091 - I Got Caught, Now What?

Welcome to the Pure Desire Podcast where we partner with you to bring hope and freedom on your journey to purity. Hey ladies. I wanted to let you know about an upcoming event, the Pure Desire Women's Conference. This two day conference is designed to help all women find grace and peace in their daily lives. Doesn't that sound nice? Regardless of where you've been in your life, through this event you'll get a break from the daily grind. You get a fresh dose of encouragement and look. You'll also get practical tools to help you find emotional, spiritual and sexual health. This conference is from April 5th through 6th at the Sheraton Portland Airport Hotel. I'm excited for you to hear from Heather Kolb, Ashley Jamison, and our featured speaker, Patty Moreno. Come gather with other women looking to find ways to be healthier people in today's world. To register and get more info on the speakers on the schedule and more, visit PureDesire.org PDWomen Again, that's PureDesire.org PDWomen that's all I got for now. Enjoy the podcast. Hey there. I'm your host, Trevor Windsor and we're so thankful you're taking time out of your day to hang out with us. I'm here as always with my co host, Nick Stumbo.

April Showers bring May flowers.

That's right. That is right. So some of you who have not done podcasts before maybe don't realize that we don't always record these and post them on the same day. So we are technically recording in March, but this will air in April. So there's a little behind the scenes fact for you.

I just feel the need to apologize because to me that felt like a pretty lame intro and I just. We had two podcasts today. I felt good about the first one, but I just didn't have the intro for this one. But you know you can't have a winner every time, right? Sometimes you have to just hit singles.

Right? The principle of sloppy seconds is definitely a thing in the podcast world. So this is our second one today, but we are excited. We have one of our favorite people and I said that the last episode, but it's also true for this one. We have Ernie Chambers. Ernie is one of our regional group advisors, oversees our south region of the Pure Desire groups. He's married to Jackie Chambers, who we heard from last week and so he has lived the situation we are going to be talking through today. Ernie, thanks for being here, man.

Thank you for having me and welcome.

Yeah, you know, it almost feels like we needed to air These two episodes back to back. Because if you were a spouse who's in the situation we're talking about today that's been caught in some kind of sexual sin or addiction or affair, you maybe feel like you got a little bit hammered on last week, and we didn't offer you much hope or help. So hopefully this week balances it out where we really can give some solid advice and encouragement to the guy or gal that's been caught in their stuff and they're reeling from it. So we're glad they're tuning in.

Yes, indeed.

And that's the thing we're going to chat through really this. This tough situation, and we're gonna talk through some ways we can handle it so that we set up for future movement, future movement toward restoration and health. So, Ernie, maybe some of our listeners haven't heard your story or your side. You know, we heard some of on the episode with your wife, but can you give us a quick overview of really the addiction and that side of your story and how it all came to light in your marriage?

Well, my addiction started back in my adolescent years when I was about 7 years old. And through those years, I had the opportunity, or not even opportunity, but I was just exposed to behaviors that I didn't really know anything about. And as I entered my teenage years, it just manifested itself because of the things I surrounded myself with, not by choice, but what I saw, what I was told, you know, what was spoken to me and over me. And it led to some behaviors that really intensified as I kept living and focusing on that. Got married, brought it into my marriage, infidelity, adultery, affairs, you name it, porn usage was involved, the whole gamut. And it led to a loss of a job, destruction in my marriage, almost lost my family. And I just had a crisis of truth. And I had to realize, you know, hey, what's important to me? My family or this mess I'm in? And I made a conscious decision. I wanted help. There was really not much help out there during that time back in 2000, and I just needed to get some help somewhere. So after going to Everyman's battle, after going to support group, I really got some help when I joined this pure desire group. And it really opened my eyes to what I was going through and made me realize I'm a better man than this and I need to find out who I was in Christ. And after going through the process of understanding the problem, educating myself on it, and with the really sole help of Jackie, my wife, and helping me understand what my Problem was we both teamed up and we just went at it together. And to this day, I'm very thankful, not only to God, but to Jackie for giving me an opportunity to really redeem myself.

Yeah, well, we're excited to get your wisdom and experience in this area of what to do if we've been caught. What if we get caught red handed in the middle of our addiction or our sin? And so it occurs to me that many of us spend years, if not decades maybe, telling ourselves the lie that no one needs to know. They'll never find out, it's not hurting anyone because they don't know. And then all of a sudden, we're exposed, the lid gets pulled off, and there it is. And it's a pretty emotional time. It's a pretty raw and difficult time. But what kind of encouragement would you give someone if they've recently been caught or exposed in their issues and behaviors? What are some first steps they need to take? Or what are just some initial ways that they can respond that would help move them forward as opposed to just trying to fix it and make it go away?

