103 – Relapse & Recovery

Foreign.

You're listening to the Pure Desire podcast. Your safe place to find hope, healing and freedom from sexual addiction, betrayal and relationship issues. What's up people? This is your host, Trevor Windsor and you are listening to episode 103 of the Pure Desire podcast. I am here as always with my co host Nick Stumbo, who.

Can you smell what the Rock is cooking?

That's a throwback wwe, that is. Dwayne the Rock Johnson.

That's right. You know what's ironic about that is I've never actually heard him do that. I've just heard people impersonating or talking about him doing that. And so it's not one I would have picked but I had someone mentioning like some wrestler greetings I could start to pull out. So I'll space them out over the next few podcasts. But that's good, you know. Question for you, Trevor. Favorite all time wrestler, do you have one?

I do have one and it's, I'm not, I'm not really. I feel like, feel like the inner redneck, like the maybe 1% of my life that's an inner redneck. I like Stone Cold Steve Austin. That was my guy. I just, I don't know why. Just a beer drinker, you know, heavy hitter. I don't know, I just liked him.

I think our favorite wrestler like can become a byproduct of whatever era we grew up in because I, you know, I would just say Hulk Hogan because the guy that comes out tears his shirt in half.

Absolutely.

And the match of he wrestling Andre the Giant is like classic childhood for me. That scene when it comes to my mind.

That's good.

Mid-80s, you know, that's good. All the pageantry. Yeah, we digress.

Yes, we do. Well, let me use that as a professional transition. Today we wrestled with a topic that's pretty difficult. We talked about relapse.

Yeah. It can be the Andre the Giant in people's lives.

Yes, it can.

To use our analogy. Yeah. I think a valuable conversation because it is quite frankly where the rubber meets the road. It's what led a lot of us men and women to get into group. It's the thing that causes pain and that we're, we're really afraid of having happen and we want to avoid it. So I think we just need a lot of wisdom around that topic.

Yeah. So we sat down with Rich Moore, our international men's group's coordinator to talk about relapse. Enjoy the episode. Alright Rich, let's jump in. We are not talking about a fun topic per se. Today. But in recovery, the word relapse really has a few different meanings. So in recovery, when it comes to sexual addiction and what we do at pure desire, how would you define relapse for me?

In short, it's really just giving in and giving up to old behaviors and letting circumstances drive our actions or the reactions.

Yeah, that sounds like a faster scale. You pull that straight off the faster scale.

Well, I mean, that's the go to answer. I mean, when you look at relapse, if you want the short answer, that is exactly what it is. It's basically going to. Going to a place where we told ourselves we would never go before.

Yeah.

Yeah, it's definitely a term that I think it's important that we define. It does seem like it's the kind of thing we kind of feel it happening. But that's because our pattern has created a level at which we define something as being maybe shameful or wrong. And based on our family of origin or our religious beliefs growing up, or what we saw modeled in our family, we might find that the, the line we have that we call a relapse, others may not share, or in particular, like our spouse may not share. And so I think as we get involved in a group, it's one of the tools I'm sure we'll come back to in this episode is talking about our three circles, which is to define what is that place in the middle that I've committed to myself and others not to go back to because I believe for. For myself, it's, it's wrong, it's unhealthy, it's not good for me, and it, it's off limits. And that might be something beyond what we would have put in there on our own because our spouse says, no, I need it to be these things now more often than not, when someone's in a men's group, the starting point is relapses, masturbation and pornography. And those two things kind of become a starting point. But for other men who I've started group with, they'll say, well, wait, that's not wrong, is it? You know, they're trying to avoid levels beyond that of interaction with other people or paying for sex. And so it's really good though, to establish that so that it's not just based on, well, it's only a relapse. If I feel like it's a relapse, it's really asking the question, no, where do I return to a behavior that is going to cause problems in relationships in my marriage? You Name it, and then actually writing it down, because I think that's where, if it's just in our mind, we can change the rules as we go along. It's like, well, that was my rule last month, but it's been a good month, and so that doesn't count. Or this is different. Or the incredible capacity every person's brain has to talk themselves into stupid. And that's why you want to write it down and be clear to say, this is what I'm defining as the place I don't go anymore. And then you can build around the appropriate guardrails to avoid that.

And write it down when you're, like, at your clearest thinking, like, you've had a lot of sleep, maybe you and your wife are in a great place, or you and your relationships are at a great place, and write that down. For me, relapse. Because I was thinking about it, how someone might answer it. Biblically, it's like Romans 7. Doing what I don't want to do in so many ways has been the definition for me of relapse. And we'll get into it. That relapse, you know, can it change? Does it develop as you grow in recovery? And we'll get to that later. But I mean, you guys, those are just perfect answers. I got nothing else.

So one of the things we've noted along the way is that for many people, men and women, a relapse can be a part of their recovery. And that's why in the workbooks, we make it clear to say, a relapse doesn't restart your healing. It may actually be part of what you're learning along the way. And so rich to think through that. If someone does have a relapse while they're in the process of trying to work on recovery, how should they feel when that happens? And maybe not just how should they feel, but also what kind of response should they have?

