085 - Unwanted (Pt. 2)

Welcome to the Pure Desire Podcast where we partner with you to bring hope and freedom on your journey to purity. Hey, ladies. I wanted to let you know about an upcoming event, the Pure Desire Women's Conference. This two day conference is designed to help all women find grace and peace in their daily lives. Doesn't that sound nice? Regardless of where you've been in your life, through this event you'll get a break from the daily grind. You get a fresh dose of encouragement and look. You'll also get practical tools to help you find emotional, spiritual and sexual health. This conference is from April 5th through 6th at the Sheraton Portland Airport Hotel. I'm excited for you to hear from Heather Kolb, Ashley Jamison, and our featured speaker, Patty Moreno. Come gather with other women looking to find ways to be healthier people in today's world. To register and get more info on the speakers on the schedule and more, visit PureDesire.org PDWomen Again, that's PureDesire.org PDWomen that's all I got for now. Enjoy the podcast. Hey everybody. Today's episode is part two of the two part series we have with author Jay Stringer talking about his book, How Sexual Brokenness Reveals Our Way to Healing.

So, Jay, you were mentioning earlier a lot about the research you did, and I think you said the number was over 3,800 people. So in all this surveying and data collection that you did for the book, tell us a little bit more about that and maybe you share with our listeners, what would you say was perhaps the most surprising or unexpected finding through all of your research?

Yeah, so basically when I started looking at the current research that was out there, it basically told us what we already know, that about 57% of our pastors have struggled, are struggling with pornographies. I think it's like 64% of youth pastors, 2/3 of the church. So most of the research that's out there basically just says unwanted problem. Problem. Yep. And so as a therapist, men and women were coming into my office with almost no understanding of what freedom from unwanted sexual behavior was all about. They had been told, you know, as we, what we talked about earlier, basically like, stop doing it, get into accountability. If you keep struggling, install some filtering, bounce your eyes and these things not working. And so that's when I thought, why don't we just ask people who are struggling with unwanted sexual behavior to tell us a little bit about their story. And to me, this is the most faithful approach to the scripture that you know. Throughout the old Testament, when God moves towards people, he asked them questions. So to Adam, the question is, where are you to. To Hagar, who's just been immensely traumatized by the first family of the faith, the angel of the Lord appears to her and says, hagar, where do you come from and where are you going? And so that was really what I wanted to ask people, was where do you come from? Tell me about your relationship with your parents, some of the significant experiences that you went through in childhood, like bullying or sexual abuse. And then I also asked people to tell me a little bit about they were dealing with in the present. From a lack of purpose to depression, to feeling like their needs weren't met in their marriage, and then to ask very specific questions about what their arousal template is. So what types of feelings, thoughts, sensations did they actually find arousing? And what did they put into the Internet to search for? And what we found was that really these things, as I said earlier, are not random at all. They were a direct reflection of the parts of our story that remained unaddressed. And so made two quick findings would just be that the first is that men who lacked a clear sense of purpose in their lives were seven times more likely to increase their involvement with pornography. So these men had looked back at their life and saw a lot of failure. They looked at their current life and didn't really know where they wanted to go vocationally. Um, and so part of what I think that finding showed me was that pornography is certainly a moral issue, it's a gender based violence issue, but it's also one of basically just a squatter in so many people's lives. We look at some of the current stats around the average American watches four and a half hours of television a day. And that seemed astronomical to me until I started thinking about weekends and how many football games there are, golf. But it's when we don't know who we are and we don't know how to pursue the life that we want, there are going to be squatters that take up residence in our life. And so if you don't know who you are, don't know where you're going in life, you're at risk of increasing your involvement in porn by a factor of seven. So that was really, I mean, not terribly surprising finding, but also I think has really big implications. The second finding would just be that the impact of sexual abuse was just so, so tragic as you began to see how childhood sexual abuse really corrupts someone's sexual story. And the damage of abuse really played out over a lifetime. So some of the most significant pornography users in my had sexual abuse scores from childhood that were nearly 24% higher than those that did not view pornography at all. So as my colleague friend Dan Allender says, that the roi, the return on investment that evil receives from abuse is just astronomical. And so I think that that was a really kind of concerning finding for me, is that so many times in the church, what we're kind of consistently addressing is sexual brokenness and trying to get people to stop doing what they're doing. But again, their sexual brokenness provides a clue into how their sexual story in many ways, got misused very early on in life. And so if we're only addressing our triggers, only addressing our pornography use, but we're not really asking the questions to say, where did my sexual story first get corrupted? We're really not going to be able to invite men and women into the healing that they really deserve.

