexual health, it's going to really require you to put in work. And you can't really coast in this journey.

Yeah. Well, I think also to go back to, how are we defining health? Because some people maybe think that health will mean I don't have any unwanted desires. I don't feel any temptation, like, it's just out of my life. And that would be awesome. And if you get there, please write us and tell us what you did, because we probably need to learn from you. But some of the reality is we're still human beings. And so, going back to the physical health analogy, I think of myself as an overall fairly healthy person, But I have a lot of struggles at night where I want to snack late at night, and I know it's not good for me, but sometimes, just like, I want to do this, and I don't think that will ever necessarily change about me because it's just part of my pattern now. I don't have to give into it, and I could learn a lot more there. But as I think of sexual health, to believe that I'm just going to get to a place where I'm no longer triggered by anything. I don't find anyone outside of my wife appealing. I mean, we are people that are becoming more like Christ, and we're going to be battling those things. And I say all that just to bring up the point that we can be healthy by how we respond, not just because of what we desire or find ourselves drawn to. And so I think a lot of us, people that are in a year or two down the road of recovery might still be beating themselves up to say Well, I must not be healthy because I still find myself wanting these things or moving in this direction. Well, that may be your humanity, your brokenness coming back out. The bigger question is, how are you responding to those desires? Do you lean into community? Do you reach out to people? Do you face it honestly? Do you have healthy guardrails in place? I mean, that's what health is. Not the absence of those desires or temptations, but a real framework how to deal with them. Okay, let's talk about question number four then. What is the best way to handle a group member? So getting into some group questions here. What's the best way to handle a group member who consistently complains about their spouse in group?

Yes. So let's just say this first. This is not something that can never happen in group. I think that there are times where it's okay to allow a group member to just express some frustration that's going on and to be honest about how they feel. Let's just be really clear, that's okay. But if every week they're coming to group and saying, my wife did this, my husband did this, and it's all there and it's just really pointing the finger, and if it becomes something where they're pointing the finger outward but never pointing it back at themselves, then you can see there's a habit there, there's maybe a heart issue at play. But for me, I think of Matthew 18, the whole idea of if you're a group leader approaching that person one on one after group before group, and saying, look, this is something that I've been noticing and I just want to check in and see where you're at on this and allowing there to be some dialogue. Now, if nothing changes and it continues, then maybe talking about it in group. And really this is what I would suggest is that there are group members who are a part of this to really only explain how it affects them personally. Don't say, hey, as a group, we talked about this, and just say, look, when you talk about your husband or you talk about your wife like this in group, this is how it makes me feel. And so go around that way. That would be the second step. And then the third would be at some point keep coming back to the group guidelines, the memo of understanding. And if it really is something that's unhealthy, you might have to ask that person to step out of group for the time being and communicate it. That it's not just that you see this unhealthy habit in their life or trajectory. They're setting, but also talk about how it's negatively affecting the group and creating an unsafe place and a place where people don't feel like they're getting out of it what they should or what they feel like they should. And so the whole Matthew 18 really kind of plan, that's what I would suggest.

Yeah. And I think about those group guidelines, that guideline of focusing on self, to bring that up as a group, to say the reason this is in there is because we need to focus on controlling what we can control. And we can't control other people, we can't control their reactions or actions, we can't make them change, but we can control ourselves and our actions and our decisions and our choices. And maybe as a group, once a month you just kind of review your group guidelines to remind everyone why they're valuable, why they're there. And then the other thing that comes to mind for me is it's a good opportunity to see why asking questions is so important and how we can use those. Well. So I've found myself saying to a guy, you know, it sounds like your spouse, your wife's doing some really difficult things and. Or she's really in a lot of pain. That's got to be hard. But how could you respond to this differently? Have you thought through what your reactions could be? So to turn their sharing back towards what steps could you take? Because we can't fix your wife, we can't change her, but we can work on you. And then, I mean, the final thing, quite frankly, is usually those are not things they've written down. Yeah, it's a very rare thing that someone wrote out a rant about their spouse. Usually it's very emotionally driven and they're just kind of off the cuff. So, you know, you can gently say, did you write all that down? Why don't we stick to what you wrote so that everyone has time to share? You know, just kind of redirect it that way might be useful also.

Yeah, but I mean, and I think it's really important that the other end is true, that if you don't ever allow someone to vent and share what's going on, that then that can become unsafe as a group too. But just don't let it become a habit. That would be my suggestion.

