088 - Leading Seven Pillars

Welcome to the Pure Desire Podcast where we partner with you to bring hope and freedom on your journey to purity. Hey, ladies. I wanted to let you know about an upcoming event, the Pure Desire Women's Conference. This two day conference is designed to help all women find grace and peace in their daily lives. Doesn't that sound nice? Regardless of where you've been in your life, through this event you'll get a break from the daily grind. You get a fresh dose of encouragement and look. You'll also get practical tools to help you find emotional, spiritual, and sexual health. This conference is from April 5th through 6th at the Sheraton Portland Airport Hotel. I'm excited for you to hear from Heather Kolb, Ashley Jamison, and our featured speaker, Patty Moreno. Come gather with other women looking to find ways to be healthier people in today's world. To register and get more info on the speakers on the schedule and more, visit PureDesire.org PDWomen Again, that's PureDesire.org PDWomen that's all I got for now. Enjoy the podcast. Hey there. I'm your host, Trevor Windsor. We're so thankful you're taking time out of your day to hang out with us. I'm here, as always, with my co host, Nick Stumbo.

Too legit. Too legit to quit.

Okay, that was. That was pretty good. Why don't you tell some of the listeners who maybe have no idea what that's from?

Yeah, you'd need to be a child of, you know, probably born in the 70s, so that by the early 90s you were into music. And that was a very, very popular MC Hammer song. Right when I was in about seventh grade and everyone had the little hand motions that went with it, and even NFL players were doing that, like in interviews at the end. It was a big deal for a while.

So the only thing I really know, because of how young I am about MC Hammer is that he went bankrupt. That's the only MC Hammer I know.

Evidently, he wasn't legit enough.

That's true. Can't touch this, but apparently you can.

The Hammer pants are still in style.

They're coming back.

Okay, so today, before we even get to our guest, who you've already heard, today is a momentous day for us. Today is our first podcast in the new Pure Desire building. We are in a brand new building. We spent millions of dollars. No, we didn't. We moved offices. We're now all under one roof. If you know anything about the history of our ministry, we've been in multiple Buildings. And now we are in the same building. We're out a roundtable. It's official.

And we're gonna keep doing it here.

And we're gonna keep doing it here.

You're not setting up in my office. We're not setting up in a hotel room.

That's right.

In a church back office somewhere. We've used many places.

There are listeners who minds are being blown right now. They thought we were so official. We're not now. We are official.

We're working on it.

That's right.

Only after 80 some episodes.

Yeah, man. It took a minute. We paid our dues.

Just warming up.

Yeah, we paid our dues. So you've already heard from him. We have the big guy back with us. Rich Moore. Rich is our Men's international groups coordinator. And I think it's official to call you a Pure Desire OG like you were back in the heyday. You were one of the first ones.

The guinea pig.

Yeah, yeah. And you're a large guinea pig, my friends. So, Rich, we're glad that you're here. Today's episode is focused on leading Pure Desire Seven Pillars groups. These groups are for men who struggle with porn or sexual addiction. Also, love addiction can be applied. There's a lot of addictions that can, but they're specifically for porn and sex addiction. Uh, so this may mean. Let me just say this. If you're a woman and you started this podcast and you're like, oh, it's only for men, I'm gonna click off. Don't stick with this. Because understanding the healing process for a man struggling with sexual integrity can be really insightful, can be super helpful for your. Maybe your spouse, maybe someone you're in a relationship with. Could be for your kids. So stick with us. Seven Pillars groups really help men process the wounds of their past, create a roadmap to sobriety, and really help create a trajectory of sexual integrity for the. And because all of us at this table have led these groups before, I'm looking forward to our conversation today.

Yeah, I think it's going to be beneficial and just, you know what you're saying for women, or even someone who's listening, that's not in seven Pillars or they don't think they need one. I think a lot of what they'll hear, there's commonalities between all the groups now. There's definitely specific things that the men's material walks through, but in terms of approach, how to lead what makes for an effective group, you know, you'll see similarities between all of them. So I hope everyone gets a really clear picture today of what is walking into recovery and health look like when I'm doing it with a group around me.

Yeah, absolutely. Rich, you ready to go?

I am.

Okay. All right, so let's just start with this, Rich, Some of our listeners probably haven't heard your story before. That being that you're a pure desire og. There's a lot of people out there who have heard it, but maybe someone who hasn't heard it. Can you give us a little bit of your background and your experience with being in and leading seven pillars groups?

