095 - Unraveled: Managing Love, Sex, & Relationships

Welcome to the Pure Desire Podcast where we partner with you to bring hope and freedom on your journey to purity.

Have you ever wondered why relationships are so hard? Why you've never had the relationship you've always dreamed about? Whether we know it or not, our negative sexual experiences and mistakes are holding us hostage and keeping us stuck in unhealthy relationship patterns. Enter Unraveled, Pure Desire's newest women's resource. Through personal stories, strategic tools, weekly self care lessons, and so much more, Unraveled will become your guide to managing love, sex and relationships. Visit PureDesire.org unravel to pre order and start to see how God wants to transform your relationships and redeem your story.

Hey there.

I'm your host, Trevor Windsor. And we're so thankful you're taking time out of your day to hang out with us. I'm here with my co host as always, Nick Stumbo.

Question, what kind of bear is best? False Black bears.

Great, great TV show.

Beets Bears Bears Beats Battlestar Galactica.

I'm sorry I jumped in. I felt like your intro was done, but it wasn't the whole quote.

Michael Hall.

Yeah, that's right. So for any of you uneducated listeners out there, that is from the Office, I think specifically season three. And it is an episode. It's episode where Jim impersonates Dwight. And I'm pretty sure he says impersonation is the highest form of flattery. Jim. And it's just an amazing. I'm tempted to put the clip, the YouTube clip in the show notes for.

This episode just so people have a frame of reference. Yeah, some people are probably really scratching their head about that intro.

Right. And other people are so happy and are now lifelong listeners just because we go to the office. So I mean, eventually I'd love to get to a point where we talk about Office episodes on this podcast 24 7. But that's not why you're listening. Today we're joined by two of our regulars on the podcast, Heather Kolb and Ashley Jamison. Heather's our content manager and Ashley is our international groups coordinator for women's groups. Both of these ladies are speakers and two of our favorite people for the most part. Welcome, Heather and Ashley.

Thanks, Trevor. Happy to be here.

Hi.

We are still working on Ashley's introductions today. We're actually talking about something we're really, really excited about. We're talking about our new women's resource called Managing Love, Sex and Relationships. We just so happen to be joined by two of the primary contributors to this new resource, Heather And Ashley, they're gonna help us talk through what this resource is, who it's for, how it helps, and. And really, we are pumped to release this new resource.

Yeah, very excited. Because we know from research that a full 25 or 30% of women in the church have issues with sexual dependency, unwanted sexual behavior, all forms of sexual acting out that they don't really know how to talk about. And there's very, very few resources in the church. And so I'm excited as well, because I think this really is one of the very best, if not the best, resource for women out there as they want to have a small group experience. So we're going to hear all about it today.

You heard it here first. The greatest resource ever written.

I may be a touch biased. Okay.

In the world.

Yeah, that's right. That's right. But it's nice when your boss says that, so we're happy. Okay, so let's just get going. We mentioned in the intro that it's for women, that unravels for women. But who specifically is this resource for? And who would benefit from going through this workbook?

Okay, so any woman would benefit from going through this book. And it doesn't matter if she's married or single. It does. That doesn't matter. But basically, any woman who has had any kind of struggle in love, sex, relationships, so that could look like multiple failed relationships. I hear women say I just keep ending up with the same guy over and over. That would be somebody that could go through, obviously, struggles with pornography, struggles with masturbation, even if it doesn't include pornography. Fantasy, you know, that just constant daydreaming about my life would be better if I just had a boyfriend, a husband. So really anything in that realm, big or little, a woman could go through this resource.

And we really tried to just capture a broad audience with women and deal specifically with things that are unique to women who struggle. But just women in general who want to develop healthier relationships or understand how to communicate better or, you know, some of these things that we take for granted. But when relationships go sideways, that's when we recognize that, okay, something's wrong here.

And also, like I was thinking too, sometimes women who don't like to have sex with their spouse or who have issues with intimacy, maybe they're like abstinent or they just hate it or have trauma around it. I guess we call it sexual anorexia. They don't have the ability to connect. Why that happens. And so the resource will also help a woman like that who maybe has Some past issues or trauma, or maybe she's not even sure what's causing it. But her sexual life with her husband is not healthy because it's not happening or it's not something that's pleasant for her.

