105 – Soul Ties

Foreign.

You're listening to the Pure Desire Podcast, your safe place to find hope, healing, and freedom from sexual addiction, betrayal, and relationship issues. Hello. Hello. I am your host, Trevor Windsor, and you are listening to episode 105 of the Pure Desire Podcast. I am here with my co host, as always, Nick Stumbo from four.

You know, we recently had the Pure Desire golf tournament. And you know, sadly, I heard that word quite a bit from my group after I would swing. Oh, no, I didn't get to say it much myself, but you know what kind of day you're having when that word is echoing frequently from your group, so. But it does bring up a question. Do you know why we yell 4 it? I was just thinking about it. I don't know.

It's a good question. I don't know either. I don't. I'm sure that there's someone. Please, listener, if you're listening, someone, send in.

Because I assume it's not F o u R that we yell F o R E. That's right.

Yeah.

But I don't know what that means. Why don't we say heads, watch out. I don't know.

I don't know. There's a simplicity to just four yelling that. So, yeah, that was a great time. We had a great time at the golf tournament. I feel bad for everyone who heard that word a lot. We did have a great time. But we appreciate everybody that came out to that, everybody that came in support of the ministry. We're hopeful to do it again soon, so. Well, listen, you listener. Today we are talking about a pretty interesting topic. We sat down with one of our founders, Diane Roberts, and talked about Soul Ties.

Yeah. And I think this topic is one of those things that can kind of be more subtle. It can be playing off in the background of our lives or our thinking. And we may not realize what a significant impact it's having in our lives and in our current relationship, particularly if we're married. And so I hope that's what a lot of our listeners get out of today, is really recognizing soul Ties and seeing that it's not just something that needs to disappear into the background, but something we need to take time and deal with.

Yeah, absolutely. We really enjoyed our time with Diane. So please strap in. Ready for this episode. Enjoy it. Diane, thanks for being here. We're really excited you're here this morning.

Thank you. It's exciting to talk about this topic.

Yes. So the topic we are talking about today is Soul Ties. Now, first off, we're just gonna start with this. I did not grow up in a culture where soul ties was language that was used. And I think that there are a lot of people that listen to our podcast that may be in the same position where soul ties sounds. I think sometimes you hear that language and you think, oh, that's just something that charismatic churches believe in, or something like that. And so really what we want to do is really define it. So please, even for me, a little bit, will you define. Define what a soul tie is?

Okay, I'm going to start by just sharing. It's true that many churches do not understand what soul ties are. I've been fortunate enough to be raised in a church where for the last 30 years, I've ministered in this area. And there are a lot of churches now who have a healing emphasis. They're not necessarily charismatic, but they have a healing emphasis where they talk about inner prayer. And so I think it's becoming more of a common knowledge. And one of the things I think it's helpful to divine soul ties in light of what scripture says, because no place in Scripture will you find the word soul ties. It's like the word Trinity. No place in scripture do you find the word Trinity. The early church coined that word to define the one God with three that manifests itself in three persons. And so we find evidence of the Trinity through scripture. I think a great example would be Luke, chapter three, where you see all three. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. You see Jesus being baptized in the River Jordan, right? So he is submitting. He's actually walking out what his calling is. He's submitting to the Father. You hear the heavens open. Scripture says, the heavens open up, and that God says, this is my beloved Son. And as Jesus is coming out of the water, the dove, which represents the Holy Spirit comes upon him, and he's filled with the Holy Spirit. So that's one scripture that gives evidence to the Trinity, but doesn't name the Trinity. Can you come up with some other scriptures that indicate that the Trinity is.

Putting us on the spot? Nick just put us on the spot.

Yeah. We didn't know there was going to be a theology quiz this morning.

It's a good thing. It's a good thing we've gone to some seminary. You have a seminary degree, so she's putting it to the test.

Well, Diane took probably the most common one. I know there are a number of Paul's letters, and I don't have a specific reference in front of me, but a number of his letters were in his benediction. Or his closing, he will reference all three persons of the Trinity, which, if it doesn't exist, it would be a very unique way for him to end. But he'll say, you know, may the love of God and the grace of Christ and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all so clear that even from the very beginning, the early church saw God as existing in those three persons, completely united in one, and yet different. And so I think it's kind of like that idea of soul ties, that there's evidence, there's our experience that says there is something here. Even though we don't see it named in the Bible, we can make it a major component of what we understand and believe.