Well, you know, Nick, with me, I had to realize that I did have a problem. Most guys that I worked with have a tendency to think that they don't have a problem. They think that it's normal for men to go through this as part of being a man. But you know, the collateral damage that was involved, the people that were hurt, not only my wife and daughters, but friends and family, relatives, and most of all, God. You know, I had to realize that what kind of. If I call myself a child of God, what was I doing to please him? And my behaviors were really erratic and out of control. And I think with me, the one thing that I had to do is acknowledge that I had a problem, confess it, and what did I want to do about it? Did I want to continue living this way, or do I want to get some help? And where can I turn? Who can I turn to? Because most people didn't understand my situation. They knew what I was doing, but they didn't know how to help me. So I had nowhere to turn. But Jackie was my only source. And we got together and we really figured it out. She did the homework, I did the follow up, and I just committed myself. And I just want to encourage those that are undecisive, uncertain about what they need to do is to reach out, acknowledge, seek that help. Because it's out there now. There's no reason why you can't find the help. It's out there. And you have more options now than I did almost 20 years ago. So I just want to encourage those who are, who are facing exposure or have faced exposure to really identify in confessing, acknowledging and moving forward and just giving it. Giving it to God.

Yeah. What I hear you saying, Ernie, is how important humility is and that willingness to change. I know in my experience now I wasn't caught because I'd usually confess before I was caught, but there are some similarities. And I know my focus far too often would be on trying to fix the situation or fix my wife's pain. And I wasn't putting near enough attention on how to actually fix me. And I think that's also what you're saying is we have to be willing to look inside and say, I need to do some work here. And part of that is believing that we can be free, believing that we can change. And I think for many men or women that have been struggling a long time, they maybe feel like, well, this is just the way it's going to be. I can't really help it. Don't all men do this? And we're here to say change is possible, but you've got to be willing to humble yourself and seek that help to find that path towards freedom, you.

Know, and maybe it's probably because I've been doing. I'm the marketing communications guy here at Pure Desire. And so for me, I tend to think in numbers. And one of the things that I've been really thinking about a lot has been the idea of what kind of investment you're making now pays dividends later. And so that's just the way that I think about this. And you guys are right on that. If I invest in humility up front, if I get caught and I'm humble at the get, and I'm willing to own what's mined at the end, it's going to pay more dividends than if I were to keep it quiet or be dishonest or deflect or blame someone else. It's just that idea of if I'm willing to be honest and own what's mine in a really humble. And look, humility is not fun. It sucks. It is never, at least for me, it's never my first reaction or my first response to think humility. But if you can do that, it's going to pay dividends exponentially down the road, not just for your health, but also for the health of your marriage and your family and your kids, definitely. And then your kids. Kids. It's definitely A legacy that you're setting. And so understanding that the investment in humility, you guys are right on. It's huge. So when you find yourself in this situation where you've been caught doing something wrong, just in your experience, Ernie, what should you avoid? What should you not do? Kind of flipping the script on this. On this last question.

Oh, man. I think the one thing that I did was I had to avoid denial. You know, I had to avoid running away from the problem because too much collateral damage was done. You know, I hurt too many people. Relationships were broken and destroyed, and they knew what I was doing. You know, my behaviors were very open and transparent as far as my communication with them, and they knew something was wrong, and they encouraged me, get some help, man. I don't care where you go, but get some help. And I think getting out of that denial stage and just acknowledging it and then finding the help, talk to somebody. I went talk to my pastor. I wouldn't talk to. I had three guys that I had accountability with and didn't really know that it was as much accountability as I needed. But these guys, I confided in them. I let them know what I was going through, and I needed their support. And these were the three guys that really were my backbone back then. And they really didn't have an idea of the severity of what I've done, but they knew that I had a problem, and they wanted to just encourage me to just seek help. And they're there for me. The things that I wouldn't I should avoid or shouldn't do is continue to lie about it, stop lying about it, because, you know, the evidence is there. You know, the hurt and the pain is there. The family members and everybody involved, they see it. And when we take ownership of what we've done, especially in this addicted behavior situation, it shows them that we recognize we have a problem and we're aiming to do something about it. So I think those are some of the things that really helped me is getting out of that denial and accepting what I've done and taking ownership of it and then not hiding behind or having a facade of feelings and emotions that made it look like I didn't have a problem.

