078 - Help! My Kid is Looking At Porn

Welcome to the Pure Desire podcast, where we partner with you to bring hope and freedom on your journey to purity. Hey there. I'm your host, Trevor Windsor, and we're so thankful you're taking time out of your day to hang out with us. I'm here, as always, with my co host, Nick Stumbo.

Good morning, Vietnam.

Oh, my gosh.

Wait, is it Vietnam to say Vietnam?

I mean, anyway, that's a movie from your decades, not mine.

Whoa. That's before me. I've never actually seen the movie. I just know that one line.

And that's Robin Williams, right?

Yep.

Rest in peace.

To Robin Williams.

Rest in peace. We love Robin Williams. Well, I mean, as most listeners know, we would love to talk about Robin Williams for a while, but we're not going to. Back with us again is one of our regulars, Ashley Jamison. Ashley is our international group coordinator for women's groups and is a part of our speaking team. And she's awesome. Welcome back, Ashley.

Hi.

So thanks for a really short intro, Ashley. Really appreciate that. So today we're going to be talking about a super exciting topic. And by that I mean not at all. Today we're going to be talking about what to do if you find out your kids are looking at porn. So Ashley, as a mother of teenagers, we're going to use her to look at this, really dive into this topic with her experience and expertise. Nick's got some teenagers as well. So basically, if you don't walk away from this episode with all of your parenting problems solved, you, you can have your money back. Okay, that's not true. We don't charge for these. But we are gonna dive into this.

Topic which makes it convenient to give a money back guarantee. That is true.

I thought through that. But we're gonna talk about this situation. Cause it's a tough one, but it's one that a lot of parents today, if not most parents, are having to deal with. So let's just jump in and talk about it.

All right.

Yeah. This is a vital topic, too. Even if you don't have teenagers, if you've got much younger kids. And I think, as you're gonna hear in this episode, that's a part of what we need to be thinking about much, much before they're teenagers. So, Ashley, to kick it off along those lines, let's start with this. How can parents be preparing themselves for this potential situation? Because as we know, in today's day and age, it's not really a matter of if our kids see pornography. It's more a question of when and what will they do when that happens. So how can parents be preparing themselves for this situation?

That's a good question. Just to be upfront, I'm navigating in my brain how much to share about my kids and how much not to share about them.

What do I have permission to say?

What do I have? Yeah, but I've already warned them that I share all of their stuff on, you know, on these things. So. And like you said, it is a matter of when because although both of my teenagers have seen porn, they confess to actually, you know, they've seen it way earlier, before they were even teenagers. So I think although we may talk a lot about teenagers, that it really, you know, happens. I have a friend whose nine year old did, or my neighbor girl did, you know, so it's really just a matter of when because everybody has a phone and access. But anyways, parents, I feel like, can prepare themselves. Really. Like what Nick said, it's a matter of when. So I think the best way you can prepare yourself is to mentally rehearse and kind of run through what you would actually do if, if and when that happens. Because the worst thing you can do is be caught up in the moment and then have that shock or shame or fear or anger and then react out of those feelings in the moment. So for me, I actually have kind of ran through verbally how I would respond, what I would say, and then also having a plan. Like I knew immediately when I first knew that my boys had looked at porn, that I was going to reach out to two of my friends that kind of know everything that's going on with my life and are good counsel. Because even for me, working for pure desire and talking about how common this is and how big the struggle it is, I experienced a lot of shame when I found out my son was looking at porn. Like, where did I go wrong? Now nobody's gonna want to listen to me because, you know, my kid looked at porn and that's a really big trap that can keep us isolated that you want to not let anybody know that there's this potential for looking like a bad parent. So just have a plan and have people that you're going to talk to if it happens ahead of time.

Yeah. And if you know that this is something that's going to happen, do your research now. Figure out what's really going on at the core. What pornography does to the brain, what it does to a teenager or a child's brain. But then too, I think something just on a practical side I would start doing research on, because here's the thing, there are tons of apps. There are tons of things that we now have access to that actually have browsers inside of them. And a lot of times we don't think about that when trying to help our kids live with online health. And so I would do your research in that sense, too. Like what apps, what sites really have pornographic or sexual content on it and then really work to help filtering those or helping your kids understand to avoid these and why that sort of thing. So I think doing your research on what pornography can do to the brain and then also where people can access it, don't search. Where can you find porn on the Internet? That is not what I'm telling you to do. What I'm telling you to do is do your research. There are a lot of people, including us, that offer resources to figure out what those are and how to help your family avoid those pitfalls.

