073 - Help! I Don't Have My Church's Support

Welcome to the Pure Desire podcast, where we partner with you to bring hope and freedom on your journey to purity. Hey there. I'm your host, Trevor Windsor, and we're so thankful you're taking time out of your day to hang out with us. I'm here with my co host, as always, Nick Stumbo.

Aloha.

Hawaii.

Were you waiting for more?

That was it.

Yeah. You know, it surprises me that we're on, what, episode 73 of these. And, you know, we just had a number of listeners send in all of my intros, and that one was not in the first 60, which you would think that'd be like, a go to early on, but no, I hadn't. Hadn't used it, so I had to just pull in a classic one.

Okay. So I've never been to Hawaii. I feel like it's important to say that publicly. And so when you say that word, all I think is Moana.

That's.

That's really all I go to. Or Johnny Tsunami for anybody out there who used to watch Disney Channel. Anyways, we're gonna move on. So with us today is the big guy, Rich Moore. Rich is our international groups coordinator for men's groups. Rich, welcome back.

Hey, great to be here. You know, I actually found a quote regarding groups from the great Papa Bear, George, Alice.

Okay.

Papa Bear says, don't do anything in practice that you wouldn't do in a game.

Huh?

That's good.

Go Bears.

That's good. There are things I do in practice for the podcast that I don't do when we're actually recording. Is that. Does that qualify? You know what? I'm just tripping everybody up. We're just gonna keep moving forward. Okay. Today we're.

You know, I'm not certain that was a group's quote. I think that was a ploy by Rich to work the Chicago Bears into this podcast because of how well they're playing. Course, by the time this episode airs, they could be, you know, out of the playoffs or who knows?

But, well, seeing as this is gonna air pretty soon, they're playing pretty well, and they beat one Nick Stumbos, Minnesota Vikings, very recently. So. But as I can tell by the look on Nick's face, we're not gonna talk about it. So today we're gonna spend time talking about something else. We're gonna talk about the situation that many people find themselves in, and it's when they want to start groups in their church, but their church isn't on board. So this situation can be really tough for a lot of people listen. We hear stories all the time where this is going on. So today's episode will be focused on what you can do if you do find yourself in this tough situation. So, Rich, you ready to jump in?

Yep.

Cool. So as we start out, let's talk about this part. What are the reasons? And again, you take a lot of phone calls, a lot of conversations regarding this stuff. What are the reasons that church leadership usually gives when they don't support groups for sexual integrity?

I think the biggest one is not that they. They don't support groups in general, but the biggest thing is that they really don't have the bandwidth. You know, they have cr. They have all this other stuff going on. It just doesn't fit their model and how they run groups at the church. So when a pastor, you know, when somebody goes to him and wants to, hey, we want to start groups, the pastor is kind of sometimes kind of taken back because he's like, okay, well, how are we gonna do that? I can't do it because I'm doing this, this, and this. So there's. It really comes down to bandwidth, and it just doesn't fit the program on what they've got going on. Now, there's some other things, but those are two pretty common ones that we have that I hear of most of the time.

Yeah. You know, if you look at some of the research that came out, the George Barna Institute put out the porn phenomenon, which was commissioned by the Josh McDowell group. And that study found that 57% of pastors and 64% of youth pastors acknowled either having a current struggle with pornography or one in the past. And the reality is, if the numbers are that high, if that pastor hasn't processed their brokenness and been willing to process it even in a little bit of a public way where people are aware of that, it can be a fearful place for them to go to, even if that struggle maybe is in their rearview mirror and they're doing much better. It can feel uncomfortable to know, well, how am I going to bring this into my church if they don't really know my history? And I'm not comfortable sharing that. And so that's one of the reasons, you know, for us at Pure Desire, we work really hard to create a safe place where pastors can deal with their stuff, can find hope, can find healing, can find freedom, so that they can lead their congregations into transformation. Because we know that a transformed leader is much more likely to help create a transformed congregation. Now, I would just add to that having said that, we don't want to assume that just because a church isn't starting it, that there's an issue in the pastor's life that's exactly that. That's unfair to your pastor or your leader. So, you know, please don't assume that. We just want to be aware. That could be an issue. But some other things I've seen is they feel like, well, this just isn't that big of a problem here. There can be a little bit of a happy ignorance of, oh, that's not that bad here, and we've heard that before. And then we'll come in and be allowed to survey the men and we find out, oh, yeah, it is here. And in fact, it's above the percentages that we find on average. Or also, I think there can just be some fear about, boy, if we start talking about this issue, what's going to come up? You know, what will the older generation say that doesn't want us talking about it? And so just to kind of keep the peace, they outsource that are like, well, there's other places they can deal with that and it's easier not to deal with it. So those are just a few of the other things I've seen and heard as we try to come alongside churches.

