101 – Men's Q&A

Foreign.

You're listening to the Pure Desire Podcast. Your safe place to find hope, healing and freedom from sexual addiction, betrayal and relationship issues. What's up, everybody? This is your host, Trevor Windsor. This is episode 101 of the Pure Desire Podcast. We are super, super thankful you guys are checking in today. Just wanted to let you know about today's episode. We actually have content today from a recent men's Q and A that me and Nick Stumbo did in San Diego, California. We team taught on finding freedom from porn and sex addiction. And then this was the follow up Q and A. This was a really, really cool time. We really enjoyed our time down there with the church and then enjoyed this Q and A. I think there's a lot of good stuff in here, so hope you enjoy the podcast.

What we want to do now is we're going to pull out some stools here and just take a seat and we want to interact with you. We'd love to hear what kind of questions you have. If you need to move around a little bit just to get the blood flowing again, that's great. If you need to use a bathroom while we have some Q and A time, that's great. Or if we get to a point, you've got to leave. But we wanted to just take another half hour or so to answer as many questions as we can about what you've heard, or about Pure Desire or about talking to your wife or your kids or the Conqueror series. Anything is pretty much fair game at this point. So I think there's a couple of microphones out there and let's just open it up for what kind of questions do you have in this whole arena of life? I was wondering about the time duration. Is this something that is going to be like aa, where we need to go once a week for the rest of our lives?

Good question. That's a great question. So statistically it's been proven that this process is a two to five year process. And a lot of the stuff's in the Conquer series of really you're renewing your mind on a practical level, like the new man, the old self and the new self. It's a lot of replacing old habits, really rewiring your brain in some ways. But what we see is the Conqueror series right now is the full thing is 10 weeks and then an on ramp to our Seven Pillars of Freedom, which is a nine month resource. And I think you get that question a lot where it's like, do I have to be in group for the rest of my life? I can tell you right now, I'm in my third round of seven pillars now. And what I'm finding is that my desire to numb out or my desire to medicate the pain I have in my life has manifested different ways now that I'm healthy sexually. My second time through was with food. And then now I'm realizing it's with the hobbies that I have or even watching TV stuff with my phone. So I'm realizing that there's some layers to my health that I have to work through. So I think the answer is you don't have to be in group for the rest of your life. I've just found that it's beneficial for my life, at least for that two to five year process, being in it, working. And then when you get to a place where you're healthy, maybe you can take a break, maybe you lead a group, maybe you help other guys get healthy. But it really is kind of case by case, depending on where you're at as far as your health.

Yeah, I always encourage guys with this. I say commit to whatever stage you're in, commit to that stage. So right now, if you're doing nothing and you feel like I need to do this conquer series, just commit to that. Commit to those four weeks, be a part of it, enter in. And I really believe the Holy Spirit will make it clear if you need to take another step and if you feel that sense of boy, I think I need to go through seven pillars, then commit to that stage. And if beyond that he calls you to help lead or help other men, then commit to that stage. Because up front, if we think of like, oh my gosh, this is a five year commitment. I mean, I don't make five year commitments very often. Like other than maybe to my wife and to my kids, I haven't committed to anything for more than five years. But if you said, well, could you come for four weeks? Like, well, yeah, I can do that. And then I'm going to engage and I'm going to let the Holy Spirit work through that time. Because we find there are men that go through the conquest series and they go, man, this was awesome. This is what I needed. And I feel like I've got some tools now. Other men go through a year with the seven pillars, say that's what I needed. And then we have other men that become lifers. I believe I'm going to be in a group the rest of my life. Not because I'm still struggling and I'm, you know, well, I'm. Hi Nick, I'm an alcoholic, or hi Nick, I'm a sex addict. There's freedom in my life and there's change. But I feel I've been called to help other men and so I want to stay in groups for that. And it's an encouragement to my wife to know that I've got men I'm able to be totally honest with. So for me it's just become a part of my rhythm. But I've had a lot of friends go through group with me that they did a year and then they went, they felt like, man, now that I've got this freedom, I can help lead in worship or in small groups or usually God uses that freedom to propel you into something else that he's been putting in your life. So I really think it's different from every man. And that's why I say whatever stage you feel God calling you, to commit to that and then just ask him what's next. Well, thank you guys for sharing these beautiful stories. Question for both of you. What can you describe shortly because of time, obviously the, the moment of the biggest victory recently that you had, you know, fighting this addiction to sex or pornography or whatever other issues?