Yeah, and everything you guys just talked about is so important because there really aren't places women get this kind of input in their lives. I mean, probably their sex ed class when they were going through school. There's things they hear from friends or on media, television. But really this area and a phrase we're using more and more pure desire is this idea of sexual discipleship, this idea of someone mentoring or training me in my sexuality. How to think, how to view myself, how to view relationships, how to interact with the world around me. There's just not places women can go. And so I think what we're seeking to create is a safe place for women to have those conversations and know they're not alone. They're not the only one. That this is part of what it means to be a woman, to be a human being. And just like we try to do with men and our men's resources to make those safe places where it's like, I get to process my whole story and don't have to hide any of it. So Unraveled is an interesting name for women's resource. I love its uniqueness. But talk a little bit about why that name.

So when you commonly think of the word unravel, we think of untwisting or unwinding something that has been snarled or knotted up. But another definition of unraveled means to investigate or explain something complicated or puzzling. And really, for women who struggle with sexually compulsive or addictive behaviors, we don't understand why, and we can't seem to make relationships work. We seem to leave this wake of destruction behind us and still end up with this huge question of why do we keep doing this? And really, when you look at Unraveled in our intent behind writing this resource, it was really to open this up and say, let's investigate and make sense of how all the pieces of our lives, so our family of origin or past pain and trauma, negative sexual experiences. Really, how do all of these things together help explain or reveal why we do what we do? And really, I think the title is simply saying that as women, let's learn what it would look like to have healthy control in these three major areas of our life. Love, sex, and relationships.

Because it's areas that every woman, every person has, right? Everyone has love in Their life. And whether you've been sexually active or not, you're a sexual being. So sex is a part of even your DNA. And then relationships, obviously we have relationships. So I love that. How neutral, really. It almost creates it to be that this can apply to any life. Obviously, it's a Pure Desire resource. Right. It's got one specific bent, but this really what I'm getting. And just looking through the resource, I'm really excited that women are going to understand that it really is something that anybody can go through. Whether you've been a betrayed spouse or whether you're struggling yourself with an addiction, this is something that everybody can get because all of those things are involved in each of our lives.

Kind of reminds me of Nick's demonstration in the Pure Desire conference with the coke bottle. Just being able to undo it a little bit at a time. And kind of same concept is just unravel a little bit at a time, and we have it laid out in an order that's manageable and will hopefully get to the bottom of what's causing these issues. But, you know, something like unleash the pressure, unscrew the cap. You know, that's not really, like, the greatest title. So unravel just a little bit more. I guess Unscrew might.

Okay, well, I like Unraveled.

Yeah. Yeah, Unraveled. Great. Great pick, guys. That's amazing.

I love the idea of unraveling a mystery, because I do think when it comes to our sexuality or really any problematic behavior, we can have a simplistic solution. Well, just do this and it'll change or stop doing that and you'll be fine. Like, it's complex. Our sexuality is complex. And it makes me think about a C.S. lewis quote where he talks about that if you've got a math equation and you get the wrong outcome, you have to go all the way back and find out where did it begin and how to unravel all those little strands. Because the end result can't just be changed. You have to see all the places you went wrong. And I think that's what Unraveled will help people do.

Yeah, but you don't have to do any math in the resources we post.

Hold there be no math.

Everyone take a deep dive.

Okay, so what makes this resource and this group experience going through Unraveled so unique? Like, why give some reasons why women should go through Unraveled?

Well, we intentionally created Unraveled with a holistic approach to healing, so not simply focused on our sexual behaviors, but really in the ways that Women uniquely struggle so physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually, and sexually. Because if we simply focused on our sexual behaviors, we would miss something. Because when we look at our core beliefs or the root cause of why we do what we do, a lot of times it has nothing to do with sex. Our sexual behaviors are simply a symptom of something that's much deeper, some core belief that really has been buried in our life and in our brain and in our behavior, and it's really uncovering some of those aspects.

Yeah. And, you know, we get the opportunity to speak to thousands of women between the calls that we're making during the day and the conferences and having women's breakouts. And one thing that we hear, or I hear as the group coordinator, is what makes this different than Eight Pillars? Is it a replacement? Is it the same thing with a new look? And it really is, really came out of what we've been learning since Eight Pillars originally came out. And being able to talk to all of these women is that it's not always easy to identify that you're a love or sex addict, especially if pornography or sex is not your issue. Obviously, that's more clear and obvious for women to identify with. But what we're finding is that a lot of women struggle with other things like fantasy or masturbation, or it could be even somebody who's only ever had sex with just their husband. And so they're not going to identify as being a sex addict when the only person they've ever slept with is their husband, but yet they're replaying their romance novel in their brain during sex with their husband in order to enjoy it. And so we found that there's so many more issues that women commonly struggle with and that probably the number of women who struggle sexually would be way higher if we included all of that stuff that's keeping them from true intimacy with their spouse or just from being a healthy sexual single. And so our book, this new resource, will give more examples and questions and stories that can help the women see themselves in it and be able to apply those tools to whatever their struggle is. Yeah, so a little bit more of the gray area in there instead of just black and white.