Yeah, there's a sense in this situation that we wanted to get caught. A part of us wanted to be exposed. And so we need to see this as an opportunity to let that crud, Let that stuff in our life come to the surface and be dealt with. But if we deny or minimize or continue to lie about it, it just prolongs the pain and prolongs the process. You know, I've heard Dr. Ted Roberts in our counseling department here say that spouses don't leave because of the truth. They leave because of the lies. And so we have this fear that, well, if they know the whole truth, they'll leave. Me and Ted and Diane Roberts have talked about how you would. You would not believe what couples can survive. You would not believe the amount of infidelity or issues that when there's truth and humility and a true desire to change, spouses can make it work. The ones that don't, by and large, are the ones where there's ongoing deception and attempts to cover up. And I guess that'd be my encouragement. If you're in this situation, let it be big, let it be the end point, where it all comes to the surface and you deal with it versus trying to self protect and self manage is just going to make it worse.

Bring light to the darkness.

That's right.

And don't. Genesis 3 Don't blame. Right. That's the thing. Adam blamed Eve. And that is the default position of the human condition is to point the finger to someone else. Well, someone did this to me when I was a kid or.

Well, if you.

Right. You're not giving me what I need, I'm not getting what I deserve. Whatever. Don't point the finger. Because if you point the finger, you know, you've heard that thing. If you point one finger at me, you're pointing four back at yourself. Right. Like that principle applies even though it's cheeseball, it applies. The idea is you're the one who decided to act this way. And so take responsibility, don't blame. And understand. Here's the thing. I have to say this. Understand that in the blood of Christ, you can take responsibility, but that's paid for. You don't have to wear that shame. You have to own the consequences of what happened. But you don't have to wear that as your identity and so don't blame other people.

Totally agree.

Yeah. Good stuff. So, Ernie, when we've been caught like this, when we're in a situation where things are being exposed, it's really normal for our spouse to want to know all the details. I mean, the nitty gritty, right down to the finest little thing that happened. If we're the one that's been caught, should we give into that and just share every single detail or how do we maybe navigate that difficult situation?

Well, the one thing that I did with Jackie is once I returned from a conference that I went to, I sat down with both my daughters, Danielle and Kendra and Jackie, and I just began to share with them my experience and what was going on in our marriage and what I did to their moms. And, you know, it was pathetic. It was hurtful, but I didn't share everything. And I believe that just letting them know, Jackie and the girls, just letting them know, hey, dad, did something really bad, you know, I didn't treat your mom correctly. I didn't love her like I should. You know, I was doing things that really wasn't making our marriage whole. And I talked to them on a level to where they understood that there was something wrong. And I left it at that. And I didn't divulge everything because right now, the exposure of the pain and hurt that they received was enough already. And to go into detail, and there was explicit details as well. They weren't prepared to receive that. So I decided to just hold on to it to a later time to where I was healthy enough to bring the truth and they were healthy enough to receive it. So I just waited. And I felt that that was the best thing to do in our situation, because throwing. It's like dumping a big trash can full of guck and muck on your loved ones and expecting no smell. It's going to be dirty, it's going to be messy, it's going to be nasty, and it's going to be painful. And so the best thing that I can suggest based on my experience and what I went through, is just letting them know that there's been some damage, some hurt, some pain caused by myself and take ownership of it. And then later I'd like to talk to you guys about it. And it's more receptive that way. When they see that I'm willing to talk and they see my heart. So that's where I am with really opening up and sharing that. And I wouldn't divulge everything because they're not ready for it. Nobody's ready for that.

Well, and understand too, that as the addict or the person who's struggling, getting everything out there is important. But understanding that your spouse and your kids or your family, they don't have to be that those people. And that's the whole point of really being in a group. And that's why pure desire groups are set up the way that they are. That's why disclosure is a part of group where you can actually, for the first time. And I remember, I don't know if I've said this on this Podcast. But I remember when I shared for the first time that I had had a sexual experience with another guy when I was a young kid. And I remember it was the one thing I was taking to my grave. No one would ever, ever know. No one would know. I remember shaking as I was reading my full disclosure, the paper just rustling around. And I just remember finally when I said it, there was just this huge weight that came off of my shoulders. And so I know the power of being able to be fully honest. And I think a lot of people, especially if you get caught, you want that, you want to be able to just spew it all out there. But understand that your spouse, your family is not the people to spew on. It's. You need to find that safe place in a group of people who have shared experiences, who are that safe place can take that on. So just be aware of that.

