104 – Healthy Sex Life

Foreign.

You're listening to the Pure Desire Podcast. Your safe place to find hope, healing, and freedom from sexual addiction, betrayal and relationship issues. Hey, hey, hey, people, this is your host, Trevor Windsor. You are listening to episode 104 of the Pure Desire podcast. I am sitting here with my co host, as always, Nick Stumbo.

Thank you. Thank you very much.

Okay, so for our younger listeners who maybe don't know who that is, you're going to have to fill them in.

Do you know who it is?

I do.

Can you tell me to make sure that I did an okay accent?

I feel like it's Elvis Presley. Yes. Yeah.

Ok. Yeah, yeah. That was the goal. Yes. The kind of iconic Elvis Presley lines after he would be introduced. Yes.

I'm going to be honest. It was more of what you said and not how you said it. Just full disclosure. But it wasn't a bad. It wasn't bad. It wasn't bad. I was with you.

Okay.

I was with you. So today we sat down with one of our favorite people, Heather Kolb, our content manager and neuroscience specialist on really what healthy sexuality is like in a marriage.

Yeah. I think this is so important because we are, in a sense, opening the door on a conversation that is left behind closed doors. I mean, it is a private act between a married couple, but because of that, too many married couples have just never even been able to talk about it with each other, let alone anyone else. So I hope this episode just brings some freedom, both in conversations they can have with one another and then maybe where they can turn to get health and wisdom in their life.

Yeah. And for any of you who have listened to the podcast before episode 57, we have a conversation with Bob and Rebecca Vandermeer on sex during recovery. And this is kind of an extension of that episode. This is more of a what does healthy sex in your life, in your marriage look like? So enjoy the episode. Heather, thanks for being here. We are excited, I guess I am excited as a married person to talk about this. We were talking about healthy sex life. Dum, dum, dum. I feel like. So thank you for being here and talking about it.

Happy to be here.

So in the realm of sexuality and relationships, it's super easy to fall prey to the comparison game. I mean, you watch any movie, you listen to any music, everything is being compared to everything else. And I think the same thing happens in relationship when it comes to healthy sexuality. And so really, how do we know, not by comparison, that we do or don't have a healthy sex life?

You know, that is a great question. And we hear that so much in our environment here at Pure Desire that we've even included a table in some of our resources that really just gives some indications of what is unhealthy sexuality look like compared to healthy sexuality and things like, is it degrading or shaming? Is it something that is only meeting the needs of one person, or is it mutually satisfying? You know, those are some of the comparisons that we see and that we hear back from really healthy couples, comparatively. Another thing, too, is looking at really why we're doing what we're doing. You know, is it something that. That when it comes to sex, are our needs being met? You know, are they being met in this healthy way? Or is it something that we're just using to medicate our pain? Or is it something that we feel, you know, comfortable in our sexuality enough so that we'll talk with our spouse about it, you know, that we'll just kind of put ourselves out there and that we take a lot of those risks of being honest and vulnerable. And that right there is a huge indication of where your sex life is.

Yeah. And I think that's why I'm so glad we're doing this podcast, because my guess is for most people, we simply don't talk about it. We didn't grow up in homes that talk about it. We don't attend churches that make it a regular part of our preaching or teaching. So there's. For so many of us, there was just this assumption that you'd get married and figure it out like everybody else did. And so you don't have a context even to. You know, sometimes the comparisons we do have are to such unhealthy or unrealistic comparisons. But because we don't have a grounding in something realistic or truthful, we don't even know that we're comparing to something that's totally unrealistic. And so we. We get lost really easily in this area. And I think if anything comes out of this episode, I hope it's that we'll have people able to engage in this conversation in a healthy way with their spouses or with group members, just to have a framework for what does a biblical, healthy sexuality look like? Because that's the other side of it. You can go to the world and read books or listen to Dr. Phil or special guests, and because they're not coming from a biblical worldview, so some of what they teach might be actually counterproductive to what we're trying to build into our marriages. So I hope we give people some helpful kind of places to start this discussion in their own relationships or if they're married in their own marriage.

I think that this is such an interesting thing, especially in the church. But, like, I definitely. And I've had conversations with you about this. I've had conversations with other staff too. Like, I just naturally think that people are having better sex than I am. Like, and it's not because I feel like my relationship with my wife is bad. It's just, I just assume if you've been married for 40 years, that means that sex is, like, incredible. Maybe not 40 years. Maybe like 15 or 20 years. I don't know what it's like to be that old. That was terrible. People are gonna wish people are so happy that I'm probably not cutting this and leaving this episode. But for me, that's just. That's the thing. I so naturally just assume that mine is less or somehow the emotional connection or whatever. So. And I said this at the beginning. I'm super excited to talk about this because I'm just gonna gl everything and anything from you guys, so don't screw it up.