As I read through Unraveled, what I really appreciate is that it's built on the same foundation as Eight Pillars. It's the same principles. A lot of those themes and ideas that have made pure desire, Pure desire for two and a half decades are in there, and they're what it's built on. But it's really a fresh New perspective because it was written by a team of our women and. And significantly impacted by women who have lived the story. And as you were saying, Ashley, what we've learned through the years, so we do intend and hope in the church, it becomes for women, like what the Conqueror series and Seven Pillars is for men, that you say, if you have any issues in this area, this group is for you. It's going to be good. And we've joked about seven Pillars. If you can use pornography as an excuse to get into the group, it will be good for you. And I think I've unraveled the same way that for women that struggle, even if they feel like, well, my struggle is not very big compared to others, but I've just got stuff I've never really figured out. It's unaddressed then unraveled for you. It's the female equivalent. And we think it'll open the doors for healing for so many women that maybe felt like, well, I'm not a sex addict, so I don't need a group. Right. But they can come and unravel and see, oh, I've got a lot more going on there than I've ever realized.

Yeah. And just understanding that we all have that brokenness that we carry around, and that's what I love about our resources, is we dig into family of origin, we dig into trauma, all of that. But I think that the reason why I think any woman can go through this is because, again, going back to the idea that if you have any brokenness in your life, it's gonna affect all areas. And so your brokenness doesn't just stay to one dynamic or one area of your life where if I'm. If I have some sexual brokenness in my past doesn't just stay in my sexual relationship, that will play out in my platonic relationships, that'll play out in my parenting, that'll play out in how I do my work in my job. And so it really does catch everybody in the sense, because brokenness is brokenness. And this resource is gonna help us unpack that and find what's at the center.

Yeah. So for some of our listeners, they may not have heard some of these terms or ideas like love addiction and sex addiction. So unpack for us a little bit. What would be the difference between those two, Between a love addiction or someone that has more of a sex addiction.

Yeah. So love addiction would be if a woman is seeking her validation through somebody else. And so it can look the same when you look at a woman who has maybe Some struggles. And so even for me specifically, you can look like a sex addict because you're. You're sleeping around with several different men. But really what it is is that you're wanting to feel loved. You're wanting to feel accepted, desired, pursued. And so that would be more of a love addiction. If you're addicted to the actual act of sex or the chemicals released, you know, through masturbation, then it would be. That would be a sex addict. And so you can't just look at the surface. I mean, you can have somebody who's sleeping with several men who's really a love addict, or you can have somebody who's a virgin, who's a sex addict because they're struggling with masturbation and needing that, you know, in order to cope. And so the resource will really help the women be able to divide and get down to, like, what is driving their issues, so that then they're able to put in some tools and some practices that will help them live healthier in that area.

And it really does put some new tools in place to help women identify just simple things in their behaviors, things that they haven't ever recognized as, oh, this is why I do this because I want to feel loved and accepted, or I do this because I need validation, or because every time I do something wrong, I hear my mother saying, you'll never do this or you'll never. You know what I mean? And it's weird how we tend to connect all of these things to our perception of love and our perception of sex and really how that plays out, like you said, Trevor, in our relationships.

Heather, a follow up to that. It seems like we're hearing more and more about sex addiction in our culture, but that concept of love addiction, I'm not hearing as much. I know you do a ton of research and studying. What are you seeing as it comes to this culture's awareness of love addiction and how that plays out for people?

Well, and I think that we're just starting to see more of an idea that love addiction is not just about women, that men can struggle with love addiction. And I think with that one specifically, there's a strong codependent component to it where we tend to think that, okay, I have to be enmeshed with this other person or this other person, this one significant person in my life is going to meet all of my needs and validate me in this way that I've never felt anywhere else. And I think that that for a lot of women, fuels their. Their fantasy of if I just Give this person all of me, everything sexually, physically, emotionally, financially, everything, that they will love and accept me. And really they end up alone and disappointed in ways they never even imagined.