Yeah. And we want to be clear that your spouse does need to know everything. But that's why in a pure desire group we take people through a disclosure process so that it's fact based, not emotional, that it's more about the extent of your behavior and not the details. So to really think through, how do I get it all out there? Because like you said, Ernie, bring it all into the light but not be sharing unnecessary unhelpful details like about our fantasy life or particular websites or things that just, they don't really help anyone. So a disclosure process that with wisdom you can walk through and see, okay, here's how I can make sure it's all out there. That's what we really advocate and not just to do what we call emotional vomiting or what you said, Ernie, of dumping the garbage can out on someone, being like, aren't you so proud of me for getting all this on you? And they're like, no, it stinks. So there's a way to do it that it's still hard, but at least it's more redemptive when we do it with a lot of thought and wisdom.

Yeah. Well, you know, one thing that I'd like to mention, you know, stagnant disclosure. I know Ted talked about that previously, stagnant disclosure. I kind of explained it to our guys in our group like replacing the dagger in our wives heart and turning it again. And every time we bring stagnant disclosure together it's like I'm doing it to you again. How about this? How do you feel about this? Are you ready for this? And it's, it's, it's very damaging. It's very Damaging. So I try to encourage the guys to just wait until they complete the group, pure desire group and get with a counselor. Write, have your disclosure written down so that you will have three to five months to really put your thoughts down, put the truth down, put everything down so that there won't be anything unsaid and undone. In that way, you can have disclosure with that mediator, with that, with that layperson or whoever it may be that could help ease the pain so that your wife can be receptive to your disclosure.

And two, the idea of waiting that length of time, especially if you're in a group, you're able to not only better understand maybe and get a scope with it all written down, what actually happened, but also you're digging into why it happened. You're digging into what's at, really at, at the root of your addiction and how it played out. And so instead of that staggered disclosure where you just over and over and over again, you're waiting a period of time so that you can create the full narrative and then reveal that in a way that is gonna be less damaging in the long run. May hurt a lot at the beginning when you first tell it, but it's gonna be a whole lot better than if you just stagger it over and over and over. So. So, Ernie, because of this situation, it's super easy for a family to feel very, very unsafe, to want to leave, to, to take time away. If you're someone who is in this situation and you've been caught, how do you respond to that? What do you do if your family does want to leave or if separation needs to happen?

Well, that very same thing happened to me with Jackie and I. Towards the middle of my beginning recovery, Jackie had decided that it was time for me to leave because of some scary situations that really put my family in danger. And she told me that I had to leave. And it was fearful to be away from my family, to be away from my daughters, to be away from my only connection in life really. And. But I had to accept it because I was a threat to their safety, I was a threat to their well being. And I didn't want to put my family in that type of predicament. I've done enough already. And I just felt that who am I to say this isn't right? I'm not in my right mind, I'm not. My mindset is thwarted, you know, I'm not thinking clearly. And she came to the conclusion that, you know, we're not safe, we're not protected, and with you still in your mess and not getting the help yet, we need to feel safe. And I had to understand that. I had to get out of myself and understand what my family was asking of me and demanding of me. And so I respected that and I left. And I left for about six months. And, you know, it was peace for my family, peace for Jackie and the girls. And I had to understand that, and I had to just take myself away from the situation and seek the help that I needed. And I think that was best. So I encourage them. If you've been asked to leave, you need that time to really get a hold of yourself and let God come in and do what he needs to do. It's a process, and it's going to take a while, but you need to get that process started. And it starts with you coming out of yourself, denying yourself, and protecting your family.

Well, the problem can be when a lot of men in particular see this as, like, punishment. And so they're resistant to it and they feel like it's shameful. And from that perspective, yeah, it's hard to be open to it. But if we could shift our mindset and see this as a way to serve our spouses, as a way to provide for them what they need for their healing, and to see that it may actually be healthy for us, too. Even, you know, being asked to sleep in a separate bedroom. I know men that, you know, they put their foot down and like, well, we're married and we're. And they don't see they're making it worse. Their. Their wife is asking for space to work on something and. And to be open to that as to say, honey, if that's what you need, I'm. I'm okay with that. And trusting that God will use that as you pray through what. What's the purpose of this separation? So I would encourage, if you're a man or woman being asked to leave, you know, make sure you go to a safe place. Go be around safe people. Don't put yourself in a more vulnerable place by, you know, living in an apartment by yourself where no one knows you. I mean, that's an exposed place to be. So who's a family member, who's a friend, who's a pastor, someone that you'll still feel a sense of being known and being safe. Try to go to a place like that.