Yeah. Just when you say venting, I think making sure it's pertinent to what they're discussing, how does it relate to their faster scale or their homework question. Yeah, there's going to be part of that because we're all trying to figure out some of those relational complexities that being married is not easy. And there's part like, oh, when this happens, I get so frustrated and I don't know what to say. And we may even be looking for. I need advice. Like, when my wife is reacting this way, what should I do? Because I don't want to make it worse. And those can be fruitful conversations. Just make sure it's connected to what you're on and not this total rabbit trail that's really not about what the group's on that night.

Definitely. All right, let's move on to the next question. And this is a good one. We've gotten this one quite a bit recently. So the question is, in regards to sexual acts between a husband and a wife, are there any that are considered taboo or I would even say wrong in the eyes of the Lord?

Yeah. You know, what comes to mind for me on this, Trevor, is I think it's the kind of questions we like to ask is we want to know what's right versus wrong. And it maybe scares me just a little bit that what we're looking for is permission to maybe do something or go to our spouse and say, see, this is okay. You should be okay with it. So that's kind of my starting point is to say, in any relationship, just asking what's right or wrong to do probably isn't the right starting point. It's to start out and say, you know, what is going to be mutually edifying? What's going to build one another up? What are we both going to find, makes us feel valued and respected, and where is there mutual enjoyment? And so, to me, that's far more the biblical concept of marriage than just what can I can't do sexually with my spouse? Because the truth is, based on your sexual history, based on your spouse's sexual history or any abuse, or based on what you've brought into the marriage or they've brought into the marriage, what is mutually enjoyable and mutually respectful for you as a couple might be very different than what it is for someone else. So I don't think you really can have just one universal like, okay, this list, or all the things are okay, and here's a list of things that are not okay, because it's really more about where you and your spouse are at. So for a lot of people early on in recovery, there may be a narrower band of sexual things that they feel comfortable doing together that bring that mutual respect and enjoyment versus as trust grows, as that mutuality of we're both in this for one another. And it's safe that list might increase because you both say, yeah, this is healthy for us. So I think that's maybe the starting point. And that's true, you know, whether we're talking about oral sex or sex positions. And if you're looking to learn about those things, you know, there's great Christian books out there that talk through sexual pleasure and enjoyment that we can learn from a healthy point of view, like how to bring that into a relationship. I guess the two cautions that I would just throw out there because I think they're becoming more prevalent in our day and age. And for those that this is not something that ever battled with, this might sound strange to a few of our listeners, but a couple of things that come to mind, you know, number one, I don't think there's ever a way we can justify watching pornography with our spouse as being something that's okay. And even in the church we're hearing that justified more like, oh, well, I'm not doing it for myself or without. It's something we use to increase pleasure. But anytime you're using the explicit sexual content of someone else's lives, even in movie form to create an experience for yourself, you are, you're moving out of the kind of bondedness God wants you to have with your spouse. And so I don't, I don't really think there's any room for that biblically or in a healthy way to bring into a marriage. And the second act that, you know, I would just look at God's design of the human body is to wonder how would anal sex fit into that? I think it'd be very rare for spouses, both spouses, to say, we find this mutually respectful and mutually enjoyable. And God designed our body for that to be an exit only body part. And the health issues that are concerned there. So those are just two parameters I think we could look at and go, I don't see how you can make a case for that biblically, but so much else within the realm of if both spouses feel respected and enjoyment, I think those are conversations you have and have that freedom then to explore sexually because there's good communication and there's trust. So work on those issues and let the experimenting or the new things come as a byproduct of the health that you're building together.

Well, that'd be my only thing I'd add is that communication is so important because maybe something feels safe okay now, but maybe in a couple months you start to not feel Safe and you feel like this isn't something we can do, that I feel valued or treasured through this. And so communication and being honest is so important and so understand that the dynamic can go either way, that maybe something isn't safe now that eventually could be just with honest conversation. But then also the opposite is true, that maybe something you've been doing now can become something that doesn't make someone feel valued or treasured or safe. And so just understand that what's okay now, maybe that's not going to be true in a couple months, maybe not true tomorrow. So just be hold it open handed in that sense.