Okay, I think of the scripture too, where Jesus says, if you've seen me, you've seen the Father. So they're the same, but they're different. And again, it's evidenced in Scripture. So what I wanted to do this morning is kind of take you through the Scripture. And how did soul ties begin? It began in Genesis. From the very beginning. We see the evidence. Again, it's not named, but we see the evidence of soul ties. And in Genesis 1:27, it says, Let us. The triune. God is saying, let us make man in our. Excuse me, in our image, male and female. And there's something mystical about making us male and female. I like to hold up pink and blue as kind of a representation of that male and femaleness. So blue alone does not represent the image of God. There's something powerful about when husband and wife come together. And Genesis 2:24 continues that thought. And it says, Paul says, you know, well, first in Genesis 2:24, it's referenced that to become one flesh, that this is a one flesh relationship. And then Paul emphasizes. Emphasizes that in Ephesians 5:31, where he actually quotes Genesis 2 and says, for this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and join to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh. And he says, he goes on to say, this is a mystery. And he says, and I'm talking about Christ and the church. So I think this concept of soul ties is really important because the enemy hates the image of God. And if husband and wife reflect that image of God, then what we're doing is we're making Satan really angry. So he will pervert it. He will try to create confusion within a marriage and even separation. Right. And so it's. It's a real spiritual battle, not just something that is joined together physically. And one of the things I do with my Groups with my women groups or in seminars is I actually take two pieces of paper that have been glued together and then I pull them apart. And to me, this is the best representation of soul ties, because when you're not married and you have sex, there is a bonding, there is a joining together. And then because it's not a permanent relationship, some of the pink is on the blue and some of the blue is on the pink. So there's something about a bonding that's taken place. How do we get rid of that bonding? And we're going to discuss this as we go through.

Yeah. So what we're talking about with Soul Ties, Diane. And by the way, thank you for bringing an illustration. I think you're the first guest to bring a visual to the podcast. Yeah.

Very pastoral of you.

For those who are only listening to this podcast, you'll hopefully find a little bit of the video where you can see what she has just illustrated there because I think it's a powerful metaphor. And in Soul Ties, what we're saying is essentially there's the healthy side that a soul tie is what was intended to happen between husband and wife. Where there's bonding, there's connection, there's oneness that comes because of our union. And then in an unhealthy way, obviously, that that soul tie is non discriminatory. Meaning that if we choose to have that same level of bonding and connection with a person outside of marriage, and then that is not in a context of the commitment of a marriage, there's a breaking of that and the impact it has on us. Which kind of makes me think about a follow up question. Do soul ties only occur when you've had a sexual relationship with someone? Or would it be possible to have soul ties to someone that you had dated or only been really close to? What do you think about that?

That's an interesting question. I think what we found especially in counseling as we counsel men and women who have love addiction, maybe there's been no sexual contact, but there's been an enmeshment emotionally. And so this can also impact you. And there can be a sense of soul ties that need to be broken because of this is always on your mind. You can't focus on your spouse because you've had this inappropriate contact with another person.

Yeah, well, we've talked about that a lot too, that the chemical bonding is what you're talking about in the brain. That when you're, when you have a sexual release, there is a bonding there in your brain. So there is maybe, maybe And I mean, you're talking about that enmeshment that we can have those ties, but the sexual one seems to be unique.

Yeah, well, like in so many topics, as human beings, we're not just a body or we're not just a spirit. We're complex, and we are all those things in unity. And so when we're physically bonded with someone, there is a level of emotional bonding and even spiritual. And even if a person sees themselves as being non religious, I think most people recognize there's a spiritual or a soul quality to our life, that when we get enmeshed or connected to someone, there's that bonding and the question of what happens if that's not, again, within the context of a healthy, safe marriage. So, Diana, you've gotten into it a little bit, but how would someone recognize if they have a soul tie to someone, particularly outside of their marriage relationship?

Sometimes it's so subconscious that it's not recognizable. I found this example and I used it in behind the Mask, which is written for teen women and college age women. And I think it's a great example how soul ties can affect you far beyond the experience of having sex outside of marriage. And it's a story about Jordi, who is 33 years old. Listen to what she says. The hardest breakup I ever had was the first person I had sex with. Fifteen years later, I still don't think I'm over him. I still dream about him and think about him and compare him to every guy since I'm married now, and I feel like it's a threesome in my heart.