Yeah, you know, sadly, my story is not too uncommon. You know, being abused when I was 4 and basically learning everything we know about sex when we are. When we were young and growing up and figuring your body out. And then, you know, by the age of 12, you're basically a full blown sex addict, so. And then living that life until my life was technically kind of crashing down in the summer of 96. And a little bit of background on that for those of you that don't know. Again, abused it for. Everything I learned really about sex was when I was young, as I grew and started figuring things out. When I was 14, I abused my niece and kind of set her up the same way that what happened to me and almost identical. And from there on, really from 14 to 20, I was really out of control. Strip clubs, multiple, you know, dancers, and, I mean, you just name it, it was just out of control. Summer in 96, it all came to pretty much a crashing halt. And even before that, Ted, Dr. Roberts, he kind of got a hold of me before that. But really in that summer 96, late 95, is when pure desire really started kind of getting, I want to say, put in front of my face. That's when I had really started talking about it from the pulpit and.

Right.

And really just started bringing in. And long story short, facing 49 years in prison, was in a group right away, went to sentencing thinking I was going to go away for a long time. Walked out with 10 years of probation.

Wow.

Been off probation now for. Since 2007.

Yeah.

Been in groups since the very beginning, pretty much. And I could tell you that it saved my life. So I wouldn't be here, obviously, without it.

Well, and if you think about it, there are a lot of people out there that their healing would be at a different place if you hadn't gone through that. Like the role that you play here and the guys that you walk, really, you walk. It's not just guys you get calls all day from multiple men and women about this. And so you get to definitely lean on your experience when you help these people.

Yeah, yeah. And, you know, it's kind of full circle when you look at it. It's really. I count every day a blessing that I'm able to walk in the door here because I could be not here and have a substantial amount of time left. And so I take every phone call seriously and do what I can to get them connected to a group, help a church, start groups, you name it.

So, Rich, thanks for sharing a little more of your background. And in this episode, we're looking to focus on someone leading a seven Pillars group. And for a lot of listeners, you know, that idea has maybe been intimidating or it's something they've had suggested to them, like, hey, the next time there's a group, why don't you take a role, Be a co leader or one of the facilitators, whatever phrase we use. So just to try to help people understand what they're setting out to do. When someone goes to lead a seven Pillars group, what are they hoping that group members will get out of the group? What's their focus, and how they're trying to help other men go through seven pillars.

I remember that first group that I led, and, you know, when Ted said, hey, it's time to start leading a group and leading other guys, I was pretty scared. And. But I just had to realize that going into this group, just because I'm the group facilitator leader, I'm no different than the guys in group. So to go in. And I think I answered this a little bit and might be across in one of the other answers, one of the other questions, but to really not have a high expectation because these guys are really hurting. You know, you can set a high expectation for guys coming into group, but you have to meet them where they're at. And I think that's important that you set that tone up front to let them know that these guys coming into group, this is a safe place for them to open up.

Yeah, that's huge.

Yeah. I mean, I just feel like it's diminishing shame. Right. So it's like even walking in the door can be really, really shameful. And so understanding that these guys feel like they can show up and not be someone who is judged as soon as they walk in the door, that it's a safe place for them to be accepted. And one of the things, too, that I think that a lot of guys can expect when they Walk in the door is that they get to make sense of their story. They finally get to understand why I've been struggling with the things I've been struggling with for so long. And not only that, because that's like half the battle, right, Is figuring out what's going on, but then the other half is really starting to address that and change that and really allow the material, through the work of Jesus to fix it, to change it, to make it healthy.

As I think about the role we play of leader, it's helping people see that they're not alone. Because one of the things about sexual addiction or sexual struggle is it's very isolating and it's very shaming. And there tends to be a part of everyone's story that they think I'm the only one that struggles in this way. No one else has these kind of thoughts or this kind of behavior or this kind of past. And it's really helping people look less at the fruits of their life because, yeah, the fruits of what it led us to can be very different, but helping them recognize that the roots are so similar. I mean, I just was with my group this morning that we walked through the truth and excuses table where what are the excuses we listen to? And even though there were five different guys sharing, you know, 25 different answers, I could listen to every one of those excuses and say, yep, been there. Yep, I've listened to that. Yep, I've heard that. And when we realize, I'm not alone in this, I'm not unique, I'm not different, there's something so powerful that comes to face our story. Like you were saying, to own our story in a new way that really allows it to become a place of healing.

Yeah, absolutely. So let's say, Rich, someone has been through group or is interested in helping other people find some healing. What are. We talked about this in multiple episodes, but really, again, let's kind of circle back to it. What are the qualifications for someone who is leading or stepping into leading a seven pillars group?

You know, the biggest one is to really have gone through the material. Whether it's going through group is one maybe a former client that has gone through the counseling process, but understanding what the material is about, and then not only that, just showing that they have a period of sobriety, they have a heart to serve. I mean, because when it comes down to just the word leader, we're all leaders because we lead on our job, we lead at home, we lead it.

Yeah.