Well, another thing too, that, like, you know, thinking back to my experience as a youth pastor, if someone came to me and said, hey, we should do this program, you know, because I agree with everything you guys are saying, but if I don't know about that stuff, that then I have to then do the extra work to educate myself. And I'm busy. I work full time in ministry. I don't have time to spend a lot of time researching stuff outside of maybe scripture or some of the stuff that our church is going through. And so I think that sometimes not having an education in that makes us feel like we have to do a lot of work up front in order to really create space for these groups or to equip people. So that's just something that I even experienced in my own ministry.

Yeah, if someone comes to you and says this thing needs to be a really big deal and you don't understand it, it's like, well, maybe it should be. It's like if someone came to me and said, we need to address the problem of carpal tunnel syndrome in our church, it is wrecking lives. And I'm like, maybe it is. I don't know. I have no idea what you're talking about. I don't understand the problem. And so it's kind of going to be your thing. And I think that's what happens in a lot of churches is we've got passion, we've been in a group or we've experienced healing. And so we're coming to a staff member like, man, you need to do this. And they're like, why? I don't even really understand the problem. And so maybe we're jumping too far ahead. We're trying to get them to launch a whole ministry when we just maybe need to say, could we have coffee? Could we talk about the problem? Yeah. Now I think I'm jumping ahead to the next question. So let me get into that. Unless you guys have anything else.

No, let's do it.

Okay. So we do recognize that this is a difficult situation because maybe we're seeing the need or we've been in a group and we want to see it happen in our church. So if someone approaches their church leadership, Rich, and they don't get that, you know, immediate support that they were looking for or hoping for, what do you think is the best way to respond? What are ways that you can educate your church on why these groups are necessary? Even if initially you maybe get kind of a no. Or that they don't seem very interested.

Yeah, I was going to say that the biggest piece is that education piece. I usually tell these guys when they call in, hey, have you seen the Conquer series? Most of them have. Do you know if the pastor has seen the Conquer series? If not, just. Just show them the trailer and just. It's like planting the seed. Just get it in front of them to where they're like, oh, okay. And then almost to kind of piggyback that, you know, from the last question is there's sometimes the pastor doesn't know that there's that many people struggling. Well, obviously there this guy has come to the pastor wanting to start groups.

Right.

Because other men have talked to him. They just haven't gone to the pastor because the fear of start of getting that. So. But I think putting something in front of the pastor, which would be the Conquer series trailer, and then if he still has questions, then say, hey, Rich or Ashley would. Would be more than welcome or be more than willing to have a conversation with you to explain the ministry in depth.

You know, another thing too, I think, especially if you've gone through group or experienced any healing, is telling your story. Like, so here's my experience in group, sharing that from a. From a personal standpoint, just because I think that if you're like, hey, I have all these people who keep telling me their story. Not that he, you know, he or she may not believe you, but it just is gonna mean more if it's coming from your own experience. And so if you have some traction there, I would just say, hey, can I, can I sit down with you and just tell you my story and don't put any contingencies on it. Like, I'll only tell you if you, you know, allow groups to go afterwards, but just be vulnerable and go first in that and invite really, then you're inviting your leadership into the process you've gone through. And then at that point, maybe you have a little bit more rapport to talk about groups.

