090 – I Caught My Spouse, Now What?

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Hey there.

I'm your host, Trevor Windsor and we're so thankful you're taking time out of your day to hang out with us. I'm here as always with my co host, Nick Stumbo.

Heidi Ho there, neighbor.

Have you really never used that one?

I haven't. I looked through and that suggestion actually came to us this weekend. We were up speaking at a men's event in Seattle and a friend of Pure Desire and of the podcast, Kirk came up and shared that one with me and said I haven't heard it yet. So that's good. Bringing back a little Tim the Tool Man Taylor's neighbor Wilson there.

Right, right. You only saw half of his face. So for some of you younger listeners like me, who maybe don't know, you're very uneducated, you should feel terrible about yourself. But that's actually from Home Improvement. That is from an old show called Home Improvement and correct me if I'm wrong, there is now a show called Last Man Standing, which really could just be seemed as a continuation of Tim Allen in Home Improvement.

Yeah, well, his brand of humor is pretty similar. So I don't know if there's a Wilson in the new show.

I don't think so. But we're not gonna keep talking about this. We're gonna move on. We have one of our favorite people on the podcast today, we have Jackie Chambers. Jackie is one of our regional group advisors. She oversees our south region of Pure Desire groups. She's Also a member of our speaking team. We're glad to have her back. Thanks for being here, Jackie.

I am so glad to be back. Thank you for having me.

Yes. Today, with Jackie's help, we're going to talk through the scenario of if a husband or wife catches their spouse in their sexual or their porn addiction. This situation is one that many of us might have been involved in or could be involved with. And this is really a part of Jackie's story. So we hope to lean into her experience with her husband and talk through this really difficult situation. So, Jackie, some of the listeners have probably heard your story. You've been on a few episodes. But can you just give us a quick overview of you and Ernie's story and how sexual addiction played out in your marriage?

Yes. We have celebrated this month 35 years of marriage, which we are so grateful for. But the first 18 years of our marriage was riddled with sexual addiction. We met and we dated for like two years, I mean, two months and got married. Two broken people who found each other and believed that we could make this marriage work. We talked about what we wanted to do for the Lord and Ernie prayed for me, I was the one. And I think for me, you know, just having a low self worth and self value to hear that from a man just made me just want to be with him. And he was just my knight in shining armor. So, you know, we drove to Vegas and said, I do and just believe we could just start this marriage on a good foot. But unfortunately, sexual addiction had played a part very early. And as a matter of of fact, I saw the signs even before we got married. But the lie is once we get married, all that will change. So there we go, starting our life and seeing things that do not belong in the relationship. And you know, him getting caught and there we go with our cycle. And just as the years progress, the times that he got caught was always a different scenario or a different excuse or a different lie. And so I think after 18 years of marriage where all of this keeps happening and there's so many losses and struggles, I just got to the point where I just gave up because there's no hope and there's nothing else that we could do. So we called it quits, or I called it quits. But the blessing is through that time of separation that God had did a turnaround in both of our lives. And we learned so much about ourselves and about addiction and about this recovery process and journey to this is where we are now being able to help others in their Journey of healing and restoration.

So, Jackie, it sounds like in your story you actually caught him multiple times in this. Is that true?

Yes, multiple times. And there's been multiple ways of being caught.

Yeah. What an emotional journey and roller coaster that had to be for you.

Yeah, it was. It was. I just remember, like, the very first caught, which was basically phone numbers on a phone bill, but there were a large amount of phone calls. And you wonder, well, we don't talk that much. Who is he talking to? So, you know so much on the phone. And so, you know, you're just asking, you know, asking him, who is this person? And he said, it was his uncle. And I'm like, well, honey, I never heard you talk about your uncle before. So why are you talking about him so much, you know, to him, if I've never heard him? And so you start doing that investigation, you find out, well, it isn't the uncle, it's another woman. And just how he responded to me of being very sorry, you know, that he got caught. And of course, I won't do it again. So that was a gut punch for me. But we're like, okay, he's crying, he's sincere. We'll move forward, and we just go right back to our same routine. But unfortunately, there was other things that came in after that. And so it does wear on you time after time.