And, you know, coaching kids, game or teams and stuff like that so the natural ability as a leader is there. But we want to make sure that they understand the process of what it's going to take to be a leader. And we walk them through that. So before they even start the group, we walk them through. There's basically a quote, application, that process that they go through. And we walk them through the SOPs and all the group guidelines, and we have them walk through this process, and then we offer training for those guys, too. So it's a big. It's not just a, hey, I'm going to open the door and start leading. There are some things that you want to have in your back pocket, and experience is one of them.

I think it's important to think of the word leader not as expert. And that's probably why some people are hesitant to lead a group, because they've associated leading with being an expert or the professional or the teacher. I really think of leading or the leader as the one who goes first, the one who takes that step first. And so in the group, it's, I've walked this road, and I may not be perfect or even anywhere near that, but I'm headed in the right direction. And since I've taken that step first, now I'm going to lead you through the process I've already walked through. And maybe when it comes to a really difficult question, I'm the leader, I'll go first and just help pave the way for others to follow behind. And with that definition of leader, I think people see, oh, I can lead, I can go first. And others just allow them to follow.

You know, and okay, so we're talking about, like, the prototypical leader, what we're looking for. But in some cases, like mine, I didn't have experience in group before I jumped in. And so maybe that's where you're at. But, you know, this is something that you need and that this is something that your church needs. It's okay to step in and lead a group as long as you're like. Because here, like the three things I wrote down. Do you have a heartbeat? Okay, then you could probably. You could probably lead a group. If you have a car and can make it to church, then or wherever you're having it, you're good. And then if you have two hours a week, then you can lead a group. And so what I've seen is really just having that, but also being just willing to be consistent, like, show up every week. And at that point, you are leading in vulnerability, you're leading a commitment, and then Allow, really? Because one of the things we want is we want to feel like a leader. We want to be empowered, educated, all that stuff, especially as men. It's like a power thing a little bit, and a control thing. You don't have to have that, like, let the material do its thing. You just be consistent. You just show up, you've got a heartbeat car in two hours. That's my take.

And I would just add to that and be willing to learn, because I know that's where you were at. Trevor, you called Rich a whole lot. You listened way too much, as I had to say. And so if you feel like you're not prepared, I think everyone initially feels not prepared. But if you're willing to learn, we can help others around. You can coach and guide, and it can be a very positive experience.

Absolutely.

So, Rich, another aspect of this. Maybe someone assumes that seven Pillars group should be led by someone that's married, has a good marriage, things are going well there. But what about a guy that's single? Maybe they have never been married or they're divorced, recently divorced. Can they lead a seven Pillars group?

Absolutely. And the same qualifications would be for a married guy, really? I mean, there's not much difference in that. At the church I go to at East Hill, we have a single group of single guys and single leaders. And those guys are doing great. They walk through the process. They do the same thing. Now, their accountability looks a little different because they're not married, but they set up the same kind of, you know, rap sheet. They have people they're accountable to. They have the same kind of guardrails as anybody else. And the leaders of those groups have been through this process. They've been through the group now. They've been leading or co leading. Some of our single leaders around the country are former clients, too. So the process is the same. It just looks different because they don't have a ring on their finger.

Yeah, yeah. And I would say to those single guys or gals that are listening, you know, don't underestimate the influence you can have in the lives of married people. Because quite frankly, many married people are in group because of the relational problems they're having, their wife's making them, or said, if you don't change, I'm out of here. And it's that relationship pressure that has us changing. And when we hear from and see a single guy or a single gal who's saying, I'm here because this is the person I believe God called me to be, and I want to do things in a way that God made me to. And you're just doing it because of your integrity. That's actually very, very inspiring to others of us that are married because we see, oh, it's not just to make my wife happy.

Right.

There's actually a deeper purpose that this is about my relationship with God. And when you're single, you're putting that on display. And, yeah, you've got some challenges maybe, because in our world, single people are kind of championed. Hey, just go out and live it up and, you know, sow your wild oats or whatever phrase people have used in your world. But when you're taking a different stand and saying, that's not the life I want, it's inspiring even to married people. So believe that even in a mixed group, you've got a lot more influence and say than you realize.

And don't feel insecure because the church sometimes inadvertently teaches or basically models that married is like the varsity team. And if you're single, then you're the JV team. And it's like, bro, there's no JV team. It's like, we're all on varsity. We all have got a jersey. Right? But at the same time, don't feel insecure if you're further along in your health. Don't feel like married people have it all figured out. Because I've been married for almost four years. I can tell you right now, I don't have it figured out. Being married didn't. Wasn't like this brand new switch that just flipped. And all of a sudden it's like, I'm so much wiser. I'm not. If anything, I feel like, oh, I'm super selfish and, oh, I have got so much more to learn. So don't feel insecure on your relationship status. Know that God's put you in that place for a reason.