Yeah, I think that awareness piece is so huge of making sure staff are aware of some of the stats that are out there or aware of the help that is available through pure desire to be aware of the good that can come of it and not just assume that the staff knows that already. But the other thing, I'd bring up, you know, staff members at church, and I was one for 15 years, they're human beings. And when you bring up an idea, it immediately falls into the category of do I have time for this? Do I have energy for this? And I would remember as a pastor, I'm thinking through, I don't have another night of the week to be a part of this. I don't have time to start this. And they may be processing it more from that personal place. And you could help them by saying, I'm not asking you to create something. I'm not even asking you to lead the groups. I'm just asking for your help to create space in our church, to create a culture where this could be addressed and helping them see that these are not staff heavy groups or it's not a staff heavy ministry, that it's really something that can be led by motivated, equipped volunteers that are experiencing healing in their own life. And I think if a staff can see that, that they can see, oh, they don't need two hours of my time every week. They just, they need my blessing. They need a little bit of my, you know, maybe my oversight for their groups or encouragement to keep them on track. Well, then as a staff member, I'm like, well, I can do this. I want to empower people for healing and change. So let's go for it. So if you haven't had that kind of a conversation with a staff member, make sure it's clear you're not putting it on their shoulders. Because I know when I felt that as a pastor, that someone had a big problem, like, pastor, we need to do something about biblical illiteracy. And they'd plop on my desk like, here's how we're going to get everyone reading the Bible. And it was clear that I was going to be the one that had to lead this plan. It was like, yeah, that's good. I'm glad you're passionate about it, and I do think it's important, but it's simply not on my radar right now. I don't have time. And so you might be getting a no because a staff member feels that way. So just try to address some of that and help them see they don't need to personally lead the whole thing.

Yeah. So, Rich, if someone finds themselves in this situation, it definitely is. It's easy to think, okay, well, now I can't lead a group. There's no way I can move forward with this. But do you really need a church's support in order to lead a group? And can we still lead even if we don't have that support from our church?

The first thing is we really want groups in the church. Unfortunately, that doesn't always happen, but that doesn't disqualify somebody from leading a group. Now, for groups on our website, groups that, you know, that there. We want to make sure that those groups are in the. On have church support. But if you have somebody. And not only that, we have groups in the middle of nowhere where there's literally no churches or whatever, where guys are meeting and they're just going through the material. So if a guy has a heart to open up his house, to take other guys through the seven pillars or the, the ladies through the women's material, you know, the healing is going to take place. Place wherever you have group. It's just always nice to have that support from the, from the local church. Unfortunately, it doesn't always happen, but we still work with those groups and help them and support them as much as we can.

Yeah. And another option that can be considered, you know, I, I know we see this here in our area, where if, if one church doesn't have groups, but a man or woman's been attending groups at another church, they might be leading groups at that other church.

Correct.

And they're staying. They're still saying, my church, that's where I'm committed to. That's where God's called me to go. But this ministry is changing my life and I want to help others. And so for this group, for this ministry, I'M a part of what's happening over here at this church, and that's an okay place to operate. And I think you just want to be clear to communicate to your church, hey, I'm not going anywhere. I'm just feeling called to this. And so midweek or on my Wednesday nights, I'm over there helping lead groups. So be aware of that option that if your church isn't ready for whatever reason, maybe there's another church in town that is running groups, and if you approach them and say, hey, I've been through the material, I'd love to help lead, that they'd work with you. So I think as much as possible, Rich is saying we want to have that protection over us spiritually, legally, where we have someone else to appeal to for help or for guidance. But there are those situations where you've got four guys without any groups anywhere, but they want to meet weekly. It can happen, and we'll support you. We just want to have you think about that's a little bit of precarious position if something comes up in group along legal lines or that you weren't anticipating. There's. There's really no one else to appeal to as your kind of your spiritual oversight. So as much as you can, try to operate within a church. But as you're saying, Rich, we'd rather people get help and dive into group, even if the situation isn't ideal.