Yeah. And what we're talking about today is such a difficult situation. I mean, obviously for the person catching their spouse in this, the emotions that they go through. But what you're describing, also, the person being caught is incredibly humiliated and angry and fearful. And very, very often a person's natural response is to try to protect themselves and to keep the secret and so lying. And I mean, I hate to kind of say this, but if you're listening and you're in that situation, the other person lying is a high, high probability that they may lie to try to avoid or cover up. And so that's just part of this process that we want to talk a little bit about today. How do we figure out what's real and what's not? So, Jackie, as we think of this topic, though, there may be people tuning in that they're in the middle of it. I mean, the reason they're listening to this podcast is because someone passed it on to them and said, you need to listen to what they have to say. And so Maybe they're within 24 hours of having just caught their spouse in some sort of affair or pornography, and they're reeling with the questions of what to do and what not to do. So based on your experience with this situation, what would you encourage someone to do as the first response or some of the first steps after having caught their spouse?

Well, I like how you use what is the first response. So when you say that, it makes me think of a first respons. So it's like get with a first responder. And a first responder would be either a counselor or a pastor or a therapist who has to deal with sexual addiction or a group or get around safe people who have an understanding and knowing exactly what is happening in your situation. And that's what was my problem. I didn't know what was happening in my situation. And I was looking for first response in other people who could not help me in my situation. And it just kind of helped spiral us down this long. We just spiraled down because we were trying to do what people wanted us to do to help our marriage. But if had we got people who were those first responders who could help us assess the situation, tell us what is going on, and put us in a safe place and environment to where we could get some healing, I think that would have transformed our marriage early on.

So one of the things that really, really sticks out for me in a situation like this is the potential of feeling really, really embarrassed. You know, I've had some. Some friends, I know some people who have been in this situation where pornography or some sort of sexual addiction comes out. And it really is something that they are ashamed and embarrassed to tell anybody or to be honest about it. And so they just put a cloak over it and try to deal with it on their own. You know, whether they're making promises to each other or they're saying, you know what, I'm out, that's it. I think that one of the things that really holds people back is the embarrassment factor that really plays into it. They're so embarrassed that this would even happen, and they're afraid of the judgment that they'll get from those that they know that they know that they could probably even reach out to. And so I think that that would just be. I have not been in this situation. And so I just from, you know, kind of an outsider's perspective, taking into account that you have to overcome that embarrassment and even that shame, that this is a reality if you are going to get help.

Oh, absolutely. That. That is the key. You know, like I said when we first got caught, who am I going to tell? We're like newly married, you know, and so for me to Say, you know, I caught Ernie, you know, talking to another woman. That would be embarrassing for me. It's like, you don't know how to make right choices. You don't know anything about, you know, this person that you just married. And so that is quite, quite embarrassing. And not even realizing the impact that that had made on my life at that time, you know, because we were newly married. And so it's like, I can't be a failure also. This is so early on, but that's what makes this topic so, I guess, difficult to talk about because that is the reality of what we're dealing with. And I did not know the. The amount of damage that was being done because I didn't reach out, but because I didn't know, I didn't know who to reach out to. So we just reached out to our friends, maybe our family, you know, maybe a pastor, just people of authority who have some wisdom, and we reached out to them to help us, you know, and they helped us for a moment or just to a surface extent, but not to the amount of damage that was being done.