Yeah. And I think when you look at a single guy, when they have experienced, they've been through the process, when they have experienced that true freedom that the pure desire groups bring, there's something different when a single guy experiences that because all he has known is basically himself. Now he has this whole new freedom where he's like, well, now I can fully give this to my girlfriend or my future wife. Because, I mean, that's why these guys are coming to these groups, because they know they have a problem.

Right.

They're not sure how to deal with it because they're not married, but they. They know that they don't want to bring it into their marriage.

Right.

So as we see these groups, a lot of younger. I mean, I'm getting calls every day and emails from, you know, how young is too young for them to go to Conquer series. You know, 12, 13 year old wanting to go to. Wanting to go to a Conquer series because they're struggling at 12 years old.

Okay, so let's go a little bit practical here. When someone wants to lead a Pure Desire group, a seven Pillars group, what material do they need?

Leaders Guide. So the Seven Pillars Leaders Guide, obviously the Seven Pillars of Freedom kit, which is the workbook, the journal, and then the Pure Desire book. I would also throw in there. Not so much material. But the three podcasts that I always talk about are the. The Rap Sheet Recovery Action Plan. Yeah.

Those that don't know the initials.

Yeah. If you've been in prison, that means something different.

So. So that sheet, the faster scale, the Double Bind, and actually there was an maybe two or three more. There's like three or four or five that I go to all the time that I say if you're leading a group, you need to have these in your toolbox, so to speak.

We'll make sure that those are attached on the show notes for this episode.

Especially the Double Bind and the faster scale, because it takes. Those are the two tools that take a while to even figure out how to use and understand.

I've been in group for four years and I still have a hard time with the Double Bind.

Robert did a great job when he talked about the Double Bind. He did.

I should go back and listen.

Yeah. You know something? I'll add, and I don't think Rich wants to toot his own horn, but I would encourage you to reach out to Rich. And if your group or the groups at your church are not registered, you need to register your group. Even if you don't want to be posted publicly online, that's fine. Just get on our radar because then we're able to send you encouragement. There's like monthly updates. There's other things we do to reach out and encourage and support you. So that's just kind of a basic thing that if you're launching maybe the first group at your church and you don't know that you've ever signed up through Pure Desire, you know, there's no cost to it. But we do provide you with extra resources and tools simply because now you're on our list and we know you've got groups. So if you. If you're listening and you've been running groups kind of on your own, that's a real quick connection piece you could make today is just to go to the website, go to the groups page and click on register your group. And Rich oversees that whole process. So you're probably going to talk to him at some point along the way.

Yeah, absolutely. Okay.

Rich, if you're a woman, and I mean a woman listening, not you, but if a woman is listening.

This guy's so weird.

Hey, that's what the podcast is here for. We just, we take on the awkward topics. Right. Fantastic. So if a woman is listening and her husband or fiance or boyfriend is looking to lead a group, how would you describe her role? How could she support the man in her life as he goes about leading one of these groups?

Well, I would highly encourage, as we go through the process of vetting leaders, we want to know that this leader is ready for a group. And a conversation might be a follow up call with the spouse, husband or wife. You know, if. So my wife, she is the strongest woman I know. If there's nights I don't feel like going to group because I do a million of them. She's like, nope, you're going to group. So it takes that, that spouse, a husband or wife just to be that strong person. I know you're going to help and to be. And really the biggest encouragement from my wife that I get is, no, you need to go there for those guys. You need to be there for those guys. And it's not because I'm the group leader. Yeah, those guys. We talked a little bit back about what leading a group looks like. You know, we're leading by example. So the more I can share and I'm vulnerable and transparent, that creates this, this group that is super healthy.

Yeah.

And it has to start with the leader. And you know, our wives are a part of that because we are monitored. Are not monitored, but we are. I don't even know the word I'm looking for. Encouraged by our wife to model that.

Right.

Because we're doing that at home, so we should be doing it in group. Yeah.

And you know, another, another couple of things that come to mind for me is understanding the weightiness of it. Like, I've had group experiences where guys going in the middle of separation or divorce and it's just so messy and so tough. And so I'm usually wiped when I come home. Like my group meets Wednesday nights, Wednesday nights when I go home, I'm wiped. And my wife knows that and she knows that it's a good battle that we're fighting. It's not something that I'm just doing it to get another notch on my spiritual belt or whatever. But then also, I think a big thing is communication is really important in relationship, but communicating to your spouse, to your boyfriend, girlfriend, to your fiance cannot happen when it comes to group. So understanding that when I come home or when I call you after group or we text, I cannot tell you about what's going on in group. I can tell you what I shared, and I can tell you what I learned. But to say, hey, so and so said this or so and so did that this week, you never believe what happened. Oh, my gosh. Like, there's no better way to blow your group up and to lose all credibility as a facilitator or leader than to do that. And so for. For that person in your life who you're in a relationship with, they need to understand that and they need to respect that because. And explain it. It's confidentiality. It's making sure it's a safe place. It's making sure it's a place where guys. And really, with seven pillars, it's a place where guys can come and share. And no, it's not leaving this room.

