079 - Leading Betrayal & Beyond

Welcome to the Pure Desire podcast where we partner with you to bring hope and freedom on your journey to purity. Before we jump into today's episode, we wanted to let you know about a brand new resource, Mended. One couple's journey from betrayal to imperfect beauty. Mended is the story of Rick and Tiffany Bowman. This story is how God healed a marriage that was destroyed by betrayal and and turned it into a powerful picture of his grace and healing. This testimony of relationship that went from broken beyond repair to rebuilt by God's mighty hand will give you practical tools on how to strengthen your marriage and find true intimacy. There is hope. When God works a miracle. Anything can be mended. To pick up your copy of Mended, visit PureDesire.org Mended enjoy the podcast. Hey there. I'm your host, Trevor Windsor. And we're so thankful you're taking time out of your day to hang out with us. I'm here with my co host, as always, Nick Stumbo.

Scooby dooby dooby doo.

Oh, my gosh. Well, I feel embarrassed.

Today we are joined by one of our favorite people, Ashley Jameson. Ashley.

Ashley. I'm gonna make it.

Ashley.

Gonna make it.

Ashley's our women's international groups coordinator and she's a member of our speaking team and she is not a member of the mystery.

The mystery gang. That's too bad.

Thanks for being here, Ash.

Hi.

So today's episode. I can't. I gotta stop. So we. You've been doing. We've been doing this for a long time. This is gonna be episode 79. I've had a lot of introductions. That one was very, very unexpected. And I'm gonna tell you, this is. I'm gonna be very honest. This is full vulnerability for all listeners. And for you, Nick. I laughed almost more at how bad the impression was. Just as much as I laughed because I thought it was a good intrigue.

Wait, was that full vulnerability because you were being so critical of me? Yeah, I thought the voice was gonna come out a little better. I think it's good to know, though. I don't rehearse these, believe it or not. Like, I don't stand at home and work on it in the mirror for 10. Like, they just come out. And sometimes they come out pretty good. And other times, like, yeah, what was that?

Some of our listeners are gonna be super disappointed. Okay, let's keep moving. We can do this. So today's episod. This episode is going to be focused on leading betrayal and beyond groups. These groups are for women who are betrayed Spouses of a sex addiction. But if you're a man, listen, stick with this on this episode. This information is helpful to better understand the healing process for betrayed spouses. But look, it also helps us in understanding how to best set up groups and get them going in the most effective ways. So BNB groups help women process the pain of betrayal, allow for healing of their hearts, and really to work toward restoration of their relationship. And I think that not only do women who want to lead these groups need this information, I think this can be helpful for everybody. So Ashley, because she has been a betrayed spouse and a leader of these groups, will be giving us her insight and help as we dive into this topic. So let's just jump in right away. Ashley. We've had these episodes, a few of them now, on leading pure desire groups. So let me just kind of ask this general question about it. What does someone benefit when they lead a pure desire group?

I know for a fact that when somebody leads a pure desire group, they get a level of healing and encouragement and joy that they can't by just being a regular group member. And I know Nick touches on this in his conference session about that. We take the same comfort we receive from our heavenly father, and we pass it along to others. So if God's telling us to do it, then we can be assured that it's really good for us. And just on, like, a realistic note, I am such a quitter. And I'm like, in month seven of my betrayal and beyond group right now, and if it was just me going, I'd be done. Like, I finished my antibiotics or I don't. You know, I stopped taking my antibiotics before they're supposed to be done, because when I feel good, I'm done doing stuff like that. And so for me personally, leading a betrayal and beyond group was the very first time I had actually stayed with a group from beginning to the end, especially such a long group, because there was this accountability and responsibility as a leader that I was. I was going for not only myself, but for other women who were counting on me. And it was really good for me. And I see that all the time with women. They, you know, we actually recommend that men and women take the group once or twice. And the second time through, you can be like, I've already done this before. My kid has a soccer match or whatever. And it's really important that you go through that second time. So if you're leading and you're in a healthy enough place to lead, it just helps you remember why you're going not only for yourself, but for somebody else. And it's. It's a really cool feeling to be able to see people change.

