076 - Dismissing Group Members

Welcome to the Pure Desire podcast, where we partner with you to bring hope and freedom on your journey to purity. Hey there. I'm your host, Trevor Windsor, and we're so thankful you're taking time out of your day to hang out with us. I'm here, as always, with my co host, Nick Stumbo.

Bibbidi bobbidi Boo.

And with us today is our international women's groups coordinator, Ashley Jamison. Thanks for being here, Ashley.

Hello.

I just want everyone to know that I very quickly move past because I don't even know what to make of your intro.

Put it together and what do you got? Bibbidi bobbidi Boo.

Okay, got it.

There's.

Yeah, Disney tunes are, like, now going through my head, and I don't want. I don't want that right now. So we're gonna move on. Our time together today is going to be focused on a topic that isn't awesome, but a topic that does come up every once in a while in group. And the topic is dismissing group members. This is not something that's enjoyable. It's not something that's wanted by anybody involved, but sometimes it's a necessity. We want to talk through this issue. We want to talk about why to dismiss a group member when it's the right call and how to do it. So we're going to lean into Ashley's experience and expertise and then our experience being in groups as well.

The other thing about this podcast is it's a little bit like the recovery action plan, that the more you have it in place and thought through, the less likely you'll need it. Because in creating a recovery action plan, we really think through, well, what are the behaviors and situations I need to avoid, so I don't need this. And as we really talk about dismissing group members, I think that's the hope here that for everyone that really helps us clarify. What does it look like to be a healthy group member and a healthy group so that we don't have to get to that point? And then if we do, I think there'll be some real practical wisdom here that could help someone do that in the best way possible.

Yeah. So actually, let's start with this. If we're trying to help men and women get healthy sexually, why would anyone need to dismiss a group member?

Well, I think what Nick just said there is perfect because from my own experience just starting in leading groups in a. In a bigger church, in the beginning when I was afraid to dismiss anybody and I had that mentality of like, we want to open Door. We just want to be there and go at your pace. It doesn't really work. And it seems kind of not as nice or maybe not as Christian to have to dismiss somebody. But I can guarantee that when you have these rules and standards of what it looks like to participate in group in place, like Nick said, you'll see less need to dismiss anybody. You want to make sure that you keep that group environment safe so that not only the group members who are going consistently know what to expect, know who's there, and know what the environment's going to feel like because they need that safe, predictable space, but also for the person who needs to be dismissed, they're probably not doing something that they need to be doing in order for them to get healthy. And so they're not going to see any change if they're not using the tools and the things they're learning and actually implementing it. And so both for the person and for the group members, you would need to dismiss that person.

Well, we know that for a pure desire group to be effective, it's a high bar of commitment. You know, it's a high level of expectation of how we engage and do the work. And so if someone is simply not engaging at that level, not only is it going to be detrimental to the group, but it could potentially be detrimental to them because they'll think they're working on it. They'll feel like they're doing all the right stuff. But if really they're not, sometimes we have to be willing to call that out and say, this isn't good for you right now because you're not engaging at the level that we know that it will take for change. And so there's going to need to be this time you step away until you're really ready to engage at that level. So it's really about not only the group, but also that person themselves. They may need to kind of see this is what it's going to take. And if I'm not there yet, maybe I'm not ready to be in a group.

Oh, and it is. It's considering the group as a whole. Because if someone is not doing what they're supposed to be doing, then I, as a group member don't feel safe sharing. And that's the one place in my life that I'm supposed to be safe to share this stuff. And so if I've done my homework and put in the time and I'm ready to share some of the stuff that maybe I've never shared with anyone else ever, on the face of the planet, and there's a group member in there who's not doing the work and creates this culture or this atmosphere that it's not safe for me to share because other people aren't investing, then maybe I don't share. And so it really is something that can be super detrimental to a group.

So, Ashley, maybe walk us through a little bit. How would we know when it's the right time or when dismissing a group member really is the right next step to take? What are some of the scenarios or just some of the parameters that you would put in place or help us to see for that?