Wow.

It's like he still is a part of me and I still can't get over him. So I think when you have those feelings that remember, your limbic system captures experiences. And when you have those experiences, God says we have to renew our mind. And part of the renewing of the mind is dealing with those soul ties. And you brought up an interesting statement about the brain. And as you've talked about in previous segments, you know, the chemical that women have, in other words, when they're really thinking about the next that person they want to be with and everything, oxytocin is released in the brain, and that's that desire to bond. And so you have those chemical chemicals going on in women, and then in men, you have testosterone and vasopressin, which helps them to feel territorial and protective. And so you've got a lot of chemicals going on that reinforce some of those emotional things that you're feeling. And as I said, there can be emotional ties that need to be broken, too, not just physical ties.

So, Diane, I think of that illustration you just gave that someone might listen to it and say, oh, well, I never think of past boyfriends. I'm never thinking about a past girlfriend, so I must not have soul ties. What would you say to a person that, you know, has maybe in their history been enmeshed with a lot of people, been sexually active with people, but says, oh, it doesn't affect me because I don't think about them? Would you encourage them to consider that they may still have soul ties to those people, people from their past?

Absolutely. And as we get into the scriptures, I think we'll understand how that can actually be a barrier from real, for real intimacy. So many of the couples that we counsel say, you know, it's really hard to be intimate, and they don't even realize that this could be a component to the lack of intimacy. So one of the things that will help us to understand soul ties a little bit better is as we look at 1st Corinthians 15, 6, 15. And again, all of this is in our workbook. So that's why I'm so thankful that we've kind of unpacked that in the workbooks. But this will help make it a little more clear. But the power of soul ties is summed up in First Corinthians, chapter 6. And listen to what it says. This is Paul speaking. Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ himself? Shall I then take the member of Christ and unify it with a prostitute? Never. Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body or him in body? So any infidelity, you're connecting yourself. And he goes on to quote the scripture that we've already stated, because Scripture says that the two shall become one flesh, but he who unites himself with the Lord is one with him in spirit. So what this says to me is that not only can it disrupt the intimacy that we have with our spouse, but can it can disrupt that intimacy with God? Because there's still. Until we renounce this, there's still that sense of something being attached to us because of the bonding that takes place. And I think a powerful example of that. And I want to kind of take you through the steps. How do we get rid of these soul ties? And the first thing I have women do is when I'm working with women, we help couples, too. But I'll have them outline, you know, who do I need to break these soul ties with. And the reason being that we'll take these steps is that in First Corinthians 16, it goes on to say, 6, 16, 18, it says, flee from sexual immorality. All sin. All other sins a man commits outside his body, but through that. But he who sins sexually sins against his own body. So as we think about breaking the power of soul ties, we have to say, okay, who am I breaking these soul ties with? And I remember one of the first times that I prayed with a woman, I said, okay, I want you to list the people that we're going to break soul ties with. And she looked at me with a lot of shame, and she said, diane, I was part of a commune. I had sex with so many men, I can't even begin to share with you all of those men that I have to break soul ties with. So I said, well, God is bigger than a commune. And so I said, so we're just going to take all those men and we're going to pray this prayer over all those men. And literally, as we began to pray, I saw this big sheet of paper, and I saw a column of men. And, you know, Facebook wasn't there then, but it was like a silhouette that you see when people don't put their pictures out there. You see kind of a vague silhouette. And so I saw all these silhouettes on one side, and then I saw her on the other side of that page. And what I saw was a line, like a fishing line with a hook coming from each of those men to her. And as we began to pray and cut the power of those soul ties, literally, it was like I saw this big pair of scissors, so it had to come from heaven, because they were giant. And the Lord just started cutting every single one of those lines. And I saw him taking out the hooks.

Yeah.

And it was. I think the reason the Lord gave me that picture was she really needed to know that he was taking care of it, that he was big enough.

Yeah.

To take care of a situation like that.

