081 - Forgiveness & Sexual Brokenness

Welcome to the Pure Desire podcast where we partner with you to bring hope and freedom on your journey to purity. Before we jump into today's episode, we wanted to let you know about a brand new resource, Mended. One couple's journey from betrayal to imperfect beauty. Mended is the story of Rick and Tiffany Bowman. This story is how God healed a marriage that was destroyed by betrayal and and turned it into a powerful picture of his grace and healing. This testimony of relationship that went from broken beyond repair to rebuilt by God's mighty hand will give you practical tools on how to strengthen your marriage and find true intimacy. There is hope. When God works a miracle. Anything can be mended. To pick up your copy of mended, visit PureDesire.org mended. Enjoy the podcast. Hey there. I'm your host, Trevor Windsor, and we're so thankful you're taking time out of your day to hang out with us. I'm here as always with my co host, Nick Stumbo.

I'm cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs.

Be honest with the listeners. Where do you come up with these?

Honestly, this one, two minutes before the podcast is like, man, I don't have an intro. And that one came to mind. So I was just thinking, you know, full disclosure, what's your favorite breakfast cereal? Is it Cocoa Puffs?

Mine's Cinnamon Toast Crunch.

Ah, that's good. I'd actually say mine's Reese's Puffs.

Okay, good. That's super healthy. Well, we're gonna move on. We have a brand new guest with us today, Scott Bradley. Scott is the senior pastor at as is church here in Portland, Oregon. He's a church planner, author, and a recovery ministry leader. He's the author of Pure Desire's book, the Forgiveness Factor, where he shares his story about he and his family. They found restoration and wholeness from hurt, pain, and betrayal. Pure Desire is proud to publish Scott's book and we'll have a link of it in the show notes. But we'll be talking to Scott today specifically about forgiveness, how it plays out in addiction and betrayal. Scott, welcome to the PD podcast.

Hey, thanks for having me, you guys. It's nice to be with you, Trevor and Nick, and I'm excited to be here.

Right on. So, Scott, some of our listeners probably have no idea who you are. And so with that, how about you just give those people a little bit of your background, little snapshot of your story.

Well, why don't we start off with where I'm at now?

Do it.

I'm celebrating 20 years of marriage this summer with My wife Gwenna, we have two daughters. One is a sophomore in high school and the other is in junior high. So I really don't know much these days. You know, with these daughters it's a. It's just an amazing way.

Just an accessory to their lives, right?

Totally, totally. But what it is wonderful to be a parent. And both of my parents are happily married, involved in their grandkids lives. And we've seen God do amazing things in our family, but it hasn't always been that way. I grew up with a broken home and father in prison. He came back from Vietnam and killed a man and spent most of his life in and out of prison. My mom was married multiple times. Just we went through the wringer. There was a lot of abuse, misuse and abandonment issues. Obviously growing up that way, we traveled a lot, transitioned a lot in life and over time, as I entered into my mid-20s, Christ was calling me home. I did marry my wife and God has just done an amazing work in my family. Both of my parents found Christ along the way. My dad in prison at 50 years old, became a Christian in prison, was released and has never looked back. Just followed Christ wholeheartedly from to this day. He's an elder in his church and chaplain of the Klamath County Jail. And just some amazing things. And we currently have a reconciled relationship. My mom remarried, she's been married for 20 years to a man who loves her as Christ loves the church. And they actually met through four Men Only and Pure Desire ministry. We'll talk about some of that later. So there's a lot of history back even at this ministry.

Match.com we were before it man.

Yes. Yes. Match.com Christian Mingle where they got the hookup. But we've just seen God do amazing things. So I always start out sharing my story, kind of where we're at, set up how God has blessed us. But there's just a long history of trauma, hurt and pain. And forgiveness plays a key part in reconciliation that God has brought to our family.

So Scott, thanks for that snapshot of your life and obviously a lot of different pieces there you can unpack. And I'm sure as we go through the episode, there's different pieces you'll get to tell more about. But we're really focusing in today on this concept or idea of forgiveness. And I think it's a word everybody knows and can kind of throw around in a lot of different situations. But as you think through your experiences and what you put in your book, how do you define forgiveness? What's forgiveness really all about?