Yeah. Finding safe people to reach out to is so crucial. And a couple other things that come to mind for me real quick. In terms of first response, I think there's a strong likelihood that if you've caught your spouse, you're gonna be going limbic. You know, that's a phrase we use a lot, which means our thinking brain, our prefrontal cortex, is shutting down, and we're just reacting out of emotion and fear and that fight or flight. So a crucial thing, and it's small, but you need to practice taking deep breaths and slowing down your heart rate and slowing down your processing, because the likelihood of you making some decisions you'll regret can be high if you're going limbic. And so take deep breaths. And then connected to that, if you've caught your spouse, you need to really keep focusing on your own personal health, as simple as some of this seems. You know, keep eating regular meals and try to get sleep and drink enough water, because I think when people go through really difficult emotional situations, they stop taking care of their own body, and then they put themselves in a very vulnerable situation or a place where they're really not able to make good decisions. So focus on your own health. And I know that might seem counterintuitive because your relationship feels so unhealthy, but the best shot you have of restoring some health to your relationship is if you can stay healthy and make wise decisions as you move forward. So just Some real basic things, but might be helpful as we think about what do I do in the immediate context.

You know, one of the things that happens, I think as a spouse, we become the first responders in this. We become the fix it person. So, you know, we do neglect ourselves because we're the ones that's going to try to fix this situation. And we just keep on going. You know, we're like, okay, this happened. Let's put things in place. Or we talked about it, you know, now we can move on, now we can move forward. And we do. We get. That's where that depletion comes in. And that's what happened to me. Yeah.

So many people who find themselves in this situation and this is. I feel like this is a very, very common thing, they begin to question, did I do something wrong? Is it something I'm doing? Is that really the case? Is that true?

The majority of the time? I think in the beginning that is the case. You do feel that you did something wrong. That's not a true statement. I think that's the lie that happens. But that's what we feel because we're trying to find answers to why this would happen. And unfortunately, if we have a spouse, the spouse may put that blame on us too. So if I catch my husband, you know, there's infidelity and I catch him with another woman, well, it's going to be my fault that he had to go to another woman because of the fact that I'm maybe overweight, I don't clean the house good enough, I'm not good in bed sexually. So he had to go outside of the marriage to get his happiness. So we take on that, we take on that blame and we take on that shame. But one of the things that I'm learning is that is a shame and a blame that I brought into the relationship. You know, looking back through this journey of healing, you know, and my trauma, that was something that was put on me as a child. You know, some I did something wrong. And so if I'm the one who did something wrong, then it is my responsibility to fix it.

Yeah, I think it's crucial we see in a situation like this that I am never responsible for another person's choices. I mean, their, their choices, their decisions are theirs to own. But there are, there are opportunities where we can look at what did I maybe do to contribute, and not in a blaming way. But that's what I love about an interview we did a while back with Rick Bolman and the author of Mended how they both look at a situation where there was an affair and without blaming the others or taking all the blame themselves, they see how did they contribute to maybe a relationship that was lacking emotional connection, maybe ways that we were too addicted to our work or we were too busy, you know, with our hobbies to pay attention to our spouse. So again, certainly not to ever take blame for the other person's choice. But we can look at in a more healthy way, like what could I do to contribute greater health to our relationship without becoming the fix it, as you say, Jackie. So, yeah, yeah.

One of the things that was important that, you know, when I tell part of my story is when we decided to go get back together to restore our marriage. You know, I wanted to go to marriage counseling thinking that the counselor is going to give Ernie more information of what he could do to better the marriage. But the counselor basically stopped the marriage counseling and wanted one on one time with me because in that safe environment with the counselor, he was hearing my self talk, my self worth. And he knew that, you know, as much healing as Ernie was getting and recovery that he was getting, unless I looked at myself and saw the part that I played and how I valued him and our relationship, that this marriage was not going to work. So it is very important that we do look at ourselves and we see the part that we play in a relationship and also the things that, you know, the wounds and the shame that, like I said, that I had brought into the relationship and the expectancy that I had for Ernie to, you know, to bring the happiness that I felt that he needed to do for me in the relationship.

Yeah. So again, we want to be clear to say you are not to blame for their decisions, but very likely for healing to occur, it will need to be healing in both of you because if you just think, oh, I'm going to send my spouse now and fix him or fix her, it probably won't work unless you're also willing to be a part of a healing journey. So, Jackie, in terms of starting that healing journey, when someone's caught their spouse, it's pretty normal to want to know everything, you know, all the details, all the information from your perspective, is that helpful or more hurtful?