Okay, well, let's go to the starting point that most couples begin at. And it might be because of some of this comparison game or just the ideals we bought into in our culture. But, Heather, how would you answer this question that's burning a hole in people's minds? How often should couples be having sex?

There's no magic number I know to throw that out there.

Such a cop out answer.

Well, it's the truth, because it's one of those things that it really depends on your season of life. So for young couples, for newly married couples, they might be having sex all the time because it's new and exciting and they're figuring it out and they're willing to take risks.

Lots of free time.

Exactly right. Seriously, they have it made sometimes when it comes to sexual experience. But then on the other hand, they don't have that longevity that you see with other couples and even couples that are, you know, having kids. That can be a little bit of a rocky road for couples when it comes to their sex life. You know, especially for new moms. You know, having sex can be scary, and they have to be super intentional with, you know, after that six to eight weeks mark, that they re engage with their husband and having sex, that can be really scary. And then at the same time, when your kids get a little bit older, especially when women get to their mid-30s and they reach their sexual peak, that can be kind of exciting for parents who have kids. And then even for older couples, you know, there's some, you know, really great time. Like you were saying, Trevor, that you have all this experience, and so you would expect to have great sex, but then there's things like menopause or erectile dysfunction that interfere. And so really, it has to do with your season of life, I think, more than anything else.

I think, like, obviously, you've got the hormonal and the physical changes of having kids. And I mean, anybody who's listening to the podcast knows that we're in that season. You know, our son is two. Um, it's not even just those things on the. Like, on the female side, really, because there's so many changes that happen there. But it's also, as you're kind of talking about the emotional intimacy and the connection, that stuff changes because we're spending so much time and energy pouring into this little guy that by the end of the day, we have less energy. Right. You're talking about, like, you have more time. And in my friend group, we do make fun of those couples that, like, have no kids and have two jobs, and there's a code name for it, and I can't remember it right now. My friends are gonna be so upset that I don't remember it, but.

Dinks.

Right, Right. Double income, no kids. Yes. Thank you.

Thank you.

Right.

We love our children. We love our children. Let's be honest. But I just think that there is that season where a lot of energy is going to other things, and sometimes sex can take that the back burner. And as I've. The longer I've been married, we're almost at four years now. The longer I've been married, I've been understanding that that doesn't necessarily dictate the health of the relationship. And I'm so thankful you're saying that the seasons. Because it's okay. Like, maybe you're in win, and it's like everyone's burrowed inside with blankets on, and there's, like, nothing happening, and that's okay. And for me, I'm even saying this and trying to internalize it. That doesn't mean that relationship is poor or that I'm somehow a subpar husband because my wife doesn't want to jump my bones every 10 seconds. That doesn't mean anything as far as the health of our relationship.

Right, Exactly.

And while I agree completely with that idea of seasons of life and where we're at, I think we have to be careful, too, that that doesn't actually become a shaming or a condemning voice for us. Because I've talked to a lot of young couples that they get Marri, and it's not easy for some reason. It's hard to connect, or it's painful, or she's got emotional baggage, or he does, or he's got this sex addiction he's brought in. I mean, there can be all sorts of things, family of origin issues, you name it, that might make a young couple's sex life difficult. But if they feel like, well, we're young married and we're in a season of life, and Heather just said they're having sex all the time and we're not, what's wrong with us? And that can be the very thing that maybe keeps them in hiding because they don't know how to face that. That ideal that we're not what we should be. I think some of the greatest advice I got at our wedding, just a relative that said, you know, on your honeymoon, be patient with each other. Just that idea of being patient. And what that meant to me, and as I thought of it now for almost 20 years, like that meant, take time to get to know yourself and your spouse and how you relate. And whatever it is, it is, don't try to meet up to some season of life expectation or what you believe others are. Be okay with where you're at. And then if you find you're in a season of life where you're not connecting, you know, be willing to ask questions. If there's a medical issue, to be willing to face that if there is an addiction issue, being willing to get help with that if there's pain involved or emotional things that if you can have the conversation and face it, don't let your season of life condemn you. Because the other flip side of it might be a young couple with kids are just like, well, we never have sex because we never have energy. It's like, well, but maybe you should be thinking about how to prioritize that a little bit, how to create some date nights, how to create some space where you do feel like it because it's part of a healthy relationship that you don't want to just excuse. Well, you know, I'll see you in 10 years in bed when our kids go to college, because that relationship won't be very strong. So, yes, we want to acknowledge the reality of our season of life, but also not let it kind of become something that condemns us and leads us into unhealthy behavior.