And I would encourage women with this, that pretty much every leader I've heard from would say, leading others through the material helped me in my journey in ways I didn't expect. There's just something about when I'm taking that responsibility to help others go through the material, that I see my own story differently. The material reads differently. There's new aha moments. And so consider that, that if the man in your life is interested in leading, be a champion of it, because in all likelihood, it's going to help him more than you expect. It's not just about other people. You can, in a way selfishly say, hey, this will be good for you. Yeah, go for it. And just see how God uses it in their life just as much as in the groups.

Well, because if it's good for him, it's also going to be good for you. Like, if he gets healthy, you will benefit from that. So understanding that's huge. You're right.

Yeah. And I think too, my wife understands. And if you have a wife that is in Betrayal and Beyond or a pillars or whatever, they understand the group process. But my wife knows that these groups are emotional. They're highs and low. I mean, I. I have high and low days just here at work, not even in group, because I'm basically doing a group all day long. So she just knows that the biggest support she can give. She's just praying for me during those. Those group nights.

Totally. So now that we've kind of talked about this, and maybe some guys understand what they need to be doing, the kind of support they need, the materials they need. What are some best practices for men that are really stepping into this? What are some things they can do to prepare? Maybe group hasn't started yet. Maybe they're even just considering leading a group. What are some things they can do? What are some best practices to help them prep for it?

Yeah, this. This isn't necessarily a, quote, best practice, but the big one is, is to realize that they need a period of sobriety into stepping into leading.

How long is that period?

You know, six months at least. Yeah, that's what kind of the. What we have down. And, you know, depending on where they're at in their life, too, and just some basic principles that they can set up themselves before getting into a group. And then after that, knowing that they need support from their. Their local church. So their pastor. Yeah, that's a big piece. And if it's an online group, it's a little bit different, but, you know, so they need to have support from their local church, the pastor. They need an understanding of the material. So you just can't buy the books Tuesday and leave the group on Wednesday and get ready to go? No, we have some groups that have done it that way, and so we work with those groups. But. But yeah, you want to understand the material. And then, you know, we also offer support from the RGAs or which are regional group advisors. Regional group advisors. So that's. That's a big part of the whole process, is knowing when I'm gonna lead a group. I'm not doing it alone. I have support from here in the office, and then I have support from the local advisors, and I have support from my local church. So you're not doing this all by yourself.

Yeah.

Something I would add to that is the group guidelines are your friends.

Yes.

That you might look at those and go, oh, yeah, yeah, everybody knows these. But as a leader, that's a big part of your role. Take the group through the group guidelines, make sure everyone reads them, understands them, and then as the leader, have the courage to stand by them. So when someone is starting to share and they didn't write anything down, you need to pause and say, hey, hate to jump in on you, but it doesn't look like you wrote anything down, but you're sharing. And they're like, well, yeah, I just wanted, like, well, you need to do the work. And even though that'll be awkward up front, the more you establish the group guidelines are there for a reason, the better your group experience will be for everybody. And it's hard, it's tough up front to kind of be the guy that says, hey, if you, if you didn't write it, don't share it. But the way that creates focus in the group, it encourages people to come with their work. Ready to go.

Yeah.

Ending the group on time, you know, that's, I think another thing group leaders fall into is all guys are just sharing so much. And we went three and a half hours. And you know, that feels like.

Because you don't want to cut somebody off.

Yeah. And you feel like, you feel like, oh, we were there for each other. But the truth is, what it creates is this fear for the group that we have no idea how long group will go.

Yeah.

And when you're battling with yourself of should I go to group or not? And you think it could be three and a half hours, like, oh, I'm begging it. But if you know, hey, my group leader's on it. We start on time, we finish on time, we get our work done. It actually is going to increase people's buy in and commitment because they see that you're sticking to it and it makes a better experience for everybody. So just to say again, the group guidelines are your friends. It might make you feel awkward at points to enforce them, but it's going to make for a great experience.

And we did a podcast on that.

We did, we did. That was a good one.

Yeah.

Okay, good. I'm writing it down.

Hotel lobby.