I appreciate you clarifying that, Trevor, just in case anyone was looking for a loophole. But when I think of preparing ourselves, to me, it's a lot about what kind of culture am I creating in my home? And so am I creating a culture of truth telling? And not one that's driven by, you know, punishment if you don't tell the truth, but just this culture where we expect we're honest and we're transparent and we speak the truth in love and we don't hide and keep secrets. And you can be building that culture at any time, no matter what age your kids are. And also what comes to mind for me, and we talk about this a lot at our conferences, and I'm sure it's come up on this podcast that the greatest asset or tool we're going to have in working with our teenagers is our own healing, is our own sobriety, our own health. And so if we have any kind of struggles in our life along the lines of pornography or sexually that we haven't dealt with, now is the time to deal with it. Now is the time to address those things in our life. And even if we feel like, oh, it's stuff from my past or things I did before I was married, those things will have a way of creeping back up, that you will react to your kids out of fear or anger or your own unprocessed wounds and stories and emotions. And so as your kids are entering into those years, the more you can process your own stuff and your own history and your own struggles, you will automatically, and I don't mean automatically like a robotic way, but Just by dealing with your stuff, you will be more prepared to help your teenagers than the parent that thinks, oh, my, things don't matter. I can just, you know, I can help my kids do what I never did. Well, that's hard to do. So I think as you prepare yourself, it's just a value. My own journey is what's going to help my kids, probably more than anything.

Yeah. So, Ashley, if a parent doesn't know if their kids have seen porn or not, because I think a lot of us, if we really understand that it's not a matter of if, but when, let's say a parent doesn't know if their kid has seen porn or not, is it something that they should just come right out and ask about? Like, how does a parent go about finding out if their kid has been exposed to porn?

Yeah. And I think on different, you know, with different age, ages, it's different. So like with my little people, they're eight and seven. With them, I. I often talk about how, you know, different things show up on our tv. Just that language of bringing awareness to it, or we. We run across things. Sometimes they see things on billboards or I'll even approach them by saying, how did it go over at so and so's house? You know, one time when I was at somebody's house, you know, this happened. And so that's why I like to check these things, because I always want you to know that you can talk to mommy and I. And I've been in some situations, so I just share things from when I was their age and then keep that conversation going. And I feel like it does help because my daughter did tell me immediately when something happened at a friend's house. But then also I have two kids who, even though we do have a culture where we talk about a lot of this stuff openly all the time, they're still afraid to tell us. And I would think that that's just your human nature because you see that even with Adam and Eve, that I'm sure God had a wonderful culture of grace for them, but they're a shame to share. And so you can't always just assume that because you have a culture of conversation in your house where you're open that your kids are going to talk to you because there's still that fear and that shame that keeps them from being open. And so always reaching out to ask them is, I feel like, huge. I do it regularly. Not every time, but regularly. When they spend the night places, my older ones, or they go to somebody's house with my teenager. I ended up just trying to do research about understanding these apps that I don't know anything about, like Snapchat. And I saw this hint like, you can look here to see if your kids have anything hidden. And so I didn't even know if he was looking at porn, but I saw that he had this little file that was hidden. And so I went and asked him and that's when he confessed and said, I've been struggling with wanting to tell you for the last three months, but I haven't been able to bring myself to do it. And so just constantly checking in with your kids is huge, I think, because it gives them that open door. Okay, this is my time to tell them what I've been struggling with.

And I think what you're doing there, Ashley, is approaching it from that posture as a parent of more curiosity and helpful conversation as opposed to condemning or, you know, this, you're not looking at pornography, are you? It's like, well, that's almost a no win answer there. But asking and almost assuming just that it may have been accidental because I think it can even give your kids convenient way to say, well, yeah, this kind of popped up. So I have one teenage daughter, then my other kids are younger than that. But asking questions like, you know, hey, has anything popped up when you're scrolling through your, you know, I know what videos they're watching on YouTube because I know what programs they like. But I'll say, you know, sometimes ads pop up or other videos that you didn't think or intend. Has anything ever come up that you thought was inappropriate or surprised you or you didn't understand and, and just kind of starting from that non condemning, non shaming that they might say, yeah, this was weird or this was odd, and giving them that opportunity to talk about it and not just putting them on the spot and making them feel like I'm coming down on them. I'm more just trying to find out, how's it going? What are you looking at? What are you seeing? And that's again, one of those things I think we can be doing when our kids are very young. With my boys right now who are only 9 and 7, I'll just ask them, hey, are any of the boys at school talking about stuff you don't understand? Has anyone brought something to class and then told you not to talk to your teacher? Or just kind of inquisitive and letting them talk about their day in a way that isn't a big deal, but hopefully creates that framework for Them where they know when something does happen. Rather than feeling like I have to hide it very early on, my parents are the safe people to bring it to.