They're gonna feel a wide variety of emotions. They're gonna have fear, because now they have to disclose to their wife or spouse, husband. They're gonna have the guilt, the shame. They're gonna be angry, kind of the whole mess. And what. Sometimes what happens is when they have a relapse, not only do they relapse, you know, sexually, whatever that. Whatever the relapse looks like, but usually what happens is it leads to a combination of other things that just kind of fall in, because now they're not thinking clearly. They're not, you know, they're not in the right spot. So it just becomes A bigger issue than the actual relapse itself or that.

Excuse of, well, I've already done this, so I might as well. I'm already gonna have to confess something, so why not? Totally keep digging?

Totally. For me, I just remember when I first. Because for me, my experience is different maybe than some people were when I first jumped into group. I was a group leader. And obviously we don't suggest that, but there was nothing else that really we could do at the church. And I remember that first relapse, I was embarrassed. I felt so. Like I had gone, like, from day one of recovery to a year later. I was like, good, I was getting healthy. I hadn't acted out. And then it felt like, so embarrassing, and I was so afraid. And so for me, it's easy to feel shame. And we've talked about shame a lot on the podcast and in a lot of things that we do, but it was embarrassment and then shame. And honestly, for a while, isolated, like, I had that internal struggle of, do I really want to tell my group, like, what are they gonna think of me as a leader? What are they gonna think about me in recovery? And that was just how I felt. And that was not a fun place to be.

Yeah, I'm supposed to have it all together.

I can tell them, quote, unquote. Right? Yeah.

Well, I think asking the question of how should you feel? Is maybe not as important as how should you respond? Because you're going to feel what you feel. And it's really more important to ask yourself the question, why am I feeling what I feel? So some people might feel excessive shame and embarrassment, and rather than just getting lost in that to say, okay, why do I feel this? Is there a need for perfection in my life that I feel like, do I feel like I've failed God? And I need to address the, is that even possible? What's driving those feelings that I'm having? Because another person may actually relapse and realize they don't feel much of anything and trying to figure out why don't I feel remorse or why am I not feeling guilt? Is it because there is health and I'm going to address this in a mature way, or is there a calloused part of my life that doesn't seem to care if I hurt other people and needing to address that? And so that's what I encourage someone, like, you're going to feel what you feel, but ask yourself why? And then to look at how do I respond in a way to see this not as restarting my journey because you're not. You've learned a lot. And how you handle that. Relapse is as much a part of recovery as avoiding relapse altogether. And that's something I'll try to talk to a guy who calls and is maybe feeling the shame and embarrassment of, I relapse and I have to tell my wife and what do I do? And I'll point out to them and say, in the past, would you have made this phone call?

Right.

Like, well, no. And in the past, would you have been even considering telling your wife? Well, no, in the past, would that it be this become part of a whole lot more relapses? Yeah. So to just pause there and say, that's growth, that's health, that you're already talking to me about it, you're already making a plan to talk to your spouse, and you're already avoiding going deeper. You're practicing the principle of the whole that when you're in a hole, stop digging, and you're putting down the shovel to say, I gotta stop digging before it gets worse. That's growth. That's movement in the right direction. And sometimes we need just to take that encouragement of I'm making progress.

Yup. So this is just a different kind of take on it for just a second. Just to put it a different way. For me, one of the layers I found in my recovery is that food was a big thing. And so it's like, if I'm eating healthy for a while and. And I've lost a lot of weight and then. And I just want to make sure I'm not minimizing a relapse, but just understand it in this context that if I was to have a cheat meal or in food, in a food addiction, have a relapse, I all of a sudden do not go back to the weight that I was at. I might feel really bad, but there's still a lot of progress that has been made. And obviously I need to address what happened, talk to the people I need to talk to, make sure I'm taking steps to get back on track and get moving in that right direction again. But it's something that it's not because. And that's something that's really important to understand, especially if you're new in recovery, that a relapse doesn't mean that you have to start back at game one. It's like. Like the baseball season is 162 games. Like, you can have 60 or 70 losses and still have a really successful season. Again, don't have 60 or 70 relapses. That's not what I'm saying. But that idea that it's always that forward motion. So I'm so glad that you said that, Nick, because I feel like that's something that a lot of people don't understand when they get into recovery. And I know that a lot of spouses struggle with this topic and this idea too. And so that's why, number one, I'm glad that we're talking about it, and two, that you addressed it that way. So kind of moving on. One of the things that we definitely don't want in recovery is to have consistent relapse. Right. We're gonna talk about it. That it's a part of recovery. But what steps can we take when we're trying to avoid this relapse?

Yeah. You know what's great about Pure desire is I think we have the proven tools in the process that will limit relapses, though. Relapses, we know that they're going to take place. I truly believe if a guy does. Is doing the homework, he's in the journal looking at the faster scale every day. And then making the phone calls. And then emphasize making the phone calls as the whole answer to this question on my side will limit those. And more than likely, you won't see. You won't. You'll start to see less and less and less relapses. I've never had a guy and, I don't know, ever since we started using a faster scale anyway, 20 years or whatever it is, call me after making a phone call and say he relapse. Meaning the guys who make a phone call don't relapse after making the call before a relapse.