I think we want to get to those steps in just a minute here, kind of the healing side. But before we go into the how to break soul ties, let's talk a little more. I think we're talking here about why it's important to address these things, and for some who are listening, that this is new to them. I. I hope what they're catching is how we were made for intimacy. We were made for, as we talk about it, pure desire. We were made to be fully known and fully loved and and there's a real sense in which if that bonding has occurred with other people that are no longer in our lives, we will be guarded in our intimacy. We will be kind of closed off from the ability to be fully known in a marriage relationship. And so we want to just maybe take seriously the impact that has in our lives. And we've talked a lot about some scripture here in the spiritual side. But one of the things Trevor kind of mentioned a minute ago, I want to go back to about the physical impact. So is this only happening in our souls and spiritual kind of part of our life? Or what is the impact physically in the brain, in our bodies that soul ties have on us?

Okay, I already shared that. The chemicals affect us. And I think when we think about the limbic system, remember, it highlights experiences. So in order to deal with. And the limbic system is your heart, your will, your emotions, the place you're able to put brakes on so God doesn't come down and take out our brain and give us a new one. That would be nice. Then we wouldn't have all those memories. We wouldn't have to deal with all of those things in the past. But what he does is he says in Romans 12:2, don't be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of the mind. So by acknowledging these soul ties, you know, I think there can be health in our physical well being. But also as we go through this, we want to have a new experience, because that's the only way the limbic system is reprogrammed, is through new experiences. And I think it's, you know, we have this in all our materials, even in the materials for those that have been betrayed. And what we found in counseling, and I'm sure you found it in small groups, groups too, is that as women go through this information about soul ties, they realize, oh my gosh, well, I was promiscuous when I was single. I don't have that problem now. But they start seeing that there might be something interrupting the intimacy that I want with my husband. And some women who have been sexually abused, there are unintentional soul ties. They didn't do anything to create those.

Which will affect every relationship they have for the rest of their lives.

Exactly.

Yeah.

Yeah. So I think for those women that have been abused or men who have been sexually abused, that going through these steps, you would change it a little bit because you're not the. You were perpetrated upon. Sure, you're the victim. But to say, I am going to Disconnect from this person. I am going to break the power of those soul ties because I want to be fully intimate with my spouse. So I think it has a lot of ramifications, both physically, mentally, emotionally, and again, we don't want to just read a quick prayer or take quick steps. We want to really think about how have soul ties, how have extramarital affairs or promiscuity or even abuse affected me and affected my intimacy that God created me to really enjoy.

Yeah, yeah. Well, we've talked about it a lot. When it comes to viewing pornography, how it affects the brain, it creates these pathways that our thoughts and emotions travel down. And because those pathways exist, to have the kind of authentic relationship we want with our spouse is more difficult, is challenged. And same thing. What I hear you saying with soul ties, Diane, is that there's an actual impact on the brain. There are ways of thinking, there are emotions we're experiencing that. That actually can detract from or pull us away from the kind of relationship we want to have in a marriage. And so, yes, we're dealing with the spiritual side, the soul side, but also the ways of thinking how our brain is behaving. And if we want to have health, we're going to have to address those things. And not. It's not just about, well, I don't contact them anymore, but doing some deeper soul work to really find the kind of health and freedom that we're looking for.

Exactly.

So let's go back to then, where you kind of started going with how we really deal with these soul ties. And you talked about the lady that you were working with and started praying and that beautiful illustration for me, let's kind of keep fleshing that out a little bit more. I think somebody listening, and I know even me sitting here right now, is it just that I need to sit down and pray and get some sort of, you know, vision from the Lord or visual and have somebody walk me through that, like, practically, what does that look like? Can I just do it by myself? Does someone need to be involved? That sort of thing?

That's great. I'm going to give a few suggestions. But the basics. And you brought up a good point that I want to get back to. But the basics are that. And again, in our materials, there are four areas that need to be taken care of. Four steps, important steps before there's even a prayer. And those four steps. First, asking for forgiveness because I've sinned against God. Now, this could apply to any scripture. Yeah. I mean, any sin, because I had we all sin and fall short. So that's the first thing I have to do, is recognize, okay, I've sinned against God because he has put out the parameters that help will help me walk in health. And when I go counter to that, then it's really important that I acknowledge that. But the other steps are different. And again, you know, many times you'll hear a pastor say, well, all sin is sin, and it's all the same. Well, the scripture, though, when it says, but I've sinned against my body, all other sin is outside the body.

It's unique.