When I think about for how many men and women in groups, part of the issue that drives us into our behaviors is this performance mode that we think we have to perform well to be loved. We have to perform well enough for people to accept us. And leading a group can actually be a way to kind of change that mindset that says I don't have to be perfect before I can lead, that God can use me long before I'm perfect, when I'm still just making strides in my own recovery. God uses me in my brokenness and in my willingness just to share what I'm learning with others. And it really breaks that mold of I have to have it all together. And when we see God use us. And the other thing I would say about it too, is when we lead the material, we learn differently. There's something about feeling that responsibility of I'm helping others through this, that it's actually going to speak to our own story more than we expect. So I just would echo what Ashley said. It's going to build into your own recovery more than you expect. And if you don't take that step, you'll miss out on that opportunity.

Absolutely.

So, Ashley, on a betrayal and beyond group when someone is thinking about leading, what are they looking to help the women in the group do? What kind of outcomes or what is the role of the leader in helping.

Women in the group take the pressure off of yourself? Your role is just to create that environment that they can come and discover the same kind of healing that you were able to discover through a group. You don't have to know everything. You don't have to know all the answers. But if you can just facilitate the group and then just by simply you sharing your answers first and sharing your journey through each, each question that you answer, they're going to see that as an example of somebody who's been where they were and now has a little bit more healing, a little bit more joy. And that's going to give them hope. Because for myself, I remember thinking, I cannot live like this. I cannot live with somebody and have no physical or mental or spiritual attraction to him. I feel so let down. And is this how my life is going to be for the rest of my life? And so even just having the group, my group members tell me, it is so encouraging to see where you are at with your husband and to hear your answers from when you first started going through this, we can't even believe it's the same person. And it gives us so much hope that things can really change and feelings can change and trust can be rebuilt. And I think that's the biggest thing you offer women is you are somebody who's actually been there and can actually say to them, if you do this, things will change for you if you really pour in the time and your energy into this.

Yeah. And for me, when I think of this question, I think of when I went into college and I was playing sports, the upperclassmen were able to help me figure out what that balance looked like. Like, okay, we're supposed to work out this time. We're supposed to do classwork at this time. This is when practice is, I don't know how to do it. But because people have, and maybe, maybe someone, because some of my good friends were only a year older than I was, so they've only experienced one year of this process, but they still can say, okay, this is what we learned last year. So it's not just, you know, it is facilitating, but it's also, here's where I messed up or here's where I tripped up as well, and here's how I can help you avoid those same pitfalls or failures, because I've been there before you.

Well, I feel like a little bit of a broken record on the podcast, but again, I would say a leader's role here is so much about culture that they are establishing the culture in that group. It's not about expertise or having it all together, but creating an environment of grace, of acceptance, of truth telling, of loving one another and responsibility, taking responsibility for my change and my commitments, and encouraging others to do the same. The environment and culture of a group is predominantly created by the leader. So that's where I think our experience when we've experienced a group where there's that gracious acceptance, that love for who we are, and yet still a healthy responsibility to do my work and show up prepared. We're able to take that to a group that's brand new because they maybe have never been in a healthy, small group and they don't know what to expect. So just bringing that culture in is so important.

Yeah. So let's say someone wants to lead a betrayal and beyond group. And obviously, I'll just tell you right now, men do not lead this group. This is something that we have for women. So if women want to lead a BNB group, what are the qualifications for that?