Yeah.

So that's. I guess that's an encouragement because it takes two seconds to pick up the phone. And that two seconds can save a hardship. The discussion with your wife.

Right.

You've already disclosed your group member. You've basically thwarted a relapse.

Yeah.

And you move forward. So, I mean, out of all the tools we have.

Yeah.

That's the big one.

Yeah.

It's kind of the question of having a little bit of pain now or a lot of pain later. And I can face the pain now of a phone call. And you know what comes to mind for me as well in this is even the question itself maybe exposes a flaw in our thinking that we're too focused on avoiding relapse. How do I not do the thing I don't want to do when really the question is how do I stay in health? Because that's the faster scale is showing me. What does health and restoration look like for me, and how do I learn to live there? Because as soon as I move on to the faster scale at all, I'm moving away from health, and it's making relapse more and more possible. Now, it doesn't mean I am going to relapse, but it's possible. And that's why I think one of the tools we use called the matrix of addiction, or some just call it the cycle of addiction that encourages a person to sit down and think, where does it first start? Because it's usually not I want to relapse. It usually starts with avoidance, procrastination, isolation, all sorts of things, conflict that just pull me in that direction. And if I can see where it starts and do my work there, then I'm going to avoid the battle of relapse at the end of the line. And it's the question we've asked, and I've said it on this podcast a bunch, but which is easier to stop a train running 50 miles an hour down the tracks or to redirect one when it first gets started? And so if we're saying, how do I avoid relapse? And waiting until we're running 50 miles an hour down the track and we're tempted and all those neurochemicals are happening and we're remembering what it feels like, man, that's a losing battle. That's a tough place to be. So it's more to ask the question, where does all this start? And do the hard work there.

Yeah, you know, one of the things, too, and this is gonna seem really simple, but it's not simple in, like, application is if you find out, you know, you look at the matrix of addiction, or you look at that cycle and you realize. Cause for me, I realized that Twitter was a part of that. And so I realized, okay, this is one of the places it starts, maybe the feeling. And at that point, I hadn't identified the feeling that had triggered that. But I know that the next step after the feeling is to go to a social media place that I can find porn. And I'm gonna go with it. And I'm just gonna, like, I'm gonna be okay, but I'm just gonna surf, quote unquote, and I'll be okay. I'll be okay. And then, you know, an hour later, I've relapsed. So at that point, you have to make the really difficult and courageous decisions to cut those things out. And I feel like, again, it's really easy, like, just don't go into that store or just don't watch those types of movies. But I think that it's just one of those things where you have to get to the point where you're able to identify and be honest and then take the necessary step. And for me, that was a really practical thing where I felt like a new level of freedom was unlocked when I decided, okay, I'm just gonna get rid of Twitter. I'm not gonna have it. And I still don't have it because I've just decided I'd rather be healthy than have something that's potentially gonna be a pitfall for me. So I feel like it's a really practical and simple thing. But anything else rich that good?

No. Good to me.

Yeah. Well, and they could go back and listen to comments we've made about guardrails and boundaries, because that's a big one and knowing where to put those. So, Rich, in looking at our journey into health and recovery, when could a relapse be a positive thing? And obviously, we're not trying to say, so go out and relapse because it's positive, but. But if it does happen, is it ever a positive in our recovery?

Yeah, I was thinking about that today when I was looking at the questions, and ultimately you want to say, yeah, so it's kind of a yes and. Or kind of a combination. You know, I can't remember the scripture offhand, but, you know, I don't want to over spiritualize it either. But, you know, what. And what the enemy made for, for bad. You know, God can take that in for a positive, basically change it to a positive. So I think in that sense, in a relapse, we have the opportunity to look at some behaviors and especially maybe some new behaviors, because maybe it's. Maybe he didn't relapse on some of the old patterns that were typical for him. Maybe it's something new. There's some new triggers. So now we can look at maybe some of those new triggers and find out, okay, what's going on now that was different from your relapse six months ago.

Yeah.

So, yeah. In short, I think, you know, when there is a relapse, we can turn it into a positive.

Yeah. So that's. Man. One of the things, like finding that cycle, understanding that. One of the things. I've talked to a lot of group members, and this is just. As I've grown as a group leader and as I've grown In recovery, understanding that there are few times that are more potent in understanding that cycle then at a relapse. And we talk about this a lot, I feel like at events and around the country and in podcasts. But that idea of figuring out where does it start and what happens, it's a great. Like what we talk about a crash site analysis where it's like if you relapse, it's like, stop what you're doing. Like, even if it's like seconds after it happened, you got to start thinking about what just happened and not just what happened in the moment, but what happened in the last week or in the last couple weeks. How are you feeling? Were you alone? And start to identify it. One of my favorite apps that I've used is R Tribe, because that when you do relapse, it asks you those questions where it's like, look, how are you feeling? What time of day was it? What did you, you know, what was your week before that like? And so taking advantage of it because in. In and of itself, relapse is not a positive thing. But you're talking about that reframe, right, that you're now. I'm using it for good. I'm using it for recovery in the future. And a crash site analysis is super helpful in that.