Absolutely. And I think that what you guys are talking about takes humility again. And that just seems to be a theme already through these questions, that you can't do that unless you have a humble posture where you really want what's best for everyone else involved as well. So really keep that in mind.

So, Ernie, here's a kind of tough part of this situation. Maybe what someone's been caught up in is illegal. And if they've been caught in something illegal, what kind of steps do they need to take?

Oh, wow. I ran into a couple of those Just recently, earlier, 2018, my situation regarding my job, you know, being in corrections for 15 years and having to face the reality of over familiarization, it was illegal, it was against the laws. And when I went in my investigation hearing, I admitted I didn't lie, I didn't pacify anything, I didn't hide behind anything. I knew I had a problem and I felt the only way to direct this problem for attention is to just confess to bring truth to this situation and don't hide behind anything because I'm only going to make it worse. I'm only going to make the punishment more severe. And this is my way out to really see myself getting help for a serious problem that I've had for so long. And that process went very smoothly. Charges were not pressed, although there were anticipation of pressing charges. But God made a way to where there were no charges filed. And I was so thankful. And those were signs to let me know that I was on the right road to recovery. I was on the right road to doing the right thing. So I encourage men in our groups and our Pure Desire groups in our orientation. I always have a session to where we talk about legal problems. If you're on parole, if you can't be around certain environments or people or anything like that, I always suggest talk to someone, get with me so that we can make sure that this is a conducive environment for you to succeed. If you're facing legal problems, let me know. You know, we need to put you in an environment to where it's going to be conducive for you to succeed and be honest and transparent about it. Don't lie, because things have a tendency to catch up with you right when you think you're doing well. I'd hate for a probation officer or your social worker to come into our group and do something crazy and then everybody's subpoenaed, then the confidentiality throughout the whole group is broken. And now we've put everybody in a situation to where our group is done, you know, and I don't want to put any men in that situation. So we have things in place to really help protect them when it Comes to legal problems. But that's why we have orientation. We want to let these guys know we're here for you and we want to be there for you. And legal problems we have to address before you start the group. So just want to encourage them in that.

So I did a little bit of research and by that I mean I talked to Rich Moore, our international group coordinator about this. And the two things that he told me was that getting an attorney is really important practically, especially if something is illegal, getting an attorney is important. And then also he talked about the importance of self reporting. That if you come forward and self report, that always looks better and may not necessarily. Because let's be honest, Ernie, your situation worked out really, really well. Not everyone's is gonna work out as cleanly or as smoothly, but self reporting is going to always help that process. Doesn't mean it's gonna make it better, but it's always gonna be better if you self report. And then also just, I mean, and we've said it so many times just to reach out to us, you know, maybe you wanna reach out to Ernie, maybe you wanna reach out to Rich, maybe you just want to call our number. Just reach out. I mean, that's just always going to be the most important thing you can do. Alright, Ernie. So if an addiction is revealed in a marriage and they have kids and we talked to Jackie, your wife, about this a little bit last week. From the perspective of the addict or the person struggling, should we tell our kids about what's going on? And I think, you know, through a conversation last week, the answer is yes. So my question is, what do we tell them? How do we tell them, you know, talk about your experience a little bit in that.