Yeah, very, very recent. So I, I have a two year old at home, which means that I have a lot of really good content to pull from. God has taught me a lot through being a dad. I've realized that when I get triggered, my son triggers me. And what I mean by that is sometimes the trigger for me is if someone doesn't respect me or give me the time of day. And my 2 year old does that every second of his life where I'm telling him like, buddy, stop, don't, like come here, don't stop. And I'm trying to help him, but what I'm seeing is that his reaction to me is very normal for a two year old. But I'm filtering it through the brokenness I have and the filter I've had through life. And so when I see that, it's basically him giving me the middle finger and saying, no dad, I'm not going to do what you want. And so I feel that way. And when that happens, what I realize is that that pushes me down really the slide to heading toward acting out, to looking at pornography, to looking at stuff that I shouldn't, to masturbating, that sort of stuff. And so for me I've realized that if I am quicker to identify those triggers and find out where they're at, I, and doing the preparation work for when I get home, I know my 2 year old's gonna tick me off and he's gonna be a 2 year old. And so to stop expecting him to be thinking through my filter and for me to do the work, to prepare for when those moments happen that set me up for health, for really processing it in the right way, I'd say.

A huge victory or just an aha moment early on is I felt like in my struggle that I would go along pretty well in life and then there'd be like this relapse. I'd look at pornography, like, whoops, there I went. And then I get back and life would go along. And so I just saw it like as these unexpected blips that would come along. And that's what terrified me is, is that going to happen again? But what I discovered in that first round of group is it was never like this blip. It was always a progression of choices and behaviors that were a part of a pattern I had established and that if I would identify that pattern. So for me it had a lot to do with not feeling good enough. And when I wouldn't feel good enough or I would be fearful of a project, I would tend to procrastinate. And in procrastination then I would start to waste time in entertainment or online and then I would see something triggering. And over a period of weeks, that triggering material would just keep playing on my mind until I would find myself going back to something borderline and then I'd go too far and then I'd be relapsing, so identifying that. And the cool thing is cool and scary that actually just last week, the group I'm in now, we walked through that same lesson and really talks about your pattern. And my pattern nine years later is exactly the same, meaning my tendency is the same. And what I find that's so encouraging is when I look at my pattern and I do the work in the first step or two where I can see like, oh, I'm procrastinating because I'm fearful of something. If I battle there, it's easy to be free. And I don't mean easy and like pain. I just mean the victory is possible. It's not even that big of a struggle. But when I let myself get to step three or four and stuff is starting to come, then the struggle feels really, really challenging. And that's what I'm just so encouraged by, is like seeing again that when I stay aware of what my pattern is and I do that work early to deal with those feelings of not being good enough. I don't have those blips on the radar at all.

And.

And I'm experiencing freedom. So it's been both encouraging to see that pattern is so consistent, but also scary to know, man. We're creatures of habit, and those habits don't tend to change, so we have to always stay aware of them.

I have a question.

Would you guys talk about the role.

Of dopamine in your brain in the pleasure center, and how this why some.

Of us do it to self medicate?

Yeah.