Yeah. I think what I'd add to this is that a relapse will always be painful. Yeah, I mean, it will always be painful to have to go to my wife and share that news. It will always be painful to humble myself before my group and talk about what happened. It's painful to maybe adjust boundaries and guardrails and remove something that I enjoy, but I see has become part of a negative pattern. So if we can remind our brains, this will be painful because our brains like to avoid pain. And so if we can remember that, that's good. But as we've been talking about, God can use the pain. That's what God can use to change us. It's sometimes what will help us discover a new level of a new layer that we haven't dealt with. A new pattern that comes up or even just seeing how we become susceptible in health to new things because we don't go to the old places. But maybe we do feel more confident to waste time online or whatever it is. And that can create a new struggle. That's just something good for all of us to keep in mind is that we're human beings, not robots. And. And we change, we develop, we grow. And so just because we found what would create a healthy Pattern for us at one season of life doesn't mean five, ten years from now. It's still going to work. Now, hopefully we'll be healthier people. Hopefully we'll have a healthier mindset about it. But there are new challenges that come with new seasons, and if one of them gets us off track, then I think we look and we learn, and we continue to make that part of something God uses to help us grow and to mature.

And that takes a lot of humility to do that, especially if you've had some health that you've established and some recovery. To be aware that I'm not gonna be always okay. I was just. I feel like I have to say this. I was just having this conversation with my wife the other day where it's like, I'm about to finish group, my third round, and I'm about to step out of group, and I'm honestly, I am ready for a break from group. I've pretty much been at it for three straight years, a little bit longer than that, and I'm ready for a little break. And, like, my group members know it, and they're good. Love you guys. But. But I was like, I was telling her that I am about to do this, take this step away, and I want to make sure that we're good. I want to lock everything down. I want to make sure that we're at a good place and we're still practicing healthy habits. So inviting her more into my guard rails and into my faster scale and really starting to do that on a more consistent basis. And what I'm finding is that that's really something, especially if you've gotten to a comfortable spot in recovery, it's hard to still have that humility to step forward. And I'm just thankful that someone helped me identify that. They're like, look, man, you probably need to make sure to do this. So thanks, Bob. Bob. Was that guy, Bob Vandermeer having that conversation? But that's really helpful for me, so just wanted to share that. Just a recent thing that was helpful for me, but rich with this relapse potentially being a positive thing and we can use it. What are some ways that we can use it for recovery? If we want that forward motion, even though this bad thing happened and we still want to move in the right direction, how do we do that with a relapse?

Yeah. I think the most important thing is we gotta continue to reevaluate relapse looks like. Yeah. Whether it's four months, every six months. So if you have a relapse now. Your relapse in six months may be different. So that's where the three circles exercises. So I have my guys constantly, you know, every three, four months, looking at the three circles exercise, even from the beginning, even though three circles is later in the. In the material. But we go through that early on just so they can start identifying that. And then. So when you look at a relapse now and you look at the behaviors and you're constantly tweaking the outer circle, the inner circle, and the middle circle, and you're constantly adjusting that. So that's a way that you can create a healthy pattern moving forward and use this relapse, set some guardrails up. So, okay, I'm not going to do this is what was going on here. So now I'm not. I'm. I need to add this piece, because that's a different piece. Like I said before about, you know, maybe a different behavior led me to a relapse. So now that I know that this behavior is here, I got to put a guardrail in for that. So reevaluating your relapse every. Every so often is key.

I think it's good to remember what we've talked about on this podcast, that addiction is an intimacy and attachment disorder, that if we're relapsing, usually a place we need to look is, where am I at in my intimacy? And again, reminding our listeners that intimacy doesn't mean intimacy means relational closeness that comes because I'm real with someone, I'm uncomfortably close to them, and I experience love and attachment in terms of bonding. And so that opportunity to say, if I'm married, am I connecting with my spouse in ways that are creating that emotional health, that sense of connection and belonging. And if not, that opportunity to look at, you know, more regular date nights, having time together at the end of our workday, places where we just get to be friends and don't have to be parents or working on the house, that we have fun together. And then in terms of attachment and bonding with friends, how am I doing with my group? Am I making my phone calls? Am I prioritizing friendship? Because if. If relapse is happening because of isolation, withdrawal, and those negative patterns, then the healthy recovery will always be, how can I lean more into relationships? And I. I think there is an emotional intensity around relapse that we're willing to make some changes. And really, the key is, like, how to grab hold of that intensity. Yeah. And start making those changes when you feel how important it is rather than waiting a few weeks down the road where the pain subsides and we're like, oh, no, I think I'm okay. I don't really need that. Well, then we're probably going to cruise our way back into another relapse and then learn that hard lesson all over again.

So it's one of those things too, where. Because for me, a relapse would mean, okay, let's reevaluate the guardrails. Like, you know, maybe the inner circle where my crash is has expanded over time in recovery, but then also thinking through, how do I do better guardrails, how do I have better guardrails? But even another conversation I was having recently has really helped me kind of start to think it's not just more guardrails, it's finding things that are also healthy. So kind of what you're talking about, an extension of that, is finding those healthy avenues that are gonna push me toward health, that help me avoid the guardrails. Like maybe it's being physically fit or eating better or reading scripture at a certain time of day or going on a walk in the middle of the day when you know it's the most stressful part of your day after a certain meeting every week, something like that. You know, I'm not talking about any meetings I've had with you guys recently, just so you know.