Yeah. And then also, too, you know, a lot of times that initial. I don't want to say pushback, but the initial response from the church is one. Like you said just a little bit ago, you know, boy, how am I going to put that much time? What's it going to cost me to put that much time from a pastor? How much time do I have? How much bandwidth do we have as a staff? Well, what we find is an example where I lead groups. We've had, like you said, we've had so many guys lead groups there from different churches, and then their home church starts hearing about the great things that have been happening from talking to that leader. And, you know, maybe it's a year, two years down the road, and then at that time, now we've had this guy leading a group that doesn't go to our church, but now he's just went to his church, and the pastor says, yeah, I'm on board now. So it could just be a timing thing. So if it is a timing thing, you know, not to give up, just to continue to have that open conversation with. With your pastor, your Staff and say, hey, this is what we're doing. Like you said, just have that clear line of communication. Hey, I'm still involved in the church, but I'm over here and I would love to get it in our church soon. Happens all the time.

Well, it just seems like it's establishing a track record of success that then you have the resume you can basically bring back and say, look like this has been working. This is what's been going on.

Yeah. So we've already been discussing this a little bit, Rich, but let's talk a little bit more about other options that might be out there. So if a person finds that they can't start groups in their own church, what are some other things they could pursue maybe while they're waiting or praying for that open door at their church?

That's a good question. So if there's nothing available, they literally, they cannot find anything. You know, trying to get connected with an online group if there's space available, I mean, that's, that's, that's an option.

Well, and that's a growing need that we see at Pure Desire because we do have people that call from, you know, you know, Timbuktu, Missouri, and there is nothing within a three hour drive. And they're looking for an online group. And one of the big challenges we have is an online leader. So if you're listening to this and you've been trained and equipped and you're looking to help others, but your church is right now, you know, giving you the stiff arms for whatever reason, they're not ready. And there doesn't appear to be any other church to help with if you'd say. But I'd be happy to lead five other guys from around the country that have no access to groups. I mean, it's, it's a pretty cool thing how God can use you. And you know, we'd provide that. Yeah, we'd provide you some direction and some guidance there. So let us know.

Yeah, there's, there's a huge need for online groups because we see just because of this, of a church not wanting to support the groups. Not that they don't want to, they just can at this time. But there's so many guys. We send this wait list letter out daily, actually all day long.

Yeah.

For guys looking to get connected, men and women. So it's, there's such a need for more, for more leaders. And because of that of not having groups in the local churches in some areas, it doesn't disqualify them from being a Group leader if they've had some victory in this area.

No. And I think too, you know, for me, I had the support when I first started groups, but just. Even at the most practical level, I just picked guys I knew who would be consistent through the group. So when we started the Conquer series, it was originally that six weeks. And, you know, it's like, hey, can you just stick with me for six weeks and try this out? And if you got to do it in your house or you got to, like, rent a room or you got to, like, like go to a coffee, I mean, don't go to a coffee shop. It's a bad idea. But, like, if you got to do it somewhere other than the church, and you just gotta pick maybe two or three friends that, you know, have. Have struggled or are currently struggling with this just to go through it, even. Just so you can start that group experience and start to really figure out what this looks like. That'll give you a whole lot more, really language to be able to explain it to your pastor. You'll get better at inviting people into it. And so I think that even if you don't have the support and even if you don't have other churches, even if you're just like, hey, let's just buy this thing. Let's sit together in my house for six weeks and watch this and just see what happens. I don't think that that's a terrible approach to get started.

Yeah. Kind of to add on to this too. You know, I think when the initial reaction from the pastor sometimes gets the group leaders, they're just kind of defeated a little bit. But what's great about our regional group advisors is when I'm working with a pastor about groups and talking them, if they're calling me and asking questions, or I even tell a potential leader that's wanting to start in the church, I always let them know that this isn't something that the pastor has to have, like, total control of. You know, he doesn't have to put a lot of effort into it. You know, hey, let's support the ministry. You guys can meet here on a Tuesday night, you know, whatever you need from me. But our regional advisors, along with Ashley and myself, our job is to really support and train those group leaders. So it takes a lot of pressure off of the staff.