Yeah, I think sharing your experience is really important. I mean, obviously my son is almost two and so it's not something where I'm in the same situation or same boat as you guys, but I'm preparing to have conversations and be open, you know, Ashley, you were talking about that a little bit, but also sharing my experience. And not to the point where it's like, hey buddy, when daddy was this age, this is what I struggled with. But being open and honest about what my health looks like, what my recovery looks like, what my life and my growth as a human being and as a follower of Christ has looked like. And that includes those pockets of where I had my addiction and where I learned what recovery really looked like and what I learned, you know, when I learned and where I really started to experience health. So I think being not just sharing my negative experiences, but sharing my life story, sharing my narrative, I think can be really helpful for my kids. That's what I would suggest too for parents is just sharing your experience.

Yeah. And I know that all the talking that we do as parents, if we're just constantly sprinkling in information in an organic way and not making it awkward and having a big whiteboard that says porn and sitting at the table, but you know, when we're constantly just pouring in information, like we have our kids watch different videos on porn and the effects and when we talk to them about our past and they know all of their parents history, I mean, not everything, but they know the struggles. And I heard my one son when I asked him, you know, have you looked at porn? You know, as well, and he's like, yeah, I did once. All the kids in my class do, but I always tell them they're going to get erectile dysfunction if they keep doing that. And so it's like, okay, that is direct line of something I told him before. So. So I know it's sinking in. And then you've got this other one who has a different personality where it's like, okay, let's help you to have some boundaries here and talk about this more.

So Ashley, if a parent does discover, as you did, that you've got a child, a teenager in your home that's been looking at pornography and maybe at the initial discovery, we don't know how much, we don't know how intentional what's maybe stuff from friends or from themselves when we've Just become aware this is an issue. What are some responses that you feel like parents should avoid in that situation?

Well, I think a common response is why would you do that and how could you do that? And I think those are really detrimental. I mean, and then there's obvious like, you little pervert and things like that, but that we shouldn't say, but why would you do that and how could you do that? Or, you know, what were you thinking? Those are things that are, I think are just instant responses sometimes out of a parent's mouth. I'm even guilty of doing that sometimes and needing to go back and correct that. And that's why I think it is good to rehearse what you say if you find that out, because they probably are already feeling shame. So then to add that on is only going to make matters worse.

Yeah, I think too there's like the immediate punishment, going straight to that without thinking through what's going on. And that's part of understanding. If you understand what this problem is, what sexual addiction really is stemming from, if it's a numbing out of your pain or trying to medicate from the difficulty in life, if you know that when you go in going more towards the root, like, how are you feeling in that moment? Try to process that. And really you're teaching them how to process what led them to that acting out or looking at porn rather than just the actual act itself. So I think that to some degree it's got to be. I mean, if, if they, if you've already talked about it and there's something, you know, they've. They've done it wrong. I'm not, not saying that you can't punish them. That's not what I'm saying. But what I'm saying is, especially as you first approach it, to really pay attention to the conversation that you have, don't go straight to, okay, well, you're grounded for a month and no phone and no Facebook and no, like, I would suggest not doing that because guess what? The next time it happens, there's no way that kid's telling you zero way. Because they don't want that thing to happen anymore. They don't want those, those consequences. So approaching it in a real, real man, relational way, we're trying to figure out what's going on here at the root first before moving to any of the consequences.

Yeah, yeah.

I think what you're talking about there is the difference between consequences and punishment. That punishment is just grounded in. There's something wrong with you. You did bad and so you're going to pay for it. And you know, that rarely changes behavior. Just like you said, Trevor, it makes someone figure out, well, I'll find ways to do it that they don't discover because I need to keep it from them versus consequences. Being more rooted in love and discipline and a desire to help someone grow and change. We just have to make sure we're bringing it to them in the right way of because you made this choice, here are some outcomes of that. Some things we're going to need to change and to work on. And granted, your teenager might still say, you know, it's punishment, it's unfair, but I think your wording really matters a lot. And the other thing that comes to mind for me is to really avoid reacting out of fear because I think we need to take a moment as a parent to say, am I getting angry because I'm afraid I'm failing as a parent, or I'm afraid of the worst case scenarios, or I'm afraid of how this will look. Just things you were saying, Ashley, how this will sound if other people hear about it and, and when that's what's driving our response and our behavior. We're going to do and say things out of fear that we do regret and we realize that wasn't good parenting. That was me just trying to deal with my own fears. So taking some time to take some deep breaths, to calm down, to think through it and to really ask the question, what's going to be most helpful to my child to learn and grow from this? As opposed to just saying, how can I make them stop and power up, you know, and be in control? Which is usually our fear based response. So reacting in fear, I think is just a really big thing to be aware of and not do that.

Right.

So if a parent does find out that this has happened, that their kids looked at porn, then what are some positive responses? What's the right way to approach this situation?