That for my experience, that is more hurtful than helpful. And I think because we're coming into that fix it mode again, we're trying to find the answer to the problem, we're trying to understand why this is happening. So we want all the details. Or as a wife, you know, who there's porn or Infidelity that's happening into the relationship. We want to know what, what they have that we don't have. Why is he attracted to that or those per those people as opposed to him being attracted to us. So we want the whole details, I mean to everything. The color of the hair, what they were wearing, what they ate, what restaurant. And once we get those images in our head, then we're comparing ourselves with that image or those details when we just need to know the things that are necessary to keep us in a safe place when we're going through this journey of restoration and recovery.

Yeah, as soon as it becomes about comparison, there's not going to be a win there because that's really starting from a flawed assumption. The assumption being that my spouse ran after these things because there's something lacking in me. And that's simply not how the human brain works. That's not how sin works. That's not how sexual addiction works. It is not because of something lacking in you. And so if we're comparing in all the details, then it's again coming from that flawed assumption. And I try to encourage people to say you don't need to know all the details. It's fair to ask for categories. Categories like, well, did this involve other people or was it only fantasy? Was it online or was it on your phone? Was it on our, you know, the categories of where did it happen? Very factual based, but not the details of what website and what did she look like? And that those sorts of things actually can become very traumatic to try to heal from and really aren't necessary on the healing journey. And what I would include is if you take a healing journey, over time you will discover what details you really need to know. But up front you're more than likely to get way more detail than you need and actually inflict more harm on yourself than is really needed.

Well, and it's one of those things where I think the question is asked, details are asked for in order for if I'm ever going to trust you again. I need to know everything that happened. I need to know every person, everything. And really what I think that does is that creates more triggers than it does. Trust that then you're going to be walking around looking for those things all the time or being more aware of them. And I've heard multiple people share stories of that where if they know a certain type or a certain person or a certain body type and then they're with their spouse and they see someone like that, it's a trigger and it Will feel like it breaks that trust again. Even though maybe trust has been established, it's going to feel like another tweak. It's going to feel like another fracture in that trust. And so just understanding that the more you know is not always the better.

That is absolutely true. It's torture. It is torture.

So how does someone know if they should stay in this situation if they find out that their spouse has had an affair or does have a sexual addiction? A porn addiction has been looking at porn. How do they know if it's unsafe? How do they know if they should stay or if they should go?

This is a. It's a good question, and it's a tough question. I think it would depend on the individual and how the situation is making them feel. When you say, should they stay, you know, or should they go? Is it something that is temporary, like, should they go for, you know, a little bit? And we don't want to have something permanent. So what I was thinking is, you know, I'm thinking of, is the environment toxic for the person? You know, everything may look good, but the environment, like if there's, let's say, mold in the house, even though everything looks good in the house, but that mold is causing a toxic environment. So that toxic needs to be removed from that environment in order for the people to go back into, you know, that environment. So you have to ask yourself, is this causing any toxicity happening in my life? And I may have to remove myself from that. And so what causes toxic. What are the symptoms? Am I having. Am I having headaches? I can't think, it's foggy, I'm having pain. All of these things that are causing me not to function in a normal position. That's something that may have to be removed in order for me to have some clarity and to be back into a safe environment. So I think it really depends on, you know, each individual and where you're at. And the reason why I say that is because a lot of times people may need to leave for a moment. You know, Ernie had to leave. That was a big, tremendous help for me. It helped me to get some clarity. It helped me to look at myself. It helped me to spend more time with the Lord and to see really exactly what was going on in the reality of my situation without having him to be a distraction or maybe not to hear his deception or manipulation or even for me, in my vulnerable state, feel sorry for him. So I needed a safe place in a safe environment to get some healing.