Yeah, I agree with that. And I would just encourage, you know, what Paul said in First Corinthians, chapter 6, where people were saying, oh, everything's permissible for me. And some of our listeners might be hearing the kind of teaching we do here in church says, oh, the marriage bed is undefiled and as long as it's within a marriage, anything goes like, well, it might be permissible, but is it beneficial? Is it building us, is it strengthening us? And you're only going to know that through communication. And you're right, it does change over time. And I think it invites us really to look into why do I want to do this? And that may be where some listeners are at, is they're asking the question because there's something they want in the marriage and is the reason they want it because it's something that fuels their maybe old patterns, it fuels lust or just their own enjoyment. And that's something in marriage I think we're called to die to that we die to ourselves so that we might live for the other and to look at, well, if there's a right way to communicate that and tell my spouse, here's something I think I would enjoy but when it becomes about just getting what I want, that's a level of selfishness we have to just humbly guard against in the marriage. So that can be a difficult area for sure. Wanting what we want, how do we communicate it? But I think if we really look at what's mutually beneficial, that's going to help us go a long ways to a satisfying life of our sexual intimacy for sure. All right, well, that might be a little bit of an intense one. So let's go back to a group question. Trevor, what would you recommend about this? How often should a group leader be in contact with their regional group leader for any kind of coaching or direction?

Yeah. So regional group leaders are volunteer positions that oversee different regions of all these groups. And so you're going to have availability of this, of this person in your area. And we'll make sure to have the list of our RGLs in the show notes. I think for me, my experience was I called and it was Rich who's here on staff with us. I called him maybe two or three times a month and it was something and maybe that's too much. He never told me, but I felt like it was something that when something arose in group that I was. Wasn't really prepared for, didn't know how to handle, maybe it was a question on, you know, I'm having this group member who's having this issue or you know, one of my female group members is having this issue and I'm not sure how to address it, being the group leader. And so I think for me, honestly just a table mark would be one to two times a month. Just even to touch base. Maybe it's asking questions, but maybe it's also just getting encouragement. I think definitely having someone who can speak into your ministry, speak into your group time and help you become a better leader and facilitator for these groups. I don't think you're ever going to go wrong. So I would say one to two times a month is a good benchmark for me.

Yeah, I think of seasons where you want to just touch base that as new groups are starting, whether it's your own group or maybe other groups in the church, just say hey, wanted to, you know, let you know, here's kind of where we're at. Or maybe you're getting near to some groups finishing because that does help a regional group leader. Just stay aware of what you're at, what kind of help you might need and hopefully the regional group leader is also reaching out to you to just set up. I know a lot of our regional group leaders are starting to do monthly phone calls or kind of hangout or Skype video sessions where people can just come in and have like this, a frequently asked question time and kind of learn and grow together. So if that hasn't been happening, you might reach out to regional group leader and say, hey, if we started this, I'd love to be a part of it because I need that input. So keep in mind, you know, these are volunteers and they may be doing what they can and not realize maybe there is some interest out there in that monthly kind of call approach. So we try to just remind people, make sure it's a two way street. Don't just sit around and wait for Your regional group leader to reach out to you. But at the same time, hopefully there are times where they're reaching out to you. So we want both parties to feel like they're involved in the relationship.

Definitely. Okay, so the next question is one that we've been getting a lot recently, too, as more and more people who are not married are coming to our events, are jumping into groups, and really this is such an important group of people to have getting sexually healthy. We get this question a lot. So the question is, when is it healthy to disclose in a dating relationship?

Yeah, you know, I think if you know you're on a dating website, you just put that on your profile, list out your full sexual history, then you'll be good to go.

Morphy addiction, Sex addiction, Love addiction.