Yeah, dopamine. And if we had a member of our team that teaches on the brain, you could have gotten a great outline to this. And another pitch for The Conquer series, Dr. Ted and other experts on there do an awesome job of talking about the actual neurochemistry of your brain. And what I think so cool about it is it's how God designed our brains to work, that we're designed to gravitate towards pleasure and avoid pain. I mean, there's some basic humanality there that's like, well, that's why we've survived as humans, because we don't just seek out pain, we're actually seeking out pleasure. So dopamine is that hit of chemicals that makes us feel good and it makes us feel stable. It brings us a sense of peace. And when we experience pain, our brain looks at, well, what has made me feel good in the past. And there is no more reliable, quick deliverer of dopamine than pornography, because pornography delivers a neurochemical hit to your brain that's as powerful as any drug out there. But the danger is you carry the drug in your own brain so you don't have to go to the corner to find cocaine or heroin. You're carrying something that strong right there with you that's free and it's not illegal. And the only reason we don't think of it like cocaine or dopamine is because it's not illegal and it's not behavior altering over a long period of time. So we just think of it as no big deal. But when you realize it's that powerful of a chemical, you see, oh, what I'm really seeking out isn't the pornography. What I'm seeking out is feeling better. And that's what a group can help you see is what are the healthy ways I can experience dopamine? Because if you enjoy sports and exercise, if you go and lift weights, you get dopamine. If you spend time with really good friends and you laugh and have a fun night, you experience Dopamine, if you do your hobby that you really. So there are all kinds of ways that God in health designed us for dopamine. So the problem isn't wanting to feel good. The problem is going to a quick fix that promotes unhealth and sin, not the fact that we're drawn to the dopamine. So dopamine is a non moral thing in your brain that we do become addicted to that feeling and how quickly pornography produces it. But if we can see instead that there is a slower way that I can get the feeling, same kinds of dopamine that my brain actually appreciates more. Now the Dane or the challenge probably is that let's say it's a hobby that's producing dopamine. You don't get it all at once right away, so it doesn't feel as powerful. But the other thing is there's also not this withdrawal, which is what happens in pornography is you get this hit of dopamine, but then it goes away and you feel like you're missing something. And every time you go back to it, the dopamine hit isn't quite as high and the withdrawal is a little deeper. And so what you need is you need more of the hit. You need something newer or different. And that's why guys and gals get dragged away into kinds and forms of pornography they never dreamt they'd deal with because they're looking for that same dopamine high. And it only comes because something is more novel or more edgy or more unique, and now they feel that dopamine again. But then there's always the withdrawal. So you need more and more. And that's really welcome to crazy that your brain needs more and more to just get to the same level of feeling good. But the cool thing is when you're exercising health, the dopamine hits you get are appropriate, they're reliable, and the brain doesn't go into withdrawal, the brain just goes, oh, that felt good. And now we go back to normal and normal is okay. And then there's something else that, oh, that felt good. And then I go back to normal and normal is okay. So health is just about kind of regulating that dopamine level in your brain to what your brain can actually function with. And over the long haul brings much more joy and satisfaction.

I think what's so interesting when I first learned this, because when I first heard Dr. Ted talk about this, he said that your brain responds the same way to cocaine as it does pornography. And I just remember and I think it's really, really easy in a church setting to be like, okay, neurochemistry, science, whatever, blah, blah, blah. But one of the things that I have come to understand is that God designed our brain specifically in a way that this is the reality, that this is how our brain functions. And to understand that understanding what's going on in my brain is actually helping me spiritually because I understand what it means to be healthy, to renew my mind, to pursue him and the things that I should be pursuing. And so if any of you are kind of skeptical about it, I get it. I've been there. But what I've seen is just that God was really, really smart in the way he set up our brains. And there's a lot of really, really good things we can do with what he's given us. I have one.

Once your wife finds out, for a single guy, it's different. But if you're married, once your wife finds out about your addiction, how do you go about handling her as she goes through the process of figuring out what to do with all this?