So it is unique in that it's not. I don't want to make it a more shaming issue, but to recognize that something mystical has taken place. Because, you know, Paul says there's a mystery here that it's hard to understand, but somehow there's that bonding that's taken place. So the second step would be to ask for forgiveness for sinning against my own body. Because if I have sinned with another person, I see I've done something to.

My body, the blue and the pink. Right.

And so I want to acknowledge that. And that goes back to the Scripture, 1st Corinthians 6:18. The third step would be the fact that if I've sinned against my own body, I've sinned against somebody else's body. So I need to acknowledge that, reconcile.

That relationship, if possible.

Most. You can't, because at least most of our clients, this was way in their teen years. We're counseling them in their 30s and 40s.

Sure.

They have no relationship.

So is it then reaching out to some degree and apologizing, asking for forgiveness? Is it writing a letter to that person, like, what does that look like?

We've had some clients do that, that realized that, especially if there were family relationships and they were inappropriate, sometimes that can be another step. But I think the first step is taking care of me and my personal sin and how I'm going to respond. So. But that's a good statement to think about. Do I need to reach out if I still know that person? And sometimes if it's been in a marriage relationship and the wife will say, I don't want you ever getting in touch with that other person. So you have to be.

Yeah, that's understandable.

But sometimes, if they both know the person, sometimes the wife says, we need to go together.

Yeah, Yeah. I think it's an area you need to be discerning, because if it is someone from your past you haven't contacted in a long Time opening that door, even for the right reason of maybe offering an apology or asking forgiveness may open a door to a relationship or something unhealthy that isn't needed. So I think what you're talking about, Diane, it really does start with our recognition before God of what we've done and how it's harmed others and dealing with that with Him. And then if appropriate, and I would say with the advice or counsel of a mentor or group members or spouse that says, I think here's an area where it would be appropriate to seek that person's forgiveness, then it may be appropriate. But what I hear you saying is really the work is for us just to recognize these things and bring them to the Lord and ask for his help in removing them from our life.

Yeah. And realizing the dynamics. It's like it's not just a flat surface of, okay, I ask for forgiveness for this. I've implicated my body, somebody else's body. And the fourth step is asking forgiveness from your spouse. Because even, even if it was a long time ago and now you're married, it's disrupted your intimacy in some way.

Or form, whether you see it or not.

Yeah. And so to acknowledge that. And again, that's why we put it, the information in the spouse's material, because they need to know that this is far reaching. And as I mentioned, many of the women that go through this realize, oh, my gosh, I need to deal with soul ties, too. So, you know, those would be the four steps. And for even singles, I think it's important, even though they're not married, to be prepared when they do get married. Because I think it's important that your spouse knows. They don't have to know the details of your past, but they need to know if there's been infidelity. I need to apologize to you because I brought this into the marriage and I'm wanting to renounce it and break soul ties. Or I already have. But I want you to know that I want to be just. My body is for you and no one else. So we're starting with a clean sheet for singles.

Yeah. So talk a little bit more about the role of the spouse, because I'm guessing that for some listeners as they hear this, they're thinking, well, I have a past, he has a past, or she has a past. And we kind of both know that. But it's like, what's the point of dredging that up? Or like, we, we just left that in the past and she doesn't need to know, or he doesn't need to know. So what's the role of the spous in breaking soul ties or in their awareness? Particularly if someone feels like, that's all my past stuff, and wouldn't it be better just to leave it in the past?

I think you'd be surprised at how many women that I've counseled said, I knew that he was sexual with other women. But sometimes I feel like there's more in bed than just the two of us. So it's that impact that they're feeling or sensing and really wanting that deep intimacy. It's really important to take these steps. And I love the prayer. It's in the seven pillars for men. And it says, father, you've heard my confession, asking for forgiveness in these four areas. Thank you. That you forgive my sin. You've cleansed me from all unrighteousness because of the blood of Christ and my repentance. And now I ask that you break sexual, emotional, and physical soul ties. And I love this part. I declare the enemy no longer has a hook in me. And that and this part, even if there's just emotional connection, I love this. It says, jesus, I release my heart tie to that person. In other words, whatever kind of connection I've had, I release it to that person so it no longer is attached to me. I want to be free from that. And thank you for the freedom and the cleansing. So that's kind of a. Just a generic prayer that you can pray or you can personalize it. But one of the things you said, how can you make it real? And this is a suggestion that we came up with a number of years ago for couples who are really struggling with this and want kind of a clean slate. And I think about the sacraments when, you know, our church takes communion once a month. And it's a representation of something that's happened in the spirit and what God has done for us. So you actually take the bread and the wine as a representation. So what we recommend to couples is that they get a bowl of water, they put some red food coloring in, and they get in the shower together and begin to wash each other with this and even put some of that water. You know, we've mentioned that the brain is affected. So even to, say, God, you even cover the way I think and what's happened to my mind by your blood. And so it can be kind of a new beginning for couples as. And you know, the scripture, I think about, and it talks about husbands doing this, but I think we can do it with each other. Is in Ephesians, chapter 5, where it says, husbands, sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of the water by the word. So literally what you're doing is washing each other. And it becomes more than just a ritual of saying these things. And I think even a single person can do that. You know, they can get in the shower and just cleanse themselves and God, would you renew my mind? I'm working with you on that, but would you cleanse and renew my.