So completely off topic of the Types of questions that we have, I just have a random question kind of in the middle. You've heard people, I've heard people say that like, I've heard two perspectives. One, like, look at the bedroom and you'll be able to tell how healthy a couple is. Or if it's really healthy, the relationship, then it'll be healthy in the bedroom. And for me it's kind of this like spectrum of understanding that is it something that that's where intimacy starts? Is that the end of intimacy? Like, where is that gauge when it comes? Like, basically my question is what really is the role of sex in a healthy relationship?

So I think that that's a great question because a lot of people think that if we're having great sex, then we're having, then we have a great relationship. And that's not necessarily the case. In fact, in I think the healthiest relationships, you'll find that their emotional intimacy and their emotional health is so great and so connected that then their sex life is a reflection of that relationship. It really, I think that they have to go together. And emotional health and emotional intimacy often precedes a great sex life.

So I've heard people say that if you are, and I mean, I'm not quoting one specific person, I've just heard this perspective that if stuff is not going well in your relationship, like the bedroom can be a restart. I've heard that said before. So is that a thing? Yes or no?

Personally, I would be careful with that only because it depends on why you're restarting. And that is a great question because a lot of people have that perspective that if what are the three things that it's finances, communication and sex. And that if those are the make it or break it topics, usually within a marriage. And so if your finances are poor and you're not communicating well, then we're going to have sex and it's going to fix everything. And it doesn't really work that way because again, you're trying to solve a problem with usually the same brain that caused the problems. You know what I'm saying?

Yeah, that's good.

Yeah. And I think more often than not couples can use sex as a cover up for what they should be addressing. Where we feel like, well, we had sex three times last week, so we're great. When really maybe all these issues aren't being addressed and that just becomes this kind of false security blanket. I do think it's helpful to recognize that kind of there are some gender uniquenesses that men can tend to pursue sex because they want to feel connected, where women will pursue sex when they feel connected. And so you can see that's an obvious setup for problems in relationship, because we'll tend to go through the lens of what we want, whereas we need to have that selflessness to set aside our wants to say, well, what is it my wife is looking for? Or what is it that my husband is looking for? Because if I know what my wife wants is connection so that she feels in the mood, then I need to be willing to work on connection. I don't want to do it selfishly just to get what I need. But let's be honest, we're all humans with mixed motives, that if that's mixed in there, I can't really help that I'm by nature drawn to things that feel good. But if I really have a sincere desire to bless my wife and serve her, to say, I know she needs connection and sex won't make her feel connected. So how can I work on connection? How can I work on quality time, a good conversation? Because in the long run, that will benefit her and could create the kind of sexual connection I'm looking for. So I think for men and women listening, if we're willing to say what helps my partner, that it might not be what I want and I'm willing to serve them and look at what they need, it's going to lead to a healthier outcome, I think.

Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Right. That idea of Philippians, that's good. Okay, another super easy, simple question. The question is, is it okay to say no?

Yes.

The answer to the question is yes.

Yes. So is it okay to say no or not be in the mood for sex? Absolutely. And it's one of those things that. And we'll talk about this. What are some legitimate reasons why, you know, people say no to sex? And that's not just for women, but for both men and women. There are reasons why, I think that you want to look too at why you're saying no. You know, is it something that is a genuine, you know, legitimate issue, or are you saying no because you're really mad at your husband and this is a way to pay him back? And so you're going to be passive aggressive with sex, you know, which is never helpful, you know, And. But you sometimes see that in relationships it's just a byproduct of not communicating our needs well. And so we tend to, I don't know, use sex against each other sometimes. And that's not Healthy, but yes, absolutely. There are times we've talked about that we will talk more about when people just have a right to say no and it's okay.