Yeah, that's a great question. And in every marriage and relationship, the story's a little different about what they know and what they don't know. But the reality I always think about is, do you want your wife knowing and seeing you doing something about it? Or like I did for 10 years, trying to tell her I'll make it all better. I would make any promise I could to try to help her no longer be angry, but not actually work on my issue. But if a man is struggling and his wife knows, but she sees him going to group and starting to do this homework and lean in and connect with other guys, It's. It now can create this hopefulness of, oh, he's actually addressing it. So I think that's the first step, is if your wife is aware of it and it's causing relational problems, she needs to see you dealing with it, not just using your words to try to make her feel better. Because what happens over time, and what completely happened in my marriage, is she learned I can't trust his words because he'll tell me anything to try to make the problem go away. He's not actually dealing with it, though. So when we got into the counseling and the groups and we were actually dealing with it, that brought her hope. The second thing is we have group materials for women who are feeling betrayed. It's called Betrayal and Beyond. And it's really significant to get women together in a safe, confidential group for them to discover, oh, you know, what you're not alone either. Because just like Satan tries to convince us, I'm the only man who struggles with this. And all these other guys have it figured out. He's doing the same thing to the women. He's saying, if you are only good enough, if you are only pretty enough or sexy enough or skinny enough or athletic enough, your husband wouldn't struggle. There's a problem with you. And so she's sitting in isolation and shame until she's able to talk to other women who are in the same place and they begin to realize. You mean I'm not the only one that feels this way. And, I mean, you're a great. Any man would be lucky to be married to you and you feel that way. And, like, all of a sudden, in openness and authenticity, they can experience some healing as well. And the group material leads them through. How do I rebuild trust? What's my role as the wife? Because women need to learn that it's actually not healthy for them to be your accountability partner. If a wife is your accountability partner, she becomes more of a police officer or a mother role. And she doesn't need to be your mom or your police officer. She needs to be your wife. And so you need to be wholly and fully accountable to other men so that your wife is free to be your wife. And. And that's kind of a delicate process. What does that look like? Because she needs to trust that you're gonna be honest with those men. But you also need to know that just because I'm authentic with other men doesn't mean I tell her nothing that I need to recognize. If I cross certain lines, I need to tell her because it creates the pain that motivates me to change. And there's a lot in the Conquer series about how do you talk to your wife? What does disclosure look like? And it's a big motivator that if you realize, boy, my wife only knows, you know a fraction of the story. And I'm really afraid of what will happen if she finds out the rest. You need to go through the Conquer series so that you understand. How do you get healthy, and how do you learn to talk to your wife? Because your marriage does need authenticity, but doing it in the right way is really crucial.

I think, too, because we're men. We are fixers, right? So if you're in group and she's in group and you guys are working on stuff together, I think it's really easy to want to just, like, check on her. How are you doing? How's Group going, are you learning stuff? Here's what I'm learning almost this way, to kind of control or push her in the direction of health. And I think that we need to, if we're both getting healing separately, to just you focus on you and her to focus on her, that her health is not your job. Your job is your health. And so that's something that I've learned in my marriage, that trying to help my wife heal actually doesn't create health for her. What it does is just make her upset at me, which then makes it harder for me to continue being healthy. And so I'm like counteractively hurting my own self because I'm trying to control her process and her healing. And so if you get into, whether it's pure desire or another ministry or some sort of material that's helping both spouses heal, to understand that your healing is your healing and to just continue doing that, because as you get healthy, she's going to see the stuff that you're doing and the changes that you're making, and that's going to encourage her as she's getting healthy.

And we have a great book at our resource table there called Stories for Women. And I don't mean to be a walking promoter of our books. I just believe in what we have. But a quick plug. It's got 14 stories from women who walk through betrayal. And it can be very helpful for a woman in the privacy of her own bedroom to read about what other women experience. And see there's some commonalities here that what I'm feeling is predictable. And. And there's a progression of I can walk towards health. And so sometimes reading what other women have gone through can really, really help a wife or a woman start her own healing journey in a marriage or relationship. So that's back. And then we have stories for men. If you're on the front end going, well, man, what. How does this work? Just, you know, read the story of 20 guys and how they found healing and you'll see those same kind of patterns that could really encourage you as well. Question on the far side of the room.

I'm former. I'm set free. I was a porn act addict. I was introduced as a boy about 8 years old, 9 years old, to a homosexual neighbor who ultimately died of aids. And I said all that to fully agree with you guys and confirm with you. But I wonder, and this is a thought that occurs to me as I hear your stories. I praise God for them. But what are we more interested in doing here? Glorifying God or making nice, clean looking really good Christians? That's my question. My question.

Yeah.

Before you ask. Yeah, yeah.