Well, I would think that if dismissal is the next step, then there's already been some conversations because you at least want to have. I always start with if somebody's being disruptive, and sometimes it's me. If somebody's being disruptive in the group or not doing their work or any of those reasons, why not following the guidelines, basically. So get your guidelines out. If they're not following the guidelines and sticking to those things, then the first step would be to remind the group of their guidelines. I always do that by maybe shooting a text out or call saying, hey, the first 10 minutes of group, we're going to rehash the guidelines and just make sure we're all sticking to those. And we go over that. And then if that doesn't work as a group approach, you can always talk to the person individually and let them know what remind them of the guidelines and that you're seeing these behaviors or actions that are not in alignment with the guidelines and that you really need them to do them, or else, you know, group might not be a good fit for them right now. And then if you've had conversations and the behavior is still going on, then it's dismissal. So I feel like that's kind of the third step as far as dismissing somebody.

Yeah, I mean, I think one of the things too is if I'm looking around the group and I'm seeing the effect that this person has on group members if they're sharing something and maybe a comment is made, and maybe the comment in and of itself isn't bad or isn't out of place, but I just see that there's this feeling, there's this atmosphere around a specific person. And I love what you're saying, Ashley, because I think that the proper first step is definitely to have those conversations to make sure that it's not just something like, well, you screwed up, you're out, we're not Just booting people just to do it. It's really trying to figure out what's best for this person, but also what's best for the group collectively. And so just make. Just paying attention. I think as a group leader, facilitator, you have to pay attention during the group meetings because I think you can catch on to some things and some real unhealth that hopefully you're able to address. And if not, then maybe take this next step.

Well, and this is an area where I've been able to apply some of my learnings from love and logic parenting, because the idea there is that you want kids to see that the consequences of an action are the logical outcome of their own choice, not something you're doing as a parent to punish them or teach them a lesson. And so the same sort of thing in a group scenario, I try to work with someone to see, hey, here's the group guidelines, or we've all committed to doing the homework. We've all committed to confidentiality or to not going off on rabbit trails. And you've done that now a number of times. And that's what, when we follow those guidelines, we say, I want to be in this group. And if we don't follow those, we're essentially communicating. I don't value this group and I don't want to be in it. And so, as we've now talked about that behav behavior a couple of times, I just want to let you know, if this continues to happen, you're making a choice. You're saying to us you really don't want to be in the group. And so if that happens, well, then we're going to follow it to that consequence of needing you to step out of the group. So it's really kind of putting the responsibility on them to see it's not about me as a leader making this choice that you don't belong. It's really, I'm putting that responsibility on you to say, here's what it is to be in the group. And if you're not willing or able to do that, then you can't be in the group right now. Yeah, that's good.

So, Ashley, if we know that dismissal is the next step, is the right next thing to do, what does that process look like? How should we handle dismissing a group member?

That can be. And I guess it depends too, if you're dismissing somebody because they're like, actively not participating or choosing not to do the work or show up. But then there's also dismissing, I guess, referring somebody out if they're continually relapsing, and maybe they are doing all the work. And so either approach, I think you want to point out with the person. And I've had to have these. I've had to have these conversations with people, and. And I always approach it really gently. But remind them that, one, these are the guidelines. And like Nick said, if you're. If you're not participating in the group the way that it was structured, then it really shows you don't want to be in this group, or this isn't what you need. But if it's something like they're not doing their work or. Or they're still relapsing, I really try to first figure out why. You know, why. You know, ask them, why is it that you're not able to do the work, you remember the guidelines and see what it is, and kind of help them to realize that maybe it's not good timing or not good, not good fit, or it's not what they expected. Because if they're saying, well, I'm just too busy right now with soccer, or I don't really agree with the material, and it just makes me angry every time I do it, then kind of help them verbalize the why it is they're not following those guidelines, and then remind them that these guidelines help this group stay safe. So I really think at this time, you should either, whatever it is, finish up with your kids busy, you know, season, and then. And then participate in a group when you have time, or if it's the homework thing and the. And they're too traumatized and they don't want to do it, then. Then maybe see a counselor first to start with, and then work through some of that stuff. And when you get to the point where you're ready to be back in group, you can come back. So figure out what it is first, and then direct them to take care of that before coming back to group.