Well, I found that when I've talked to my boys about different things that they've stumbled across, it's best to just kind of take a breather, like what Nick is saying, to make sure that I'm not reacting out of fear because my initial response is panic. And I know that if my, if I'm feeling panicked or fearful that my kid's going to turn out all messed up or I'm failing, then I know that I'm probably like in high gear, my adrenaline's running and that's not a good time to have a talk. So Just waiting and kind of breathing and praying and talking to a friend first and then going with a level head to my kid is best. And, and the way that I approached it was just as you guys were talking a minute ago about punishment versus consequences. I really almost do like a recovery action plan type thing with my kids. I go and I explain the logical consequences first of what happens to your brain and how I've noticed that you've been distant. And this is actually kind of an answer to prayer. I told my son when I found out he was looking at stuff. I said, I have felt the last couple weeks that you've been distant and I've actually been praying that God would use whatever he could to break you through and to bring you closer again. And he was really receptive to that. And so just kind of pointing out that when we do things that we're ashamed of, we isolate ourselves. We're more snappy with our siblings, we slack on our homework. And so in order to keep you on the right track, these are the things we can do. We can take this off your phone, we can do kind of weekly check ins, we can make sure you're doing your homework up at the table instead of down at your room. And then I also let him know that I have certain boundaries in my life because we all sin and we all have things that pull us away and tempt us, every single one of us. And so it's actually wisdom to know what tempts you and then to create guardrails. And so because my son knows about my husband's past porn addiction, I'll explain. This is why we don't watch rated R movies. This is why we don't put him in, you know, he doesn't go in this environment because those are temptations. And for me, I don't go out to bars and dance anymore because that was a temptation when I was a sex addict with guys. And so I get to use some of my examples that he knows and let him know that's just normal human behavior and it's wise to know where you're weak and build guardrails. And then I also just remind him, my initial response with my kids is to instantly say, this does not make you bad. You are not a bad person. This doesn't change how I feel about you. This is very common. You know, we just need to talk about this and just remind him that.

Well, I think in this situation, like in so many other parenting situations, one of the best things we can do early on is to listen to really approach it with this posture of help me understand what happened here. Can you explain what's been going on? What was going on in your thinking? And not an accusatory what were you thinking? But, like, help me just process with me what was going on as this happened. Because there may be a lot more to the story that you don't know about, that maybe there is a circle of friends that are pressuring them to do something, and if you only react to their behavior but don't become aware of the situation, that maybe they're feeling caught and they're feeling powerless to know how to resist it or step out of something that has happened. And you really want to make sure you hear the whole story rather than just punishing the outcome. Because as we've talked in other things, if we only deal with outcomes and not the roots of it or what's leading to it, we're going to keep getting outcomes we don't like. So really listen to your child, listen to their thought process, listen to what has been going on so you can enter into the story with them in the most helpful way, as opposed to just coming down hard on what happened. And then with that, like you were saying, Ashley, I think finding the opportunities here to direct someone to health, to talk about what's happening in their brain, to talk about that they are a sexual being and it's not bad or wrong, that they find the opposite gender attractive or desirable, that God designed our brains that way. You know, our friend Rodney Wright has said that not every sexual thought is lustful. And sometimes parents inadvertently communicate that message that anything you desire for sex, there's something wrong and get that out of you. And it's like, well, no, actually, it's a beautiful thing as we're maturing into adulthood, that we start to desire these things. And that's part of God's design in our life. And helping a young person see the good, even though it led to something bad, that you can affirm the good and then say, like you were saying, Ashley, let's figure out how to channel this towards continued health and not allow it to be an open door into sin. Because God has great plans for your life and your sexuality, and I want to help you get there the best I can.

Yes. So, Nick, based off of what you're saying, one of the verses, and this is one of my favorite verses, is James 1:19. And it's quick to listen, slow to speak, slow to become angry. And that's a great approach to life in general, but especially to this, it's the same thing. I just think of how many times I had conversations with my parents and it was really quick to become a conversation and less of me sharing of them, asking questions of me. And so I think that that's something that I would suggest anybody do, whether it's porn or anything else, quick to listen to your kids and slow to actually speak. And then that also allows you to be slow to become angry. And so going into it, understanding the perspective is I want to better understand my kid, not I want to fix them. Because I think that when we get into fixer mode, that's when things can get really bad especially and this is my experience, speaking as a child, not yet having a kid old enough to really have these types of interactions. But if you are quick to listen to me and allow me to process, I'm more willing to share. And then if you allow me to share, I'm willing, more willing to listen to you share.

So Ashley, as we're talking about this, a parent finds himself in this situation where pornography has come into their teenager's life. They're starting to help them deal with it. As we're having these conversations, what level do you think is appropriate for us as parents to share with our teenagers about our experiences and struggles that we've had? Where is that helpful and where is it potentially crossing a line or being something that could be hurtful to them?