I would define forgiveness as canceling the debt owed if we've been hurt or transgressed against. Oftentimes we'll hold that, and we'll hold that over the person who has hurt us. And if we can find the way to forgive them, we would cancel that debt. And that allows us to be set free or at peace somewhat with the transgression that's been done against us. And so forgiveness is many things, but I truly believe it's canceling that debt that someone owes us for the hurt that they've caused us. That's good.

Yeah. I love the idea that the flip side of forgiveness in a lot of ways is bitterness, because bitterness is holding on. And I'm not sure which great author said it, but that idea that bitterness is like drinking poison and hoping the other person gets sick. That when we hold on to it, the effect it has on us is destructive. And so in the flip side, that forgiveness, while it feels like I'm doing something for others, like I'm releasing them, it's really the effect on. It has on us. Like you said, it's the freedom we find because they don't owe us. And letting go of that is such a crucial part of finding freedom in life, whether it's stuff done to us or the ways that we've hurt others.

Yeah, it is. It's like shackles. And it's. In so many ways, the way I've experienced it in life. It feels like it weighs me down, and it feels like it's a cloud that follows me around. And that was really a big thing for me in my life, was that understanding that not forgiving somebody wasn't just hurting them, it was hurting me. It was almost like a block that got in the way of my relationship. Like a blocked artery of my relationship or the flow of my relationship with the Lord and man. Once I learned that, I mean, like, granted, that doesn't make it easy to forgive people, but it definitely flips the paradigm for me and has allowed me. Me to see forgiveness and the value it brings me.

Yeah. And the different. The different levels of forgiveness we talk about, like, in marriage, like, there's the daily forgiveness you offer because you forgot to call your wife back, or the kids forgot to clean up their clothes. You know, okay, that's. But then you get to the bigger transgressions or the bigger hurts and betrayals that happen, the greater the level of forgiveness, the higher price that was paid. You know, like our forgiveness in Christ, it truly cost him, his life, so that we could be forgiven and reconciled back to God. I think about the cost sometimes of forgiveness.

Yeah. So, I mean, anyone who's listening understands pure desire that we're in the realm of sexual integrity. And so in this realm of sexual integrity and sexual addiction, there can be an assumption that forgiveness, if it's given, really can enable someone to just continue struggling. Like, at what point are you allowing them to just continue doing it without consequences? Is that true? And how would you respond to that idea?

I think it's important to define forgiveness like we've done and separate that from reconciliation. You can forgive someone, you can set them free, you can cancel the debt, but that does not require you to be vulnerable to being hurt again.

Okay.

And I think that's one of the things, as a minister and even in my own life and our family, to reconcile that, that forgiveness doesn't mean you're setting yourself up to be hurt again. It's not that you're going to have. Not going to have those feelings and wrestle with that, but opening yourself up, being vulnerable, which is the key to intimacy. But if you're not ready for that and you're still hurting and you're still walking that out, you can still have a clear boundary.

And.

And that basically because I think a lot of churches and a lot of ministers teach forgive and forget. Open yourself up, you know, just get over it. And when you forgive, it's all done. You know, you have amnesia to the whole thing, and I don't think that's true.

So you were sharing quite a bit about your story of a lot of brokenness in your past. Do you have an example or maybe a few examples where forgiveness and reconciliation didn't happen concurrently? They were totally separate events or processes, I should say not an event necessarily.

Sure. I think the greatest one I've experienced was forgiving my uncle who sexually abused me for many years as a child. That was a process of identifying the wound that was created of the sin against me and setting him free, even though to this day he has never owned his actions towards me or towards my cousins or family where there was this molestation and sexual abuse. And even within the family, like my grandparents, never acknowledged the truth of what I was sharing. But during this process of working through my own healing and through FMO and groups like Pure Desire Offers, I was able to discover the strength through Christ to forgive my uncle without ever being reconciled. And then eventually I was able to see him with the eyes of the Father and love my uncle as God loves Him without ever being reconciled. Now, would I go drop my kids off to be babysat by him or something? I would never do that. But I love him. And I've been set free through the power of Christ to forgive my trespasser even when my family denied it, even though many other attributes led to that. That's the power of the gospel and the power of forgiveness to be set free even though we've never reconciled.