There's my arousal template. Yeah, don't do that. Please don't do that. No. Hopefully people are hearing the tongue in cheek response to that. There, I think, are a lot of maybe different ways to approach this because it can have a lot to do. A season of life. So when we talk to people that, you know, this has wrecked a marriage for them and they're maybe in their 40s or, you know, they've kind of been through the relationship thing, I'll hear more from them. Like, I don't want to waste time. I would kind of like to know up front, just where are you at with these topics and what have you done? And so I think if you're looking at a second or third marriage in that kind of dating, you might expect we're just not going to beat around the bush. We're going to be honest about what's going on in our life, and it might come sooner. But I think often it's asked by younger people and by men and women that are in their late teens or early 20s, and they're trying to figure out, like, I want to be a person of integrity. I don't want to have secrets, But I also don't want to unnecessarily wound someone or bring up all this stuff that they're not ready for. So, yeah, I think our kind of guidance, we say the first or second date is probably too soon, but on the other hand, the wedding night is too late. Correct. You don't want someone to have to find out when they've already committed and then feel like they get blindsided by something. So my general rule of thumb is if a young couple sees that this is headed towards a pretty serious place, that that this is the kind of person and the kind of Relationship I could see being until death do us part kind of commitment. Then I need to look for opportunities to begin opening up about that story. And maybe based on the person's receptivity, you know, how far you're gonna be able to take that conversation that, you know, if you open up that door to say, you know, I've struggled with pornography and they run away and never call you again, it's probably good that you didn't try to share your whole story, versus if you've had some conversations, say, hey, we need to be real about this. I think then you look to dive into that. And again, I would give the same kind of encouragement, though, to someone dating that we give to people in marriage that are sharing their full disclosure. I would encourage you not to share that until you've written down some things and you've shared it with others of the same gender who can read through your story and say, ooh, this is a lot more than you need as a dating couple. Or have you answered this question? Because if someone else has just coached you up a little bit, it can make that conversation go a whole lot better.

Yeah, I think that if we're talking about disclosing in the sense of telling them that you struggle, that's different than giving the full disclosure, for sure. I think that it's unfair to surprise a boyfriend or girlfriend at any point with, hey, guess what? This is something I struggle with. And if it ever is something that you are exposed and you didn't come forward initially and tell that person, it's gonna go a lot worse. And this. I'm gonna use this opportunity just to plug being in a group, because I think that if you're in a group and you're actively working on your recovery, this conversation is gonna go a whole lot different than if you're not. If you're saying, you know, this is something I struggle with, I don't really know how I'm doing. I don't really know how to get rid of it. But this is just what it is. That conversation is going to go differently than this is something I'm struggling with. But I'm actively working on it right now, and I'm finding some freedom and some fruit from all the work that I'm doing. That conversation is going to be just naturally received better. But then also understand that just because you're dating somebody and you have this issue doesn't mean they're always going to respond well. And to understand that that doesn't make you a worse person, but that just Use that as an encouragement to just continue getting healthy, because your health is really going to benefit a lot of people.

Yeah. And, you know, I think about this conversation in the dating relationship a little bit like what we said with parents and their kids, that with parents and kids, you don't want to just have one great birds and the bees conversation of introducing your kids to sexual things and then be like, whoo, glad we got that over. I'm never going to talk about that again.

That'd be nice, right?

And honestly, that's a lot of people's experience. Well, dad sat me down and talked me through what sex was, and we never talked about it again. And in dating, if that's your approach, like, okay, I shared all my stuff and whoo, close that door. That's not really the environment you're trying to create. If you're opening up about this in a dating relationship, my hope for you is that what you're creating is the kind of relationship where you can be open about your lives, where there's intimacy that comes from being fully known and fully loved. And you just have that kind of relationship that we don't have to hide from one another. We're able to be real and open. So that's what you're trying to create. Not just, you know, open the door and see if they stay. It's more, let's create a relationship built on truth and on trust.

Yeah, absolutely. That's good.

All right, well, last question here, Trevor, for this podcast, and again, for those of you that enjoy these FAQs, we'd love to have you send in some of your questions or maybe today's episode prompts follow up questions like, yeah, but what about. You know, send in those what abouts. But for today, Trevor, end us with this one. When someone has been in a pure desire group for a while and they want to take a break, what should that break look like in regards to contact with others, accountability and continued sexual integrity?

Yeah, this is a good question because I've had this in my life too. And in my story where group ended for the first time and you feel like you just kind of need a break. You've done a lot of stuff and maybe you've been through group multiple times. It's not an easy or simple or short process to go through group. And so I think that one of the things that, and I've heard a lot of people encourage me to do this is to just continue using the faster scale. And if you can rope your spouse into that, where you're Sharing it and sharing it together, where you're aware of where you guys are at throughout the week and having those conversations. But then also, I think there's no reason not to keep calling group members. So even if you're not meeting every week, like, at that. So for me, going through seven pillars, that's nine, 10 months that I've spent with these guys. These guys are now my best friends. And so I'm gonna want to call them and I'm gonna want to see them, because I'm used to seeing them every single week for almost a year. So why not just reach out, like, go get coffee, go to lunch, go golfing, go, you know, get a mani, pedi, do whatever you gotta do, but spend time with them, whether it's on the phone or in person. I don't think you're ever going to regret doing that. And then another thing, just practically, is like continuing to do the sword drill or doing devotionals like that, where you're consistently interacting with scripture, I think is really like, you can't minimize the effect of prayer and of reading God's word. So I think it's really, really important just to continue flooding your system with who God says you are and who he is and your relationship together. I don't think you'll ever go wrong with that either.