Well, what is going to help get somebody Started on the right foot. And to really help them feel supported and equipped to lead a group, I feel like, is to have your church support. So having somebody in your church, maybe a ministry leader or the pastor, if you're closer to them, it usually kind of depends on church size. Who's, you know, your oversight is huge. To have somebody that you can go to if you're having difficulties in the group and if you just need to check in for your own spiritual health to maybe help you understand just the. Just the nuts and bolts of leading a group in a church, the room to really be connected with somebody in your church is going to be good. I loved being able to go to my pastor when I had really difficult situations in group because you can go to pure desire for group questions, for guidance, for best practices. But when it came down to you're working with people in sometimes their most volatile state, I mean, you're talking about husbands and wives and things can get nasty. And it was so helpful to be able to go to my pastor and say, this is what's going on in the group. And for them to even usually know who those people are and be able to come alongside me and just support me or give me advice was huge. And then, of course, having been through the material before, is recommended that you've gone through the group once yourself and if you're at a good place then, and good place, meaning you've gained traction, you're using the tools, you agree with the material, that kind of good place, not that you have your whole life together, but that you've gone through it and you've made some good strides, that alone equips you to lead. And then having somebody that you can stay supported with another group leader or your regional group leader, if that's the only other person you know that's led.

A group before, you know, as I think of some of the qualifications, one of the things that comes to mind for me, and again, any group is just the leader has to be willing to stay on task. You know, they have to follow the group guidelines, follow the group time, help women or men, if it's a men's group, you know, answer their questions. If the group leader is the one leading the way in rabbit trails and telling unrelated stories like that whole group is going to derail really fast. And that's where someone with even not that much experience might lead. Well, if they're just there to say, hey, I'm going to keep us focused on where we're headed here, really believing that it's the progress through the material that's going to help us out. And it makes me think, too, on the qualification side, Ashley, a question I'd throw back to you. I would think some women listening maybe feel like, well, my husband isn't in recovery, or my husband's not doing better, or my husband left me. I'm maybe not qualified. And then on the other end, you might have other women saying, well, my husband's struggle was never really that bad. So I don't know if I could help women who have a really bad struggle. Maybe I shouldn't lead. So you can kind of have either extreme. What might you say to these women? Does it matter what your spouse is doing to determine whether or not you're qualified to lead a group?

Well, that is a little. That's a question that we get a lot because what we teach in group is that you cannot control somebody else's behavior. You really are able to control yourself, and you're able to articulate your needs and share that in a honest, you know, calm way with somebody else and what you need out of the relationship, that ultimately that person is responsible for their behavior. And so we never want to punish a woman who's working really hard on, on herself and, and, and doing the things that she can do to keep herself and her children healthy because her husband isn't participating. So I have actually had that question before, and, and no, we don't want to punish somebody for that. So it really does come down to, are you in the group for yourself? You're not there to be a savior for other women. Like, that's been a thing too. I've been going through this for 20 years, and I just want to be there to help other women. That's great. That's why we're all there. But you also need to be there for yourself. This group will not work if the leader is not able to engage and answer the questions for themselves on any level. If they're only there to help other women, it won't really work. And so I always suggest, try to avoid phrases like, well, this doesn't apply to me. This has never happened. Just answer the question according to how it did happen and not try to isolate yourself from the rest of the group. But just, just answer question how it did happen. If they're no longer with that person, then answer it to when, when they were, when you were with that person. Don't, don't start answers with that. That doesn't apply to me, or that. That's really not a good Phrase for group. I mean, every once in a while. Yeah, but when you have somebody that's constantly doing that, it makes it really hard to feel like you can open up to that person.

Yeah, yeah. So, and kind of a follow up question to that. What about a woman who's never been married, still single or has been divorced for a while? Can they lead a group? Same answer to them or anything you would want to add for women that are in that situation.

I. It always goes down to how much that woman who's leading is there for themselves and, and how open and vulnerable they can be and also just nurturing that environment. We have group leaders, we have regional group leaders that are divorced or their marriage didn't work out and sometimes it's not their fault their husband's left them and they found so much comfort in this group and getting their hearts repaired and their minds renewed and helping their kids the best way they can. So being divorced or single does not disqualify you. I've been divorced. And you still need that healing even if your marriage didn't work out. Again, just use your answers to answer according to how it was when you were married. And of course some of the questions in the book are going to be looking forward. And sometimes the women will like the reconciliation ones might be if I ever am in a relationship again or if it's activities that you do with your spouse for relationship. A lot of single women or divorced women will have a close friend that they're building relationship with in order to avoid isolation. And so just kind of applying that however it fits for your life.