That's good. Okay. So the other thing though, that for me is coming into group with an understanding that you're the guide, not the savior. Understanding that, that your vulnerability is honestly the best way to lead. Going first, sharing, being. And man, I've learned this the hard way. And you'll see there's like this hidden fruit that kind of comes out of that when you're willing to be really, really open and hon. Honest and really up front, even in the most terrifying ways. And then you're gonna see the group really start to grow. You're gonna start to see other guys open up a little bit more. You're gonna really start to see some health grow in there. So just understand that it's vulnerability that makes you a good leader. And as much as you'd like to be Superman, you're not like, you couldn't save yourself. You definitely can't save These guys.

Well, and that's. That's the part of group that guys don't want. They don't want to come into a group and have somebody preach at them. They're actually looking for somebody who's going to lead that group who is just as messed up and broken and has walked this process. So they don't want somebody that's just going to sit there and say, do this, do this, do this. They're actually looking for that vulnerable leader because that's what they need. They're not looking for somebody to look down on them, because that's happened their whole life. So now they're in this vulnerable place, and they want to know that as a leader that we have our stuff together.

Yeah. That's a great transition, Rich, because that's the next question exactly. Is what are some of the pitfalls or the things that a leader should watch out for? What are the patterns or just things that are not healthy to do as a leader in your group?

Yeah. To go back to that last answer, really, is to not be a counselor in group.

You know, you have counselors. They do a different job.

Yeah.

That's not you.

They get paid a lot to do what they do. Like, because they're experts.

Yeah. And I think just being able to get yourself on the same level, because we've all been there.

Yeah.

Now I'm just a group leader. That's the only difference. But I'm still dealing with some of the same things. You know, I may. I may have this freedom that I've experienced, but it's so easy to go through seven pillars or a pure desire workbook from 10 years ago and look at my answers to go, wow, I'm struggling with some of the same things. My relapse looks totally different than what a normal relapse would look like. But I think to be able to put yourself on the same level and not consider yourself the leader really makes the group just a much better place.

Yeah. One of the pitfalls that I am guilty of is caring more about someone else's recovery than they do. And what I mean by that is, I would bear the weight or put the weight of other people's health or process in recovery on myself. So if a guy came to the group and he said, I relapsed this week, then it's like, I must not be leading well, I must not be sharing enough. I'm, you know, really. Which is a weird, twisted way of pride in all reality, because I'm taking responsibility for stuff that isn't mine and giving myself power that I think I have, but don't. And so that was just one thing I would say from my own experience. Don't take responsibility for what isn't yours. You have to care about your recovery and you have to share during your recovery. That's the role that you play. Not, you're not the guy who has to. When you get to the kingdom, right, when you get to heaven, Jesus is the first question isn't going to be how did you do as a seven pillars leader? Like did guys relapse in your group? Okay, that's a good. Or like, no, that's not it. You're responsible for your stuff. Don't take responsibility for theirs.

And it's easy to hide behind leadership, you know.

Absolutely.

We see it in the news every day with pastors falling because they have their the high profile pastors and they're in leadership. So they're basically hiding behind their position where they don't want anybody to know. And unfortunately that happens in our group sometimes.

Yeah, I think when you become a group leader, in fact, one of the first things I'll say to my groups when I start them is, hey, in this group, I'm not Pastor Nick. I'm not pure desire Nick, I'm just Nick. I'm a guy that's got a story and I'm still human. I've still got sin. And if that sin creeps up in my life, I need to be real with you about it. And if you need someone to be your leader on a pedestal, this probably isn't the right group for you because I'm here going through it as well. And hopefully I've got some experience I can share. I'm further down the road than many, so there's things I have to offer, but I just need to give myself that permission. And so sometimes I'll just say it to the group like, hey, I just need to be real. I know I'm the leader, but this is the truth of my life and it reminds all of us. I'm not the leader because I'm perfect. I'm just going first. I'm taking that step. And so like you were saying earlier, Trevor, leading in your vulnerability, that's a pitfall to avoid is getting to the point of thinking I don't want to share this because it might discourage them or if I'm honest that I still struggle with this, then they'll be discouraged because they'll think it can never change. And you got to let go of that thinking and Avoid that pitfall for sure. And then the last thing I would say, and it's something I'm guilty of, is honestly, just talking too much. After every guy's faster scale, you've got some comments. After every homework, you add something. I think there are definitely places. As a leader, you can see there's a need to step in and maybe clarify something or ask some questions. But really, as the group develops, making sure after someone shares a faster scale, you just say, thanks, man, and wait and allow some space that the other group members start to jump in and go, hey, could I ask you a question? And that's what you want. Like, if you're the only one that ever asks questions after a guy does his check in, you're probably talking too much and you need to create space just to wait. And a tool in that is maybe someone has shared an obvious thing like, okay, we got to ask about that. Don't be the one. Just say, thanks and wait for a moment to see if someone else. Because especially as the group understands the process and they're getting comfortable with each other, the other guys will start to jump in and go, can you explain that a little more? And. And then it becomes the group caring for each other, not just my group that I lead and I tell everybody what to do.