Well, if it comes to someone being dismissed from group because of relapsing, I want to just be clear on that to say, you know, we want to make sure that's not a performance issue, that it's not like, oh, you relapsed for the seventh time, you're out of here. What Ashley is referring to more, there would be either a pattern where someone is doing that so repeatedly that it's evident they need an additional level of help, they need to engage in a counseling process, and then they need to take some direction from their counselor about what their group involvement should look like. So that'd be one scenario is you're referring them to that or. I've seen a few situations where it's evident by someone's behavior they're really not trying to amend their behavior. They're maybe just coming to the group to make a spouse happy. And it's like, yeah, I relapsed this week, and no big deal. And it's like, well, did you. You know, do you have a recovery plan in place? Well, no. Do you have any boundaries in place? Well, no. Do you have any. You know, so you start to realize they're not really doing any of the work to amend or change their behavior, then that goes more to the group guidelines. And the covenant contend to say, you know, we're all here because we're. We. We're desperately giving ourselves to the Lord and to one another to change our lives and our behavior. And it seems like right now you're pretty okay with this behavior in your life. And so that's gonna be a real mismatch with where the rest of the group's at. And so until you're really looking to change, we're gonna have to ask you to step out of group. So I just wanted to maybe clarify that in case anyone was getting worried, like, oh, man, if I relapse too much, I'm getting kicked out of my pure desire group. And what is that gonna be? And that it's those two scenarios that would be what we're discussing.

Yep. Thanks for clarifying that.

So, Ashley, if we have the need to dismiss a group member, what should it look like in the relationship with that person? I mean, do we just let them go and break contact? Do we stay in touch? What do you think is healthy in terms of any ongoing connection with that person?

Yeah, and that. That's a good question. I personally don't usually have people that leave and then want to come back right away. And so usually if they. If they don't. If they don't participate in group and they end up leaving, which doesn't happen very often, it's for a really apparent reason, and they go take care of that. And so they usually don't end up coming back. But our group still prays for them, and we still have. Usually still keep some communication if they need anything, if they. If they are thinking about getting back in group and what that looks like, it might not be my group, but they usually end up contacting me back. And then, of course, you have circles, situations where some people do allow their group members to come back and It's I need to go take care of this and then I'll be back. Or, or I realized that I cannot be outside of this group and I'm ready to commit. And if they come back quickly, that can work really well because they've realized that they do need the group and they are willing to commit and they can lose it if they're not, you know, participating. And so I always try to keep that door open. I mean, I'm not. Not going to want help, want somebody's health for them more than they do. So it's not going to be a, let's just meet once a week or anything like that. I tried that in the beginning. If, if somebody would leave my group. I really tried to stay connected with them. And okay, maybe the group's too much, so let's just meet for coffee every other week. And it burned me out so fast. And so I realized I just can't want somebody else's health more than they do. So I keep that door of communication open and we, we let them know we're praying for them.

But.

But it really is on them to pursue their next step of health. And I always try to give good direction, whether it's a counselor or another group that would fit better and then just leave it open, but not really schedule anything after that.

Well, I think, too, keeping in touch with them can be really helpful because if you. And I'm not saying, you know, definitely agreeing with you, Ashley, it's not something that we should, like, run after these people the second that they leave our group, but staying in some sort of contact or in touch with this person and not allowing what happened, their dismissal, to affect your relationship, I think in a lot of ways can be one of the most inviting things for that person to go back into group, where if their group members are treating them like crap and they're just like, look, you messed up and you shouldn't be in our group anymore. Yeah, like, later, dude. Like, that is not going to be helpful. And that can create a hurdle for somebody. And so I don't think that we can take away hurdles for other people. I think we can create them. And so in that it's proactively not creating a hurdle for somebody and continuing that relationship and hoping and praying that eventually that person does come back in a group, which is ultimately, like you said, their responsibility, but you can have a role in how smoothly that transition could happen for them.

Yeah. And just to have grace for group members that even if they're. Even if it's really, I'm quoting in the air their fault that they left group or got dismissed, but just have a ton of grace that people get to their point where they're ready to work hard on the recovery in their own time. And it really needs to be that timing for them where they're willing to do anything to work and sometimes people have to go experience a little more pain and then they may jump in the next round and. And that they always know where to come back because you left that door open for them as far as communication.