Thanks for clarifying.

But that idea of it's not just avoiding. We talk about that a lot. It's not just about voiding certain actions. It's also putting in new habits that we're going to help you move forward in health.

Thumbs up.

Nice to meet you.

It must be my question. Everyone's looking at me. So this is a really practical one. If a relapse does happen, who should we disclose to? Who needs to know? Group, spouse, who else? What do we think about that?

I put a great answer. One word answer. I put yes, spouse. Really? Anybody in your circle?

So how detailed should this. So you're disclosing over relapse. How detailed is it?

I wouldn't go into grave detail, so.

To speak, with both group and spouse.

Yeah. Because especially with group, some of it could be triggering and probably with your spouse too. Now come time for a polygraph, she may want to know a little bit more information. And that would be something that would be worked out through counseling. But obviously if there's some issues that are health concerns, then obviously a full on, you know, disclosure to your spouse in that sense. But yeah, I mean, I think yes to everything. Involved, I mean, your support groups, your counselor, you know, spouse, in some cases, you know, kids, depending on how that's set up in your family. But I think if you don't, if you, if you just tell your group, if you're married and you just tell your group, I don't think it's good enough. Well, I know it's not good enough because you're not suffering any consequences. And we're not going to learn anything if we don't have consequences tied to our behavior.

Yeah, I think what I'd add to that is I would hope there would be at least one person in your life and it might be your group, it might be a mentor, it could be a counselor. Just kind of depends where you're at and in what season. But at least one person that you could share your crash site analysis with or those more in depth answers that someone else could really review with you and help kind of get a second, second, second set of eyes to look at what happened. And I think some guys in particular, it's not just guys, but I'd say more often that maybe feel like, oh, my wife doesn't want to know about that. And I'll pause and say, have you ever asked them? Because sometimes it's convenient out Now, I think there are relationships where a spouse has set up to say, okay, if you share with your group and talk to this mentor, then I don't need to be involved at this level. But I think most spouses would say no if those lines are crossed and it's a relapse. I feel like I need to know because I need to know what happened. And in a healthy relationship, they can be a part of the recovery. Because if you give them at least enough detail, for example, to say, you know, last night I stayed up, I was watching TV by myself, I watched something inappropriate and I relapsed, then they need to be aware of a behavior change that needs to take place there, where a boundary for you might become that I don't watch TV alone by myself at night with everyone in bed, and for my wife to know that my family to know that I don't do that is actually going to help me keep it. Whereas if I never tell them and I just tell my group, well, my group's not there late at night when I'm tempted to watch TV by myself. And so I need my spouse's engagement. And like I said, I think most spouses, they feel like that's something that should be shared. And if you're not having that conversation, I'd encourage a listener to go to their spouse and say, hey, if. If I cross these lines, or maybe to say, what's the point at which you feel I need to share with you? Because I want to be honest. I don't want to be hiding things from you. For all of us, if we're hiding things, it creates more secrets and more likelihood we're going to keep doing that. So we need to go to our spouses and say, what's the level at which you feel like you want to know? Because you can help be a part of the recovery. And you need to have an awareness of what I'm doing so that you can make your decisions as well about whether or not we should be sleeping in the same bedroom or whether or not you feel you can trust me, because that's the reality of what you're talking about. Rich. Those are some of the natural consequences that we need to learn to face. To say, this isn't just hurting me. This hurts my relationships. And it's not telling them that hurts them. It's what I did that hurt them. And if I don't tell them, I'm more likely to keep doing it. So we got to face the music so that we change.

Yeah, sorry. That's the one piece that we can add to the importance is the rap sheet. You know, so the spouse has her consequences lined up so he understands being.

Recovery action plan for newer listeners and be like, well, a rap sheet, right? And let's like prison.

Let's make sure we understand, too, that we're talking like both genders have recovery action plan. So both men and women struggle with this. But you're right. Recovery action plan for sure. I think another thing, too, just with this question, and I think this is, well, just summarizing basically what you guys have said, that it's not a matter of is this something that maybe the spouse wants, but it probably is something they should know because of that consequence. And this is a thing that we struggle with with a lot of people who are single in group. Like, where does that consequence come from? Because if they're not in a romantic relationship, whether it's boyfriend, girlfriend, engaged, you know, that kind of thing, they're really. It's almost like that tangible motivation that a lot of people have when they get into group because they're Marri is at a really difficult spot. That's one unbelievable motivator, and I've seen that. And so this is a struggle that I even have sometimes as a group leader, understanding how to properly motivate someone who's single. But it's. I mean, relapse can also be that motivation, too, where it's like, okay, let's reevaluate again where we're going.