Just to give you my story a little bit further. This has been a tremendous struggle for me most of my life. I've been a Christian for about 40 years. It was only when I came to discover that my goal was God's glory and not mine that he gave me free, that I could walk in his word just like he said to do in those same verses. So if you guys would please address that. I appreciate it.

Yeah. The way I think of it is what brings glory to God is men who honor him, men who worship him, who lift up holy hands and reverence him. And what I find both, looking back in my own story and as I hear from so many men, is it's very hard to do that if I feel trapped in my own secret sin, that I feel like the worship or the honor or the glory that I bring to God is somewhat false because I know what's really going on and I'm not dealing with it. And so I see those. Your question is not an either or, but it's a both. And that as men are set free and they understand they're being set free by the power and the work of Jesus in them, who's helping them understand his love and understand themselves in a way that they can connect with his love, they naturally begin to worship God and be open to. To help others in that journey. I would just say in our own church, what I noticed is a lot of the men that were coming into our groups were men that I would describe as the fringes. They would come to church once in a while, they'd stand in the back for worship. They were more there with a wife who seemed really committed, but they were. They didn't really seem to engage much. They didn't worship much. They didn't lead, they didn't serve. I mean, they maybe served in an area they really liked, but they were just kind of on the fringe. And they'd get in group and I would realize, oh, this is why. Because they come to church and they spend the whole time thinking if they knew what you think about and what you do, they'd want nothing to do with you here. And that shame would really keep them, I think, from living in a way that they could glorify God. And so when they'd get free, I would just watch these men who would go from sitting in the back and no offense, if you're sitting in the back today, sorry about that. But just this is my story. They'd go from being men who sat in the back to they'd be more in the front third, and they'd be raising hands in worship. And there's nothing super spiritual about raising hands in worship. But I think sometimes it is an expression of I feel free to engage with God and I'm glorifying him with my life. And I'm not perfect, but I'm experiencing freedom that I no longer feel bound up. And so I think the two go hand in hand. I just saw guys that when they got free, they were living in a way that brought God more glory because they'd honor him with their words and their time and their worship, whereas before, they just kind of felt locked up. So can God be glorified when we're stuck? Yeah, to a degree. But is he really glorified when we're able to say, I once was lost, but now I'm found and listen to what Christ has done for me. That's where we glorify God best.

So, you know, looking at Ephesians 5, talking about how marriage is the picture of the relationship between Christ and the church and really is one of the most beautiful pictures of the gospel message. I think that I know for me, sometimes I don't give Satan enough credit for how smart he is. Because if he's gonna attack the church and he's gonna attack really the movement of God's kingdom, the best way to do that is to attack marriages, and attacking marriages with tactics that aren't talked about and aren't addressed. And because I'm going to tell you right now, growing up, I was in church my entire life. I've never heard anybody from the pulpit be as honest as I'm finding people who've been through this kind of process are. And so I think, really, it's what I see. It is Satan's major weapon. It's his one thing. If I can destroy marriages, I can destroy communities. And if I can destroy communities of God's people, I can destroy the kingdom. And so for me, it's something where you're freeing. Like, for me, it freed me up, and it showed me now what it looks like to be a godly husband. Do I do it perfectly? Of course not. And I still have so many struggles in so many different areas, but this was the one area that was never talked about and I never addressed where if I'm drinking or if I'm lying or if I'm spending too much time in my hobbies, those are Things we talk about from the pulpit, those are things we talk about in the church. And it's like, okay, cool, I can work on those things. I have avenues to work on those things. But this is a really specific thing that 70%, statistically, 70% of men are struggling with in the church. And if we're not getting men to break free from this stuff, then marriages aren't going to be healthy because they're not being real, they're not being honest. And here's what's awesome. When a marriage changes, and this is something that me and my wife are really passionate about because we're both healthy and our marriage is continuing to grow in that health, what that actually manifests as is being authentic and saying, look, this is our story, this is where we're at. I can tell you that my two year old triggers me emotionally and I get really upset and that makes me wanna act out. And the reason that I say that is because I know there are other people who experience the same thing. I'm not alone in that. And so what I actually see is it frees us up to be more authentic people who follow Jesus. And really it shows me all the areas I need him more and more and allows me to address those things with my wife and in community. And so for me, I love the Lord more than I ever have. And it was because this one thing was a calloused, like just blockade in my heart that I could not get out of. It carried so much shame. And what I love about the pure desire stuff and the reason why it has changed my life is it took scripture and showed me how to apply it to my identity, to apply it to the shame that I feel, to apply it to the areas in the pockets of my life that where so much wounds and so much pain is. And it's freed me up to understand that, like, life is messy, but Jesus still loves me and I'm okay and I can do this with other people. That'd be my thoughts.