You know, it's interesting because in thinking about this question, I was thinking about what Jesus said. And when the disciples came to him and asked him about forgiveness, the thing that's missing in Jesus answer is a contingency point like you, you have to forgive them unless they don't own their sin or unless they've done it to you this number of times, that there's never a contingency plan in place for forgiveness. And, and I love that you've made the distinction between restoration or reconciliation and, and forgiveness, because I think that they can be very different. We've seen broken relationships that still are healthy, but they're not in communion together through Scripture. We've seen that too. But yeah, I just, I look at what Jesus said, and there he just doesn't say you do it, if. Or. But this. It's just. There's no contingency on forgiveness.

Yeah, well, I think what you said is so important as it comes to, like, pure desire groups, because so many people working through a process, whether they're in it because of their own issues and failures or stuff done to them, that forgiveness piece is always a part of the process. And you have people that realize the need to forgive or let go of wounds or deep hurts, but sometimes that person has passed away, they're not even in this world anymore. Or the relationship has been so strained for so long with a parent that now lives in a different part of the country, and they're not in touch, and so they can feel like, well, how can I forgive? It's too late. And helping them see those two kind of processes being different, that forgiveness is about letting go, as you said of my part in holding onto that, having them owe me and just releasing them, that that can be done fully without the other person even knowing. Now, I do try to encourage someone in group that if it is with, say, a relative or a parent that is still alive as they feel led, if it's safe to do so, if it's appropriate to offer that forgiveness to them in a letter or personally, to look for that opportunity. But even in some situations, and maybe in yours. Even if the person is alive and we could approach them, it may not be safe to do so. But we still need to be able to forgive for our part, so that we're able to live and pursue the relationships God has brought into our life. Because that's the other side of this, is if. If we don't let go in that way, if we hold on to unforgiveness, not only is it hindering the relationship with that person, I really believe it hinders all our relationships because we're not able to be fully trusting and fully alive in those relationships because we're still holding onto that hurt. So I really think that's an important point for people listening and processing unforgiveness in their own life.

I discovered that the unforgiveness and resentment and hurt that I carried from 10, 15, 20 years ago was affecting my present relationships, was affecting my marriage, was affecting how I parented my children. And to kind of go through that process and start to release those and identify what was a healthy place to forgive, what was a healthy place to reconcile. And always doing that in community, never alone, which is the power of these groups, you know, and the power of community and the support that we get through doing life together in a safe community. And I think that as you were talking, I'm just going to keep going, do it. As you were talking, I was thinking that's one scenario with my uncle, who lives, who I never have to be in relationship with because he lives in a different part of the state. I think about what I've had to do, the journey of walking this out with my wife, wrestling with my own sexual addiction, wrestling with those things and getting caught up in how do we heal this relationship and the forgiveness that's taken place there. That forgiveness and that reconciliation came with primarily on my part, walking in humility, being fully accountable, offering integrity and accountability in the areas where fear would. Would come up in her life. I would do whatever it takes to move towards her and remove that fear in our relationship by, for example, being accountable with our finances and just submitting to the process, building that trust again by offering myself up. It began with forgiveness, then trust, and then reconciliation as we walk that out together.

Great process.

So I'm sure we have a lot of listeners who've either struggled, as you're bringing up, or they've been betrayed. And they're thinking through some of these issues in their relationship of forgiveness, whether they're the ones seeking forgiveness or needing to offer it. Any thoughts about how long should that take where there's maybe been that hurt or pain inflicted through sexual addiction and behaviors? Any thoughts just how long does the process take?

It takes as long as it takes. For some, there's a quick healing and forgiveness that's offered and there's trust rebuilt, and it moves very quickly. For others, it could take a lifetime to return back to that forgiveness, to return back to those principles that we know are true, but we're not quite there in how we feel it yet. We're not at peace yet. It's. I truly believe there isn't a timeline. There's a process of walking this out together and learning to trust again. I don't believe there's a timeline to it.