And I've talked about it on previous episodes that that was my thing. It was a love addiction that turned into what would manifest as potentially a sexual addiction or manifest as a porn addiction, which it did. But it all came back to am I loved? Am I accepted? Am I embraced by these people? And am I enough for these people? And so that took years for me to figure that out. But it is something that it doesn't obey gender lines. It can cross into any.

Well, and I really like that we're addressing them together because there's a lot of overlap. You know, just as you shared in your story, Trevor, that we might be battling with pornography or, you know, a lot of sexual experiences, but underneath of it is a desire for love and belonging and connection. And so it's not necessarily a clean either or, but it's to understand the full dynamic of why do I do what I don't want to do? And I think that's something women will really discover in this group.

Yeah. So we know at Pure Desire, just based through research, tons and tons of conversations, that sex, porn and love addiction is an issue that anybody can struggle with. Again, doesn't obey gender lines. So why is this so much harder to identify or recognize among women?

Well, I think that for a lot of years, even the word addict tends to make women push back and say, well, I'm not an addict. And so when we can break that apart and say, okay, well, you're not an addict, but do you seem to have issues with relationships? With every relationship, not just with men, but with every relationship. And do you end up doing things that compromise your moral beliefs? Or do you, you know, can you not set any boundaries in relationship? Healthy boundaries? And, you know, just looking at the patterns in behavior is really one of the ways that women can say or even self identify that. Oh, yeah, well, I do that. You know, I see these patterns in my behavior, and I never thought of it as being addictive or compulsive behaviors. But yet when you put this, when you paint this picture, it makes a lot more sense to women.

Yeah. And I talk to women, too. I've led some groups with women who really have had found themselves in some precarious situations sexually and acting out in really dangerous ways. And when we would go through and they would score high on different love addiction things, it was like, well, that doesn't make sense. I just like sex, and I'm more like a guy. And that's something I have heard since junior high from girls that will be flirtatious or promiscuous or sexual. It says, well, I just like sex. And it's part of our culture, I think, portrays women that if you're, you know, sexual, then you're like, you know, cool, and you're just acting out your sexuality in the way that you should, because it should be free and you should be able to do what you want with it. And so I think that hinders women from really identifying where their struggles are coming from. When our society says one thing about sexuality but it doesn't work, you know, that's kind of like the telltale sign is when you're in the situation over and over and over and it's not working for you, then something's off.

Yeah, I know. You know, as I'm thinking through this, really thinking about how sex was talked about in the church growing up, and I think that, you know, just to be clear, this is a resource that anybody, whether you're religious or not, can go through. But this is definitely catered toward someone who knows that the Holy Spirit and that God's work in their life is also a partnering aspect to this, a huge piece of this. But the idea of being taught that you basically have to put a lid on your sexuality. And I think that this is one of the things that a lot of people struggle to identify is that being taught, I guess maybe a wrong perspective or wrong theology, if you will, on sex can actually manifest as brokenness, that you have this expectation that sex is only for marriage, and then you get to marriage and it's not what you expected, and it's more difficult to get engaged into and it's more difficult to manage. But I think that even that can manifest into unhealth in your marriage and really an improper perspective when it comes to sex. And so again, I think this is something that everybody has to figure out is really what is the role of sex? And where is. Where's my past? Where's what maybe I assume is right, but really don't have a way to back it up. I'm not sure if this is accurate or not. You know, at what point can those things change? And it really is when you come to face to face with the truth that we all have brokenness and we all have these wrong perspectives that we bring into marriage. And again, I know I'm just beating up this point, but the point is that anybody and everybody should go through a resource like this. And obviously we suggest you go through this one because there are those pieces to your past that maybe don't look like brokenness, but still very much affect love, sex, and relationships in your life.

Yeah. So I was just going to say, so men, if you go through this resource, just make sure your group is all men. I think we're going to have some men listening to this podcast, being like, yeah, yeah, right.

That's why we have seven pillars of freedom.

Right, right. We'll call the men's one unscrewed, like we talked about.