Something that has been really on my heart for really more recently in Ephesians 4, the idea of bearing each other's burdens, I just, as I've been going through group again and really just spending a lot of quality time and getting connected with people, especially at the church me and my wife go to, is just learning that if I'm not willing to share, then no one can really bear what I'm going through. And also what you're saying, Jay, the implication then is too, if I'm not willing to share, then there's no one who can help me see what's really going on. So if I just keep all this information to myself, nothing is gonna get resolved because no one is able to look in from an outside perspective and say, look, this is what's going on. And that's what I love about, about your assessments and about the research that you did, is you really, you're helping people see that there's stuff going on underneath the surface that's motivating this. And it really starts with those people, with us, sharing what is going on in our life. And if we do that, then we can really start to dig and find what's really going on.

Yes. So well said. I think a lot of what happens to us, though, is we in the midst of our sexual brokenness, the. The story that is always at the forefront of our mind is our shame and our failure. And so when that's happening, even when we're experiencing past trauma, shame, part of what we know from the neuroscience is that one of the things that goes offline first is Broca's region, which is the region of speech just being able to talk through what's happening. And so I think for many of us, that's where it takes a skilled group. Or just as you, as you mentioned, like, when you hear someone else tell their story, and it's not just a story of, you know, I'm just a really screwed up man and I acted out five times last week. That really doesn't give you any window into his story, into what was actually happening when he chooses to act out. But then when you have people that are really insightful seers or you have people that are actually opening up about what their childhoods were like, I think that that's really our mind takes those things in and says, oh, I have those burdens too, and now I need to share them.

So, speaking of choices. So the choice of unwanted behavior in your book, you say that the choice of unwanted sexual behavior is never accidental. There's always a reason. And really, in our day and age right now, where we hear things like, I was born this way or I just can't help it. Can you unpack what you say in your book and really how that plays out today in our culture?

Yeah. Let me give you two brief examples. So the first would be, let's say that there's a husband that is trying to initiate sex with his wife and he's turned down. Oftentimes what will end up happening is like, maybe some argument will ensue and the wife kind of correctly perceives that if she has sex, there won't be conflict, but if she says no, she might encounter some of his anger. And so what often happens in my practice is that I'll hear this story where a guy will say, you know, I was really triggered the other night, and I use porn at midnight or so. And so when I first asked him, he's like, you know, I just keep struggling with lust. But then when I go back to say what's actually playing out here, he'll tell that story about rejection. And what he wants me to see is that he feels really lonely and sad. But I think what he doesn't want me to engage is really his anger and his entitlement. And I think part of what's happened far too often in the church is that the only way that we've known how to talk about sexual brokenness is to use language like lust or horniness. But we have forgotten or just refused to see the role of anger and power that play into our sexual brokenness as well. So part of the way That I see it is, if you were to think about, like, a river, one tributary of that river of porn is definitely lust, but I think the other major tributary is anger. And so one of the things that happens is if you don't have a way to confront and address your anger, your use of pornography is just going to continue. So with that man that I mentioned, if he doesn't know how to confess, confront his anger, learn how to regulate himself in the midst of that distress, pornography is going to be an issue for him for a really long time. And it's not because he feels rejected. He's also pursuing a behavior that gets back at his wife for declining intimacy. And so what we're dealing with is really that. That intersection of lust and anger. So it's, you know, that's where I say it's really not accidental. And with regard to some of the research that we did on women and infidelity, one of the findings that became apparent was that women who pursued infidelity or fantasized about infidelity with an anonymous partner were 4.7 times more likely to report their needs not being met. So if you were to just kind of begin to think about that marriage, this woman is. Is experiencing profound emptiness there, doesn't really feel like she has the ability to communicate her needs. And then also maybe in a type of religious construct where to mention that she has needs would just not go well for her, that she's been trained to kind of just sacrifice for her family. I think what we have to encounter is that that has a shadow side to it. And so that's where these things, again, are not accidental. Our sexual brokenness is trying to communicate something to us about what it means to live not just with sexual integrity, but relational integrity as well.