I suck at that.

That's hard.

I suck at that. Because what you're getting at, too, is that if I'm always the one who's following up after every guy shares, then guys will start to look to me to then dictate that rather than take ownership. And that's what you're talking about, where it's like, no, I have a role in this too. And I'm just as important as Rich, Nick, or Trevor, whoever's leading the group, because I'm a member of this group and I can speak into stuff, too. I suck. I got to work on that. I suck at that.

Yeah, and I think Nick said it, too. I think one of the most important statements that we. We don't think is important is the follow up. Say, hey, thank you for sharing. I really appreciate that.

Yeah.

It may not seem like a big statement, but what it does is it allows that time for that pause where it does kind of just say, everybody's just really quiet. And then it does say, well, that's a perfect time. And then the groups I'm leading, that's the natural cue for other guys. Hey, can I ask you a question? Just that one statement is super powerful. And then it. Not only is it powerful for the guys who want to ask a question, because it's kind of a natural break. The guy who just shared all his stuff in his checkout or whatever, and you say that to them, it's like, wow, that's huge. He actually acknowledged.

Yeah.

What I was sharing. And just. Instead of just going, okay, Trevor, you're done. Nick, you want to go ahead and share?

Yeah. I feel bad for my group members who I'm in group with right now. As they listen to this episode, they're going to be rolling their eyes, they're.

Going to be calling you on it.

Yeah.

That's. Which they should. They should. So. And that actually is a perfect segue. That's a professional segue from Nick Stumble, everybody. If a leader wants to develop or to get better in group, maybe they're in the middle of group, maybe they're just starting group. Maybe they've done group a few times. What does that look like for them to develop? What resources, what things can they do to get better as a leader?

You know, we have a lot of great tools and resources available, obviously podcasts, the blogs, the regional group advisors, peer desire conferences, the men's and women conferences. There's a lot of things that a group leader can come to us with questions and we have all these things in place. Yep. So there's. Our regional advisors will have monthly or quarterly meetings with their. With the leaders in their area every once in a while, sit in on those, and those are going great. It feels like all these groups now are getting even tighter. Even though you have a group in California or a group over here, all the group leaders seem to be on the same page because our regional advisors are spending quality time and lot and. And a lot of hours putting in to working with leaders around the country. So that is a huge resource right there.

Yeah. And I just remind you that in a group, you're probably going to see stuff you've never dealt with before, and you're going to be thinking, man, I've never gone through that. I don't know. But I can almost guarantee you Pure Desire being here for 25 years now, we've gone through it many, many times. And that doesn't mean we've all been here 25 years. But that collective wisdom is why we're here to help. Because we know this is a difficult area. There's scary stuff that comes up, there's legal stuff that comes up. So as a group leader, just have that in your back pocket, say, I'm not alone, because Pure Desire's got My back. That's why they're here. And I've never seen it, but they have. And I'm going to ask them, hey, what would you do about this? So that regional group advisor is the first step. And if they don't know, they'll say, hey, I'm going to talk to Rich. Or why don't you call Pure Desire? We'll help you figure out what you need to know. So make sure you reach out.

Yeah. And I think, too, after doing this for so long, there's literally nothing I haven't come across in a group. For the most part, some guys aren't sure how to ask that question. So if. If there you have a situation like that and you're just not sure, call me. Because even the regional advisors are calling me. It's like, hey, how do you work? How do you do with this thing? What do we do here? Yep. You know, and it's just experience and being a group. And sometimes those questions are really sensitive questions, but I've heard them.

Yeah.

It is funny when someone says, well, you've probably never heard this, or I'm guessing this is really going to surprise you. It's like, nope, nothing surprises us anymore. So, on that note, Rich, so good to have you here and sharing some wisdom and all the experience you've had. You know how we like to end our podcast by asking our guest, what's a final piece of encouragement or advice you want to leave with our listeners as we wrap up today?

Yeah, you know, I wrote some notes, but I think I'll probably just share more. So from the. I guess the heart.

That's what we want, Rich. We want from the heart.

Because, you know, I said this earlier, that to go into a group with no expectations, and I do this every night and not to be afraid to let the Holy Spirit take over a group. Because sometimes it happens, and it usually happens in the beginning, in the checkout, going through the faster scale. A guy is in crisis, and you just kind of step back and you're saying, okay, we're gonna spend a little bit of time. Sometimes the Holy Spirit says, hey, I'm gonna hijack this group. And then you just have to run with it, because sometimes those groups. And I just had this experience in one of our groups a few weeks ago. It was probably the best single group I've ever been in, where we didn't necessarily get through a lot of the material, but the material was being discussed in this huge open conversation. So that I would encourage leaders to really pay attention to that and to know that again, these guys are coming in a group and they're looking for somebody to just love on them because they've been told, you're not worthy, you're not going to amount to anything. You're going to end up just like, you know, your dad or whatever, whatever that was growing up. These guys have been beat down for the most part their whole lives.