Yeah. And I think a healthy balance between those two extremes of either never contacting them or over functioning and contacting them all the time. And I've heard a lot of leaders approach it this way to say, hey, I'm going to follow up with you in a month or maybe that timeframe is three months to just I want to check in, I want to see how you're doing and where your readiness is at. And then, you know, as the leader, honor that in a month or two, whatever you've said, just call, check in, say, hey, do you want to grab coffee? And that's kind of your role. And if for some reason they reject that or don't want to, then I think it is healthy to leave it with them that when they're ready, it's on them to come back and reopen that conversation. I'm not going to keep chasing them down because I did provide an opportunity, I did reach out and hopefully that conversation went well. And maybe it did create a pathway of saying, huh, there's seems like there's been some adjustments here and you're making some changes. So let's talk about what it would look like to reincorporate you into a group. So kind of some middle ground there that I've heard other leaders do that really creates just a healthy way to keep in touch somewhat, but not over function.

Right.

Okay, so let's twist the perspective a little bit. Let's say that we're the one who is being dismissed from the group. I don't think that any listener is going to self identify, maybe as that being a potential, but there always is that potential. So if we are the person who's being dismissed, how should we respond? What's the best way for us to respond in the moment to that?

Yeah, that's a tough one because my initial reaction is always to get defensive and put up my fist and fight. Not really, but I mean, that's my initial reaction is getting really defensive. And so it can be really Hard. But I think the best thing to do if you find yourself blindsided or in that situation that you're not expecting to be dismissed, to get your guidelines out and to walk through and see, can I honestly say that I was doing each one of these, and is there a reason why I'm not doing that? Maybe it's an excuse I'm making. Maybe it's a fear of opening up. Maybe it's a pride thing, or you don't like direction from other people. Just really honestly assess why it is you're not feeling, following those guidelines so that you can figure out what your best next step is. Whether it's to work through that or see a counselor. And then always ask questions or even ask advice like, what can I do? What do you think I could do to be better at participating in a group when I come back? Because I think that honest feedback is really helpful. If you're not aware of maybe some of the ways that you're causing some disruption in group.

Yeah, I think that's great, Ashley. And if we've been dismissed, I think we need to just take a moment to recognize our group or our leader didn't do this because it was fun. They didn't think, oh, this would be great, let's go and cause this issue. And like, they came to a pretty tough decision because they felt it was going to be best for you or for the group to face something. And they're doing that with a lot of courage. So maybe just respect that, that it was a hard decision for them to make. And the other thing, I really encourage someone to consider that if you've been asked to step out of a group, your old nature is likely telling you it's because there's something wrong with me. They don't like me, I'm defective, everyone's against me. And those thoughts, by and large, are not true. To try to really listen to why this decision was made, because I'm not doing my homework. It's not because they don't like me. The group probably loves me. The group cares deeply about my health. But. But they're recognizing something that isn't happening, and they have the courage and they love me enough to call it out. So choose to see it from the positive perspective and don't listen to that old negative thought pattern. And then the other final thing I would just say is, as you were saying, Ashley, to really practice that humility. Because we all have blind spots. We all have things, and our tendency is to fight or disagree or be defensive. But maybe Some humility to say, huh? They didn't do this because it was fun, it was a hard decision, probably wasn't easy. And what they said to me, I probably need to listen to. And even if something in me is going that's not true, it's not fair to just take a deep breath and in humility go before the Lord and say, God, what do I need to learn from this? And would you help me to really listen to them and not get defensive and then help me change whatever it is in me that needs to change? Because this could actually be one of the best moments of your recovery, not one of the worst. If you take it to heart and allow it to shape and mold you.

I think another thing would just be, and a small thing, just don't react in the moment. Give it a week, give it two weeks, maybe a month. And then really try to dive in and really think about what's happening. Because I think that we're going to be like you said, Ashley, I'm the same way. If someone kicked me out of a group, like swear words and fists will go up. And so thinking through that in a way where if it's like, if that were to happen, then I need to maybe give it a minute before I respond or react or really try to figure out what happened. So just practically don't jump in right away and react.