So we've talked a little bit about this topic of pornography. We've mentioned it in a couple, our answers. But let's dive into that specifically, because I think for a lot of women, this can feel unique. It's viewed as a man's problem. Men are visual, women are relational, so, oh, love and relationships, yeah, that's for women. But for some of our female listeners, maybe their primary issue is pornography and the unique shame or isolation they feel or a sense of I'm different, unique might really be a part of their story. So let's just talk real specifically. Is this resource for them? If someone's primary struggle is pornography, will this help them?

Oh, yes, absolutely. All of our tools, you know, some of the core tools from our. That are in all of our other peer desire resources and then our new tools, they're all going to be things that the women can apply to their specific struggle. And so whether your struggle is flirting or pornography or masturbation, you should be able to create that resource or that tool or that plan according to whatever it is your struggle is. And, and really, you know, you know, as we say, you know, sex addiction is not about sex. That's the same idea with this resource, is that we're going to be looking into why we do what we do. And your. The way you cope may just be different from another woman in the group. It could be porn, it could be flirting, it could be affairs. It's just going to be different. But we're still going to have all of those resources that point them to the why and where is it coming from, as well as customized tools that can help them walk out sobriety and establish plans to maintain sobriety.

Well, and we really tried with this resource to make it culturally relevant. And so women who use pornography or seek out pornography is something that is growing in our community and in the church, and we can't turn a blind eye to that in the same way that that women struggle with same sex attraction that women have issues with, you know, abortion because of their addictive behaviors. And so we've really tried in this resource to capture everything that women would, you know, could experience in this. And because women, you're not alone. I mean, there's a lot of us who struggle and who need a safe place where we can talk about these things, especially in the church.

Yeah. And that's one of the things I just love about what we do at Pure desire that we help people see your behaviors, the tip of the iceberg. And yeah, you need some guardrails or boundaries around behaviors and physical things, but if that's all you focus on, you're not going to get very far. And when we look deeper, we find there's so much we have in common. And it's a bit like an illustration of fruit trees that one person might say, well, I have apples in my life, so I'm not like the pear tree. But they both have leaves and branches and bark and root systems and require similar amounts of sunlight and food. Their similarities far outweigh the unique differences. And I think of for women who struggle with pornography, they have that same case. They may feel different because of the outcome, but they have so much more in common than they realize. And I think in a group they'll discover that like, oh, some of my behaviors are different, but the lies I believe, the stuff that happened in my past, it's common, it's not unique. And I think that'd be a huge encouragement to them.

So we've talked about this a little bit already and I'm just curious if you guys can give some examples of what impact does our experience with or really our perceptions of love and sex have on all of our relationships?

And this is such an interesting question because it really starts when we're young, when we are quite young and we learn how to be in relationship with our primary caregivers. In fact, that becomes the foundation from which all of our relationships almost for the rest of our life are formed and so forth. People who were raised in a healthy environment where they, you know, formed a secure attachment, it really in. In practically and in adult relationships it means that they can, you know, they trust relationship, they can be vulnerable, they're not threatened by the relationship. And yet we have so many people who struggle with addictive behaviors that that wasn't their experience, that they grew up in an environment where it wasn't safe. And so for them to engage in relationship, it isn't. They hesitate, they don't jump. All in they fear that if I engage in relationship with somebody, then I'm going to get hurt. And so they end up approaching relationship almost guarded. And so when we have that perspective, there's no way that it doesn't spill or bleed over into our sexuality. And then, of course, our sense of sex and how that plays out in all of our relationships.

Good. Just even, like, I mean, going through all of the other pure desire resources and then writing this one and all the conversations we have, you know, around this resource and creating it. Some of the things I've realized about myself is that the reason why I struggle with showing affection or saying I love you, or is because I didn't have that growing up. I wasn't. So it feels uncomfortable to me. And so talking about sex is not uncomfortable to me because I did that all the time as a child. But. But showing affection and saying I love you can be hard for me because my family didn't do that. We didn't kiss each other, we didn't say I love you, we didn't hug each other. And so that feels terrifying to me or, or. Or fear of, like, rejection or even just emotional withdrawal, that cold shoulder thing. And so I don't really fear that John's going to leave me, but I fear if I do something wrong, he will emotionally withdraw and. And be quiet because that's what I experienced in my house. And so I had that mentality of like, if my relationship is okay, then I'm okay. If my relationship's off, then my whole world is off and I can't function. And that's what these tools have helped me get through. And now it almost just feels like these big chains have been cut off where I'm not attached to somebody else's behavior in order for me to be okay.