You know, I find for some people, it's helpful to have, you know, parallel thoughts. And one of the things in this area for me is the parallel of food. And if someone's really struggling with overeating or a lot of unhealthy eating, we would never hear them say, well, I'm just a really hungry person. Because it's true, we're all hungry at times. But that doesn't explain why you sat up and ate a whole box of Oreos by yourself at 11pm that there were other factors that created that need to say, this will somehow make me feel better. And if they never identify that and say, well, I'm a hungry person, they're going to keep doing it. But yet we do. Just like you were saying, Jay, in The church using words like lust or horny. So I must just be a really horny guy. I've just got a lot of testosterone, and so I guess I'm just going to battle this. Well, you could say that, but it doesn't really explain or look under the surface at what are the deeper things driving that. Because, yes, there is a true sense in which we all have desires and hormones, but in the same way, we all have hunger. And that doesn't explain why we take the steps we do to try to meet those needs.

Yes. Love it.

So, Jay, if we're to dive into this a little bit, hopefully those who are listening feel like, man, this is an area I could really benefit from. I could grow. I could maybe see some new things about my journey or my struggle. And if they're hearing and saying, I'd really love to take the next step or where do I start? What kind of advice would you give them? How does someone start into this area of understanding their lust and listening to their past?

Yeah. So I think part of what I would recommend is for them to write down a short story. And that could be 500, 700 words that basically tells about a formative story of pain from their childhood. And you could also do one or two. But most of us, when we think back to some of the most difficult moments in our childhood, we have these flashes or scenes of, like, that was a really terrible moment at school. That was a really awful moment with my parents. And so I think what most of us haven't done is to kind of incarnate ourselves into that story, to actually write down what was happening there. And then the other thing to do would be to write down. And again, you could do this in a. In a group setting. But to write down some of those details associated with someone's fantasy life, what they search for, and to kind of list out. This is actually what I feel like I'm searching for. And so part of what I would say is, how do you hold those two stories side by side and begin to connect the dots? So oftentimes, our unwanted sexual behavior can be an attempt to reverse some of the difficult things that have happened to us, or in some ways, to repeat some of the difficult things that have happened to us. And that's really the invitation is to say that our current behavior is serving a purpose. Like, if you were to have, let's say I had a bad back and it aches all the time, part of my job is to go back to say, do I have poor posture? Do I Not sit well, or maybe there was a car accident from my childhood that I never got addressed with my back pain, and that's why it's playing out today. So to me, that's so much of the task is to hold a story of brokenness with a story of pain and difficulty and begin to kind of see, say, what are the connections here? And to invite your small group, your recovery group, and to help me to see what I can't see here. And I think that that's really the. The place of curiosity that God is inviting us into is where are you? How that this story has come to be. And I also, to kind of make that a little bit easier, I created a assessment that is a. It's based on the research that I did, and it will begin to ask you some of those questions of what your relationship was like with your parents, formative experiences that you went through, and then really help you connect the dots. So obviously, it's not going to get into your specific stories from childhood, but it will at least say, here are the key drivers of your pornography use or your pursuit of infidelity or buying sex. So that's a great resource as well, that people can use to help them process how these came to be.

Yeah, and we'll have that in the show notes for the listeners.

So, Jay, you just mentioned two things that lead people to seeking out sexual behaviors. And I think, one, people understand when it's a reaction against what happened to us that maybe we never felt valued, and so we pursued lust as a way to find value. But you also said people might use it as a way to repeat the pain or the trauma. And that probably for a lot of people, doesn't make sense. Like, why would I repeat the. The traumatic or painful thing? Tell us a little bit more about just our human experience or our brain. Why would we seek to repeat in our lives the painful things like that?