Yeah. And you know, from an addict's perspective, like we always say, you know, that the leader should set the bar high. It sets the tone. And addicts have a tendency to just do the bare minimum to get by. And so we really need to be the ones to set the standard for group. And I think I've mentioned this before on a podcast, but I really learned that in going through Bible Study Fellowship because before then I had all these other Bible studies where you could really pop in and out whenever you wanted. I almost never had my homework done. It was just really just a fun get together for women. But when I joined Bible Study Fellowship and realized they actually have an attendance sheet and when they check it off and if you aren't there very much, then they could give your spot away. And that made me feel a little panicked where I always showed up and did my homework and, and made sure I communicated well if I was going to be gone. And that showed me that really it's so good to set the bar high because it draws out the best in people.

Well, here's a flip side of that question, Ashley. What if we are the spouse of someone who's been Dismissed from group. You know, what if our husband or wife comes home and we're like, how was it? Like, yeah, they kicked me out of group. What's our role in that situation? How do you think we should respond?

Go stay in a hotel for a week. Just kidding.

Athleisure. No, this is so good because I. It's so frustrating to me as a woman and a betrayed spouse. And I'm. And I'm. Right now I'm going to be with my betrayed spouses, be it. I've been the addict too, so I know. But when. When there's a spouse that's addicted in a group and you know that they're not doing the work, they're hardly ever showing up. You're not even sure if they're going because it gives the spouse false hope. And so really a dismissal is a great way for the spouse to know they're not really participating in the group process. They're not really investing in it. They're not really investing in the recovery, which, which is a good. It's a. It's a good way to show how much they're putting in to the importance of the reconciliation and rebuilding of this marriage. And so that gives you some clarity that maybe one on one counseling or, you know, counseling through our clinicians would be. Would be best for your spouse at this point. And so really take it as, I guess, a little. A little arrow pointing that this isn't the right step right now. We need something different. Because the worst thing you can do is have your spouse in group for nine months thinking that something's going to change, and then group ends and they're not any different. And so dismissal can be great for that clarity.

If you are the spouse of someone who's been dismissed, please do not put your healing on them. Do not come back from group and say, okay, I'm going to teach you everything that we talked about tonight so that you can get healthy too. It's not your responsibility. In that moment, you're the last person they want to hear it from. Especially if. If it's a betrayal and an addiction on either end. I think understanding that your healing is your healing. So I think that continuing to get healthy, continuing to do the work in group, continuing to grow, I think is the best thing that you can do. There are things you can do to come alongside and support or pray for or encourage, but man, you are not the teacher. And just to make sure that you are continuing to do your work on you, because that's what's going to end up, that's where the win is for you.

You know, I would just add, if you're in a relationship where you're confronting a pattern of lies and deception that have been in the relationship and you're not entirely certain that your spouse tells you the truth, I think in that situation you need to kindly ask that permission to say, hey, would it be okay if I reached out to your leader to just hear more about the situation? Because it may be you hear something like, oh, they kicked me out, they don't like me, or they're just messed up or you know, give you some reason that doesn't ring true. And then you talk to a leader who says, well, they haven't done their homework in over a month. And it's like, oh, well, I didn't hear that. And that's actually, again, I don't want to turn this into a punitive thing or now you're going to come and wag your finger at someone, but to just be able to have that honest conversation to say to your spouse, hey, you've told me you want to change. You've communicated to me you want to invest in our relationship, you want things to look differently. And yet the truth is you're not even investing in this group. So what's going on here? Because clearly what you're telling me and what you're doing in group don't match up. And if we're going to have a healthy relationship, we need to have some alignment there. The what you tell me and what you're doing in your group need to be consistent. So just to approach it kind of in that appeal to integrity and to say, hey, if we're going to build trust, I need to know that you're doing what you say you're going to do. So like I said, that may be a difficult situation to be in, but if there's a pattern of lies and deception, you may need to do some follow up to say, could I reach out and find out what their perspective is on this and see if you can't get the whole story before you jump to some conclusions.

Yeah.

So how do we know? Because I think that especially looking at this biblically, the whole point of dismissing somebody or removing somebody from a church or from group, the hope is that that person would return, that that person restoration would be a part of their story. And so when we dismiss or have to dismiss a group member, how do we know that person's ready to come back? How do we know we're not letting them in too Early. And how do we know when the right time is? When the perfect time is to bring them back?