Well, as I mentioned earlier, I, you know, I did talk to the girls, my two girls, and at the time they were 10 and 5. But I knew that I were talking to children. And so I just let them know that I hurt mommy pretty bad and I'm really sorry for it. I feel bad, I feel horrible, but I want to spend the rest of my life making it better. And I want you guys to support me. And when those two girls told me that, dad, whatever it takes, I want to, we want to support you and we believe in you. You know, you didn't mean to hurt my mom. And you know, I'm balling, man, I'm sitting up here and I'm balling. And that right there made me really understand how important this problem was and how important it was to, for me to move forward. And so as they got older, when they got 18, 20, 22, I sat both of them down and I talked to them. I didn't tell them everything when they were younger, but as they matured and they grew to really receive this with understanding, I told them all the details, and I told them that I wanted to be honest as their father, their spiritual leader, as their dad, I want to be honest and transparent with you. This is what I did to your mom years ago. And for the last 10, 15 years, I've been working really hard at trying to improve that, and I've been very successful in doing that. I'm not where I want to be, but I'm working on it, and I will continue to work on it for the rest of my life. And so I kind of gave them that understanding and that promise that this is what I'm trying to do. And they've been praying for me since day one. And it has made my journey so wonderful, so peaceful. And having their understanding and blessing has really, really made a huge difference. So it depends on the age and the progression of their maturity. And I had to keep an eye on that because there were times when I wanted to tell them, but I didn't feel that it was right and they weren't old enough. But as they reached their adult ages, I felt that it was time and I had to tell them. I had to let them know. I didn't want them to go into other relationships, their marriages, and always wondering what was up with that. Why didn't you tell me about it a couple years ago? Why didn't you tell me that before I got married? You know, so I wanted to make things clear.

That's good. I think about our kids and think about what kind of story do we want them to tell about us? You know, that we can fall into a lie that says we need to be a perfect dad or have it all together. That that's what our kids need, when really, our kids need to see vulnerability. They need to see how we recover from problems. They need to see how we own our mistakes. And there's an opportunity, if you've been caught in this issue, there is an opportunity with your kids that you may never have again to go before them and with integrity. Say, I've done some things that are very hurtful to your mom, but I recognize it. I'm repenting. And watch how I'm gonna make this right. I'm gonna work very hard to restore what I've broken and the ways that you're communicating there. What it means to be a man, to take ownership, to take responsibility, to protect your marriage, protect your family. I mean, you can display that much better through your honesty and your willingness to change than trying to act like, oh, it's no problem. Mom's just, she's going off the handle about something that, that over time is going to have a very, very negative impact on your kids. So don't buy into the lie that being perfect is what they need. They want to be able to tell a story of, yeah, my mom and dad had problems, but I watched my dad change and I watched how he worked on that, that that's going to be far more meaningful. So taking that step with your kids, I think is really, really important.

Sure.

And the reality is your kids know you have problems. You know what I mean? Like, I've got a two year old at home and I already know that he knows that I'm not perfect. But that idea of this is something I've said, you know, a few times on the podcast. But the idea of if I present that I'm Superman to my kids, then they're never gonna come to me with their problems. But if I'm willing to be humble and honest about what's going on in my life and my struggles, do it at an age appropriate level. I'm creating that space and that relationship where they can come to me if they struggle, you know, and that was one of the things I struggled with as a kid. I felt like my dad was Superman and I didn't know that I had that channel where I could go and talk to him. And so doing this, being honest, having conversations with them, not only is helping you and helping your family now, but just thinking about the kind of culture that you're creating, again is just so, so important.

Yes.

So we've talked about this a little bit. But, Ernie, you know, the nature of this issue is it's cloaked with a lot of shame. It's kept really secretive, and our natural reaction is to maybe moralize or minimize the situation. But in your experience, what are the negative effects of not owning our behavior and being honest about the issue?

Oh, wow. You know, reverting back to the old behaviors, going back to what you're familiar with, what you used to, because it was your covering, it was your safe place, you know, was your go to place. Because once you leave that behavior and you want to minimize what you've done, you want to say, well, it wasn't that bad. I mean, most guys go through the same thing, you know, but you Know, they got over it. So I really don't have to go through this process, you know, I mean, it's. We need to stop that. We need to stop trying to hide behind something that has been protecting you for so long. And that's the lie, the deception. The enemy is good at that. And those are his tricks of the trade. And when you continue to give him power and authority in your life, then he's going to put you back in that shell. And just like a tortoise and a turtle, you're going to go right back in there and hide and wait for the coast to clear. And you'll never face the issues that you. You have to face, because you're gonna have to face them one way or another. And it's best to just face them and deal with them. And it's better to deal with the reality of shame and guilt to get over it than. As opposed to going back in your shell and never having to face it. And no one will ever know who you are. You'll never know who you are in Christ. And, you know, it's a shame.