Well, I think it's super important for single women to hear that because they may inadvertently be getting the message that this is only for married women. And yet if you're single, you've likely dated or had significant relationships where things did not go well or you felt betrayed, there was a breaking of trust. And so if you're entering into marriage with those issues and relationships undealt with, chances are the marriage won't go super well. And then you're in betrayal and beyond trying to work through it. But what if the single woman could kind of process some of that pain or grief or anger or bitterness and deal with, you know, what is my responsibility, what do I need to let go of, what can I can control, what can't I? And how that might prepare her to be in a healthy marriage one day? And so even if her current situation isn't a spouse who's betraying her, the principles and tools she's going to learn are what will equip her to have that. That healthy marriage. So for single women as well, I think it's really something to consider both being in the group and as they're able and ready, then to consider leading a group as well.

Yeah. So if someone is at this place where they're like, okay, I'm ready. I want to do it. I want to lead this group. What sort of materials do they need in order to lead Betrayal and Beyond?

We will hook you up. We will make sure you're supported. We'll make sure you have everything you need. The very, very, very first thing you should do if you want to lead a group is to register your group on our website. Go to our website and register your group. You're not necessarily registering your group. You don't have to know everybody that's in it and your head count and all of that, as much as you're just registering yourself as a group leader and that you are going to have a group. And what that does is it makes sure that we stay connected with you and that we're able to offer support. And anytime you have a question, we can answer questions, because we know that if you start your first group in a way that follows the pure desire model and you're able to tackle issues on the front end, that you'll have more successful groups, and they'll probably just grow naturally because women will get healing and then their friends will see that, and it will just kind of multiply because health is attractive and it's contagious and people want that. And so we've just found that when we can invest in leaders on the front end, it really helps. So once you register your group, you get a digital copy of the Leaders Guide and that will walk you through each chapter, give you suggestions. We also provide a complimentary phone call, and we will answer any questions, any hesitations. We want you to feel completely prepared and equipped and supported, and for you to know that you have somebody you can reach out to if you need help. And then I always shoot off a big list of certain podcasts that I think are great for leaders as they're starting, and that will vary depending on which group you're leading. And so if it's Betrayal and Beyond, I'll give some suggestions. And also we have a chance to talk to the leader if they have any other questions. And we know there's other podcasts that would connect with that. We're able to give them that, too. So if you just start, if you can just Remember to register your group. Then we will help you to make sure that you have everything else you need in order to start the group. But really, in order to be part of the group and lead the group, you need the workbook and the journal just like everybody else in group, because you're going to be using that to answer your questions and leading the group by example through your own work.

And we'll have some of that stuff in the show notes as well for any listeners.

So, Ashley, do you think a leader needs to fill out a new workbook? Do leaders reuse the workbook from when they weren't the leader? Either way, what do you suggest along those lines for women that are trying to think, well, should. Should I order everything again or just the journal? What do you recommend there?

You know, we talk to leaders all over the world, and they tend to have their own little style. I mean, the biggest thing is to make sure that you have your answer to share with the group and that you're participating in the work. But what I found to be best is that you go through the workbook and the journal completely. The first time I found a lot of benefit in going it completely through it again the second time, all the way so that I could compare my answers and I could work through it a second time. Because that first year, you're kind of coming out of a fog. You're learning boundaries, you're connecting dots. And the second time, you have a really clear mind and you've probably gained some healing in your relationship or in yourself. If you're single and you're able to answer the questions a little bit, like a level deeper, kind of that lower onion layer, and you'll have different answers. Now that I've led the group several times, I don't rewrite my answers because I'm almost a little bit removed where I can't put that same emotion down. And I found that my women in group, they like my answers from before. They like the ones that are really emotional and connect with where they're at. And the answers now just don't do that. And so I use my old workbook, but I get new journals, and I make sure to do that weekly work every week. The faster scale that's always brand new, the promises, the thankful things, those activities that are weekly, I do those fresh every week. And then I reread through all my old answers in the workbook and I add anything else that I may remember now that I didn't the first time I went through it. So that's how I do it. And other people just like to get a new workbook every time, and that's okay, too.