I think, I think one of the things, too, because again, like, you know, you think of the different churches and denominations and the types of theology or experiential stuff that people have in their church and really in their upbringing. And for me, I know a few years ago that would have weirded me out. Like, that experience would have just been like, what are we doing?

Like, I don't understand.

But I think what you're getting at, and we talked about it a little bit earlier, is that limbically, because it's experiential, you're doing something that ties the truth to an experience. Maybe you already have had that prayer, and spiritually there are those. Those soul ties are being cut. But I think that whatever it may be, whether it is writing a letter or having conversations about it, or doing something that maybe seems ritualistic and maybe odd, but something that embodies physically and experientially what is happening in my soul, that's going to be helpful for me. And so I just am thinking of our listeners, you know, and then. And also our viewers. If you, if you're seeing this or listening to this and thinking, gosh, that's so weird, I would never do something like that, understand the truth behind it is something experiential being tied to what's happening spiritually and how powerful that can be.

Yeah, I think there's any number of things that someone could do. I mean, it could even be as simple as pouring water over one another's hands and the washing and the cleansing, but just something that does physically, in a very practical way, connect those things to the. This is the reality of what's been enacted in my life in the spiritual, because of how I've really claimed Christ's freedom and forgiveness over this area. As I think about what you're saying on all these practical things, though, Diane, I do wonder, what would you say to the person who feels like, I've prayed this prayer, I've done as best as I can in my soul to ask for God's forgiveness and renounce those soul ties? But I find that when it comes to intimacy with my spouse, there are still those old images that pop into my mind or old relationships or that. And they might say, I feel like I can't help it. I'm not looking for that. It's just. It's part of my sexual experience that I don't know what to do with. Do you have any direction or guidance for how could they deal with those images or those experiences that are still maybe there, that get triggered when they go to have intimacy and sexual relationships within their marriage?

I think it's important, you know, all new habits. To create a new habit, you have to do it over and over again.

It takes time.

And so I think, especially if you do some kind of ritual, some couples even renew their vows. They said, you know, I want to be fully intimate with you, so it doesn't have to be weird. It can be very practical. And we've had couples do that. But I think some of the couples we've asked, you know, when they feel like, you know, I just. It's really hard to focus on my spouse. How about a prayer? How about praying together before you have sex and committing that time to your spouse and to the Lord and making it inviting him into your bedroom? Because I think then you're being intentional about focusing on your spouse. So I think you have to be creative to think about, how am I going to do this? And I think one of the other things we really suggest is keep your eyes open while you're having sex, because it forces you then to focus on your spouse and to be present rather than to be somewhere else in your mind. But it's going to take time. There's not an instant, as I said, God doesn't come out and pull your brain out. He says, I want you and I'll cooperate with you, but I want you to work with me on renewing your mind.

Yeah. Well, I think that speaks to one of the misconceptions about sex that we can have in our society. And I've heard TED talk about this in many of his talks, how there's a belief that sex should just be spontaneous. It should just be in the moment we're feeling it versus in a committed marriage. In terms of a healthy sexual relationship, it may take planning and thought and time together and prayer and for a person to consider, how am I building into that relationship in my marriage, because I'm not just waiting for it to be spontaneous and then maybe some of those old images or thoughts are coming back, but rather be more proactive to think about. How could I prepare myself? How could my spouse and I prepare together to have the kind of relationship we want to have in our bedroom and not just buy into that cultural belief that, oh, it just. It'll be spontaneous, it'll be great. And waiting for it to change, almost like magical thinking, it'll just be different because I want it to be different. Like, well, it'll probably be different if you plan and prepare for it to be the kind of experience you want it to be.