Yeah, what you're talking about Jackie is like purposeful separation. And I think there is a lot of value in that. In order for a spouse to get some clarity, some space to think, to make healthy decisions, and really, the long term, the outcome of your marriage isn't something you should be worried about right now. Because right now you're basically doing, like, triage care. You're trying to stop the bleeding. You're trying to see where things are at. And then, you know, three months down the road, six months, based on what's happening, is there humility in your spouse? Are they really showing with their actions that they're working to rebuild trust? Has this opened new doors of communication? You can assess that much better three to six months down the road. But in the immediate, if you're just feeling like, I've got to get out, well, maybe that purposeful separation. And I would also add that more often than not, it's the offending spouse who will go. As in your story, you said, jackie, it was Ernie that needed to leave. And if the person who has caused the issue is typically the person that will go, you know, stay at the pastor's house or a close friend or a family member so that the one who's been hurt and wounded has some time and space to work through what they need to.

Yeah. I think another practical. Just thought is really, if, like, there's harm or if there's abuse or if the kids in the house feel physically or emotionally unsafe, I think it's important that there is separation there. You know, another thing, too, I think it. It really also depends. And you guys feel free to disagree, but I think it depends on how the person who. Who's the offendee or who is the one who struggling. How that person responds, I think will also dictate it. If that person blows up and says, I've done nothing wrong, I'm not doing anything that I'm not capable or allowed to do or whatever, that's one thing. But if they are willing to move forward and get help right away, if they respond in humility, I feel like those two responses would dictate a different response from the spouse that caught them. It doesn't mean that separation still doesn't happen. If there is humility, but just also paying attention to the response and how that plays out, I think that that could be a good indicator on what should happen next.

Yes. And I. And that. That is so true, you know, and that's where it comes with feeling safe. It's just very important that you could feel safe around, you know, the spouse and. And he respects, or, you know, they respect your boundaries. And so if you could put boundaries up and say, this is what I need, and there may not have to be any separation, I just need for you to sleep in the other room and just give me some space. Space. And if they're able to respect that boundaries, then I think that would help, you know, with the relationship of going forward and allowing the person, the spouse, to get some healing.

All right, Jackie, next question here. So, I mean, no one wants this to be their situation, but unfortunately, in this whole arena of our sexual brokenness, sometimes what a person has been doing is illegal. And so if there are illegal actions on the part of the spouse who's been caught, what is our responsibility? If we're the other spouse, what should we do? What is our role in that situation?

You know, just thinking about this question, you know, the. You know, because I've lived this, it's like the first thing that comes up, the emotion that comes up is fear and the what ifs, you know, what if they go to jail, how we're going to take care of the bills, what if, you know, how is this going to affect our reputation? All of these things. These are the first things that come up. Even though, you know, the person may know that what their spouse is doing is illegal and that, once again, that's why it's so important for them to get into a safe place and around safe people so they would have the courage to do the right thing. And one of those things is you calling the authorities. You know, and we don't recognize that we may think we're, you know, doing something harmful to our spouse even though they did something illegal. But what we're doing is probably saving their lives and putting them in a place where they could really get some healing. And we're putting other people that may have been harmed by them out of harm's way. So it's so tough, you know, when you're thinking about that. But it is so important to have the support, but also to have the courage to do the right thing, which is, you know, calling the authorities if there's something illegally happened and getting those people who are in harm's way, you know, out of the way and into a safe place.

And I think that that's such an important piece is it's not. You need to take into consideration everyone that's involved, not just the spouse who might have done something that's illegal, because they may continue to move forward in that. In that type of. Type of Action in that type of behavior. And you want to create a safe place for, you know, because I think the first thought when you ask this question is potentially your children. Like, is that something that has taken place in my house? And I think that it's just really important to take everything into perspective, take the whole situation and everyone who's potentially involved and think through that holistically, rather than just how would this affect just my spouse, because there could be ramifications either way.