Hi, first, thanks for your ministry and I'm a big podcast fan. I noticed you guys have a podcast sometimes. Love to know some others that you recommend. But in the context of, of the small groups that are the follow on, I'll say the meat and potatoes, if you will, of ongoing life. Can you give us a picture of kind of what a small group looks like, what we would expect to attend, what it would be like for one of us to attend that, whether it's for a couple weeks or a lifetime?

Yeah, I think so. The Conquer series is the 10 weeks and the seven pillars is probably going to be more nine months. And if you can't meet every week, it could even extend to a year. And really the group structure, you show up, I'll just give you practical. You show up to group and you have done homework throughout the week and you've done some self awareness stuff throughout the week and you come back with a check in answers that you've written down to some questions. And you start that first group really by answering those questions. This is more on the seven pillars. You'd answer questions about how your week was. You have conversations, you spend time. We have a model that's the 40, 60, 20 model, which the first 40 minutes is the check in and then the 60 minutes you talk about basically the meat and potatoes of that week. You talk about the material that you've read through and the exercises that you did in the homework. And then the last 20 minutes is spent on creating a commitment to change for that week. So some sort of forward looking what's going to happen in my week? What can I change? What do I need to work on? And then setting up really phone calls and accountability for maintaining that commitment to change and commit to change is not be sexually healthy. It's go on a date with my wife this week or spend three mornings in scripture or stuff like that. And so that's the structure that you do every single week. And in that I think in church you tend to think, well, who's going to lead this? Do they have to be qualified or equipped? And I think the cool thing about this is that the actual resource ends up being the guide. You just have someone who's facilitating that time, making sure people show up, making sure they show up, making sure people are sharing and doing their homework. But you allow the resource to be the guide that really pushes you to create more self awareness and to do that hard work together.

And the thing I would add to that is that the mission of Pure Desire is to help equip and mobilize the church to run ministries for men and women. We get that. We don't want to be the center of this. We know the local church has to be the center where men and women can come to their church or another church near them and find their healing there. And so we have material that groups use, but they're not our groups, they're the church's groups. We want them to own them, oversee them, run them, and then we're there to be the coach and the friend that's like here's what you do. Here's what not to do. And so we have a whole system, what we call regional group advisors. So we have a couple of guys that live here in California that have been running Pure Desire groups at their churches for a number of years. And they're there to answer all the questions of how do we promote this? Or this came up in group, what do we do about this? And that's also why we've got the podcasts. And almost all of our groups have leaders, guides to help a leader kind of navigate. Okay, what do I do? How do I answer questions? So we hope that we're seen as we're there to be that support. Because when you're first starting, there are so many questions and we help just frame the conversation, help you understand what to do so that then you as a leader in your church, you can run with it, knowing you've got us on your side to help whenever you need it. Yeah. And then there's podcasts on all the groups. How to Lead, Conquer groups, How to Lead. The only podcast you should listen is the Pure Desire Beyond Groups.

The reason why we're joking. So me and Nick are the hosts of that podcast. We. And we go through our tools, we go through group structure, we go through different topics. So it really is something that we have come out each week. We're almost up to about 100 episodes. So there's tons of content you can, you can process through more questions. These are great, guys. These are awesome.

Did you come up with all these triggers in this program and all this stuff? I mean, I guess my, you know, going from your story saying, you know, when your fiance asked you, you know, have you ever looked at pornography and you said, well, what guy hasn't?

Yeah.

And then now your triggers are your two year old son.

Right.

I mean, is that where you learned all this stuff?