Yeah. And you mentioned the RGAs. And just for anybody who's listening, who doesn't know that we're talking about rgls regional group leaders that we recently have just changed the name just so you Guys know RGA is equals rgl, okay? So regional group advisors.

So when I was a kid, RGA was a grocery store. That's a Midwest chain. But anyway, one other thing I was just thinking about along these lines. It's in the book of Ezra where the prophet says, do not despise small beginnings. And they're in that book talking about the new temple, which was much smaller than the original. So some of the elders were weeping about its size. The Lord was saying, don't despise, because this is the seed or this is the starting point of great things. And. And what I think about was my college experience where I met with a couple of friends weekly for prayer and for accountability. We didn't really know what we were doing or how to help each other, so none of us found freedom in that group. But if we'd have had these tools then, and we'd have just sat down and once a week said, hey, what are you learning? What'd you read this week? And the chapter we're going through. And I think in many, many churches, you might be connected to one other person that you know. They said, hey, anytime you want to meet or let's talk. And maybe they've even said, this is me, too. It's my issue. Also, why not just get the material and you and that friend, and it might be a coffee shop all but you need to find a quiet corner, so you feel free to be open. But somewhere you just say, once a week, you and I are. We're going to check in. What are we learning? Answer the questions with each other. That's the small beginnings that might produce fruit, because as the two of you find some traction in your healing, you start to understand the material. Then maybe that two turns into four, and that group gets larger and multiplies, and it's kind of an organic beginning. We see in many churches that maybe initially the church isn't interested, but when lives start changing and groups that are kind of happening on the side really begin to pop with life and energy, that can cause a staff to go, wait, wait a minute. What's going on over here? We need to get behind this, because we're starting to hear the stories of change, and so God can use that. So if you're feeling discouraged because it's just you, but you do know of one other person that said, hey, I'd love to do something too. Start, find a place, pick a time, and go for it.

Yeah, okay. So, Rich, you kind of mentioned this a little earlier, that there are churches that have celebrate recovery or maybe are involved with essay or different structures or different group formats. If a church is already running those types of groups, but they want to implement pure desire resources and material. Is that something that we're cool with? How do we feel about that?

Well, the toughest part is it doesn't fit CRSA their group structure just because, see, I mean CR and SA are great for what they do. I mean there's nothing wrong. They help a lot of men and women, so they're great. But pure desire groups are really its own group. You know, it's a full, full commitment, two hours. And it's hard because. And the reason I say it's its own entity, so to speak, is it's hard to put that into a CR group where they have the big gathering, then they break out in a half hour. Towards the end you can, you cannot do group in a half hour or 45 minutes. Yeah. So you need a full two hours for that process. Now, now here's the great thing about those other two groups is say they're on a Thursday night. Well, if men and women know that they have an issue, well, let's do a group, a pure desire group on a Tuesday night. So now they're getting support two different nights of the week and working on the same issue. It's just going to look a little bit different. But now they have a two hour commitment, nothing but the pure desire material.

It's definitely an area I think we want to come across with humility and grace and not treat anything else as being unworthy. Like, oh, that doesn't work, that's pointless. We got to do this because that really can close the door to the conversation. And so we try to be supportive of those things because any step a church is taking towards dealing with brokenness is a good step. But on the other hand, I'll try to find ways just to in kindness ask, is that effective? Do you see it working for men and women in your church? Are they finding freedom? And if so, well, great, let's do more of that. And then maybe you're looking at more, hey, along the way, could we do this group as well? Kind of in addition to that versus I think sometimes a staff will say, well, we don't know, it's really the only option we have. Or well, that essay group isn't actually even in our church. It meets at the community center. It's not even really theirs. And so you start to find maybe some possibilities saying, well, here's why we might consider these groups or Celebrate Recovery. Like at the church I attend, several of the guys in my group go to both. Just like you said, Rich. They love kind of that large group community of Celebrate Recovery. There's the meal, there's the worship, there's a teaching. So it's almost like church for recovery, church for addicts. But there's not the level of depth in the small group time. And even Celebrate Recovery in its material says if someone's working through an addiction that you need to go to a change group or something in addition to the large group gathering. So we've seen in a number of churches, rather than it being a 12 step plan, they're like, oh, for sexual integrity, we use pure desire for that. And that meets on a separate night. And that's a part of Celebrate Recovery's materials because I know CR doesn't want you to deviate from their plan. But you can do that. You can run their exact plan for your group night, but then have these supplemental groups that you offer for those coming out of addiction. And in many churches that those supplemental groups are pure desire. Okay, so Rich, we're talking about the challenges of trying to start groups when you don't have your church's support. And so if someone finds themself in this place, what kind of materials or resources do we have that might help them in that season?