And I think if we're on the flip side of that, of the one receiving a no, we need to be willing to. I think the way I'd put it is deal honestly with our own reaction to it, our own emotional response, because it's. It's so common for us to feel that that rejection is about us and immediately make it about, well, aren't I not good enough? And don't I have what you want? All these things, it's about me. It's like, I have to do this for myself. Because when I get a no, it immediately becomes a very. The rejection and performance issues all get tied in and I have to try to call a mental timeout and go, wait a minute, it's not always about me. And to try to think about life from her perspective of what kind of day has she had and what's going on in her world? And you know what? If that was all true of my day, I might be saying no too. And to take a deep breath and not turn every sexual advancement into a measure of my worth and value, because I think that's what we do. Like, if we have sex, I'm valuable, I'm worth it, I'm loved. And if we don't, there's something wrong with me. So just to deal honesty with our own emotional reaction to that is really important so that we can receive a no and not take it as a personal rejection.

Yeah, I think we'll get into this a little bit later too. But that idea of understanding the other side of that too, when a no is being communicated, how that's being communicated, that still adds value to that person, that it's. And it may be that is an over communication of, look, it's not because I don't think you're attractive or because I love you or because I like having sex with you, but it's because I've had one heck of a day and your kids did this to me today. You know what I mean? Like something like that, where you're. And that takes energy, right? That takes, like investment of communicating. And I think that that will also go a long way in the way that we communicate about sex.

Yeah.

So along these lines, what a lot of our listeners might be hearing is the words from First Corinthians, chapter 7, verse 5. It gets pulled out in a lot of situations or contexts like this. That says do not deprive each other, except perhaps by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Often in the church, we've heard this passage taught that sex should not be withheld, especially by the wife, it seems. And there are times even maybe a husband or a wife might pull that out as, like, this wildcard of no, you. You have to say yes. So what kind of thoughts do you guys have about the purpose of that verse and how can it rightly be applied in a relationship?

I think that that's a great question because it is often misused. And it's one of those things that I think that, like you said, for women, that they feel like, okay, well, the Bible says that I have to have sex with my husband every time he wants sex. And that's not at all what that's saying. But I think that also withholding sex from your spouse is not healthy, especially if it's something where it's not that agreed upon time period. And it's one of those things, too, that that scripture to me is focusing on our health. Let's step back. Let's take sex off the table for however long we agree so that we both can be healthy, so we can get our minds in a healthy place and our hearts in a healthy place and maybe invest a little bit on our emotional connection before we come back together physically.

Yeah, I just think of the. And I've totally had these attitudes, for sure, where it's used really as like, a chip to get what I want. Like, this is a. This is a tactic I'm using in order to get what I want. And it's interesting how even in addiction, you use what's true or what's biblical to, like, finagle your way around, you know, these, like, loopholes to get what you want. And so for me, I just feel. Man, I feel really bad for the people who. This has been used in an abusive way. And I don't mean sexual abuse, but I just mean using it in a way where they didn't feel like they could say no. And it really just. It makes me sad. But I think that we always have to go back to. And we've talked about this already, the motivations behind it, that maybe, maybe your marriage is in a place where sex hasn't been something that's on the table. And this is an absolutely important passage that needs to be addressed in your marriage. Like, look, this is something that isn't a part of our marriage. And to have that open and honest dialogue with grace you know, being loving to each other and having that. But I think, and this is just my experience growing up in the church, this is definitely used more from like a top down kind of talking down to a wife or a spouse who sex maybe isn't a big deal to them or it's just they're in that kind of season. So I think that I just would say always go back to what's the motivation of bringing this passage up in this conversation, whether you're a pastor, whether you're a husband or a wife, whether you're a leader in the church, what's the motivation behind it?

Yeah, you know, I think about if I were going around and saying to people, you're to serve one another out of love, so go shine my shoes or go do my work for you me, or go fetch me my suitcase, that I'm immediately abusing the whole purpose of that verse. I can't be the one demanding that you serve me in that way. And I think as a spouse, if we're the one saying, hey, you can't deprive me because the Bible says I'm immediately twisting the purpose of that passage. And it really, to me, it's for us to take that responsibility on ourselves, to recognize the biblical mandate that my body is not my own. And I'm here to focus on the needs of my spouse, and as they're here to focus on my needs. But if I'm telling you, you can't deprive me, I'm not actually focusing on your needs now. I'm focusing on mine. And that is immediately going against kind of the theme of not just this verse, but of all of scripture. The other thing that always comes to mind for me is I think we read in a 21st century version of sexuality into a 1st century scripture passage. Because what is Paul intending when he says do not deprive one another? We read a 21st century sex saturated anytime you want, as often as you want kind of mindset. And I mean, I don't know exactly what Paul is referring to with the word do not deprive, but I'm guessing it's not the same kind of cultural context we have. And that much more sporadic kind of sexual relationship between husband and wife may have been very, very common in the first century. And so I think we just have to make sure we're not reading into it what we want it to say, but we take it with, as you were saying, Heather, how do we be healthy and how do I apply this to myself, not demand it of you.