Yeah, I think what's so cool is that we do listen to that voice that says, well, all guys struggle with this and maybe the added is and all guys always will. Like we have no choice. But that's what I think is refreshing is to go through this material and see I have the ability to be free and God can help me through it. And the group material is meant to lead you through a very intentional process of identifying your own story, your own triggers. Because while there is commonality, no temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And that's another great thing about the group is you realize, man, what I struggle with is common to others. That's encouraging but there is a very individual side that you see. How does my unique family of origin, the pains that I've gone through in life, my temperament, my personality, how has that wired me for certain things to hit me in a way that maybe isn't what everyone else deals with? So for some guys, it's rejection that's a big issue. For some guys, it's feeling needed. For some guys, it's being good enough or feeling like they're still trying to get their dad's approval. There are all kinds of things that can be part of our story, and we really won't know it until we are willing to lean into it and unpack our story. So both starting with the Conqueror series and then Seven Pillars, that really is a lot of the work you do is self awareness. To see, where does this come from? And the illustration I use a lot is a tree that we can deal with the fruits of pornography and lust and masturbation and be like, okay, we've got to keep this bad fruit away. But if you don't look at the roots and where it's coming from, you'll keep getting the fruits sooner or later. So the group work is to try to take you more to those roots and ask the question, where did this come from? Where did it start in my life? What were the emotions? What were the traumas? What were the beliefs, the core false beliefs that have maybe been like elevator music in my life, that I listened to this voice that says, you'll never measure up to your dad's expectations. And maybe it's been there since I was 7 years old, but it's been there so long, I don't even realize it's there anymore. But maybe at 57, I'm still running a business to try to prove to my dad I'm good enough. And I say this. I've just heard guys tell a version of that story, and when they get to that moment, it's like, oh, my goodness, I'm still trying to win my dad's approval. And when I feel like I don't get it, I find my solace in women or pornography. And like, holy cow, I describe it as connecting the dots of your life. You probably won't learn much new about yourself, but what you'll learn is how all these things that you thought were random and disconnected, how they all connect in your story. And pornography is not the problem. Pornography is the symptom, the outcome of these other issues in our life. So I'd say, absolutely, you're going to discover these Things that you knew were there, you just didn't realize how they.

All connected, I think, and I'm not sure, Nick, if you mentioned it, but all of our stuff is based on clinical research as well, through an organization called itap, which is the world leader in sexual addiction. And so our founder went through that. Our clinicians go through that training. And really what it is, is we found out that their clinical approach is really based on a lot of biblical principles. And so it's both biblically based in the sense of every single week, everything is tied to the Lord and what he's doing in our lives, but then also a clinical structure that work together, that allow you, like, what clinically gets people free from this. So if that. I don't know if that was your question exactly, but just to make sure that's kind of the basis from where a lot of our stuff comes from. I know of someone in the family that's really suffering from this issue. The wife is really, really hurt by it, and the husband refuses to acknowledge the problem. Don't seek counseling or anything like that. My question for you is, is there a loving way we can somehow make this opportunity known to a person who's really struggling and doesn't want to accept any responsibility?

Yeah. Yeah. That's such a tough question. Because as we know, you can't make someone change if they don't want to. I think all we can do is try to present to them the reality and then hope that they'll make the right choice. And so I think it is for the family to come alongside and to talk about, you know, there's hope out there. You know, you don't have to struggle with this and maybe try to paint the reality of this could destroy your marriage. This could end your relationships. And do you want that to happen? Here's an option. Here's a ministry that could help. And in the meantime, the other thing I'd say is for that wife, the husband doesn't have to be recovering for the wife to start finding healing. And so we have a number of these betrayal and beyond groups that meet in local churches or that meet online. She could join to start to get with other women and realize, okay, here's some things I can do even if he's not changing. Here's what can help me become a healthier person. Learn to forgive. So she maybe if she's feeling it, and you can encourage her to say, hey, there's some hope for you. Here's some material, here's some groups, here's a book and she might latch onto it that we've found. Like, in my church, I'd have women who started their healing and they would. They would get the voice and the words to say to their husband to essentially say, you need to deal with this or we're not going to make it. And not in a threatening way, but like out of health, saying, I'm not going to keep putting up with this. And then he'd end up in group and at first he'd be mad at her and blah, blah, blah. But when he'd start to heal, it would really help the marriage. And then we had other times it was the husband coming first and then when he'd get honest at home, then the wife would come to group saying, I can't believe it. My husband's telling me I need help. And so it can go in both directions.