Yeah, and I don't know, maybe you guys have more experience with this. I have experience from it, from hearing from other leaders, but I have only ever dismiss somebody that never came back to the group. It just was not a good fit. The whole group process. They weren't there for themselves or it's never gotten past kind of step two where we talked about the guidelines and then I talked to them. And when I talked to them one on one, they realized how important the group is to them and that they don't want to risk losing their spot. So they really participated fully till the end. And so I've never actually had somebody leave that wanted to come right back myself. But I have heard it from leaders and some of the things that they have said. The leaders that I've walked through this process with are that the. The. They make sure that their group knows that that's a possibility before they dismiss that person. And so that the people in group aren't having that anxiety of like, okay, people are going to go and then they're going to be gone and we're all bonded and now they're coming back. And. And so it really depends on the dynamic of the group, how they're feeling and also the other person, what they can explain that they've done to show that they're really committed. And then if you are to bring somebody back to group, they really need to come in knowing there's not going to be a bunch of warnings that you've already experienced what needs to happen to be in group. You've left, you're saying you're committed. And so now when you come back, we really need it to just happen. And if it doesn't, then we're just gonna have you not do this group and then maybe talk about it when the next group comes around to start.

Yeah. In my experience also I've not had someone come back to the same group. What's happened more frequently is they get a fresh start with a new group. And that's, I think, a valuable role like the Conquer series can play. Or maybe what we're doing now with doing a small group with stories for women, the gals have a shorter book study that it kind of gives someone a training ground to prove that I have amended my ways, I'm doing my homework, I'm going to engage, I'm going to be consistent, and they can jump back in like to the start of a Conqueror series. And then roll into a seven pillars group. That's what I've seen be effective. But I think you gave some great advice, Ashley, on just preparing a group if someone is dismissed to say, hey, it's our hope that they'll be back. It's our hope that they'll face these things because we do care about them and we want to be part of their healing, that here's why they're not going to be here for a while. So that the group has that hope and expectation and isn't just moving on like, oh well, I guess we forget about them, but that they're continuing to hope and pray that God works in that person's life.

Yeah, yeah.

I think that one thing for sure is that I think when people are growing in self awareness, that's usually a good indicator that there's some growth happening. And so just practically, because I too have never experienced this, but I think one of the things I would be looking for is this person becoming more aware and able to articulate some of the issues or problems that they were causing or some things that they're seeing in their own life. I'm not saying that that's the telltale sign, bring them back into group and let's rock it. But really just looking at something from the outside, I think that self awareness and seeing someone grow in there, really finding out what the core is driving them and keeping track of, if they're continuing to do their faster scale and they've been consistent with it, you're going to see some change. And so maybe that's a time to start that conversation with your group and maybe bring that person back and presents.

If you bring me a present, I'll.

Let you back or coffee.

Good to know. So Ashley, as we think about, you know, the vast majority of groups are meeting in a church. They're part of the church's system. They've got some sort of connection with staff who are overseeing groups and connected to them. So what do you see as being the role that a church can or should play in supporting groups that are in this kind of a situation?

Oh yeah, this is good because I had such great support from my church in starting groups. And like you said about the recovery action plan, the more you lead groups, the less you need to do this really. But in the beginning when we were launching groups, there was a lot of this because our structure wasn't as tight, but we had our. So the churches would support us on the front end and the back end. They would help us. Just we always could go to our church leadership if we're having issues with a group member. Because it's good to have some sound feedback, some sound counsel from somebody in the church that's in a pastoral role or ministry oversight role. But then also a lot of times, if somebody needs to be dismissed, like a church counselor might be their next step to figure out why the group situation didn't work and maybe where they should go from there. Um, so just having the church counselors on board, the church pastor on board, if that's who people go to, they are a great next step for group members that need some new direction after a group didn't work. And then just that emotional support. When I've had to dismiss people for really good cause, it was great to have my pastor run through that situation with me, give me some. Some good words to say in a way that wouldn't ignite the situation, and then also just reassure me that that was the right call. And leading is hard. And so being surrounded by support in your church is crucial, in my opinion.