Well, and the thing with using the same workbook a second time is that if you can identify, even when you're sharing your answers, this is something I added this year that I didn't last year. That also can show maybe the progress that you've made. It can show not only you the progress that you're making, but also communicate to your group or group members, like, look, this is working. Like, this stuff works in my life, and that's why I'm here. It's not just, you know, I'm trying to make money or I'm trying to just do this to get a crown on, you know, get a jewel on my crown. Like, it's not that. It's like, no, I believe in this stuff, and this is a way to practically show it.

Yeah. And Trevor, I think what you're saying too, is that it would. It helps the. It really just emphasizes to your group members why it's so important to go through a second time. Because if you're writing something big that you missed the first time, they're going to want to get that, too. So it will encourage them to go through a second time.

Yeah. And I like what you said, Ashley, about the weekly tools, because I think it's very important that a group leader shows I'm still in the group for my own health and ongoing recovery and maturity that I haven't, like, finished and now I'm done. And I'm just leading you that I'm continuing to be aware of my emotions. I'm making phone calls, I'm considering where can I grow in my relationships? And as they see that in you, their leader, it's going to encourage them to be a growing person as well. And not to see this as a journey that they're trying to get to the finish line, but more about a journey they're just on for the rest of their lives. Not meaning they'll be in group the rest of their lives, but we want to be growing, maturing people the rest of our lives. And as a leader, you have an opportunity to show that. So, Ashley, talk for a minute to the guys that are listening out there. What if their wife or fiance or girlfriend is starting to talk about leading a betrayal? And beyond group, what would you say to those guys in terms of how they could support or encourage the woman in their life?

Well, just practical advice. If your wife wants to lead a group and it's an evening Group and maybe you have to pick up kids or dinner or do something that she normally would do, be willing to do that because the healthier the couple can be, the healthier the whole family is going to be. And so sometimes I do get a little weary and frustrated and just human when it's like John has to go do something like, ugh. But then when I remember it's for his own self care or his own health and his own recovery, and that's only going to be an investment in our family and our relationship, then it puts a different mindset, you know, in me that I want to be part of that. And then also to not to not be afraid of what they're going to share. And I know that goes both ways. I've heard women that their husbands want to lead, it's like, well, you know, how's he going to talk to me? And I know somebody in their group and I don't want him to talk bad about me in front of that person or for them to know my sex life. And you know, that that, that takes a little bit of working through. But the benefits of allowing your wife or girlfriend or fiance to have a safe place where she can just work through stuff is going to be so good. And eventually you won't even be thinking of those things of what she's sharing because you have a healthier spouse or girlfriend and you see the benefit that everybody needs a safe place to share their stuff. Everybody does. And that will make a healthy family well.

And then understand that this is their ministry. Like it becomes a ministry for so many people because they've come and they're coming out of brokenness and pain and difficulty and maybe even addiction. And it's like, look, I'm now free and now I want to help other people get to this point where restoration is possible. It becomes a ministry. And so in a lot of ways it could be a beautiful thing for God using your, whether it's your wife or girlfriend or fiance, like it can be such a huge thing. And if you support that, then you're supporting her pouring back in and doing ministry for the kingdom, which I think you can never go wrong doing that.

Right?

Yeah. And I think it may also be important just to recognize that for your spouse, for, for your girlfriend, fiance that's doing this, it may not necessarily be easy. I mean, if they're not particularly wired for care and compassion and walking this journey. I mean, for my wife, it was hard to keep entering into our story. I mean, even though we had incredible health and growth. It was still kind of hard to sometimes have to re. Dig up parts of the story. It's like, okay, here we go through this part again. And to hear the pain in other women's lives that she'd gone through, I mean, it's a very emotional, heavy process at times. And so I. And I'm not saying I always did this perfectly, but one thing I started to see was I just needed to try to find ways to recognize the burden that she was willing to take on, to encourage her in that, to thank her for that, to remind her that she was helping these women. That because she'd come home some weeks, be like, I don't know if I did anything good. I mean, they're all hurting so much and oh, man. And like, you know, you listened, you reminded them it's gonna get better. You encourage them to keep moving forward. I mean, that means so much more than you realize. And then finding ways, if I could, to either the day of or the day after just to make her life a little easier in that awareness, that emotional heaviness wears us out. And so, like I said, I didn't always do it perfectly, but where I could to see when I can support her in that by making her life a little easier, I think that makes it better for them in their leadership experience. So to be aware for your wife, girlfriend, spouse, it's not going to be easy all the time. And just taking a role there to support and encourage is really helpful.