And I was thinking of a situation that we knew about where there was something that had happened into a child. And I think because of the fear, the spouse, they just took off with the children. But the spouse who needed the help, they were just still out there. And so they were coming and they wanted help. And because they revealed something that they did illegally, you know, we had to call, you know, the authorities. And by us calling the authorities, it. To me, it was for this gentleman because he couldn't do it himself because we did. It was a cry for help that he needed and he wanted, but it also helped put him in the place. I think that was going to start him on the path. Even though he may have went to jail, but it still started him on a path of healing for himself. But I think because of his wife, because of her fear, she just took off. And we don't know what happened with that, with that situation there.

Yeah, sometimes a person has to face the music in order to really find freedom. They need to face the full consequences of their actions. And if we, as a spouse try to protect them from that, we may actually be keeping them from their healing because we're trying to make it all better. And that's not our job. So it's really hard. You know, we'd recommend doing this with the help of a counselor, with the help of a lawyer. I mean, not making any major decisions, just flippantly or on your own. So get good wisdom from safe people, but it's not your job to shield them from what could be the outcomes. And those outcomes, again, could be God's hand to really bring about a new story of redemption and healing.

And I truly believe that. And like you said, if we could get people around us like a counselor, you know, that could help us see the benefits of doing that, you know, and helping. You know, we talk about that recovery action plan in group. I think it's so important to have that in place. So when things like that do happen, you already know what to do and. And you have your support with you. That's going to give you the courage to be able to do that.

So, Jackie, for couples in this situation who have kids, should they tell their kids about this? And if they should, what do they tell them? How do they tell them?

I believe they should tell their kids about this because I guarantee their kids know something is going on. Something is different with, you know, mom and dad and, you know, and they. If they don't know, if they're not told, they're going to have their own interpretation of what's going on. So as a parent, if we could share with our children what's going on in an age appropriate way for them, we don't have to give them full details. We could tell them if they're very young, you know, mom and dad are going through something right now, but we are doing our very best to work through this situation and what we're actually, you know, doing. Dad's getting help, Mom's getting help. We may have to, you know, separate for a time, but we are still here for you, and we really want this to work out. And, you know, these are the things that we have in place. And we would also ask you, would you participate in this healing by, you know, praying for us? And then ask them to, is there any questions that you may have? And ask them how they see it, and if there's anything that is bringing them any fear or hurt or even them feeling rejected, then ask them, allow them to talk, allow them to share their feelings, you know, of what they believe is going on. Because the more they can participate, the more they have a voice, I believe the more secure they would feel, you know, as we, you know, walk through this.

Yeah. I think it's so important to be open, to just be vulnerable, but at the same time to take the pressure off our kids, to feel like they need to fix it or they need to help us, that they need that freedom to be kids. So I think we need to communicate to them, you know, that we're seeing a counselor, that we're talking to other people that are helping us so that they're not carrying a burden of, oh, my goodness, how do I help mom and Dad? I mean, really, the focus is on them. How do we help them stay healthy through this time? So just be real clear to communicate that to them that I'm bringing you into this because I want you to know what's happening, but I'm not putting it on you to make things better or to help me fix the situation.

Yeah. And if they. If they don't share something, like, if you say, if you do, Jackie, like you're saying, open it up and ask them questions. And they don't say something. Now, that still helps teach them that the culture in your house has now shifted to where they can come to you if they have questions down the road. So it really is something that you're helping your family, even if they don't take advantage of it right away, you're helping your family shift that culture to a place where they can come to you and ask questions about this. And that really only happens because you opened the door in honesty, what's going on. So I just. I mean, for me, if a family is going to do that, that makes me excited because that changes the way that that family can live for the rest of their lives.

Yeah, and that's what happened, you know, with Ernie when he talked with the girls. And he, you know, shared with him, you know, what he had done, you know, at age appropriate, of course, you know, and how it had hurt the family, how it hurt me, and the steps that he was taking, you know, with that. And he was also encouraged because, you know, they're like, daddy, you know, we're gonna pray for you, you know, and we're here for you. So that just really made him feel good that he could continue, you know, with his own recovery, knowing that, you know, we're all in this together.