So let's kind of switch gears a little bit. So we've talked a lot about identifying and recognizing a soul tie in our life and how to cut those practically and how involved our spouse should be. But let's say that there's someone in our life that we know has those soul ties. How do we help people? Because I think that it's one of those things where when we identify it in our life, we want to pass it on to someone else who has experienced something similar. So how do we help people recognize soul ties in their life? And then what encouragement do we give them? How do we help them take those steps forward to cutting those.

Well, I think this podcast and video will help because I think the more informed people are, the more. And, you know, I think we've kind of touched upon it, too. When your friends aren't feeling real intimate with their spouse, you could bring up, well, have you ever thought about this as being an issue? And I think the other thing that we haven't mentioned is generational curses. And what I've realized, and especially probably in the last year, we've seen more couples who are getting in touch with how they were raised and the recognition for them that, oh, my mom and dad had affairs, and now I've had an affair, and it actually happened to my grandparents. And you start seeing a pattern where I think, to break these generational curses, that's something you can bring to somebody's attention and say, you know, if we don't deal with this issue, we will pass it on to the next generation. And Exodus 25, you know, that's the bad news. It goes to the third and fourth generation. But the good news is that the blessing goes to the thousandth. So the blessing is more powerful than the curse. And when couples recognize the power of this curse and want to do something, I see another benefit that they become proactive in teaching their kids. They become involved in the education of their kids. Because if you were to ask most people and all the people we counsel, none of their parents talked about healthy sexuality. So that's part of breaking that curse is that we, because we are dealing with these issues in our life, we're going to make sure that our kids have the benefit of understanding what healthy sexuality is. And we're breaking the curse. We're not just breaking the soul ties.

Yeah, that's good. That is something too, that, you know, you think about. And for me, whenever we talk about kids or man, the next generation, it's very, very vivid and palpable for me because of, you know, how young my son is. And so anything we can do, you know, we've been having this conversation even around the office and in the ministry that that's such a great in for so many people's healings is talking about their parenting and their kids. Like, you know that you have struggled with this, whether you've identified it or admitted it or not, but you know, for sure you don't want your kids to deal with it. And so if we can come in even in that direction, that seems like a really, I think the, the best way I would look at it is it's, it's non combative in that way that you can enter in that conversation practically by just saying, hey, this is something I'm trying to work on to help my kids. And then kind of sharing your own story. And then really just. It's almost like, you know, using reclaiming the hook imagery. You're almost putting a hook right there and saying, look, this is something you should work on too.

Yeah, well, and I think we empower the next generation when we talk about these things. I'll never forget one of our, my behind the mask groups, actually. She, I think she was about 17 and she was getting harassed by boys. You know, oh, you don't want to be sexual. Oh, you know, you're a goody two shoe. And she turned around after going through behind the Mask and says, do you know what that does to your brain? And, you know, she felt empowered totally.

And so she understood the process.

Yes. So we're in. By understanding this for ourselves and educating our kids, we are breaking those generational ties.

When we've talked about this on a lot of podcasts, that we can't force someone else to change. We can't make anyone do something that the best hope we have of creating change in someone else is to be working on ourselves. And so I think when it comes to that question with our spouse, if we fear or feel that our spouse has some soul ties that they're either not addressing or not Willing to. I think we first say, have I completely and fully dealt with those things in my own life? And am I being authentic and honest to deal with those as best as I can? And then having the humility to go to our spouse in an appropriate time and out of love saying, you know, I care about you and I care about our relationship so much. I want us to have the best marriage that we can have. And I fear that perhaps these ties from your past are still getting in the way of us having the relationship we like. And so I'm not telling you have to do something, but just want to invite you to consider if that's hindering our relationship and then, you know, being willing to leave it with them because you can't again make them do it. But I think if you're able to express your heart from a place where you have dealt with your own ties as much as possible, it'll at least create an open conversation where your spouse might begin to lean in as well and deal with some of their issues. So, Diane, we've talked a lot about soul ties in the context of an individual and their prayer, their relationship with God, the relationship with their spouse. And we've, we've hit on groups a little bit, but let's talk more about that. What is the purpose or value of someone addressing soul ties as part of a seven pillars group for men or a betrayal and beyond group for women or unraveled for women? What's the power of community in this process? Is that necessary or is it something that it's just okay to do on my own or with my spouse?