For the single person, you're right, it can be harder to have the motivation. But I would almost say the recovery action plan is more important for a single person to make that commitment to their group because they're saying, here's a behavior in my life I want to change, and I know I won't change unless there's a cost. And so I'm committing to you guys, my group, that if I make these choices, I'm committed to these consequences so that I will learn and grow. Whereas honestly, for the married guys, if you just are honest with your spouse about a relapse, there will come enough consequences. The recovery action plan may not even be needed. Now, in that case, the recovery action plan can create some healthy guardrails to run on so that a spouse doesn't just kind of go off emotionally. But for that single guy or gal, it helps them take initiative to say, I know I don't have the natural pain of a marriage, so I'm going to choose the pain so that, lord willing, when I do get married, I'm healthy and not having to continue battling this.

Yeah, absolutely. Okay, so this has been such a fun episode so far, right? In so many ways. But I think, again, this is a topic that is really important as we understand what recovery actually looks like. And so one of the questions. And Rich, you kind of have alluded to it a couple times already, but the idea of relapse changing or the definition of it in our recovery changing over time. Let's talk about that.

Yeah, like I said, we pretty much kind of talked about that a little bit about reevaluating what relapse looks like. You know, for me, if I look at myself, ticked off is kind of my. My relapse area, you know, the anger part or whatever. So nothing sexual, Nothing. Nothing that falls in any of those other categories, but ticked off is a pretty dangerous spot for me.

So is that something you disclose then? Like, is that. Because, I mean, if we're talking like, relapse of people who are in recovery and it's porn of masturbation, and they disclose that to your wife. Is that something that you disclose if you get to ticked off?

Oh, yeah, absolutely.

What does that look like? What's that conversation look like?

Well, one with my wife. I don't even have to disclose it. She Just knows. Yeah, yeah, she gets, I mean, because it is, it's when you're ticked off. I mean, it's just body language. It's how we talk to our spouse. It's that whole.

The language we use. Maybe.

Yes.

Yeah. How many times you've golfed this week?

Yeah. Zero.

Okay.

So, yeah, so I think it's, it's easy to reevaluate that. But yeah, disclosing it, I think you still, whatever you decide is your relapse area. You still have to disclose that because that, I mean, like Nick said, it's, it's healthy because now we've got a safety plan up for. Okay, well, if he's ticked off and he yells at me or does this or slams the door, then okay, this is a consequence. So your consequence is going to be this same but different.

Okay, so a follow up question I have to that and I think this is something, you know, I've got guys in my group right now who are their first time through pillars and I know that there are probably a lot of people who in their first time hear that, that it does change. But the natural question comes, when does relapse change? When does that definition change? What do you guys think about that?

Boy, that's going to be different for each guy.

So for you, give some examples of when and why that was able to change or you decided to make that change.

Gosh, for me, unfortunately. I don't say unfortunately, but fortunately it was, it was very easy for, for my, my choice in relapse, obviously with the legal stuff that I went through, as we've shared on previous podcasts and with probation and polygraphs. So it was just very easy for me to set up healthy boundaries the whole way through. Now for another guy, it's going to be completely different. So you have six, seven guys in group or whatever. Each one's re evaluation is going to look different. So there's no real pat answer for it. Some guys have probably struck. I've seen guys struggle and basically the same relapse over and over and over, just the same pattern over and over and over again. The pattern never changes. But for other guys, you do see certain patterns, behaviors change, you know, because they're trying, they're, they're working on their normal relapse patterns. But now other stuff is starting to come in.

Yeah, I think it's kind of a question of what are we focused on? Because you can only focus on so much at once. I mean, by definition, focus is looking at one thing, right? So if, if we find we're having success. And I think that six month timeframe we've talked about for a lot of things is useful that if, if I've gone a full six months without relapsing in a certain area, might realize my focus can shift a little bit to some other things. But the other part I would add is to clarify, I don't know that I would use the word change. I think I would use the word add to because you're never going to get rid of the things that brought you into group. So if you're struggling with a relapse, that's pornography and masturbation, that will always be on your relapse list. But what you might add to it is now seeing, wow, one of the ways I cope now is I binge eat. So now binge eat becomes a relapse. Or as you said, Rich exploding in anger. It really comes back to a great statement Rich made at the beginning of where am I giving up and giving in? And if that's food, add it to your relapses. If that's anger, add it to your relapses. If that's pornography, obviously that's a relapse. So really looking at where do I hit that point that I give up and give in? Because I probably need to add that to my relapse list, especially if I'm starting to find success in those core areas that brought me in initially.

I feel like one of the things too that, and this is a lot of just our culture, like, we get really comparative. And so it's like, well, if Rich has changed his relapse to being ticked off, but mine is still porn and masturbation, then somehow I'm not as far along in recovery as you are, which naturally you've had years and years further in recovery than I have. But that's not the truth. Like, it doesn't, it really doesn't matter. Like, if you're doing stuff that's unhealthy and it's hurting your relationships and other people, that's stuff that we gotta stop. And let's just focus on that. And so, because I know I've had this conversation in group where like, my relapse is different than someone who's just starting in recovery. But that's, it's not a, it's not a comparison game. So to not get caught into that because, and I feel like I've been saying it a lot recently and maybe it's just because I feel like I'm a little bit more Aware to it. But we don't give the devil enough credit how smart he is and how tactful he is in some of this stuff because he'll just put a little drop of shame in there, and then all of a sudden it just jacks you up.