The Conquer series is a great first step. Even if you don't have a group and can't start it. I have so many guys call it or call in and just purchase it just so they can view it. So it's a great first step. Then the stories for men or the stories for women, we have a lot. I always tell these men and women that are calling in if there's just nothing available. How do they get started? I always tell them to make sure they get the kits. Order the Conqueror series, you know, stories for women, study stories for men, study and the leaders guides too. Because if they're wanting to bring this to the church at that, like I said earlier in that season, when it's the next step, when they are able to move forward now, they can go to the pastor and have they've understood the leader's guide, they've got all this information and then they can go basically in a sense sell a product to their pastor and say, hey, this is the whole ministry laid out in front of you.

Yeah, a couple other things too. Just on kind of a support side, you've got the Rich and Ashley and you guys are the international group coordinators. And you guys answer questions all day long about this sort of stuff. And you've had these conversations. I mean, obviously listening to this episode, you're going to get. You've had a few of these. So you could call them. We'll make sure their contact information is on this, on the show notes, and then also the regional group advisors. I mean, if you think about it, there's going to be a percentage of them who've experienced this in the. Their group experience. So to be. Yeah. So we'll make sure that we have a link on there as well for. For any of those around the country, if you want to. But then even a little bit more practical, we have podcast episodes on this stuff, we have blogs on this stuff. And so just be looking out for those. And we can attach some of those in the show notes as well. But there's also a developing a PD ministry infographic that we have on our Tools page, which literally walks through what this process would look like. And so you can just use that as a roadmap, if you will, or an encouragement of what you'd like to build up to take everything we've talked about thus far if you are in this situation and really just try to. Just try to start. Just start your healing. Try to start getting other people roped into this healing as well. And then just know that we've got a roadmap. We have got a lot of experience over the last few decades on how to do this available to you.

Well, and something else we see working is when group leaders or someone who's really passionate about the ministry is able to bring their pastor to a Pure Desire conference. Because in that conference, they're going to hear about how to create this, how to deal with it in the church, how to start groups. They'll be able to ask a lot of their questions. And we've had a number of pastors come to those events that have said, you know, I get it. I didn't necessarily understand how this all fit. But now I'm seeing the value this could have in our church and what it looks like. And so that may be an area of risk for you. If as a listener, you're in this place to go to your pastor and say, hey, I'm willing to buy your ticket. If you'll come with me, I'll cover the cost because I want you to be exposed to what we could do here and just trust that that opportunity might give them the time to answer their questions and be ready to move forward after that.

Yeah. Because then you're Allowing the experts to educate rather than yourself. It's almost like less pressure on yourself if you can do that, because you don't have to be the one who's convinc. So that's a good idea, Nick. So, man, this is just not a fun situation. Honestly, as I'm, like, listening to you guys and we're in this conversation, I'm happy this wasn't my experience because I can just see how difficult it can be. So for anybody out there who's in this situation, who's in this spot, who maybe is feeling really down and discouraged and really feels like they're running up against a wall, what sort of encouragement would you guys have for those people?