Well, I just feel like so often that the church inadvertently shames people into thinking that. And granted, all of us sitting here love the church. This is not something that's not a bash on them. I just think that in our lack of understanding or lack of awareness of what that process maybe looks like, we shame people into thinking, if you don't forgive this person right away, then you're somehow, you're sinning, or you're wrong, or, you know, somehow your life is worse, or you're a worse believer in Christ. You know what I mean? There's just all these different. Like, they almost create these levels inside of Christianity that it's like if you are able to forgive someone right away, you must be holier than the rest, you know, And I don't think that that's the case.

Well, it kind of turns forgiveness into nothing more than a choice. Just. We just have to make the choice to forgive them. And that's certainly part of forgiveness, but it's also an experience or an emotion that I can choose to forgive someone just immediately. But if I haven't really come to a place of conviction where I'm emotionally releasing them and determined to live in that way, I might just as soon the next day, be right back in unforgiveness. But I'm saying, well, I quote, unquote, forgave them. Well, it's a choice we keep making. I love the story of Corrie Ten Boom, who was in a Jewish concentration camp, writes about her experience of forgiving her tormentors. And she describes it like the ringing of a bell, that every time she chose to forgive them, it's like the pendulum of that bell would swing a little slower, a little less, and every day she'd have to choose again to forgive and to forgive and to forgive until there did come a point at which she realized that Swinging Pendulum had become still. And she was able to recognize, I've come to that experience of forgiveness. So it's both a forgiveness and an experience and a choice that when we've been wounded in a relationship and if we're still in relationship with that person, that choice might be made every day over and over. And like you said, Scott, it'll take as long as it takes. And I think if it takes a long time, don't beat yourself up over that. But realize that process is good, it's healthy. It's something we learn and grow from. And so if we have to forgive for a couple of years on end until we actually feel it, well, that's a growing process. And just stay in it. Don't get discouraged.

And we see as we walk this out, not only in our own lives, but as we minister and we spend time in group, there'll be things that trigger those old memories. Even though you've decided to forgive, maybe your wife sees you glance at something and then something's triggered in her. Even though she's forgiven you, those feelings come and she'll express anger or something. It's not that she hasn't forgiven you. It's that there's still things that need to heal and change.

But we get defensive, like, I thought you forgave me and what's wrong?

Exactly, I thought you forgave me. I thought this was a done deal. I thought it was a transaction, when really it's a process.

Well, and thinking about it, too, from someone who's on the struggling side, that you've got people who've hurt you in your life, and those wounds that are there, whether they're intentional or not, and there are things that will come up that will trigger you, and we'll think, like, oh, maybe I didn't forgive that person. And maybe that's true. Maybe you still need to in your heart, extend forgiveness towards those people that wounded you. But to also be aware that those will come up, too for someone who's in recovery, that you'll absolutely have those moments where it reminds you of that one time someone did that one thing to you that really set you off or really started your addiction or fueled it. So just be aware of that, too. So confession, that can be a loaded term, I think, in so many ways. But really what we're talking about is it's the part of turning from our behavior and moving and change, moving towards Christ. So where does asking for forgiveness kind of fit into the confession, I guess.

Process, I think Another way to define confession is to admit an admission. So confession leads to forgiveness. I believe that there's a confession that's typically integrated with an ask of forgiveness, and then there's a repentance piece where there's a turning or turning back. The confession is just owning something. The asking of forgiveness moves us to that place of relationship or brings us to a place of peace beyond the confessions. Because confession, in my mind, admission. Okay, I've made a mistake. Now will you forgive me? You've basically identified your sin. I'm going to confess my sin. I'm going to admit what's wrong, then I'm going to move towards asking for forgiveness. Because you realize through that confession you've created pain or hurt or you've transgressed against someone you care about, whether it's towards your spouse, family, even God. You know, we're to confess our sin to God, and he is just to forgive us, but that's a process with those we love in that confession.