Yeah, I always start with trying to identify an area in my life from when I was their age. That's always my first go to if I'm talking to my 7 year old, then I talk about things I struggled with that are similar when I was 7 and same with the 15 year olds. They know how I struggled as a 15 year old and what kind of trouble it got me into. So they know that it's coming from a place of I really understand and I'm not judging them, but I, I really love them and care for them and want their body and mind and soul to be as healthy as possible. And so I think it's really good to share. I know some parents don't agree with that, but I really think it's good to share your struggles from when you were their age because they know they're not weird or like you say, Nick, the worst kind of bad that even their own parents, who usually they look up to struggled with some of the same things. And then even as a parent, if you've, you know, had some recovery in an area, I think sometimes age appropriate, that's, that's good to share, too. So my boys do know about. About their stepdad's struggle with pornography and, and that, you know, he has certain guardrails in place. And it's, it's an open conversation that, you know, we don't always say, oh, John looked at porn last night and relapsed. You know, that's not like. That's not how we do it. But just being honest about that, you don't reach a point where you don't struggle in life anymore. And so being aware of that and being aware of the temptation of sin is key. And then being strong enough to ask for help and have boundaries and guardrails. And I try to share as much as I can about my struggle. So I took social media off their phones and I said, this is good. This is a good thing. I took social media off my phone and I actually even canceled my account because I saw that it was taking away from interacting and engaging with the people that are in front of me. And so just to show that it's not, I'm the parent. And this is what I said, you know, this. I say this. So it goes. But I really understand that. And we're going to do this together as a family to make sure that we're being healthy.

You know, something off that too, Ashley, as I'm thinking about it, is sharing. Because if I've gone through recovery, I know what was at the core, what was motivating those moments when I was that age. Understanding where my points of powerlessness are, understanding where I started to believe certain lies. And so if my kid's 13, and I think back to when I'm 13, I can remember some of the things that happened, that maybe they're in my top 10 worst moments, or maybe they're the things that I hold on to still today. And if I can share about those things as the motivations to what caused me to do things that are wrong, whether it's the same exact acting out that they're doing, if it's pornography, or if it's something else. But just being able to say, when I was your age, this is how I felt, and I really struggled with this feeling. And, and that feeling led me to pursue other things so that I didn't have to feel that way. And so really going back again to the core of that, being able to communicate that, and I think that that's a plug for really getting healthy and figuring out what's going on in your own heart. Because as you learn how to maneuver through this life, In a healthy way and figure out really what's going on in your own brokenness. That's when you best can help the people that are around you. Because you've experienced that first.

Yeah. What I hear you saying there, Trevor, that I think so great is we're trying to create an emotional connection with our kids. We don't have to be able to identify with the exact behavior. In fact, as the world changes and it's all this digital stuff, maybe that wasn't what we had to battle with when we were their age. So we can't always connect. Exactly. But we can say, you know, I remember what it felt like to worry that I wasn't good enough or that the girls wouldn't like me or that I wasn't attractive or I was curious. I remember being curious, you know, that that emotional connection of those desires are common to us, and you're not alone, and we can talk on that emotional level, then whatever it leads to is a little easier to discuss. The one parameter that I would bring up here is to make sure you are never confiding in your child something you haven't been honest and open with others, particularly with your spouse. And I think this is more common when it's of the same gender. If you've got an older teenage son, you know, for the guys, or an older teenage gal for women, it might be tempting to share things. Well, your dad doesn't know this, but these things happened to me when I was younger. And what you're doing there is you're inadvertently turning your child into a secret keeper for you. And that's just not an emotionally healthy place for them to be where they are. Like, well, I know things about my mom that my dad doesn't know, or I know things about my dad that his family doesn't know. So just be very careful of that. That you don't ever make them your secret keeper. You should be sharing things with them only that you've also shared with your spouse or other significant people, like in your group, that. That it's not putting a burden on them, that you might not realize it. But that can be really heavy for a kid to bear and create just some real challenges for them to know how to bond with you or how to bond with their mom. And so just be very careful that you don't share those things. Putting them in that position.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's good advice.

So, Ashley, I think it's really normal for a parent if they find out that their kid's looking at porn for the first thought or first reaction to be like, okay, I'm going to monitor everything. I'm going to look at your phone every day, I'm going to get every accountability software on the face of the planet and I'm just going to basically like suffocate this issue. What does healthy monitoring look like? As a parent, it's your job to shepherd this soul and really teach them what it looks like to live in a way that honors the Lord. So with that, how does monitoring fit into that? What does that look like in a healthy way?