Just. I mean, oftentimes the best, the best and biggest changes in our life, the front door to that is, is a painful experience that just seems to be the reality in life. And I mean, if you look at scripture, suffering is how we grow. It's one of the primary tools God uses. And I'm not trying to even minimize the situation because if this is a situation you're in, it's extremely painful and extremely difficult. But understanding that there is hope in it, that God can and will use the situation to change you and to heal you if you're willing to lean into that. You know, one of the tensions of, you know, the idea that the Holy Spirit is the one who's working, but we have to partner with, like, that's also true here. You have to be willing to put in the work, but take advantage of the opportunity. It may look like a huge hurdle that's in your way, but in reality, it could be a huge open door to change into healing.

Most definitely.

So, Ernie, we're going to keep going here. Only a couple more questions. When we are caught or explaining exposed, a natural reaction might be to keep this quiet, to just deal with it maybe as a couple. And I know that, you know, right now in this episode, we're talking a lot about if the guy, if the husband is the addict. But this can go both ways, this can go either way. And so understanding as a couple that sometimes you want to either do it just as a couple or maybe with a counselor, but just again, you guys experience. What role does a community have? How can our church or our friends be a part of really the support system and the movement forward in this situation?

Well, in Jackie and our situation, we were very fortunate to be a part of a marriage ministry. Who the leaders were my best friends, sister and brother, sister and husband. And we were connected with them and they knew what was going on with us. And they are the ones who are responsible for everything that we do because they took us in. They knew about our problems. They knew about my problem even before Jackie and I got married because her brother was my best friend. So we hung out a lot. But they've always known that there was a problem with me. And when we got married and she saw that the things that were happening, they said, you know what, give us an opportunity to speak into you guys, live to help you and do what we can to really help solidify this marriage. Because we love you guys and we care and that's the kind of community that we surrounded ourselves with. And we talked to a couple pastors and you know, they offered the advice, but community, people that we surrounded ourselves with, couples that had a heart for couples, for understanding marriage, husband and wife relationships, covenant marriage. These were the two people that really spoke into our lives and helped us along the way. And we are very indebted to them and thankful for them, mentoring us, guiding us and leading us. And I can't tell you how much community has been. Been a meaning to us. I mean, it's critical. It's critical. You know, Ted Roberts says if your mess happened in the community, it has to heal in the community. So we need to really get back into community and face those that we've hurt and show them through our actions, through our change of behaviors, our renewing of minds, transformation of hearts, that we're sorry and we want to make amends, but we want to make amends through our behaviors, through our lives and living it, showing them that we really mean business and we want to change for the better. So community is absolutely important.

Yeah, yeah, we got into this dark cave alone. We're not going to get out of it the same way. And I remember when my counselor told me that I had to join a group and I was like, ah, can't I just tell you? And we kind of work this out between the two of us and move on and. And he said, no, if you don't make this group a top shelf priority, you probably won't. Change. And as I look back now, it's so obvious why that had I only told the counselor, there would have still been so much self protection, such a fear of rejection with other men or that need to perform for love. And in a group, when I got real and shared all my stuff and heard others doing the same and found out that I was still accepted, that I was still loved, that I had a place of belonging, I share that. That's probably where I first experienced truly the love of God and understood it because I was fully known. And until we're fully known by our peers and able to experience acceptance and love from them, it's hard for us to actually know what real love is. And so that's where community, in my story and in so many others, is just a crucial, crucial part of the healing. If we don't share in community, we're probably not going to heal.

Yeah, absolutely.

One of the things too, and this is something that the community of friends that I have right now in our church and really just in our lives, is we're realizing that when we're able to share and to be honest about this stuff and welcome people in, what it does is it opens the door for them to share too. I think that there's this kind of subtle, behind the scenes, almost competition sometimes that happens. And I don't think we really know about it, but between couples in a community, it's like, oh, well, we seem like we're doing better than that couple, or maybe we're not doing as good as this. There's always this, like, comparison game. And I think that when you're able to just be honest and own stuff like this, it gets rid of that game. Like the shame goes all the way down. And everyone's like, you're messed up. Guess what? Me too. And we just share about what's going on. And I'm not saying that to be light hearted about this topic, and I'm not saying that you should share this topic or this situation with everyone, but understanding that if you invite other people into the healing process, you're going to see that it helps a lot of other people, not just yourself in your own relationships.

Yes, it does.

Well, Ernie, we appreciate so much the way that you're willing to share your story, to help other people, to be on the podcast and just talk openly about what God has done in your lives through a difficult situation. So now, as a regional group advisor, I know you get a chance to help many men in this area and that are maybe dealing with this, this Exact situation of getting caught and exposed and what to do about it. So as you think about some final encouragement, what would you want to say to someone who's listening today and find themselves in this situation? How would you encourage them?