Jackie. This is a situation that can be so difficult and so emotionally charged. We've talked about a lot of steps, what to do, but let's really focus in on the what not to do's. What are some of the pitfalls or things you would encourage a person to avoid in this situation?

One of the pitfalls that to avoid is doing something permanent when we're in a very emotional or angry state and doing things with the wrong motives. You know, when I talk about us trying to control and trying to fix it, you know, we're doing that out of, you know, either our shame or out of safety or out of control. And sometimes we think, well, if I, you know, yell at my spouse, then he'll get it. Or if I threaten him with divorce, that'll change him. Or if he sees how angry I am, like if I pour bleach on his suits that he needs to go to work with, you know, that'll make him see things, you know, differently. And we use all these tactics because we want them to understand, you know, that this is really hurting us and that you really need to change. But what we don't realize is the damage that we cause you know, when we do things like that and sometimes we put ourselves in a very bad situation when we're reacting and we're responding to try to get them to change, which caused maybe some permanent consequences. You know, going if there's infidelity, you go to the other woman's house, you're making a scene, you get arrested, you go to jail. You know, how are you going to take care of the kids when you're in jail? You know, there's just things like that that we get so emotionally charged that we don't think about the consequences of what's going to happen. So we just really need to put a plan together. We really need to see and evaluate what's going on so we know how to go forward and not make those permanent decisions that we may regret down the line.

One of the things that we talked about earlier was the idea of sharing it with someone, being honest and reaching out for help. Now I think that that can go to an extreme where you then begin to air this out with everyone in your community and everyone on your church or on your social media feed like anger can be a very controlling thing and it really can blow up to something to where you're just trying to drag their reputation through the mud and where that's a normal emotional response. I think that that does more down the line then it feels good at the beginning. Right. Because that feels very, very good at the beginning. It can feel very justified. But I think that in that you really have to be careful how much you're honest. Where's that line? Who are the like, you know, four or five people in our community that can be the people that I confide in, that I trust in that help me but really to not expand it too wide. And I'm speaking as someone who likes to share way too much to way too many people. So I'm speaking out of personal here with anything. But I think the principle applies here to just be careful. We're not over sharing about what's going on.

Yeah. And I think we have to be careful in running to our family. I mean, it might seem like they're the safe people, but your family is naturally disposed to love you and be against anyone that hurts you. And you can very, very easily create a situation where they're hating him and he's hurtful, get him out of your life and. And they're going to take your side. And so when you think about safe people to go to, try to think about people that will care about your relationship, your marriage, just as much as they care about you, because they're going to give, I think, more thoughtful advice and not just one sided. And so yeah, your family needs to know, there needs to be some openness there. But if they're the people you're running to and confiding in, it can just really make it difficult to restore the relationship. Because maybe you and your spouse work things out, but now your family all knows what your spouse did and they're mad at your spouse still. And now they've, it's like your spouse needs to restore a relationship with a whole bunch of people. So there are certainly very mature, wise, loving families that can be helpful. But I think in most cases, running to our parents and blabbing about what he did or she did actually will in the long run make a more difficult situation. So just be thoughtful of that when you consider who do I run to to ask for help?

And that's why it was important for me. I ran to a counselor because I, I did share with someone what was going on and this one person. And based on what I shared, it was too much. She couldn't handle it. And instead of her having, you know, empathy for me or, you know, encouragement, it turned to where she says, well, you put up with this for so long that something must be wrong with you. And because of my emotional state that I was in, I was really believing something was wrong with me. And she, you know, was then trying to interfere and kind of control the situation because, you know, of course, if I'm crazy, I don't know how to make good decisions. And so by me going to a counselor, it was her who helped me break down and show that there's nothing wrong with you. This is something that happens in situations like this and you need to be careful of the people that you have around you. So I had to break that relationship off because it was like I was stuck in a web and I was trapped. So I didn't know how to get out. By having a safe and sound voice to help guide me out of that, it really helped me to even move forward to say, okay, I really need to get even some deeper work and healing going on here because that took me out. I mean, it really caused some anxiety in me. And so I had to really pull back and just really get to like just a safe person. And then finding a safe women's group and just going through the women's group and intensive, it was very empowering because it helped me to understand that once again, this is not my fault. I didn't do nothing wrong. And it validated my feelings and it validated the decisions that I was making, and it helped me put some things in place to where I could go forward in this and even see, you know, the light at the end of the tunnel.