Yeah. Again, what I hear you saying, Ashley, is it's a really holistic approach to healing, and I just love that. So let's talk specifically about the group and the workbook. If a group is going through it, what can women expect to gain and get out of being in an unraveled group?

Well, as we've talked about this, it's interesting how we try, as women especially, we try so hard to contain the chaos, and yet we fail to recognize how everything that's happening in our environment is either going to pull us away from relationship or push us toward relationship. And so even when you think about, you know, the stress at work and the laundry piling up and the kids are arguing and you have relationship tension, and then you act out and you think, oh my gosh, where'd that come from? Really, what we tried to do with Unraveled is to say, let's look at this, let's go through this piece by piece, and let's become aware of how it is that those things that seem so insignificant at the time, how they really are, the things that are creating this unit, uncontrollable stress in our lives that push us toward acting out or push us toward unhealthy behaviors. And it's really so in a group in that safe community, they're going to look at some of those things like self care. I mean, that's one of the things that women who struggle, man, we neglect ourselves like nobody's business because of course our attention is always focused on the other person or on the relationship. And so we neglect ourselves or things like how do we communicate our needs in a healthy way? That seems reasonable, but yet we've never been able to do that in past relationships. But we want to try and put some of those strategies in place so that we can really figure out what does this look like to live out or to walk out, this healthy behavior and healthy sexuality in our lives every day.

And I don't, I don't know that serenity prayer. I think a lot of 12 step groups use it or whatever, but it sounds cliche, but it's. It's so much of what that prayer is about that I think women can live in this whirlwind of just feeling like their life can be out of control or that they have to manage everything or they're the only ones who can do anything. And it's just this constant state of chaos and anxiety. And I love that our resource will help cut through all that and figure out in some areas, life doesn't just happen to you, but you have all of this healthy control and you have the power to change so much of what's going on around you. And then there are areas where maybe you're taking control or not trusting God with it, and it's really not your area to do that. And so just being able to get through all of that and figure out what needs to be forgiven, what needs to be something that I just trust God with, what needs to be something where I need to take action on and not act like the victim anymore. That life just happens to me all the time. And so just being able to identify those areas and then put in things where they can start practicing that.

Yeah. And one of the exciting things, and you mentioned it, Heather, the self Care piece. And this illustration is just coming to me now, so forgive me if it doesn't work, but I think of when you get something from ikea, everybody knows ikea, I hate ikea, but they make great stuff. So you get the directions on how to put stuff together. But at the beginning of it, you also, at the beginning of that manual, you also have a list of all the pieces that go to it. And I feel like if you go through life trying to manage love, sex and relationships, and you're trying to figure it out, but you don't know all of the pieces that affect that or that come in your prepackaged kit, if you will, then you're not gonna know how to put it together. You're not gonna know how to put life together. You guys are nodding. So I feel like this is landing good. But I think that that's just the thing. Like if you, you don't realize that if you don't take care of yourself physically and how that messes up your brain and how that then makes you irritated, and then when you get irritated, you start to treat people poorly and then that makes you feel bad and then you act out. If you don't pay attention to everything that's contributing to it, then you're not going to be able to manage these things in a healthy way. And so that's really the most exciting piece of this to me, of this new resource, is it's giving you all of the pieces that are included and that affect it and then allow you to create a game plan of health and how to manage these.

Well, yeah, I'm feeling a little triggered because I've had to put way too many IKEA furniture pieces together. I think if there's a purgatory, it involves building IKEA furniture.

I'm with you. I'm with you.

But no, it is a great illustration. And I think what we're trying to say is it's far more than just here's some tips, here's some tools that it really is going to lead to transformation. It's going to lead to a holistic life, it's going to lead to change and freedom. Because all these tools are meant to work together and because of the depth of the group and the longevity, it's a 9, 10 month group experience at a minimum. And really going to have the time to go deep into your story and trust other women and hear their story, that that creates a real transformation of life. And so the end product, you know, with your IKEA illustration is something that really is much, much more than all the pieces. It's a collective thing that is. Is better and he's useful. And I think that's what we want to look at our life. That all these tools and tips are actually going to be part of building a life that honors the Lord and we're proud to have.

Yeah. So usually what we would encourage people to do when thinking about leading these groups or putting these groups together is to have some experience in leading these types of groups because this is a brand new resource and because no one has led an unraveled group yet. And if you have, you've ripped us off somehow because you haven't even fully released the product yet. But who can lead? Like, what qualifies you to lead an unraveled group? Who can lead these groups?