Well, and I think a lot of times, especially guys in group, if we're. If as a leader, we're not talking about it. You know, the comorbidity piece. So you've got multiple addictions. So you've got sex, drugs and alcohol. Maybe a guy isn't acting out with porn and masturbation, but he's still relapsing because he's going back to alcohol and he's drinking or drugs, and he's just in that cycle. So he's. He's still in a constant relapse, but it's just different every time. So I think we have to be aware of. I think Nick was saying about those other. Those other areas. So.

Well, that kind of leads into a great question. If we're in a group and a group member comes to us, male or female groups, if they come and admit to a relapse and talk about it, how should we respond in a way that will be helpful to our group member?

Yeah, this one's a tough one for me because first. First, I mean, you gotta love them where they're at and you accept them. I mean, that's just. That's why we show up. But for me, as a leader, it's really hard because I. Sometimes I'll question myself. It's like, okay, what did I miss? What. What question did I not ask them? Or I didn't hear, or how come I didn't call him on this day? So I. Me personally, not every leader, but I tend to take them kind of personal. So it helps me to become a better. You're not alone in that because it helps me to become a better leader. So if I miss one, it's like, okay, now I know what to look for. And so I'm constant. I mean, you're constantly learning because every group is completely different. The types of relapses that we're seeing are not the same kind of relapses that were 10 years ago by any means. So there's a lot of things that come into a relapse, but, yeah, it's short. You know, you just gotta love them where they're at, because they already feel horrible. You know, they're scared, and they just. You know, the only safe place they have in that moment Is that in group?

Yeah. So we talk about, like, unhealthy group members or unhealthy group leaders. Some of the things I've done that have been unhealthy is just jump in and start telling them what I think. But the longer I've been in group, I'm starting to see that it's a great time to ask questions. Like, if someone just relapsed, you start asking questions about. Okay, walk me through your week. What happened? Was there something unique or different about this week? Did you stay up too late? Did you. Because you're banking on some of that stuff that you already know, that you've seen some patterns. And I love the fact that we're in group and compul directly from our recent experiences. I had a recent experience like that where I saw a pattern, and instead of identifying the pattern, I asked questions to try to help a group member get to the point where he saw it was a pattern. And then that is gonna. That's. That's change then happens there. It doesn't happen if I'm like, hey, you, sir, have done this, and this is what you need to do to change, instead of me helping kind of corral them into the reality. And so I feel like that's your best time to ask questions as a group leader. Like, don't be the expert, but ask great questions.

Well, that's. That's what's great about the. The journal. So if you. If you're running a group and you're not using a journal, you need to get the journal.

Yeah, plug.

Yeah, plug. Because the journal. The importance of that is when there is a relapse, we can look back at the previous. Yeah. Three, four weeks, six, whatever it is. And. And you can start seeing them slide and say, okay, let's. We need to go back two months ago from your last relapse. And this is where we. You started sliding down the scale to see if we can pick up any patterns. So they're gonna change.

I do think we need to be careful just to kind of present the other side of this, that we don't take unhealthy responsibility on ourselves as a group member or group leader. Because I get what you guys are saying about, you know, feeling a little personal. What could I have done better? Sure. But we need to make sure we're not blaming ourselves for their bad choices. Yeah, we can learn and grow, but we can't take responsibility for their actions, nor can we take more ownership of their recovery than they are. So not only do we not want to tell them what to do, but I think we have to try to ferret out what are they willing to do to recover. Because if they're in a place they're not really working to do much, we may need to come alongside them and say, hey, it seems like you're being pretty casual about relapses. I asked you about what kind of steps you're going to take for recovery. You said, I don't know. I asked you what you're willing to change in your life to avoid this. You said nothing. I just want to tell you as a friend that I love you're probably going to keep relapsing because I can't make them do anything they don't want to do. But if they're looking for help and they want answers, then we provide maybe suggestions, we ask good questions. But some of it does go back to the individual of are they really looking to make change or just getting caught in that cycle of oh, I just confess it and sooner or later it'll go away. Just this binge. And that just is our binge purge cycle happening. So there may be times you need to. And I would do this outside of group, but pull a guy aside and point that out. Say you feel like just coming to group and being honest is all you need.

Right.

Honesty is the starting point. But if that's all you're gonna do, you're gonna just having to keep coming back and being honest over and over.

Let's turn into a traditional accountability group.

Then and trying to help them see and then pray that they find that motivation to go more to look how to recovery and change their plan. Otherwise, as leaders, I think we have to have those honest conversations to say we can't magically fix you just because you come and share honestly what happened. Yeah, you've got to be willing to do some work to change.