Yeah. So the first category that I go to there is the reality of sexual abuse in our lives. Most of what the research says is about one out of every three women and one out of every four or five men. The rates are probably higher when you begin to factor in things like, how were you introduced to pornography? Most people would say, I just randomly discovered in a neighbor's house or underneath my dad's bed. But the reality is that was introduced to you. It was left somewhere for you to find. And so one of the things that we think about with regard to abuse is abuse doesn't start with kind of toxic genital contact for the most part, what ends up happening is they say something to you, like, Jay, you have a really, really strong arm. So some of their first engagement with you actually has kindness to it. And so what we know from some of Patrick Carnes research and others is that people who end up struggling with sexual addiction come from homes that are primarily characterized as very rigid and or very disengaged. And so the key things there is that our hearts are longing for connection. They're longing for someone to see the beauty inside of us. And what happens in abuse is about 70, maybe 80 to 90% of perpetrators of abuse know their victim. They're in a relationship of trust to them. So that could be an aunt, an uncle, an older brother, a neighbor, a pastor, a youth pastor. And so, again, those initial involvements actually have trust and pleasure woven into them. And so when they're in the grooming process, they're really trying to say, I see something about you against the backdrop of this very rigid or disengaged family, and I want to invite you into life. I want to invite you into playing a game. And so what ends up happening is that our bodies actually feel oxytocin first. So we feel bonded to someone. And then most abusers are usually working for the pleasure of their victim. So when they introduce you to person porn, they want to see that you become aroused by it or fixated on it. They might invite you to see something that you've never seen before. And so you start feeling dopamine of pleasure, motivation, attention. But then as the abuse begins to progress and maybe goes on maybe for a month, maybe for years, your body feels some level of cortisol and stress of, what if someone finds out? Maybe there is an overt threat against you that if you tell anyone, there's going to be damage done to you or to your family. And so what initially gets formed is this really toxic cocktail of bonding, arousal, stress, and shame. And that becomes your sexual template. So much later in life, you actually don't feel sexually alive unless you're recreating some of the original trauma cocktails of I need something that makes me feel bonded. And when I go on a business trip and I meet with someone, I just feel alive, but then I also feel like I can feel some dopamine. I want pleasure. And then in the aftermath of what you've just chosen, you feel shame. You feel stress about someone finding out. And so in many ways, what you've done is you've actually reenacted your formative abuse story, and you're calling it acting out. And so I think that that would be a huge shift that I found in my research and in the book is a lot of us are really comfortable with acting out language, but until we can kind of begin to name what the reenactment is, we're really not going to be in a place of healing. And that's. That's where we reverse something or re repeat something that, you know, was toxic from our childhood, and then we repeat something in the present that's also toxic.

Yeah. Yeah. That's really powerful stuff. Thanks, Jay.

Yeah, so really getting into this, thinking about listening to your lust, really trying to figure out what is behind what's going on. That is. I mean, even as you're describing it, that's a scary thing, especially if you've never done it before. So if you're encouraging someone to do this, is this something they do on their own? Is it with a group? Does it require a clinical professional? Like, what does it look like for someone? Do they include other people, or is this something they do on their own?

Yeah, I would say that you. It's definitely good to include another person. That could be a group, that could be an accountability partner or an ally. And so I think part of what happens to us when we are in isolation is that we come up with judgments against ourselves. So when we are processing data about what we've chosen, you're going to feel the experience of shame. When you incarnate yourself into the powerlessness of what you felt as a child, you're going to feel powerless. And so it's really in being able to bring those stories to other people that will actually help us understand those stories for the first time. And so I highly recommend kind of going through these things in a group. And again, that could be professional help as well. Seeking out pure desire therapist is a phenomenal place to begin.

Yeah, it's almost like sometimes when you're doing something, I'm a creative person, so I'm usually creating something or doing a project. You get so close to the project that when you look at it, you can't look at it with clear vision, that you're not objective about it. And it's one of those things where if you invite outside perspective and new set of eyes get to look at it, they see things that you didn't. And so for me, that's been played out really, in group. As I've told my story, as I've really dove into what is going on in my life, it's like I can take A step back with these guys and say, hey, look, I noticed this and noticed that. You see how those two things are connected. And so they really like the puzzle of my life. They help me put it together. And I can't do that by myself because I'm too close to it.