Yeah. And I think just a good rule of thumb is don't ever dismiss someone from a group until you first communicated with the person over you. So whether that's your pastor, another group leader, the men's minister, the women's minister, you've had a conversation with them to explain what's going on and what you plan to do, both so that they can advise you, but that also that then they're aware. Because there's a likelihood that person who's being dismissed might come back to them to complain or cause a problem. And if they're aware ahead of time of what's been going on, they're going to be much more equipped to respond to that. Well, to support you and to support what's happening. So I just make that a rule of thumb. Don't surprise your pastor or someone over you by. Oh, by the way, last night we, you know, kicked so and so out. Like, wait, whoa, whoa, what's going on here? So keep them informed. And that's just going to make for a better relationship all around.

Yeah, Yep, Absolutely.

So let's just end this episode the same way we do. So let's say that someone is in this situation where they have a really difficult group member and they know that dismissal is an option. Maybe not necessarily the right next step, but it's definitely an option. What encouragement will we give to people out there when it comes to this topic of dismissing group members?

I would just not be afraid to do it. Like Nick said, I often, if I had to dismiss somebody, they would want to come back for the next round. And not always my group, maybe another leader's group, but they came back so strong and ready to commit because they knew there was that risk of not being able to be in group if you're not going to do the work. And, and that we, we talk to so many leaders around the world and we can see that when people have a better structure in place like this, that their groups do better and their group members do better. And so just trust that. It's hard, but it's really good for the group. It's good for the group member. And the other thing is, as often as you can always have a co leader because having support and two minds making decisions and then also talking to your pastoral oversight or whoever that is, it just really helps you be a solid leader. Because sometimes as a leader you may be triggered and you may be reacting emotionally or somebody may bother you. And so just to have more than one person's input on the group situation is really will help you from getting burned out or overreacting yourself.

Yeah, I think my final encouragement would just be to say, have the hard conversation sooner rather than later. I think I've always kicked myself in a group when there's a behavior that I know is, it's a little over the line in terms of there's a rabbit trailer, they didn't really do their homework and you just kind of let it go. You're like, well, we'll see if it keeps happening. And then, you know, down the road you're like, ah, shoot, now it's, it keeps happening. And now the hard conversation just got harder because we didn't deal with it right away. So when you see problematic behaviors, broken group guidelines, those kind of things. Yeah, it's still going to be a hard conversation, but the sooner you have it, the higher the likelihood it'll go well and the better it will be. The longer you wait, the harder it gets. So have courage, but you actually need a little less courage if you deal with it sooner. So that would just be my encouragement to, to leaders out there.

Yeah, I think mine is really similar. It's just the idea of having, having the idea of dismissal talked about maybe on the first night of group, when you're talking about group guidelines and talking about, and you know, don't use it as like a fear tactic, but definitely establish it as this happens, that if group guidelines aren't something that are followed or kept, that dismissal is definitely an option and kind of talk, like maybe give like two or three sentences on that and then just continue on into group. Because if you set that up earlier, it's always something you can go back to and you can lean back on and say, well, remember we talked about this. And so using it not consistently, but using it early in that sense, maybe even night one, having that conversation. Because maybe that is something that would then motivate somebody. Like, okay, this is serious. Like this could be something. It's not just your run of the mill type of Bible study where I can do it half heartedly and no one is hurt. It's really starting to set the standards really, really early. So that would just be my encouragement. Man, this situation sucks. It really does. Like, I don't even like talking about it. I'm trying to have fun as we're recording this, but at the same time it's really hard because this is not something that each of us set out to do. No one sets out to be the person dismissed and no one sets out to be a group member that helps dismiss another member. So just knowing that this is a possibility I think is really important for anybody out there in groups. It's important to know that sometimes this is the best decision and not just for the group, but for that individual. So just really hold fast to that. And look, we've talked about it. It's not going to be easy, it's not going to be fun. But at times this is going to be the best decision. And oftentimes the best decision is not always easy or fun. So if you are in a place where you feel like this decision is something you have to do, please don't rush into it. If you have questions or need support or encouragement, please reach out. Email Ashley. Email Rich, Our group coordinators. Just email groupsouredesire.org we'll make sure that that's in the show notes and reach out by phone. We'll attach Ashley's number to the show notes. So just don't do this alone. And know that we're going to also put the group referral criteria and group guidelines tools and then also the podcast for the group guidelines in the show notes. So just know that there are resources out there. Ashley, thanks for what you're doing. Thanks for your expertise and thanks for hanging out with us today.

Yeah, it's always fun.

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