Yeah.

And the last thing we need to do is, is put that kind of pressure on them. We just need to love on them. But as we love on them, there's requirements to be in group and, you know, group guidelines, stuff like that. But to really be able to lead with an open heart and not to be afraid. And actually, I'm speaking myself right now. This just happened to me and this would be a big encouragement for leaders. As I had just last few days ago had this huge spiritual battle and I was up till like midnight, one o'. Clock. I text all the guys in my group at like one o' clock in the morning and let them know. And every single one of those guys responded saying, hey, praying for you.

Wow.

And it was just a, you know, basically saying, I'm not good enough and all this stuff and running from God and running towards God. And one of the guys said he really appreciated the fact that as a leader, I'd be vulnerable enough just to share that.

Totally.

And that went a long way with this guy. And I think to be able to do that in a group says a lot about who you are as a leader.

Thanks for Rich. That's awesome. I love when I get to hear your heart. I mean, one of the things you've been doing this for so long, that kind of peeling back the layers a little bit, are great. Also, you suck. Because now what I'm about to share probably doesn't even relate. But something that I've experienced and just the encouragement I'd give you is leading a group, especially if you've gone forward in recovery. The nice thing is that when you're leading a group and there are guys for the first time are experiencing what health looks like, are finally experiencing what wounds and the trauma they have in their past, and learning how much they've medicated all this stuff in their life, it brings things afresh to me that I remember what it was like to be there. And there are times where it makes me emotional, where I can't even really hold it in because I understand where they're at. I've been there. And what it does is it almost creates like a Mile marker. I look back and I see the starting line, and I'm like, that's where I was four years ago. I was right there. And then look at where I'm at now, where I can see what they're sharing and be like, I'm not there anymore. I'm not there. So there's encouragement there, but then also understanding and feeling afresh. Those things that I felt at the beginning of group, at the beginning of my recovery. And you can't get that if you don't lead a group. You can't. I mean, like, you can go through group and experience some things if you've gone through a second or third time, but leading guys and really being that guide that person who's really. Who's a few years right, maybe a few seasons ahead, man, you can just get so much more. And really, just for me, it's like a. It's a list of God's blessings is what it is. Like, it's a. It's a physical representation of the transformation God has done in my life. And it. That would just be my encouragement for leading a group.

And I think my final encouragement would be. And I feel like I said this at the end of the Betrayal and Beyond, episode two, about leading, but if you're leading a seven Pillars group, thank you. You may never know the impact you're having in people's lives. And the truth is, in the moment, it doesn't seem like much. It's like, well, you know, all I did was say, well, I'll share my story first. And you shared something you'd written nine months ago in your first group, but when you did and you went first, you gave someone else the courage maybe to share a part of their story they never had. And when you opened up the group and just said, well, who wants to go first? You created space for people to find hope, to find out they're not alone, to find freedom. And thank you for your willingness to do that, for jumping in. And even if the group doesn't seem to be going well or it's not what you expected, I hope and pray that you will trust God is using it far beyond what you're seeing, because you're a part of helping others find healing and freedom. And so thank you. Keep at it. And we really hope that you sense God's presence leading you and that you know again from us here at Pure Desire, that you're not alone. We're with you in it, so keep at it. And we look forward to hearing good things.

Yeah. So These types of groups are essential for developing sexual integrity, for restoring any broken relationships you have, and really starting to establish those healthy relationships in your life. And as Nick said, leading these groups is a big commitment, but it's so honorable. And let me just. I'll speak from the heart. Rich, you shared first in this. We know what it's like. We've been there. And we don't just do this every week and release an episode because we are just trying to make more money or whatever you may think it is. We, like these two dudes like I'm sitting with right now teared up a little bit as they were sharing it. Like, we care about this stuff. This stuff saved our lives, our marriages, our ministries, and so we care about this stuff. This means the world to us that you would join in pushing the message of getting healthy. So we really, really hope that this episode gives you the encouragement you need. And look, we talked about it a little bit. If you're thinking about leading groups, we applaud that courage. We also want to let you know that you can contact rich@groupsuredesire.org. you can email or you can call 503-489-0230. Don't hesitate to reach out. Like we said before, Rich has got so much experience in this area and he's here to help and support and encourage you. So, Rich, Nick, thanks, guys. Appreciate it.

Thank you.

Thanks for making it happen, Trevor.

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