Yeah, that could be a culture change in a church where you start to really view sexuality in that way that it's not something. Because I think this is just. My guess is that the perspective brought into this type of argument is usually a male dominated argument. It's usually coming from a man, I would guess, in unhealthy ways. So I'm not accusing anybody of this, but I just. To me it seems more about the guy than it does both people and their sexual health together.

I've joked with couples in pre marriage counseling and said if he ever pulls out that card and says, you know, you're not supposed to deprive me, that you can pull out to the wife, I'll say pull out and say, well, you're supposed to love me like Christ loved the church and he died for her. So anytime you're willing to go die, then I'll be willing to not deprive you.

Basically, Jesus never had sex. So there you go. Okay. Just kidding.

It just points out there's any number of Bible verses we could all pull out totally to get what we want. And if we realize, oh, as soon as I'm doing that, I'm violating the Bible itself, then I think we can all back off and take a better view of it.

So we've talked about this a little bit already, but what are. And Heather, you as a wife, I feel like you definitely have a perspective that we don't have in a lot of. This is really the theme of this is that difference between men and women and our understanding of sex and how it plays out in our life. But what are some legitimate reasons you guys have both seen or had for not having sex?

So some that just are no brainers are illness, injury, sleep deprivation.

Ninety months pregnant.

Okay, nine months pregnant. Yeah. Just after having a baby. That's six to eight. Yeah.

That's medical.

I know, and that's important. Yeah. But even when you look at, oh, a woman on her period, you know, and that's biblical.

Wow.

I know, just throwing it out there. But really, sleep deprivation, that one is huge. I mean, it's like sometimes that is going to be a make or break when it comes to whether or not you're going to have great sex or whether you're going to have disappointing sex. And so that I think could be a really good reason. Again, looking at the way that you communicate. That is another huge, huge thing in a marriage.

Okay, I have another spur of the moment question. Does every sexual experience between a husband and wife need to be like Mind blowing. Like, we crushed it, knocked it out of the park. Or is it okay that sometimes it's not that way? Like, I think that's all. That's a question. A lot of people who are engaged, who are single, and the people who are married, too, is like, is it always gonna be this, like, does it need to keep getting better every single year or is it just not the same every time?

I don't understand the question. No, I'm just kidding.

She is quoting Mr. And Mrs. Smith right now.

So that is a great question. And again, that's going to depend on what's going on in your world. Because one of the things too, I mean, you can be having great sex in your marriage and then something happens that causes stress in your marriage. And, man, it's going to hit your sex life like nothing else. And you're going to think, okay, what am I doing wrong? I'm doing all the same things. I don't seem to be able to connect. What is this? And it's stress. I mean, stress is totally a sex killer. But. But it's just one of those things that, again, you have to not take it just for the way that sex is playing out in your relationship. But, okay, what. What's going on in my world, what's going on in their world? What else could be a variable that's playing a role in our ability to connect?

I think we have to be aware of our expectations because I think if we go into it with that expectation of it's always gotta be getting bigger and better and greater. And like, no human couple can live up to that. I mean, sooner or later you're gonna hit a ceiling of, you know, we're not able to always make it bigger and better. But that's really the beauty of how God designed our brain to work. That in a committed, monogamous relationship where there's healthy intimacy, I believe we can actually have, you might call it a lesser experience or a very normal experience, but receive the same kind of pleasure. Hit. The other thing that this kind of exposes is if we've become focused on our own experience. Again, we're misusing the purpose of sex. Because sex in a marriage is meant to be about connection and bonding and fun in mutuality. And usually when you ask that kind of question, Trevor or I hear other people do what they're intending is for me first. Is it getting better and better for me, it's like, well, that's kind of the wrong purpose or outcome of sex. Going back to the original question, of when is it okay to say no? I think in the nature of what we deal with, if someone's desire for sex is fueled by their addiction and because they've been watching porn and now they want an outlet, like, that's not healthy. If it's just all about what we said earlier, just kind of a magical way to fix the relationship and ignore our problems, it may actually be better to withhold for a while and deal with the situation rather than diving in and hoping sex will fix it. So. And I think another reason for no is if a person doesn't feel like they trust you right now, if there's some trust issues. Sex and intimacy are really hard to engage in. If there's some trust issues, and that, I hope for listeners underscore, explores why it is so important we deal with our sexual baggage. Because nothing creates trust issues in a marriage faster than our sexual brokenness and the struggles we have. So we've got to deal with those things so that there's a healthy level of trust that can lead into intimacy.