Well, first, you guys know my story that I started the groups at my church because I needed them. And so I'm such a believer in if you have the passion and the ability to get some guidance and some coaching from us, then, then you're going to be pretty good to go as long as you're not like off the wall, like psychopath. But that aside, thank you for clarifying that.

So much clarity.

Right. We do have an inventory list for that. So Heather will talk to you and determine whether you're a psychopath. But no.

So you're just shaming people right now. It's unreal.

Oh, well. Oops. No, I would say, you know, anybody who's led any of our peer desire groups, you know, so if you've done behind the Mask or Betrayal and Beyond 8 Pillars, our group guidelines are all the same for the groups and the model we use, you know, having your tools and having your workbook, it's all the same. So if you've led one of the other groups or even if you've participated and you've gained traction in your, in your healing, whether it's, you know, the sobriety side or the betrayal side, then you'd probably be pretty good to go on an unleading. If you're somebody in the church who has found healing in this area and you want to start a group for some, for people in your church, then we can just coach you on how to run the group. And then of course, if you're in your church and you're just desperate for this and there's nobody to lead it and you're it and you're the one with the issue, then we also will help, you know, we'll come alongside you and help, you know, coach you on how to use it in whatever context you have going on at your church and talking to your pastor about getting one started and how will that look and what kind of support will you have? And the cool thing is that anybody who's leading a group ever, we support you the whole time. So you have somebody the whole time you're leading. You can always call us, you can always email us, and we will talk through stuff that you don't understand, help you navigate difficult dynamics between group members or issues coming up. Because we've done it and we're here and happy to help.

And there's no math.

And there's no math.

That's awesome. Well, and the other thing too, that with this resource is we've really tried to streamline it and make it very practical and applicable to all women. And so we're hoping that even just that element makes leading the group or facilitating the group that much easier.

And as in any pure desire group, the material is the expert. So to lead, you don't have to be the expert. You can have a heart to help, a willingness to facilitate, and you can do it because the material is what will do the teaching. If you just lead women through, you'll do great. And as Ashley said and Heather said, so well, we can help you.

Yeah.

So as we wrap up today, ladies, what are some of the things that you've spent a lot of time and effort on this, you've poured your hearts into it, and I know you're very excited to have women experience it. What are you most excited about in regard to this new resource?

I think I'm most excited that I feel like when I was explaining before that it's not always black and white, that the gray area of women's issues in this arena of love, sex and relationship is so, so large and complex that I feel like we're going to just reach so many more women and they're going to have answers to some of their struggles. They didn't know where to go for help. And I see this even at the conferences after we sometimes are speaking at the peer desire conference, women will come up to me and be like, I think I have issues and what resource should I go through? And then when I showed them some of our resources, like, well, sex isn't my issue. My husband's my only person I've slept with. And so I know for sure there's a big demographic of women that will be reached that they couldn't really connect with our other resources before.

I really love, too, the way that we've taken some few core themes and woven them through the entire resource. Because sometimes when it comes to this process of healing, we get to a point or maybe we're starting and our brain isn't ready to hear what we need to hear. And so, and it's not repetitious, but it's how do these foundational elements to like we've been talking about our holistic health, how do these apply in these different arenas or how do they apply when it comes to even our relationship with our parents, or how does it apply to now our relationship with our spouse or in other relationships? And we've really been intentional about that with these themes just so that women by the time that they're working through this for a few months, that they're starting to grasp how these things are all so connected in our lives and in the way that we do relationship with others and really just giving them a platform to say, okay, this is what my life has been like. But now I have these tools and I have these connections and I have these new skills that help me to live out this in a new way in my life.

I'm excited that you guys are excited. Sound like a weird. We are obviously, as you can tell through this whole episode, super pumped to have this resource out. And we would encourage you, any woman in any season, wherever you're at in your journey, to grab a copy, but not just grab a copy of this and go through it by yourself, but to go through it with a group of other women who are working together toward unpacking and learning how to manage love, sex and relationships in a healthy way. This resource, again, is for all women, all different kinds of experiences and backgrounds. Men, if you're going to go through it, go through it with other men. But this is primarily for women. And if you want to pre order it, you can visit PureDesire.org Unraveled. Heather Ashley, thank you for writing, thank you for compiling, thank you for doing all the work, and thanks for chatting with us about it. We appreciate it.

We're super excited.

Thank you.

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