Yeah, I know in my story, I have to realize that I can be too quick to confess. And what I mean by that is I will take on responsibility to try to fix the relationship, to just confess for doing something wrong. But there's not really an awareness on my part of wrongdoing. There's not really an acceptance of my selfishness or my pride or the sins I've committed that have created that problem. It's really just confession to try to manipulate a return of the relationship. And so I've had to kind of unlearn confession as I thought of it as just. That's how you fixed a relationship. You confessed, you asked for forgiveness, and everything was better. But if there wasn't really that awareness of what I needed to turn from and what I really needed to own, that confession wasn't going to help much. And so just for those that maybe are confessing just to try to make it better, maybe take a little more time to think through what am I truly confessing? And is it about trying to change some behavior and make things better, or just to try to put a band aid on a situation and move on?

Because if you're asking for forgiveness, that should be out of a posture of humility, not out of a posture of just trying to get out of it so you're entering in rather than trying to leave, if that makes sense. I think that sometimes we ask for forgiveness like you're saying, just so we can be set free from this person's expectations that weren't met. Where if I'm in humility. I'm actually sitting down next to that person and planting there. Allowing them to have to have a say really in that process and working.

With men and probably my own process in this learning that most people don't confess the full ramifications of what they've done. They might confess. Yeah, I looked at her wrong. When we really have an adultery going on, there's always a minimizing effect. You know, whenever you're walking this out, we're like, we're going to wait for the rest of the story. Because I think there's, if you've been around a while, you understand that it takes time to peel back the layers of even that confession to get down to really what needs to be disclosed. Would you guys agree?

Yeah, absolutely. I know Dietrich Bonhoeffer called that the danger of a cleaned up confession. That how even in confession, that old nature in us that wants to look better than we are or pretend or it just rears up and he's, he kind of comments on it like how silly that is, that even in confessing we're sinners, we still try to look like a good sinner. Like I'm not too bad of a sinner. Like real healing comes when we're willing to just say. And I think that's the power of groups because in like in a marriage or if you're reconciling with someone, it may not be appropriate to share some of the details. It might be too much information. But we need to be careful. We're not withholding the things that do make us look and feel bad because that's part of what can heal us. When in a group we can get totally honest to say, here's the reality of what's going on. And then when people say, you know, in Christ you're forgiven, that forgiveness means something because it's the whole deal, not just the little cleaned up part we were willing to get open about. And yeah, I think we just have to have those places in our life where we almost in a sense, practice confession, practice being completely real about our sin and experiencing grace and forgiveness through others so that we just learn to make that a normal part of our life.

Well, and this is, you know, a plug for being in group and processing, you know, what's going on in your life, understanding that if, if I'm, if I'm able to dive into what's really going on under the surface, then I'm not going to give a half hearted confession or ask for forgiveness for half of what really happened. Because if I'm able to dive in and actually figure out what was at the root of it, I can tell like a full narrative of what happened and give all the details that's there rather than just kind of this, I guess maybe reflection or semi reflection of what actually happened. So I think that going into group and understanding really what happened helps you better understand the actual why I did what I did. And that then will help you to confess what you did.

So Scott, when it comes to sexual brokenness, you talked about some of it in your own story, that abuse. So whether it's things that have been done to us or things that we have done, things of a sexual nature just tend to carry a lot of shame with them. And because of that shame, many people can struggle feeling like they're really forgiven, whether by other people or even by God because of that shame. So what kind of advice or encouragement would you have for someone struggling to believe that they're forgiven?

I believe it begins well, I don't know if it begins there, but an important piece in this is group is having a safe environment to where you're fully known and fully accepted in your most vulnerable place. We don't get that in the world. Growing up in a, in a family with abuse and brokenness shame based family system, I learned early on, at least for me with that shame that I was damaged goods, that I was the problem. Not that I made a problem like guilt, but shame as I'm the problem.

Yeah, there's something wrong with me, I'm.