Well, Jackie, because you have lived this. You have lived this reality because you also are a regional group advisor and talk to so many women in your region that are going through these groups that maybe have had these experiences. What final encouragement would you give from all that experience, from all that expertise that you have really in this area? What final encouragement would you give to anyone listening who finds themselves in this situation?

The encouragement that I would give is just to have hope in that you will and can get through this pain and through this process. You know, I think about that bubble. You know those bubbles you see in the mall, those big bubbles, they put you in this bubble and they put you on the water. Have you seen those at the mall? I just call it a big bubble. And so they put you in this bubble, they fill it with air, and then they put you out on the water. And so when you're on this and you're in this bubble, you're trying to stand up, you're trying to walk, and you try to do all of these things and you can't. You keep falling and you're not going anywhere. So that's how you feel when you're in the midst of this. I'm trying to walk, I'm trying to go forward, I'm trying to do this, and I am going nowhere. And so you get so exhausted doing that. So until someone could pull you out of that water, unzip that bubble, take you out, and put you on a solid foundation, that's where you need to place yourself and just. Just trust the process. We just think sometimes there's no hope because it's so painful and we can't see what's before us. But if you could get into that safe environment and you could use the tools that is before you and get around those first responders again, keep going forward, you will see some good results and you will find out how much healing and restoration that you have as you look back. And hopefully you have some restoration in the marriage.

I think my thought as we close is that if you're listening and this is your situation right now, this probably feels like your worst day. But if you will allow it, God can really redeem this. And you may look back one day and see this is one of the best days. And I want to encourage you with that, even if your spouse doesn't pursue their healing, because there will be some spouses that just keep heading off in the wrong direction. But you need to pursue your health. You need to pursue relationship and community for you. And even if your spouse doesn't go on that journey, the things God can do in you, I think you'll truly be grateful for, as you've heard, Jackie, sharing. And even better, if your spouse does take that healing journey with you, what can happen in your marriage and so allow God to use this. And I really believe it's the kind of thing that becomes part of our story, part of our testimony, and God can use it in ways we never imagined. So. So, as Jackie said, hold on to hope and keep moving forward.

And I would just echo, just reach out and get help. Don't wait, reach out right away. Most of us don't have a master's degree in how to handle this situation. And so don't assume that off the bat you're going to respond the right way or know exactly what to do if the situation comes up. So just be aware that Pure Desire is here to help. Be aware that there are men and women across the world who have this experience. And reach out. You really need to get help. Jackie, thanks so much, really. Again, I just. I love you. You're one of my favorite people and I love when you share your story and give us your perspective. This is a really, really hard situation and it's really easy for a lot of people, especially on the front end of this, to feel so hopeless and so alone. And for any listener out there, we hope that hearing some of Jackie's story and her experience, we hope that that helped bring some hope to your situation. If you want to hear Jackie and Ernie's full story, they give it all. On episode 47 of the podcast, they share their story and how they found restoration and got healing in their marriage. It's not just because Jackie is amazing, though. That is a part of it. If you want to help or are in need of hope, you can contact us directly. Our number is 503-489-0230. The best way to heal from these situations, really, is to reach out and to ask for help. We can help. Our group structure is created to put people together who have shared experiences and help them walk the roadmap of healing. So, Jackie, thank you for leading, thank you for being awesome, and thanks for sharing and being with us.

Thanks for having me. Yeah.

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