Yeah. Okay. So, Ashley, what are some best practices for women who've identified? They want to go in, they want to lead these groups, they want to do this ministry. What are some best practices for them?

You know, we talk about these a lot. Best practices, group guidelines, confidentiality. If you cannot keep a secret, this is not the group for you to lead. You have to be able to keep a secret to be able to keep what's talked about in group in group and not feel like I just learned something really juicy and I have to share it with somebody. So you have to be able to hold that confidentiality really high. Setting aside two hours a week for your group, making sure that you invest the time into doing your work, because I cannot stress enough that you will lead by example. So if you're constantly coming to the group late, you're filling out your faster scale as women are walking in, oh, I didn't do that drawing exercise because I don't like drawing. You have to lead by example, because whatever you do, your group is going to follow. And so really Invest in it and be. And be prepared for that. And so if you're not at the place where you can take on a group, then don't just wait until you can do it fully before you do that and then start and end on time. Make sure you're working through all the questions in the workbook and journal. Those are just like practical things that if you follow that pure desire model as we talk about, and I'm sure you can find past episodes of group guidelines, your group will turn out pretty good. If you can just follow those things and allow people to be able to share and, you know, cut any rabbit trails or advice giving off and in a loving way and just direct people back to the workbook, then they'll do good. And I always tell my women, if you invest all the things that are in these group guidelines into this group and we all do the work and we all create a safe environment and we all commit to showing up, I promise you that you will be changed. And I've seen it so many times, I feel like I can make that promise to them because they will come out of that group change. So just stick to the model and allow the group to work.

Yeah, that's good, you know, and I.

Think a best practices just my encouragement would be to. To be in community as a leader, because sometimes we can get a little isolated when we're leading. We feel like we kind of have to be separate from the group. That's not true. So stay engaged with the group, but also with other leaders. And that's why we do the podcasts and we provide the coaching and training because we want to try to have environments where you remember, I'm not alone in this. And so stay connected even as you're leading. And that kind of leads right into the next question. Ashley, what do you think are some of the pitfalls? And I was already getting into one there. But what are some of the pitfalls for women to avoid as they're leading a BNB group?

Some of my ones that I see over and over and over are the inability to say no. So if your pastor or, or women are asking you to lead a group and you don't have the bandwidth or you're not quite done and you're like, well, I'll just start another one on Thursdays, and you're just constantly doing, doing, doing, you're going to get burned out. So protect your schedule and know that if you're not healthy, then you're not going to be able to sustain a group. So really Maybe even have somebody that you can talk things out with. Do you think I can handle doing another group? John is great for bouncing those kinds of things off of. If you are a fixer and you want to. You care more about having a ministry than you do about using your story to help other women. That's going to be really detrimental if you're. If your goal is to just have a. I guess a baby, you know, like, this is your baby and this is your ministry, and you want to be able to lead women. And you always saw yourself as a leader, and your whole idea is to be this great leader for women. It's not going to work. You're really just sharing your story and helping other women find what you found. So that. And then advice giving, wanting to fix people, that's probably the number one advice giving will destroy a group so fast. Let people find their own answers, meet consistently. You start skipping groups and setting that tone of, we're not going to meet this week, or I'm just, you know, I have so much to do. Your group will fall apart. So be consistent, Allow people to find their own answers, stick to the guidelines, make sure your heart is right, of why you're even wanting to lead, and then make sure that you're keeping yourself balanced. So for me, I have to have another kind of Bible study. I need to give my brain a break from recovery work. And I love to go to Bible study fellowship and just dive into the Bible and not be the leader. I love sitting there quiet and not having to talk, and that keeps me really balanced for myself.