The reason, there's something wrong with me. I'll never be good enough. Those are the lies that went through my head. Those false beliefs that I had to identify that really drive that shame based mentality. And identifying all those false beliefs and really truly understanding our identity in Christ. And I honestly believe that does not. A major piece of that is the groups, is the safety of those groups. Most of us grew up feeling unsafe, unprotected. You know, you can't trust a man, you can't trust authority figures, you can't trust God because all of these wounds that we've carried, the sin that's been done to us. So even when we experience freedom in Christ and we hear all these about the grace of God and that he set us free, those belief systems are still under the surface and we're still renewing the mind. And we need to hear that like with our church as a church, the whole basis is to remove shame from our culture. That you come as you are truly not just say it. But truly come as you are, you're accepted, you're loved. Because we know behind all the pretense and the things that we do to perform. If you can truly be accepted and open your heart to the truth of who God is and have people like speak life into you and speak the truth, you can receive it when you're open. When you have to hide behind a religious veneer or act like you got it all together, that shame just still stays in there and it still grips your soul. The place where shame is broken is with true acceptance 100%. Like, we're in this together, we're all equal. At the foot of the cross. You'll see that shame start to break down and people start to come to life. It looks really messy at first because you have to recognize you're full of shame and you have to be honest and open and like, yeah, I really, I remember the story when I first got married with Gwenna and she, we came from two completely opposite backgrounds and we'd be married and I'm wrestling with shame early in our marriage and there's so much friction and conflict going on and I didn't know how to process it and I just processed it through this shame based filter and she'd say things like, scott, you didn't take out the garbage. And I'd say, why are you calling me an idiot? Because I saw, I saw everything through a shame based filter and I had to relearn all that or my marriage was in trouble. And guess what part of the healing and all that was reconciling, forgiving, forgiving the wounds of my father, my father wound, my uncle, all the historical trauma and really being born again. Even though I knew the information of Christ, to truly re experience that, one of the things I believe in 100% with groups conqueror or these type of groups is those new experiences over time. That's where God renews the mind. It isn't just more teaching and more Bible study and scripture, which is all important, very important. But you have to learn to renew the mind through these relationships, these safe relationships where you can be vulnerable and allow God's truths to transform you from the inside out. And you'll start to discover over time that shame that had its grip on your soul, it releases. And you can start like walking, looking people in the eye, walking with integrity. It's amazing how God moves.

I think if you're not in a group setting to like finding those, finding those people. And I can still think of the six or seven people I've met in my life like this that who are willing to just wear who they are like on their chest and walk around and they're vulnerable and they're not trying to hide, like the stuff in their life, the mess in their life. Those are the people you want to be like. Those are the people who've accepted their story, they've accepted their stuff and they've processed their stuff. Because if not, they wouldn't be vulnerable. They wouldn't show you all that stuff. There would be pride still locked in there. And so even if you're not in a group, find those people that you just can't help but want to know more about and just keep sharing. And man, there's that vulnerability. If you want to model that in your life and really learn how to accept forgiveness and to really let your identity start to be wrapped up in that truth, find people who emanate that.

Yeah, I like what you're saying too, about the experience that when it really comes to knowing and believing we're forgiven, it can't come just through more head knowledge or reading another book or a great sermon. And Ted Roberts says this all the time that we have to experience that love and forgiveness of God. And so often the only way we're able to experience that is through others, because we're able to see those people and be in the room with them. And I mean, there are occasions in our life where we can have that kind of experience with God one on one. But I would say it's more common for him to bring us that experience through the relationship we have with others. And so the more we can just walk in those kind of relationships where people help remind us, say, you know, you don't have to perform for us to love you. You don't have to be perfect to be part of this group. You don't have to have it all together to be my friend. And if you don't, if you're listening and you don't have many people like that in your life, I mean, make that your top priority to find a group or to find friends that when you're with them, you know, I don't have to try to be something to be liked or to be their friend. I can just really be me. Good, bad, ugly, and everything in between. Because that experience over time really does change those core lies that we've all learned to listen to in some way and hear the truth of God's love and affirmation for us.

Yeah, so Scott, you've experienced this in your family and as we've just been talking about forgiveness, what does forgiveness do to a family? How does it change a family?