And then anybody who's in that situation. There's an episode that we recorded. It's episode 57. We recorded it with Bob and Rebecca Vandermeer, and the episode is Sex during Recovery. So if you're in that situation and wanting some more insight on that, feel free to go back and listen to that episode.

So what does. I mean, we kind of talked about the cautions and the scripture there and the. No, on the flip side of it, what does a healthy conversation around sex and marriage look like?

So this one is really hard for people until they figure it out, and then it becomes so freeing.

Help us figure it out then.

Okay, so it's one of the things, too, that you think, okay, I don't know if I can be honest and open and vulnerable in what I want or what I expect for sex to be. But yet, at the same time, once you go there with your spouse and you have these really great conversations, it really is so freeing, and it really talk about taking sex to the next level. It is really, really empowering, and it can be really challenging at the same time. And it might take a little bit of time, but having those conversations is really, really important. One of the things that we talked about at the last Pure Desire women's conference was we were talking about our sexuality and sex. And what does that look like? And of course, this is all women. And so we can talk about the, you know, seven erogenous zones that women have. And, you know, and then we Talked about that communication, you know, and so many women came up to me after and said, how do I start that conversation? And you start it by simply saying, did you know? You tell your husband, did you know that women have seven erogenous zones? I didn't know that, but I was wondering if you'd like to explore that with me. I mean, what guy wouldn't love that? Exactly. But it's women also. I mean, I encourage women all the time that you need to understand your body, you need to understand what you like and how you feel about things so that then you can communicate to your husband. Because I think that a lot of guys are going to be all on board with trying to figure it out together.

And that's the thing. The older that I've gotten, the more healthy I've gotten sexually. That is where it's at. It's not as much about me. There are definitely selfish pockets, of course, But I think that the more that I have grown in my recovery and in my sexual health, the more I want to be pleasing to my wife. I want her to enjoy it just as much as I do. I mean, more actually. And so for sure, if that was a conversation, I mean, I don't know, in my friend zone, I know zero husbands that would be like, no, I don't want to do that. I think, I think in the church, and this is definitely my experience, I grew up, like, sex was like a no, no conversation. And so it's interesting because you go from hearing that from your family and from the church and from your friend group, and then you are exposed to pornography, which is like the polar opposite. And then you get married and you realize it's actually gotta be somewhere in the middle. Like, communication has to happen. It's not gonna be like porn because that is not sex. That is something completely different. But then it's also not this. You have to keep this, like, tight lipped, no conversation. Like you're really quiet while you're having sex kind of thing. Like, it just is a really interesting dynamic. And so I feel like for me, I was set up in a lot of ways. Some of it is definitely my own doing. I was set up for failure when I walked into marriage because I was expecting sex to be kind of both. And. And it's really not. And so I. I like what you're saying, Heather. It's the idea of just have the conversation, just start the conversation and it's gonna be super awkward. It's like the first time when you get married, the first time You've had sex, it's gonna be weird. It's not gonna be exactly what you thought, but you just have to kind of enjoy the process as you're going through it. I think the same thing. I'm just. I'm finding it's weird and it's uncomfortable, but having those conversations, what I'm hearing you say is super important, because that's how you start, is you just start.

I think I've found, too, that it can be healthy in conversations to not be trying to have them right around the time of having sex. Because that pressure of, like, oh, because he wants sex, that's why he's bringing it up. Or she wants to have these things tried, and so now she's bringing it up. So at a time when there's no expectation that we're going to even have sex, right now, obviously, when your kids aren't around and your privacy to talk.

I'm writing that down right now, by the way.

Bring up conversations of, hey, what. What do you enjoy? What are things that you like? What are things that I haven't done that you wish I would or that I did one time a year ago and forgot about and you'd like me to do again? And at a time when you can think and talk and process, and then at the end, you don't go have sex immediately. I mean, for some people, that might work, but I think in my relationship, for my wife, that always creates this pressure situation. Like, okay, now we got to go do all these things. And that might work for you. That's great. But I just. I think when there's no pressure in the moment to go anywhere with it other than we're just talking about, we're connecting, that actually can create some better dialogue and back and forth.