I think too, this is the way my brain works. When I know someone's struggling like that, I want to just be like, hey, pure desire. I know this stuff. Like, I know you've been struggling. Here's some things that could help you. And I know, especially as a young man, that's if you come tell me how to fix me, like, I'm a stiff army real fast. Get away from me. I don't need you. So to really. This is what I found works, is that if you are sharing from your own experience stuff that you are learning and not orchestrating and basically corralling the conversation to get to where you want it to be, but in the appropriate times, just saying, here's what I'm learning about my own sexual health or how purity is now looking in my life, those kind of authentic, real sharing your story types of things, believing that those can draw people into that I think is really undervalued in the church. Rather than talking at somebody, it's just talking to them about your experience is way more inviting, especially in this arena. So I would just maybe encourage you that as you're learning, as you're growing, as you're developing your understanding of this stuff, that you just share out of your own experience and trust that the Lord is going to use that to draw people to himself. Hi.

Most you guys know me? I'm Dan.

Hey, Dan.

Yeah, I. I became addicted to drugs, alcohol and porn when I was nine years old. I thank God that he's a God of restoration.

Yep.

It's. I'm 25 years cleaning sober.

Yes.

And then the thing that I probably could be driving a Lamborghini with the money I spent.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yep.

But the thing is, if you sit around dinner or something, you'd say, well, I'm having trouble with drinking.

Yeah.

Then that's acceptable. The people. If you say, well, had a little bit of trouble with cocaine, then people accept that. And porn is such a big problem in this country, and you can't sit around having turkey saying, yeah, I'm having trouble with porn, because then everybody wants to shun me. I had to go to group therapy a lot, and it works.

Yeah.

But the main thing is finding a group of people that you can be totally honest with and where you're not going to be judged.

Right.

The drugs and alcohol damaged a lot in me, but the pornography damaged my very soul. And it's just like, yep, I'm one that pushes everything to the max. I take it to the end. What have I done? But me, too. If anybody's just starting in it or just a lot, I mean, 50 years being addicted to porn, it's terrible.

Yeah.

And that's what we're here to do this morning, is really change a culture where it's. It's taboo. It's the unaddressed topic. In 93% of churches have nothing to help men and women struggling in this area. Only 7% of churches. And I look at that stat, and it breaks my heart because I say, well, what percent of churches would benefit from having a group? It's like, well, 100%. And so in most churches, there's no place to go. And that's. I think this is the enemy's master strategy in our day and age, because this is secretive, it's isolating, and it keeps us alone. And as you know, if the enemy can keep us isolated and alone, he can beat us. But the thing that encourages me, he can only beat us by subtraction, one at a time, keeping us isolated and alone. Our health comes in community, in groups. And when we engage in a group, we're starting to use multiplication, because a group of five men can go out and become five groups of five men, and those 25 men can go out and become 25 groups of five men. And we can exponentially defeat the enemy in community when we get in these safe groups and realize, I don't have to be isolated and alone in this anymore. And that's just what you're saying. The power of groups is not just the material, but that community of. We're in this together. And as men, we can see change and the way that can change a culture of taboo secretiveness into. It's okay to be real. And that doesn't mean everyone knows everything. That doesn't mean you need to have a parade of men on Sunday morning airing their dirty laundry. That would never be appropriate. But in a group where they know there is a place that someone can know everything and I can deal with it, that becomes really cultural changing for a church. And that's what I hope happens here in whatever churches you're from. That even if you go back to a different one that maybe you see, I'm going to come back over to this church to be a part of the group so that I can take it to my church because they're not ready yet or I'm the only one. But if you would lean into your story and find the healing, you might be the one to take it back and say, we're going to start a group here and now we're multiplying God's healing among us.

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