Yeah. One of the things that. And this is speaking from experience as a group leader that I struggled with, that is a huge pitfall, is if you start to take responsibility for the progress or lack thereof of your group members, then it will weigh you down and it is not your responsibility. Your responsibility. And if it helps, you know, Bob and Rebecca Vandermeer, two of our clinicians, say that they don't even like the term leader. They would prefer facilitator. And if that's what you need to adopt, is just someone who shows up and helps guide the conversation. Because a leader can sometimes that even just that word can carry this weight or this. Like, I'm supposed to be the one who's literally carrying these people to freedom. And it's like, no, you're not. You're just supposed to be modeling what it looks like to be consistent and doing the work. And so I think that that's one thing I would just encourage any group leader, especially a BNB leader, because look, these women are coming in just broken. They are ready to leave their husbands, they're at their, you know, wits and they don't know what to do. Listen, you have to trust the process too. You have to trust the process of them doing work and you can't take responsibility for their recovery because it's not yours.

Yeah. I think I would just add to that a follow up that we want to make sure we don't over function and we've said it on the podcast that we don't care more about their recovery than they do. So if we're helping write someone's recovery action plan for them, if we're keeping track of their guardrails for them, if we're constantly checking in, how are you doing today? How are you doing today? I mean, it's one thing to call and tell a person, I'm thinking about you, I care about you. How's this week going? That's great. But if you are more committed to their health than they are, it's going to lead to big problems. So sometimes we do have to just take, whether in a men's group or a women's group, a deep breath and say, they're floundering a little, but I think I need to let them because if I step in, I'm fixing it for them and they'll let me fix it for them and I can do, I could help, but this is an area they're going to need to take that responsibility. So just, just be aware that you're not over functioning but you're really there to support and encourage someone else in their journey.

Yeah. And don't be afraid to have that conversation about asking somebody to leave if they're not doing the work, if they're not participating, if they are being destructive in the group, that you really need to keep the group safe and not jeopardize that for one person who isn't serious about their healing.

Yeah. We have an episode on dismissing group members about three episodes ago. So you can go back and listen to that if that is the situation you find yourself in. I think that as people, especially in the church, being believers, understanding that progress is important, I think especially when you take on a leadership role. That's the same kind of thing. I want to develop, I want to grow, I want to change as a leader. What kind of resources do we have available to help women leading BNB groups really develop as group leaders?

Well, my, my very favorite resource is the podcast because I feel like that's we stay so current with issues because, you know, Rich and I will be taking calls from group leaders all over the world, and it's like, oh, this is a problem. Put another tally mark under another call, another tally mark. And then we're like, hey, Trevor, this is a big issue. Can we do a podcast? So I feel like it's really fast way to get the information out to leaders. And I tell them that upfront that stay connected to our podcast, because if we hear common issues, we're going to address that really quickly in a podcast. And so that's one of my favorite ways. But then also just to make sure that you are staying connected. So our regional group advisors, they, they often will hold Google hangouts with all of the leaders in their area so that, you know, a couple times a year, leaders can get on all the leaders from Idaho or all the leaders from Oregon or wherever you're at, and they can say, hey, what's working for you guys? What's not? What's your win? What's your challenge? Are you feeling burnt out? I am, too. How do you stay connected in summer? And it, I've heard from leaders that they love, that they love to hear what other leaders are going through and then just to constantly be learning, listening to different books or podcasts or reading or learning how to be a good leader in general is going to apply to this area as well. And then the last thing would be if you have Facebook, you could stay connected because we often post links to different things where we're speaking at or, or different events going on or new resources that are just going to help you in that the women's events, the men's events, any of those are going to strengthen your leadership and also just reignite that fire. If you have leaders like you're the, you know, pastor or church ministry staff and you bring your leaders to that, I think it's really encouraging for them.