Well, yeah, I think in addition to that, maybe just keeping in mind that there are some tools introduced in the group that are really meant to be with you for the rest of your life, not to be something you stop doing. So that three circles, exercise of here's where I've agreed in my life, I don't go. That's a relapse. Here are the guardrails that I keep in place, and here are the healthy things that I do that maintain that sense of freedom and joy and contentedness. So reviewing that regularly, maybe with an accountability friend or your spouse, to just say, this is the way I'm choosing to live my life, that'll really make a big difference. You mentioned the faster scale. The third one that comes to mind for me is having that real clear plan of escape that says if I find myself heading back to a place I don't want to go, I better know what are four steps I take. Who can I call? What do I do? Where do I escape to in a healthy way? Because if you've got that firmly in place, that can really sustain you when you really get into a low place. And we do kind of give a rule of thumb to groups like when I'm Wrapping up a group and guys are trying to decide what to do next, I'll say if you haven't been able to establish at least six months of sobriety, and by that we mean no masturbation or pornography, no relapse. How they define relapse. If you're not at that mark yet, you need to stay in some kind of regular group experience because you are still in the process of getting free. And to just walk away and think, oh, I think I can handle it, is probably an unwise decision. And if going through again is daunting, we look at using the genesis process, process as a different workbook to bring in or looking at how could you maybe take some roles in helping co facilitate to co lead a group? Because as you think about helping others, and even if you've only got a couple of months of sobriety, but that's where you've got a leader over you that's got a little maturity and you're just taking some steps. When you make that transition from just focusing on yourself to focusing on how to help others, it's amazing how the material can come alive again. So that would be another suggestion. And then just the last thing I'd say about it, more on the side of maybe consider staying in group, is if you've only gone through the material one time, I can't tell you how many guys have told me, the second time through, it's like a whole new workbook. It's like a whole new experience.

Have I done this before?

Yeah, because the first time through tends to be so much about navigating my own behavior, how to just stop it to get out of the problematic cycles I'm in. And the second time through really becomes that deeper dive into the why do I do what I do? What's really going on underneath? How is it impacting others? So I would just encourage you it's going to be a different kind of experience the second time through. Now, if you've gone through multiple times and you think there's health, then the other advice we gave, I think comes to bear on that.

Well, and just understand that just because group ended doesn't mean your addiction has ended, doesn't mean that it's not still there. The triggers are still there, the temptations are still there. And we have an active adversary who's also still trying to trip us up as much as he can can. So to take your armor off and take a break and go run in the field seems a little foolish. So just to make sure that you're aware of where you're at and understand that addiction doesn't stop. You have to keep moving forward if you want to stay sexually healthy.

Yep. Yep. Absolutely.

All right. We did it. Just the two of us. We didn't even have a guest. We carried the whole episode.

It's just amazing, even on a Monday afternoon.

That's great. Well, we were chatty. This is one of the longer ones. So we love these episodes just because we feel like we're able to cover a lot of different types of topics. We learn a lot from these episodes. I know I personally do. And we desire really to learn a lot more from your questions and to really answer those. So if you want to submit your questions for future FAQ episodes, there's a couple ways you can do that. You can email your questions to infouredesire.org that's infouredesire.org just use the subject line PD podcast. The other one is you can post your question on on social media using the hashtag pdfaq. Again, that's pdfaq. So we'd love to get those questions. If you do have questions and don't want to send them to us, send them to Joseph B. And have him send them to us because he is awesome.

He's on top of it.

So, Nick, thanks for chatting, man. Appreciate it.

Yeah, great. Great to be here.

And thank you for listening to the Pure Desire Podcast. If you like what you're hearing and want to keep up with the podcast, please subscribe. You can also rate and review our podcast and let us know know how we're doing. For more information, check out our website, PureDesire.org and you can follow us on social media. EaredesirePDMI. Once again, that's EaredesirePDMI. We'll see you next time. Thanks for listening to the Pure Desire Podcast. For more information, check out our website, www.puredesire.org. check in each week for new content on the podcast, and we pray that it will help you find hope and free freedom on your journey to purity.