I think you made a really good point, Trevor, because when I first started monitoring my kids cell phones, I had everything. I could read their texts, I could, you know, everything that I could think of was on their phone. And it was so exhausting. A lot of times it brought me back to when John was going through his addiction and I would snoop through his emails and that anxiety because you're like, well what's this and who's that? And you know, and then I'm constantly coming at my kids accusatory like well who is this and what were you guys talking about? And then they explain it and it's like nothing. And so it can be really exhausting. And you don't want to get caught in that hyper vigilant, hovering helicopter parent mode where they feel so watched that they just want to avoid anything that has to do with you. And being a teen leader, leading teens, I hear that a lot with kids. So I think that having one open, honest conversations with your kids all the time, asking them direct questions is really good. And then also we have covenant eyes on our kids phone and so they have the freedom to use their phone but it has limits and it has restrictions and we have, I don't know if we're supposed to be like saying certain devices that we use or like we have this other device that monitors all, you know, all the Internet addresses that are visited in our house. So if their friend brings a phone into our house and they log onto our WI fi, it basically monitors WI fi anywhere they go. And so, you know, we have stuff like that and a lot of times we do get red flags and I've learned to not react right away when they get a red flag. And so one time I don't want to like give out names because I want to get anything wrong on web addresses, but one time it said your son visited, blah blah, blah. And I'm like what's this? And you know, of course my husband's like, oh, that's porn. Site and I'm like, oh my goodness. So I go downstairs and I talk to the kids and they said, yes, that was a porn site. And it blocked us, blocked us. But it wasn't us trying to go to that site. Somebody else told us this other site that's like extreme sports videos and it was the same two letters but they were inverted and so they had just typed them in wrong. But you really just have to be careful. And like Nick says, ask questions, don't just go down there queues, you know, you visited another site so everything's getting shut down. But go down there and ask questions like, hey, this popped up. Can you explain what this is? But for me personally, my level of monitoring is to let them know that I have the ability to monitor. But I don't always look at everything every day because it creates more anxiety and more distrust with my kids rather than just being able to approach them and ask them about things and letting them have that trust until they show that it's broken and then we reign in the boundaries.

Well, I think we want to make sure that we see this as a progressive relationship. It's dynamic, not static. It's changing. And so the younger our kids are, the more monitoring we should be doing, that a 12 year old that's maybe stumbling onto pornography on their phone doesn't need a phone. And we can be more direct. Say it appears that right now you're not ready for this. And so we're going to take some steps and you know, maybe six months or a year we'll try again or a device that's being a problem. I think at 12, 13 you may be say, we're not ready for this device and we're going to remove it from your life for right now, and here's why. But at some point these kids are going to leave your home. At some point they're going to be an adult and enter into the world and make their own choices. And it could be right at 18, maybe they'll stay at home for a few years in college, but even then they're becoming their own adult and their own person. And our goal is to equip them to be healthy, mature adults in this world. And so if they're 18 and we're still saying, well, you're losing your phone, it's not a very realistic relationship anymore because we're not training them for anything, we're just taking stuff away. And so the older they are, I think the less we want to directly monitor and the more we're trying to help them make the choices. The more we phrase questions like, you know, do you think this is the kind of relationship you want to have with a smartphone? Or do you feel like this is creating dependence in your life? Do you think this will help you be a better boyfriend or girlfriend if you start dating, if you're engaging in this? So a 17, 18 year old, they need to be equipped to make the choices and maybe putting it in their hands to say, well, what do you feel like you need? And maybe they say, boy, I think for right now, maybe I should just get rid of my smartphone and just have a regular dumb phone for phone calls. But if an 18 year old makes that choice now, they're being empowered to see what health looks like versus a 12 year old. I'm not letting my 12 year old decide that. It's like, here's what we're going to do and here's why. And as they grow, that relationship keeps developing and changing.

Yeah. One of my former group members and a good friend of mine told me that they tried inviting their kids into the conversation of what should healthy online life look like in our household and talk about it as a family. Because, Ashley, what you're talking about, and maybe you're referencing this, but there's a circle router that you can get that picks up all that stuff, whoever's on your wifi, that, you know, you can basically flag stuff. But I think that that is also important that that's created for the family, not just for the kids. That mom and dad are also in that they also have the accountability software and that also it's a family decision. It's not just because dad struggled. Everyone else has to now be monitored. It's no, no, no. We want all of us to be healthy. We want all of us to have online habits that are pushing us into health and not away from it. So we're all going to do this collectively. And so, yeah, of course, not letting your 12 year old say, well, I think that this is what we should do. Instead of that saying, okay, what do you guys think? This is kind of where mom and dad are at. This is what we're thinking for our family. What are your thoughts? What can we do to stay healthy online as a family? And then there's a little bit more of that, like buy in that you get. And someone maybe at 12 or 13 starts to take more of that ownership because they're like, hey, I was a part of this decision.