Well, I think, I think what Ashley's saying is we're here for you. That's really the mission of Pure Desire, is we're here to be your support and encouragement. We don't come and do it for you, but we want to equip you. And so Ashley, you know, this has been so good, I think so helpful. And to anyone listening women out there that are looking at leading betrayal and beyond groups or you're currently leading one, we just want to say to you, way to go. Thanks for having the courage to take that on. Thanks for stepping in maybe when no one else would. And we're with you in this. So thanks for what you're doing. And Ashley, would you leave our listeners today? What's some final encouragement or a word of advice you'd want to give to women out there who want to lead Betrayal and Beyond Grace?

I would say that you can do it. You definitely can do it. If you feel called to do it and you're listening to this and you're feeling inspired, just take that step. Even if you're not sure how it work out or if you're actually going to lead, you're just curious, reach out to us, email us, call us. We would love to just talk that through with you and be able to answer questions and support you however we can. So don't be afraid to reach out, even if you're just thinking about it.

Yeah. So, I mean, take this for what you will. I'm a guy. I've never led a BNB group, but I think that it's important to know that, like, don't wear what's not yours. Restoring marriages, getting these women to the point where they're ready to trust their husbands again is not your job. Your job is not to do that. Your job is to share your experience and to continue working on you. And as you do that, women will follow you. That's what leadership is. As you do the work, as you humbly continue in your process and your journey, people are going to see the change and they're going to want to do that. They're going to want to follow you. So don't wear what isn't yours. And know that it's not your job to restore the marriages. It's your job to share and to model.

That's great. And I think my final encouragement would be to stay aware that when you think about leading a group, there are going to be some past voices that try to creep back in and try to say, you're not good enough. No one would respect you, you know what you've done, or all those things that we battle, they're going to come up. And I think we have to remember we have an enemy. We have an old self that doesn't want to help others. And when those old voices start to come, we need to recognize them for the lies they are. We need to see that the untruth in them and we need to speak God's truth instead, that we're not leading groups because we're so good or awesome or perfect. And so if those voices start up, just look at them and go, no, I'm not listening to that I know who God says I am and if he wants me to do this, I'm open to it. And that's how God can use you. Just having that open heart and life to say, lord, use me however you can.

Yeah. So these types of groups really are essential to a marriage finding its way back to restoration from a sexual addiction. This like it's not, we talk about it all the time on the podcast on everything that we put out, that it's not just okay for just the spouse, the addicted spouse to get healthy. Both spouses have to get healthy. So really you just need to understand that, that it's not just one sided, that both people have to get healthy and have to pursue it. And so leading these groups, look, it's courageous. It's going to be not always easy. Most weeks actually are not going to be easy, but it is going to be worth it. You're investing in the restoration of marriages. So if you're leading groups, we hope this episode gives you the encouragement you need. If you're thinking about leading groups, we hope that this pushes you over the edge. Ready? You're just ready to jump in. So if you're thinking about leading groups, again, we applaud you. And look, if you have further questions, Ashley is really an expert on this stuff and so you can contact her email groupsouredesire.org or you can call 503-489-0230. We'll have that on the show Notes. So don't hesitate to reach out. We're here to support and encourage you because look, we've had so many people who have done this for a long time and we want to help you avoid, avoid the pitfalls and to really do the best practices and really to have the best group experience you can. So, Ashley, thanks so much for really not only just being here today, but investing in your own health and then giving back to other women. Thanks.

Yeah, thank you.

And thank you for listening to the Pure Desire podcast. If you like what you're hearing and want to keep up with the podcast, please subscribe. You can also rate and review our podcast and let us know how we're doing. For more information, check out our website, PureDesire.org. you can follow us on social mediauredesirepdmi. Once again, that's earedesirepdmi. We'll see you next time. Thanks for listening to the Pure Desire Podcast. For more information, check out our website, www.puredesire.org. check in each week for new content on the podcast and we pray that it will help you find hope and freedom on your journey to purchase Sam.