Well, I think the power of these groups is that you realize you're not alone. And it'll resonate with you when you realize, oh, other people are having a hard time with intimacy. So this kind of helps explain. It's not the full thing. You know, we have our family of origin issues, our attachment issues, but this is one of those pieces that help bring into perspective one of those things that could be holding me back. I remember teaching one of my first groups of a similar group to unraveled where women are dealing with their love addiction and sexual issues. And this gal named sue had gone through breaking of soul ties because she had been promiscuous all during her teen years. She's now 28, not married, but is still struggling with these relationships. So she broke the soul ties and then she took it a step farther with her group. She said, I'm going to set some healthy boundaries. One of her boundaries was she wasn't going to date for a year because she really fully wanted to be healed and set apart for God's purposes. So when she did start dating, she said, I want you, or I'm going to call you before every date, and I'm going to go through my list of boundaries, and when I come in for my curfew at 12, I want one of you or a couple of you to hold me accountable. And of course, the group, because they're there for that person, they'll stay up to 12, or they'll set their alarm and call that person at 12. So the power of the group is really amazing. And I asked Sue, I said, is it hard and humbling? I mean, you're an adult. You're 28 years old. Is it hard to have your group hold you accountable? And she said, oh, Diane, not at all. She said, I was raised in a family where they didn't care who I was with, where I went, or what I did, and to have sisters in Christ who are coming alongside of me saying, we care enough. We'll stay up till 12.

Yeah.

Because we love you and we want you to walk in the health that, you know, Jesus has set aside for you. So groups are not only empowering, but they're so supportive, and they can help us to walk in the way that we want to walk.

Yeah.

I mean, anything. Anything in life is done in health, is done better with a community. I mean, you just think about, you know, we talked about scripture a lot in this episode, just understanding that God didn't set up, you know, like, he set up a church, which is a bunch of families and a bunch of individuals that come together and are family in and of itself. So, I mean, I know for me, you're right on with the shame stuff, with the feeling like, I'm the only one. These sort of, like, being in these groups helps with that. And then also, it's just. It's cool because when you see other people get healthy and break those ties, it helps motivate you to continue on in your health and to keep moving forward. And also it's. It's much more convincing when a group of six or seven people are getting healthy together, when someone's like, I don't know if I want to do this. And it's just one person's opinion versus no. Actually, we've had, like, 48 people go through this group and experience this. It's also just something of the church and how people maybe respond to it. It's helpful when you see a group of people getting healthy together, it's much more inviting than just one person and potentially their only perspective.

Yeah, I think about, I just had the honor of doing a wedding for a friend. And there's always the welcome part where I thank people for coming and acknowledge that, you know, your presence here is more than just attending an event that you are. You're essentially pledging your support to this couple to walk with them, to pray for them, to encourage them. Because marriage, though it is between a husband and wife, I really see it as a community event. And I think about soul ties, there's some of that same value of, yes, it's work I do, it's work my spouse and I might do together, but within a community of people that encourage and support and walk alongside, there's just more power when we're in community, there's more accountability that helps us. And so I think if you are listening to this and not in a group and have maybe hemmed and hawed about, why would I need one? Maybe this is one of those issues you would see. Boy, if I can work through these past relationships in health with others, it's going to mean a lot more than just doing it on my own.

Yeah, Diane, this was great. We really appreciate you coming and sitting down with us and talking to us about it and helping people like me who this language seems foreign help better understand it. And I'm thankful that it has a practical edge to it now where I can understand that it's something that affects more than just a spiritual or mystical, which in some ways can seem weird type of area of my life, but that this can really play out in a lot of relationships. So thanks for your time.

Well, thanks for having me.

Yeah, absolutely. Thank you for listening to the Pure Desire podcast. If you like what you're hearing and want to keep up with the podcast, please subscribe, download and share. You can also rate and review our podcast. The more reviews we get, the easier it is for others to find the podcast. If you'd like to support the message of hope and healing in developing sexual integrity, go to PureDesire.org give and for more information about the ministry, check out our website, PureDesire.org and you can also follow us on social mediauredesirepdmi. Once again, that's earedesire PD pdmi. We'll see you next time.