Forgiveness changes everything. It can bring members of family, like my parents, where there was so much abuse, so much domestic violence, so much pain and hurt. Historically, God can use forgiveness to reconcile a family. Forgiveness can lead to the trust and the reconciliation and the restoration of a marriage. He's done that. In my marriage, it was through the forgiveness for both of us, my wife and I, forgiving one another for those transgressions which led to the change. And forgiveness can also set us free from the sins of the past, those generational sins. Forgiveness can allow a father and son to be reconciled after four decades of no relationship. So many of the men carry a father wound, and it's driving a lot of this addiction and the sin or the shadow fathers that we had and those sort of things that God can use forgiveness to begin the process of reconciliation. I remember when my father was released from prison, and I was so excited because he became a Christian. And I recognized it when I went to the prison. I saw him and I thought, man, when he gets out of prison, we're gonna have this great relationship, and, man, things are gonna go great. And I even told my wife, I said, hey, can he move in with us? But my wife knew your dad's not moving in with us because she hadn't seen the process. She forgave him, but he's not moving into our house, especially with an infant daughter that we had. But over time, we started a relationship. And over time, I recognized I'm a lot like my father. So we had this beef initially. Beef is the right word, beef. Just we butted heads. And then over time, forgiveness and processing and learning more about his story and why he did what he did, the underlying issues of why my father acted the way he did, even with some pretty heavy, heavy transgressions and heavy sin, that God was able to bring healing through that. And I'll never forget the story. I was in the. I was in the home of Ted Roberts during the Farm Club when Pure Desire was first launching and my dad was in prison. My dad had just been released from prison, and I was sharing with the group. It had Ted Roberts, Harry Flanagan, Rich Moore, some of the key people that are within this ministry. And I was sharing how I couldn't connect with my father. I wanted a relationship with my dad. He's not in prison. This isn't going anywhere. I don't understand why we can't be reconciled and have this close Intimate relationship that I've always dreamed of. I mean, he's a Christian now. Yeah, he's completely changed. And then there's Ted. Scott, can I share a story with you? Sure. And, you know, when Ted says, scott, can I share a story with you? Something's coming. You know what I'm saying?

Can't really say no either.

You can't say no because he's just staring at him.

Polite of him to ask, but you know he's going to share it.

But he said, scott, I need you to picture your dad in a wheelchair. Emotionally, he's still paralyzed, and you're running the race, Scott, you've had healing. You've had healing ministry. You've been part of pure desire. You've been part of the seven pillars, but your dad's still back here, and you're expecting your dad to come run the race with you. Be patient with your father and go meet him where he's at, and God will continue to bring healing into his life. And someday, Scott, you guys, if it's God's will, will be reconciled. And that process took about 15 years.

Wow.

To this day, my father and I are completely reconciled. We hang out and I go down and serve in the jail with him and stuff. But that moment with Ted was so instrumental for me because I was expecting my father to get up emotionally and spiritually to run the race and catch up with me in my healing process. But to have the wisdom of someone who's a little further down the line, like Ted, to speak that insight into my life, it allowed me to see my father differently. And both of these guys are Vietnam veterans, so it just really spoke to my life and allowed me to kind of be very patient with my father. And it was. It was a moment where we turned the corner, definitely.

Wow.

Yeah.

I think that's so important to think through as we talk about the impact forgiveness has on families. We can be guilty of thinking there will be like, this come to Jesus moment, and everyone's tearful and we all forgive. And it's like, oh, now forgiveness is in our family. You know, like that moment when your dad first got out of jail, and you just think it's all going to be different. But the truth is, we're human beings, and change takes time, and it's. It is a journey. And so when we're trying to really work a culture of that forgiveness into just how we relate to one another, it might be over a period of years. And that's not because we're weak or we can't figure it out. It's just almost that illustration you used from Ted. It's like we're training, we're developing. We're going from being unable to walk to learning to run. And you don't do that overnight. And so I think, as I consider in my own family, and as those. Listen, as you think about your family, just to think about how can you be patient with yourself, patient with others around you, to just keep in this attitude in place of forgiveness and watch how over time you will see the impact, you will see the results. But just because it takes longer doesn't mean you're doing something wrong. There may just be like, as in your dad's case, a bigger journey to go through. And that's. It can be a neat thing to be a part of someone else's journey and for them to be a part of your journey.