Yeah. And I love when you see the ones that are kind of in betweeners. Like of course the little ones, they have like really not a ton of say, but we explain it and we do it as a family. And then with the teenagers when I took their social media off, so basically their phones, I can track them and they can call and they can text. They've lost everything else because of their grades. Not porn, but they've lost everything. And I think it's cool to but explaining those logical things and those natural things first, that you know it's going to help your brain be more engaged with school and and then for them to see their behaviors change and they come to us and they say, I actually think it's a good idea you've taken this off and they've lost it till summer. So it's like no light sentence. Like they don't get their stuff back until summer. And I love when they come back and say I've actually noticed the change because we took the time ahead of time to explain how we've seen their phones change them and what we think it will do if we try taking these things off and then when they notice it and come back and say, okay, we've seen the change, we're paying attention more in class, it's just like super parenting win. And that's hopefully going towards that 18 year old age where when they start feeling out of control again, they can say, okay, remember my mom and dad did this and it worked to help me stay focused. So I'm going to do it again. But you have to explain the why. Not just because I said or because you were bad or because you failed.

Right?

Yeah, you have to explain the why. That's a good one. Someone could tweet that out. So another along the lines of Disney's the Circle, there are other home monitoring devices like that one that I think has no cost is if you just go to open DNS when you're at home, you can set up your home WI fi router just to block content and certain ratings and it's not as foolproof. That's why it's basically free, because it's a little easier to get around, but it's at least a minimal level of hey, we're helping our kids understand that just because the Internet is a wide open world doesn't mean that's healthy for any of us. And again, I love what you said, Ashley, about having those conversations as a family to just say this is what health looks like in a digital age. It's not because we're mad that someone's making Bad decisions. So along those lines, Ashley, what else would you say about accountability? What does accountability look like between parents and their kids?

Well, I think, you know what, we've already talked about how you approach your kids and monitoring stuff. But then to piggyback off what Trevor said, some things like what you were talking about with your 12 year old, it is just a parent decision and I've said that with my kids too. Okay, we've explained this, we've talked about it and now it's executive parent decision. I'm making the choice because I know it's better for your brain and they just have to go with that. But other things that are more of a family decision, I often invite my kids to help hold me accountable and say, you know, I'm not perfect. You know, sometimes I eat too many sweets or I spend too much time on social media when you're trying to talk to me and show me things or I'm not paying attention to you while we're playing games because I'm on my phone or I shouldn't have my phone in bed either because nobody should have their phone in bed and so on, things like that. I like to invite my kids in on that. And I've had my 7 year old come up to me and be like, mom, put your phone out of your bed. It's supposed to be downstairs because your brain needs a rest. And when you hear your phone being then that means not paying attention to daddy or me. And so you know, I like being able to let them see that and I think that's what creates that language of like what are you struggling with and how are you doing with your thing and just being able to have that talk. My 7 year old often talks about his struggles and so does my 8 year old. And it's just, that's just normal life that we're going to have something we struggle with.

I think too owning that if they like, if they catch you or even if you catch yourself doing something, apologize for that. Make that not in a sense where it's like, hey everyone, look, I just messed up. But in a way saying, hey, look, this is what I was doing. I realized it was wrong and here's what I'm gonna do to try to change it. Because then they see you not only being able to identify what was wrong, but they also start to see the action steps that you're actually doing what you said you're gonna do. There's follow through there. So if you, it's just a way to like include them in on the process. They're not necessarily doing it for you, but they get to watch it and they're more aware of what's going on.

And I've talked to my kids ahead of my teenagers especially. You don't confront me about my issues when you see steam coming out of my ears. If you don't throw it in my face when I'm super mad at disciplining you, but come back to me and timing is everything and say, hey, when you did that, it really hurt my feelings. Or I thought this was a deal for a family. And they've really learned that difference because it's a good opportunity to teach them timing when they need to talk to somebody and not just point out somebody else's faults, that we're not pointing each other's faults out, but we're holding each other accountable in a healthy way because we love our family and we love each other.

Well, I think it's important really that everyone have some kind of accountability software. We've talked about it a little bit, but this idea that the Internet should be available for anyone to go anywhere, anytime, I mean, that's really dangerous to all of us, no matter whether we're talking about issues of pornography or gambling or just the stuff that's on there, that when we have a feeling that I'm alone, no one has to know I'm isolated. We all make bad decisions if we're continually in that kind of environment. So just creating a home environment that says we're aware of where we go online and we're all as a family doing this. And so the three primary software options that are out there are covenant eyes accountable to you. That's what the number two accountable to you are ever accountable. And all three of those have family plans that you can put them on all your devices, your phones, your tablets, your computers. You can set them up to determine who's the accountability partner for which devices. So they're customizable. And these are all available on the App Store, whether you're on iPhone or Google. Just you can read the pros and cons because they're all a little bit different. They all take a little different approach, a little different pricing. Some are annual, some are monthly. So it will cost you a little bit, but it's well worth the investment in your family, in the home environment, and just to creating an atmosphere again that for all of us, we want to be accountable to one another where we go online and for all those brands, if you enter pure desire when you're getting it you kick back a little bit to us, which is awesome. And with at least a couple of them, you get a discount on the price in it, too. I know. Covenant Eyes, you get a free month, which is a perk there. So we don't necessarily say one is the best. I think different situations, there's different ones we say are the best. But to go with one of those three brands and say we're doing this for the whole family, there's wisdom there, and it does create an expectation for your kids that just being online doesn't mean I'm alone, and that's a healthy mindset to develop.