Yes. So well said.

So, Jay, I know one of the exciting projects you've gotten to be a part of recently is connected to the Heart of Man movie. Tell us a little bit about that and what our listeners might find to take some next steps here.

Sure. So the Heart of Man film, if people aren't familiar with it, is really kind of a retelling of the prodigal son story. And it's definitely through the lens of sexual brokenness. So there's some phenomenal stories from marriages, from men and women that have struggled with pornography. And part of the core premise of this film, and maybe even core question of this film is, what if your sexual shame was not a barrier, but actually a bridge? And that's available, I believe, on Netflix still, if you have Netflix, so you can definitely go check out and watch it. And what ended up happening is they just had. I mean, I think it was really like tens of thousands of messages from people just saying, this is phenomenal. We've just never understood this understanding of the gospel that the father is towards us, that the father is not ashamed of us in our sexual brokenness, but actually moves closer to us. And so people were saying, how do we continue on this journey into the heart of the father, into the heart of my own brokenness? And, you know, their film, I think, came out in 2017. My book came out in 2018. And so part of what we started discussing is what if we join forces to do something that a book can't do on its own and a film can't do on its own. And so what we created was a. It's essentially an E course, but it's 18 episodes that really is going to guide you to identify and transform the key drivers of your unwanted sexual behavior. So you're going to see how your story actually shapes and predicts the sexual choices that you're making. So we cover everything from childhood to this question of why do I stay? What are the current things in my life that keep me going back to it? And then the final stage is really, what's the journey to healing within a group? And so that includes the self assessment. There's a closed Facebook group where I interact with a lot of people's questions, but also other people are supporting one another. So what we've seen is that it's just been people are really, really loving it and talking about how it's really putting them on a very different path than they ever would have considered before that again, right in the middle of the behavior that they're trying to stop, are these kind of really important clues about where to find healing.

Yeah. It's so good. And it is. I just checked. Don't judge me. I just checked. It is still on Netflix.

It's a good watch.

Jay, this has been awesome, man. I feel like I've learned just a lot from just our time together. And I'm really excited for people to really start to dive into your book, into your resources, get their hands on those. But we end our episodes the same way every time. It's just the idea of giving our guest an opportunity. So for you, based on what we've talked about, the idea of listening to our sexual brokenness and the way it's played out in our life, what final encouragement would you give to our listeners?

Yeah, I would say that God is not ashamed of us, but sees our sexual brokenness as the very stage through which the work of redemption could be played out in our lives. So I know what happens to a lot of us when we are in the ruts of our sexual brokenness is that we think that God just wants conformity. But I think what we'll find is that God is committed to unbelievable transformation if we allow our brokenness to reveal our way to healing.

Yeah. It's so good, Jay.

Dude, this has been a pleasure. We really appreciate your time. All the wisdom, all the research, man. People don't get how much time research takes. So thanks for just being willing to put all that work in. Honestly, man, we are proud to be your friend and we're proud to really just support what you got going on. If you want more information on Jay, what he's up to, visit www.j-stringer.com. he's got content, blogs and online course. There's a ton to check out. And if you're interested in Jay's book Unwanted, you can order a copy@puredesire.org Unwanted. We highly recommend you get that. And also, if you want to find out more about the Heart of Man movie, you can go to heartofmanjourney.com so, Jay, again, man, thanks so much for hanging out with us today. It's been awesome.

Yeah, Nick and Trevor, thank you so much for having me. It's just, it's an honor to be in this work with you all. When I think about just getting to partner with you guys, even on something as simple as a podcast, I'm so thrilled because what you guys have done to help shift the conversation and change the conversation on sexual brokenness in the church. So many of us that are finding healing and different pathways to engage our story and our brokenness, it's just so much due to what your ministry has so faithfully been doing. So such an honor to be with you today.

Thanks Jay. We appreciate it and thank you for.

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