Yeah, the biggest one, I was just thinking as I was reading this, most of us, if not all of us, that have been in this process, we have a fear of rejection and being told no to do something. So when we approach a pastor, just. Just realize that it just may not be the season for that group at that church. And don't take it as defeat, because when we step up and we want to start leading groups and we want to start helping others go through and experience what we've experienced, the target on our back gets a little bigger and the enemy tries to defeat us in any way. And that's one way of saying, well, the church isn't ready doesn't mean that they're not ready just. Just for that season and they're not ready and to not give up. You know, like Nick said earlier, you know, if you're meeting with one individual in a coffee shop, you know, that's how it starts. And I always tell guys, you know, they're really worried about getting numbers and, you know, for it to be successful. And I always tell them, hey, if you have one guy show up that's successful because you're starting with one. And so not to be discouraged by a. No.

Yeah. Two things that come to mind for me. One, I think about people that might be listening to this podcast, and the reason they want to start groups at their church is because they need one for themselves. They haven't actually been in one yet. They're just hoping their church will do it. I guess I'd remind that person that there are a lot of things you can pursue. First, be willing to do whatever you need to to get in a group. We've got a number of people, I mean, my story included, where people drive 30, 40, 60 miles once a week to get into a group because they realize it's this important for my healing that I'm going to do whatever it takes to get in that group. Or maybe it means rearranging your schedule so you can make it to that one opening in an online group, or just bringing a little level of desperation to say, it'll be worth it if it leads to some healing in my life. And then if you're willing to do that, the way God can use that to open the door at your church, because now you're not only wanting to start groups, you're able to say, and I can help because I've walked through the material and I'm not perfect, but I can see what we need here. So if that's where you're at, just some encouragement to you. But then the other thing I'd say for everyone is just an encouragement to pray for your pastor and pray for your pastors. Because there are any number of reasons that they might be saying no. And really, this is a spiritual battle. And so there might be a lot of things the enemy's bringing in, whether it's fear or their own story or negative examples from the past that they're thinking of. It might be a spiritual battle that you just need to pray and intercede and continue to wait on the Lord to bring that opening. And whether it's something happening in the pastor's life that they realize the need for it, or they're facing their own brokenness, or they encounter someone else at another church talking about how great pure desire was, and, you know, they come back from a conference and suddenly they're open to it. You're like, six months ago, I was begging for you to do this. Why won't you? There are just so many things involved. And so I just encourage you. Keep praying and interceding and asking the Lord to open that door. And I think in his timing and in his way, God will be faithful to that. So keep praying and watch and see what God does.

Only thing I have to add is just if you get healthy, people are going to see it and they're going to want what you have. So allow it to grow organically. Don't be the one who stands on the pedestal and talks down. Be the one who's walking the road first and allow other people to see that path and want to follow. So, look, bottom line, this is tough, but there's hope a lot. Like, and rich, even as you said it, a lot of our even volunteer group advisors struggled with this, had this problem. But now there are groups in their area. Now there are groups in their church. So there is hope even if your church isn't on board. Leading groups, getting healthy, yourself, yourself, helping others find hope and freedom. It's all still possible. So don't be discouraged if your church isn't on board. Still pursuing healing and advancing this message of getting free from sexual bondage is critical. It's so important for the church. So if you have any follow up questions, you can contact Rich or Ashley Jamison. They're our international group coordinators. Their contact info will be on the show Notes and then we'll also put the regional group advisor contact there too. Rich man, thanks so much for hanging out with us. Appreciate it.

Hey, thanks for having me.

Anything you want to say about the Bears and the Vikings before we get off?

Oh, come on.

Yeah, the schedule looks great in the next four hours.

You know, if we need to pull up the last 10 years, then we could talk about that matchup.

And thank you. Thank you for listening to the Pure Desire Podcast. If you like what you're hearing and want to keep up with the podcast, please subscribe. You can also rate and review our podcast and let us know how we're doing. For more information, check out our website, PureDesire.org and you can follow us on social mediauredesirepdmi. Once again, that's earedesirepdmi. We'll see you next time. Thanks for listening to the Pure Desire Podcast. For more information, check out our website www.puredesire.org. check in each week for new content on the podcast and we pray that it will help you find hope and freedom on your journey to purity.