So let's wrap this up, guys. We've talked, you know, quite a bit about this now, and I think that. I mean, I do. I think that if anyone listening, you're going to be encouraged about how to process this, how to go through this, how to handle this. But maybe they're still just exhausted. They're at the end of their rope. This is the last thing that they wanted. I know just thinking about if I was in this situation, knowing my struggles and my past addiction, I would be so sad. I would be so hurt and so bummed. So for anybody out there that's listening right now, what's our final encouragement to that person?

My encouragement would be to constantly, as a parent, be filling your head with knowledge and be surrounding yourself with people that have gone through what you've gone through in a healthy way. Because I find that when I am constantly reading books on the teenage brain and the heart and boys and all this good information, that it's kind of like downloading into my brain. So then as opportunities come, I can just organically speak to that instead of trying to just lecture them off of my shallow knowledge. And then also to take the time to invest. When you have to talk to your kids about something, it's. It's emotionally draining. It takes a lot of time when you have to set up monitoring stuff. I hate technology. I actually schedule it on my day to block off, like four hours to set up one little device, because I know I'm going to have to talk to customer service. And so just be willing to make that investment and know that it will be an investment that gives back with your kids.

That's a good word. And what comes to mind for me is the quote, when's the best time to plant a tree? And it's 50 years ago. When's the second best time today? And you think about this, well, when's the best time to start having Conversations with your kids. Well, first grade. But if you're listening and you've already got a 14 year old and you feel like, man, I've missed so many opportunities, the second best time is today. So my encouragement is don't wait. Don't feel like I've got to go read a bunch of books and become an expert and figure out the right, like just open the door to some conversations. I think about my own story as a teenager where I was getting caught up in some stuff that really I didn't want to be. And I think about how many opportunities one of my parents or other trusted adults in my life if they'd have just come up and said, nick, how are you doing in this area? And really been honest and sincere. I mean, yeah, I might have tried to avoid it, but I know there are many times it would have been like, well, yeah, it's not great. And I'm struggling and what I regret, and I don't blame people for this, I don't think they had the language, they didn't have the tools, is that no one even asked the question. No one even gave me the chance. And I think of how different my story could have been. And so if you're listening and you're that adult in someone's life, whether they're parent or you're an aunt or an uncle that they love and you have that permission in their life to be pretty honest with them today, tomorrow, this weekend, just walk in their room and say, hey, how are you doing? Specifically in this area, could we talk? And just let them know you care and you're with them. Don't wait because you've already got more tools than you think you have. And you really could make a huge difference in starting that conversation with your kids or other kids that God has put into your life where you might have that role.

Yeah. Last thing I would say is that you're not alone, that this happens to so many parents. They find themselves in this situation. So if this happens, you can freak out a little bit, but don't freak out a lot of it. Understand that you're not alone. This is not something that is only you. And you need to hear this. You absolutely need to hear this. This does not make you a bad parent. It does not make you a bad parent. So I really want the listeners to understand that this doesn't mean that you need to go back to the drawing board and redo everything and basically try to reformat your entire family and everything. Like that's not it. Really start to put the things into practice we talked about in this episode and really start to be open and honest and create that culture of grace. But just do not feel the shame. Don't let that shame compound on you. Because this, this isn't ultimately your responsibility. This is something that you didn't show your kids porn. You didn't push them into this. And so if you're working on your health and you're working on being open and honest and accountable with your family, then this is not your responsibility. And just know that the Lord is in this. So just continue to work hard. Gosh, this situation is not one we want to be in. But I think that it's true that if we don't prepare for it, we're going to miss a huge opportunity to bring healing. We have the opportunity to either shame or bring healing to our kids. I don't think that there's a middle ground. And so I think that we need to be prepared. And look, we all need to know how to live in this world that's sexually saturated. We need to know how to do it healthy. I want to mention a couple things, just resources for listeners. Our book, Digital Natives. It's a book on better understanding the Internet and how to help your kids, your family have a healthy online habits. We'll have that link to that in the show notes. And then also we've talked about some accountability software. Accountable to you. Covenant Eyes, Ever accountable. We'll have that stuff in the show notes as well. Know that if you use that code, PureDesire, when you check out, we will get a financial kickback, but you also will get some added benefits for you. So just remember, it's not about keeping our kids from the world, but it's about teaching them and showing them how to live a godly and healthy life in the world. So, Nick, Ashley, thanks guys. Appreciate it.

Yeah, thank you.

Great job, you guys. Way to go.

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