Which I think what we're getting to also is that to pay attention as a group leader. Like pay attention to what's going on and how your people in group are responding, are acting, are relapsing, are growing or not growing because like you're talking about being honest and upfront with somebody, that obviously comes with relationship, that you earn that credibility or rapport with somebody. And that only happens if you've done enough relationship with that person. And so if you're just like taking a stab in the dark, that's different than I've got actual results that I've been paying attention to that I've seen and can speak out of that truth to somebody. So if anything, I guess it'd be an encouragement for a group leader to eyes up, like, pay attention to what's going on in group. And don't just Because, I mean, I'm gonna get off on a tangent here, but, like, don't just focus on your recovery at that point. Your recovery. At this point, you're probably at a place where your recovery has been moving forward for a little while, but don't take that responsibility of someone else's health on you. But at the same time, you guys are both looking at me like I'm ranting. I know, but don't take that responsibility on yourself. But do take the mantle. The ownership of you paying attention can help a lot of people.

Yeah. Well, and just to underscore where Rich started with this, that when someone shares, I think you just got to train yourself that your first words are always thank you.

Yeah.

Thank you for sharing. Thank you for being honest. Thank you for being here. We appreciate you because we are fixers, and someone shares, and we can jump right in with the questions, what about? And that can feel. If you're the one that's just shared that relapse, you feel maybe attacked and put on the spot. And that's why we do have the group guardrail or the boundary about asking permission. Would you mind if I ask you a question? Because someone may be so emotional or shut down, they might say, you know what? Not tonight. I'm just not ready. And to respect that and again, thank them for sharing so that it creates that environment where people want to share because they know they'll be loved and affirmed and not have 18 guys asking him 18 questions because that also can shut down sharing. It's like, I don't want to go through the grill squad, so I'm not gonna be honest.

Right. Yeah. That's a good way to encourage a guy to not share or a gal to not share anybody in group. So we've covered a lot so far in the episode, but let's just end with this. Oh, my gosh. Yes. I was a little nervous coming into the conversation a little bit, but I know this is gonna be helpful for a lot of people. So with that, guys, what would be some final thoughts or encouragements for anybody listening around this topic of relapse?

You know, I think the biggest thing is a relapse isn't the end. All be all.

That's a good word.

And if I look at my life, I think the biggest part in my story, which is really would Be key for anybody in a relapse or not just relapse, but just whatever is, is that there's healing in the consequences. That may not make sense, but in my life that's where I experience healing through the consequences. I probably wouldn't be here if I didn't have those consequences early on. Obviously my story is a lot different than others. But not to be afraid of the consequences, because that's where God's going to meet us is in that. That realm there. And don't think that the biggest thing is really doesn't define who you are. I mean, God says who we are. A relapse isn't going to change what the guys in our group, the women in our group, what God or spouse. That's not going to be a definition of who we are.

I think my encouragement would be that this can be a painful area. And so our human nature is to want to avoid painful things. And there's a piece of all of us that doesn't want to think about this. Just like, I'll just never do it again. I don't want to have a plan. But actually, the less we think about it, in some ways we're making it more likely that it will happen. So we need to be willing to face the pain and have hard conversations with ourselves, our group, our spouses, about our recovery action plan, our guardrails, what we're going to do if it happens, who we're going to tell, how soon we're going to tell. Because the more that's in place, there's kind of that Murphy's Law thing of the less likely we are to need it because we've focused on it and we know. And now we've kind of lost the hiddenness. We've lost all the little caveats our brain used to find. Well, I could relapse this way. No. It's like, no, okay. I've committed to do these things and tell these people, and we just don't go there. So face the pain ahead of time and you'll actually help yourself in the long run because then you won't go to that place as often or maybe ever, because you really have that plan in place. So it's kind of counterintuitive, but it's worth the time and investment to have a plan and then hopefully the better the plan you have, you won't need it.

Yeah, okay. So my I guess thought is. And this is for maybe spouses too, just everybody kind of involved in this process to understand that. Because for me, I Had a friend tell me this analogy once, that God views us like a kid learning to walk. And I, you know, because my son is 2 and I've lived this life very recently, I understand it a lot better now that as he was learning to walk, when he would fall down, I wouldn't yell at him and scream at him and get upset at him, but I would understand that he's learning how to stand up, he's learning how to walk. And it's a progressive thing. And to understand that the nature of recovery is very similar, that it's going to take time. And it doesn't mean that those points where you fall down aren't going to hurt. That's definitely going to happen. But to understand that this is a progressive and a forward moving thing, it's not a one and done. You don't graduate. Recovery isn't a degree you get in the mail. It's something that you continually work at. And so that may make some people upset that I say that. And it may feel like I'm minimizing, you know, relapse. I'm not minimizing. It is very, very difficult situation and a part of recovery that's very tough. But to understand, it's just that, as you guys are saying, it's a part of the recovery. So to understand and look at it that way, because what we're after is we're after health and emotional intimacy and relationships. And that happens in a growth spurt that doesn't happen all at once. It happens over time. So if you are upset at me, you can email me. That's okay. But I know that that's really a tough thing to take and a tough thing to swallow. So, guys, relapse is a part of recovery, right? We've talked about that. It's part of the process.

Yeah.

It's not something we want, it's not something we want to justify, but we need to understand that that's the truth. So appreciate you guys sitting down at the new table. For any listener out there who maybe doesn't see the video of this, we're sitting at a new table. It's super nice and thanks guys for your time. Appreciate it.

Good stuff. Thanks.

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