Yeah. And I think that, too, for women that. I don't know why a lot of women struggle with having a voice in the bedroom. But, man, if your husband is doing things that you like, vocalize that. Tell him. Those are things that, again, will make your sex life so much better.

Okay, so we've talked a lot about sexual health, obviously, and we've talked through some practical things. I think the big question really, for me is how. What are ways that we can improve? Obviously, have sex more is an easy answer. That's not what I'm looking for. What are ways we can improve the health of our sex life and our marriage?

So I think that that's a great question. And really just getting to a point in your relationship where you feel like, you know, what we have good sex. Even if you already have good sex. But what would it look like to have better sex? I think that that is an important thing to evaluate and sometimes it starts with simple things like minimizing stress. And I know that that seems kind of odd. Nick, you mentioned earlier about how men, looking at the motivation that men, it's easier for them to want sex, but then for women, you know, it might, they might want this emotional connection instead. But you know, a lot of women are not going to want sex when they still have a bunch of things still left on their list like laundry to fold or dishes to do or you know, even some things that have to do with the kids. And so if, if guys can recognize that and, and come at it like, you know, I thought that sex might be a really good idea tonight. So, you know, what can I do to help you? Check things off your list or how can I help you? You know, so that she then feels like you're trying to have an emotional connection with her first before you're trying to have a sexual connection. Sometimes those things are a lot easier and simple, simple things for a couple to do.

Yeah, I think of the importance of a regular date night, you know, and whether or not that leads to sex on that night. It's just that value of building into your relationship, showing value to one another both with your time and your energy to go out and be a couple. And the way that creates a byproduct of sexual intimacy because you're regularly connecting outside of the home and the routine. So don't neglect that because it has positive benefits. I believe. And the other thing that if you'd have told me as a 22 year old newly married guy, I would ever be saying this, I would have been like, come on. But I find having a plan is really important because we give this ideal or get this ideal from culture that sex is just always spontaneous and you're in the mood. And so it happens. But like when you've got jobs and kids and sports and a house and like it's, it's really difficult to be quote unquote, spontaneous and in the mood. But if you're able to say like, so for me I'm learning, it's a long slow process, but learning, like if I am feeling a desire to connect with my wife in that way, it's best not to wait till 10pm to then be like, hey, you know, here we go, right? But maybe in an appropriate way during the day to just say, hey, you know, I'm Finding myself really drawn to you. I'm hopeful for sex. And, you know, do you think it'll happen at night? And my wife's a processor, so she can think about it and she might find she starts to plan on it and kind of prepare and think through and what will that look like? And getting kids to bed and having this done, or it may not even be the right night. And that's great. But now to say, you know, and that can show some sensitivity on my part if I'm like, hey, I know we're both having kind of a long, stressful day, but it seems like tomorrow night we don't have a whole lot going on. And what do you think about some couple time and maybe having sex together? Well, now we're making a plan that then is more likely to happen. And again, a plan isn't a promise or a guarantee, so I have to be careful of that. It's like, well, there was a plan and that's a promise.

What happened?

No one promised life happens. But it does create more space in our life for that to be done in a meaningful way and not just believe it always needs to be spontaneous and we're in the mood. So like I said, those are things I'm learning and working on myself, but I'm finding really make a difference in our relationship.

And that's what porn taught me. Is that the novelty of it? Right. It basically trained my brain to assume that sex was like, when I wanted it, how I wanted it. And so I think that that in a lot of ways, that's what deters and had for a long time, deterred me from the planning. It's like, well, that's not what I see in the movies, and that's not what porn is like. The woman pursues the man, you know, all this different stuff. And so I think that in a lot of ways, especially in recovery, being able to identify those unhealthy truths, I guess, or they're really not truths. We believe that they are, but they're lies about what it is. Identifying those and then starting to reframe into what's true and what's real.

Yeah.

And I mean, this is all good. I'm taking notes over here, so this is great.

So kind of a unique question here to just think about that in marriage, it's two people, and we may be limited in our experience. We might not have a whole lot of context to have some of these conversations. So what role should other people have in helping us develop a healthy sex life in marriage?