I mean, let's be honest. Everything of significance and of value in life takes time like it does. It's something that lasts and something that's around and his quality takes time to do so. I mean, that's really all I had. I'm just like repackaging what you said because it was so good.

It's all good. Well, Scott, we really love having you here and appreciate you sharing your story, opening up parts of your life to us, to our listeners. We like to end these episodes in about the same way. And that's just to give you free reign to say what's some final encouragement you would like to leave with our listeners today as it comes to your story and forgiveness.

I think the final encouragement that I would share is that you're never too far gone. You cannot out sin the love of God, that there is forgiveness for every single person, no matter what you've done, where you've been or where you've come from. And that God can bring healing to any family, any family. Like, if he can do it in my family and some of the families of those in this ministry, he can do it for you. And if people are struggling, listeners are struggling with man, God could never forgive me, or my wife could never forgive me. I just want to encourage you to continue to take that back to the Father, because there is forgiveness and there is healing and there is reconciliation if we'll truly risk trusting God and allowing ourselves to be vulnerable again with the right people. Right. You know, we don't want to. Yeah. Everything we've talked about is just understanding who's safe, who isn't. And there are people out there who we can move Forward with, and there is opportunities for healing and wholeness. And what's cool is we can find it through the church, through pure desire groups, and through other believers where our culture says we're just nothing but judgmental hypocrites. But this true healing and safety can be found within the church. I haven't found it anywhere else. At least people who are pursuing Christ like character. I just want to encourage everyone to see that it's possible to be forgiven.

You know, for me, as I was thinking through this, I think my encouragement would just be to realize that forgiveness really teaches that your identity is not wrapped up in your actions. And, you know, I think about my kid, man, he'll be two here pretty soon. And I want him to grow up knowing that, that his value and his. His standing with me, with the Lord is not contingent upon how well he does in life. I grew up believing that, like, hardcore believing that. And I think that forgiveness is a key into that room. Like it unlocks the door and lets you in. So it's not just something that man, is beneficial for you, but it also helps create a culture where identity is not tied to your performance.

Yeah. And as I think about forgiveness, what I would leave today with is just to say that forgiveness can't be earned. Because if it has to be earned, it's not forgiveness. Now, we might, in a relationship, we might need to earn trust again. But especially as it comes to our relationship with God, I think a lot of us can get locked into an earning kind of forgiveness with him, to think, well, if I mean it, if I'm sincere enough, if I show him I'm going to clean up my act and I'm going to change, then he'll give me forgiveness because I show that I deserve it or that I've earned it. And Christ didn't give his life and shed his blood for us to make us earn that forgiveness. It's about receiving. And so I would encourage for all of us as we come before God to have that mindset of thinking in your presence. Lord, I'm just receiving the forgiveness you've offered. I don't have to earn it. I don't have to perform well. I don't have to show I'm good for it. I just. I receive it. And that's God's great gift to us, is that the more we receive his forgiveness and love, the more we tend to model it, to walk in it, to live it. But when we're in that earning kind of place, it just can become a vicious cycle that we feel like we're never good enough. So just receive his forgiveness and then learn to pass that on to others.

This has been solid. Like, this has been great. Forgiveness is, it's, it's kind of one of those, like, scary things to talk about in the church because you know that it involves so many people. But it's such an important piece to the gospel. And understanding really the way it plays out in the lives of followers of Christ obviously plays a huge role in the restoration of men, women and families. You know, Scott, we heard that in your story. And so if you want to hear more from Scott, you can visit Asis Church www.asis.church. check them out, see what they're doing. We're happy to be, to be be partnering with them. If you want to learn more about Scott's book Forgiveness Factor, you can visit puredesire.org forgivenessfactor and Scott, man, thanks so much for hanging out with us, sharing your story. Just appreciate your time, man.

Thanks for having me.

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