Well, you know, Nick, first and foremost, I would tell them, you know, two of my favorite words since I've been in recovery, and that's honesty and transparency. And I learned more about that when I became part of a pure desire group than I did in any other group I've ever belonged to. Honesty and transparency goes a long ways in life, and it's part of your recovery. You can't do recovery without those two characteristics. They become your life. They become who you are. Honesty and transparency. It's heart, spirit, mind, body. It's everything. And when you learn to be truthful, not only with yourself and with others, especially with God, you, You, that transformation takes place. You see a part of life and a part of yourself that you never thought would ever happen. You know, for me, I used to lie a lot. But when I started being honest and truthful and transparent, and I'd say, man, I don't have to lie about that, you know, man, I can tell the truth and not be condemned or anybody say anything about questioning my. My opinions. Be honest, be open. Freedom, purity, wholeness. Go after those things. That's what's important. There's no success or security in the false identity that the enemy is trying to give you. Come forward, seek God with all your heart, all your mind. Get connected to a pure desire group. Learn how to be a man. Learn to know who you are in Christ and walk in that, live in that. Because there's so much freedom, so much freedom in that. Yeah. So I would strongly encourage men and women.

Absolutely. Yeah. I think for me, humility is just the theme. You know, I kind of think through this, through this episode, and not only here's what I'm saying, this is what I'm getting at, okay? Humility. Regardless of how the situation goes, humility will always be your best approach, regardless of if it ends in a divorce or if it ends with a broken family or it ends with a season of really, really difficult times before it gets better. To just know that humility is going to help and is going to be the best way to move forward. That's. Our friend Rodney Wright always says that humility is the best way forward. And I really think that that's true. That even if you don't understand the hurt and the pain that you've caused people, but you're approaching this situation with humility, it's still going to minister to people. It's still going to help those who are around you. And look, I've never regretted being humble. The very few times that I feel like I actually did it. Well, I have not regretted it. I understand how helpful it is for me moving forward. And I've seen fruit from being humble. So to understand that you're not laying over and letting people run over you, but humility is actually doing good for your own soul. That's just my encouragement.

Absolutely.

Yeah. That's awesome. And I think my final encouragement would be to use this. You know, the temptation will be to get it over with, to just try to make her happy, to get him off your back, to move on, you know, put in a few guardrails and think we're going to be okay. But if that's all you do, you know, just have the big tearful confession and change a couple of things, you're probably going to be back here. And if there's anything more painful than being caught, it's being caught again or having to confess again. And as someone that confessed, you know, as someone that confessed over and over to my wife for 10 years, that is not what you want to keep doing. And every time my focus was more on just, you know, fixing it, fixing the pain, but not really using it to the full extent. And so that's my encouragement is if you've been caught or if you've confessed, if it's being exposed, use it, go all in, do whatever it. I mean, get in a group, get in counseling and it will be worth it. That's what I can tell you. Like, you'll look back and say, I am so glad I didn't let that behavior go on in my life one day longer. We did everything to make a transition because there's again, there's probably a voice in your head right now saying, oh, your story's different, it's not that bad. You'll never do it again. And those simply put, our lies of minimization and rationalization. And if you listen to him, you'll be here again. And I don't want you to have to go through this pain again. So use it. Let God redeem it, let it become part of your story. And I think you'll just, you'll see this as one of the greatest things God ever did.

Whatever it takes.

That's right.

Ernie, brother, thank you so much for what you do, your willingness to share your story, you have expertise in this area because you lived it and have found healing and restoration and healthy relationships and. And look, this is such an awful situation. It's so easy to feel hopeless and alone in it. We hope that hearing some of Ernie's story and his experience helped bring some hope for you and your situation. If you want to hear Jackie and Ernie tell their story and how they got whole, go back and listen to episode 47. They share their story, really how they found restoration, got healing in their marriage and they talked about how they are helping men and women today with the same issues.

So.

So if you are in this situation, if you want help or in need of help, you can contact us directly. 503-489-0230. The best way to heal from these situations, look, it's to reach out and to ask for help. We can help you. Our group structure is created to put people together who shared experiences and help them walk the roadmap of healing. So don't do this alone. Ernie, thanks so much, man. Appreciate your time.

Thanks for. Thanks for having me. It's nice seeing you guys.

Great job, Ernie. Way to go, man. Yeah.

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