So this is a great question, because so much of what we do at Pure Desire is that we teach people the value of community and how we need. In recovery, we need other people. But you know what? In life, we need other people. And so this, you know, your sex life is another area where you might need some input from other people, but something to just keep in mind a couple things. First off is ask your spouse. Have a conversation with your spouse first about if you. And really just tell your spouse your motivation. You know, that I'm just curious what's out there, what other, you know, men or women do in this area. And so would it be okay with you if I talked with this person? And be specific who you're going to talk about or talk with. You don't have to give a lot of details of your relationship. But. But sometimes I think that people, for whatever reason, what they were grown up with or what they've seen in porn, that they don't know what normal is, you know, or they don't know what. What, you know, couples should do or, you know, I can't tell you the amount of women that I've come that I've talked to at the conferences. And they say, I feel so much shame every time I have sex with my husband. And I think that that's so sad, you know, and so if we can get to a place where we can have a couple, you know, one or two close, trusted friends or mentors that we can go to and we can have these conversations with them, that's awesome. But again, talk to your spouse. Make sure that they feel that it's a safe person as well and that they know your motivation. And you know what I mean? I think that that's a huge part with this piece of it.

Well, it's just so funny to me because pretty much all other pieces or areas of life, we're okay including other people into our development or our growth. But when it comes to this, it's like, oh, no, no, no. You have to figure this out on your own. You know, it's basically like, in some ways it's playful, right? It's just like, go have fun and learn and that's okay. But then when it gets to a point where you're at a sticking point and you don't know, you know, really how to grow or how to basically how to improve your sex life or your connection, then it's like, well, everyone told me that this is just something we have to figure out, and then that can just really. That develop really unhealthy habits and there's no communication. And so for me, it's similar to anything else in life that I allow other people to see, speak in. And what I found is that helps me develop and grow in those areas. And not only because I think that a lot of this too, and I've learned this recently where I was having some conversations and I've got some friends who sex is like once a month. And they are good with it, they enjoy it, it's a good pace. And for me, when I first heard that, I was like, what?

They need intervention?

What is happening? But that was like in unhealth, I was basically had these expectations of what it should be. And so finding that groove and understanding, understanding what's right for you guys comes with having conversation and learning that there are different ways and different seasons and different approaches to sex in relationship, in marriage. And so for me, that was helpful because it helped me reframe it a little bit. Gave me a new paradigm that it doesn't have to be a certain number. It's more about the quality and the connection that's there. And that couldn't have happened if I wouldn't have asked really at that point. It was a scary question to ask. But asking that question helped me to really reframe some things.

Yeah, and I think we need to make sure we're going to healthy sources. I mean, if we're turning to pornography or Cosmo magazine or a lot of things that are out there that are going to portray a very unrealistic, worldly driven. And by worldly I don't mean like the world is a negative, but I would say just really self focused. How do I create more pleasure for me and that there are really reliable, trusted Christian sources you can go to to get a good book or listen to a talk, a podcast radio show by other Christian speakers that could really provide some input on this. And then I think too about the value of us as parents as we're listening and learning and getting healthy in our sex life, to be willing to start having those conversations with our kids now, not when they're super young, but as you're starting to have older teens and college age and they're looking at relationships and marriage like they should be hearing from you about things like positions and frequency and just having, not that you have to be the answer man or answer mom, but to have some honest, open conversations so that they feel like, oh, this is a real safe conversation and I can disciple my children. You know, that's really. If you look at Jewish history. Not only did the community have a role in young men and women getting married, but the parents role in discipling their kids sexually was really, really prevalent. So I, I find that ironic that in a culture that was far less sexual than ours, they were far more involved in the life of their kids and their relational sexual development versus ours, where we're the opposite. Far more sexual in our culture, but much more quiet in relationship with our kids. So I, I think as you're becoming healthy to just remember that needs to translate into having some of these conversations at appropriate times in ways with your older kids so that you hopefully bless them with a better starting point than most of us had because we did get the. Well, good luck. Go figure it out. And then it's kind of trial and error and a lot of pain and frustration versus could we implore into our kids some principles and ideas just like we're talking about today that might give them a healthier starting point and really bless them for a lifetime of marriage?

Yeah, this was great. This was a better conversation. I thought it would be like, I thought it was gonna be awesome. But this is cool because I think that there are so many people in the world who want to have this conversation but don't know how to start it. And so I'm thankful to be sitting at the table with people who are willing to have that conversation. And yeah, I just think that one thing that just thematically through this episode has been communication is really important. Talking about it not just with your spouse, but with other people and having this be a part of. Part of the culture and what we communicate about. And I love Nick, that you're talking about kids because I think that's really important, the idea of changing the culture now so that our kids don't have to go into marriage thinking I have no idea what's going on. I don't know who to talk to. So this was. This was awesome. Thank you both for your time. Appreciate it.

Yeah, my pleasure.

Yeah, good stuff. Thanks you guys.

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