106 – Full Disclosure

Foreign.

You're listening to the Pure Desire Podcast. Your safe place to find hope, healing, and freedom from sexual addiction, betrayal, and relationship issues. Hey. Hey, people. I am your host, Trevor Windsor, and you are listening to episode 106 of the Pure Desire podcast. I'm here with my co host, as always, Nick Stumbo.

What's the deal with that?

I have. I'm just gonna say I have no idea.

No idea. That is my best attempt at a Jerry Seinfeld impersonation. He's. He's known for the what's the deal with. You know. And then he's got all kinds of different things. And so from time to time, that phrase pops into my mind. What's the deal with that?

Have you heard Jimmy Fallon's like, like his. He. Jimmy Fallon does an excellent. Obviously it's an embellished version.

Sure. Yeah, Yeah.

I am not a Seinfeld viewer currently. I keep getting. People keep telling me, you need to watch. You need to watch it. I'm sorry. I'm apologizing to everyone who's judging me right now, but I will get there eventually.

It's a lot. There's a lot of seasons, so, you know, take your time. There were definitely some high moments. There were a lot of episodes like I just didn't, you know, finding the humor in everyday life, though I always appreciated that.

So we could continue talking about that and we would enjoy it, but we're not going to. We had Tyler and Sherry chill on the episode today. Tyler is our clinical director and Sherry is one of our co clinicians and they're both on our clinical team and they see people all the time dealing with really sexual addiction and recovery. And today we had them on to talk about disclosure.

Yeah. And it can be kind of a heavy topic, so maybe it's good. We started with kind of a light intro and a little bit of banter there that as the listener will hear. Some parts of this interview maybe are challenging to hear, especially depending on where you are in your journey. But we just want to encourage you there's a ton of hope in this process. And there's many, many couples that have walked through this very thing, and we haven't all done it perfectly. And we saw growth and good come from it. And so just keep that perspective in mind that while there are hard things we have to face, there's great good that can come out of this process.

Yeah. So go in with an open mind, understanding that the reason we're talking about this is because it's a part of the Recovery process. So enjoy the podcast. All right, Chinsons, you guys are here, you're in the house.

Feel fantastic.

Yeah. Do you like the table?

The new look wonderful.

I like the table. I like the plants.

That's Amy Windsor right there. Chanel, give her a plug. She helped out the wife.

I like it, I like it.

Also in Marshall's. We love Marshalls. Marshalls is the best. So guys, we're gonna talk about. We just even before we started the episode, this is a heavy big topic. And so let's just kind of from the get, make sure people understand if you don't get every single question answered about disclosure. That's why we're here. Reach out to us, ask us more questions. If we have to do more follow up episodes, we are totally fine with that. But we are going to do our best to scratch the surface and get under the surface a little bit of disclosure. So let's just start with a really important question. What is disclosure?

Disclosure is writing out and communicating one's entire sexual history to their betrayed spouse. So that is a big deal. It is a big deal.

It is a very big deal.

And the process is well thought out. And both parties are supported through that process of disclosure. That's the ideal. But disclosure is essentially opening up and being honest about one's story and sharing that story and establishing a baseline of trust, essentially.

And even before the episode started, we talked about too. Identifying this is full disclosure is what we're talking about, correct?

That's right. That's right. It's important to know that full history, not just a piece of it. The betrayed spouse really needs that respect of knowing the whole story.

One of the things I feel that I can bring to the episode or that we often do as we have guests, is we're hearing all the questions that we can hear people have asked us or that as they hear you launch into this topic, like, well, what about? And this. And so one of those questions that comes to mind just as a follow up, what is the value of a full disclosure, like a full sexual history, as you said, Tyler, versus some might feel like, well, can't I just share what's happened in the timeframe of our relationship? What's the value of doing your full sexual history versus confining it to the timeframe of your relationship?

It's amazing what comes out of that entire history as it's shared. It absolutely helps the individual who is writing out their formal or full disclosure to understand some of those pieces, some of those experiences and events that that led them to where they were and are in their marriage. So we want to capture the entire story because it helps both parties in the marriage make sense of where they're currently at.

I think it really helps that betrayed spouse understand that there is that history. It's not necessarily all about me and about I'm not enough. They understand better the entire process that led up to that.

Yeah. So it's like painting a full picture and not just partial or like a movie metaphor. If you just start the movie in the middle and the spouse feels confused, like. Well, yes, because you missed the first half of the movie. And so if you know the character development and the setup and who the bad guys are and why they're bad guys and then the rest of the movie makes sense. And so for a spouse to think through, maybe there is a lot of garbage from my past I'd rather not bring up. But. But in an appropriate, thoughtful, fact based way, sharing all that backstory actually will help them understand what's happened. And even though it can still be hard to hear, can really make for a better experience.

You know, what's a little hard to imagine, but true and accurate is often those stories begin at ages 8 to 12. And it's really important to capture that.

I think too. Just understanding that because you're talking about the importance of disclosure for the actual, the struggler or the addict, understanding that there is a longer story, there's more to it. And there are, because when you think about 8 to 12, that area of life, there's so much that happens outside of your control that impacts your life and your future. And so in some ways, and I've experienced this too personally, that it actually diminishes shame. It helps me understand that I'm more of a normal person than maybe I thought I was. But that's the nice thing about having the whole story is I better understand myself and then what recovery can even look like in an amplified way. Moving forward.

Yes.

Yeah.

So another question or thought process I can hear listeners going through is, you know, wouldn't it be better to just leave this private? You know, what they don't know can't hurt them. Isn't the important thing that I change my behavior and that things get better moving forward? Just that the questions of why, why go through all this. Because it's going to be hard, it's going to be painful. So why is a full disclosure such an important piece to recovery and restoring relationship in a marriage? They're looking at each other.

Yeah, yeah. With the addict or you want to start with the betrayed spouse.

Let's start with the betrayed spouse.

Okay. Well, for the betrayed spouse, again, it's that knowledge of the whole story. She's been living in a sense of unrest, not knowing the truth, not knowing what's going on. She can't continue. She needs the respect of knowing what she's dealing with. I say she because usually I'm working with the female. It's a higher percentage, but it can go either way. Yeah. So that betrayed spouse does need the respect of knowing what they're dealing with so that they can make their decisions for their life.

Yeah.

It seems like if we give into that thought process that says what they don't know can't hurt them. Essentially, I am requiring or asking someone else to live in a false reality that they never agreed to or that they don't have any choice in that. The full disclosure for that betrayed spouse is giving them the dignity of knowing the truth, knowing the full story, so that they can make appropriate decisions so that they can move forward on reality, not on fantasy.

And it's not a guessing game, because I feel like at that point, too, you're leaving it open to speculation, like, well, I don't really know the whole picture. So did this per. Like, did my spouse do this or that or. But, you know, and I think that there's almost this fear too, to ask because you don't want the answers. That fear also goes away because you have the answers.

Yeah, it's all in the light. There's no more darkness.

Yeah, that's good.

More times than not, we see partial disclosure prior to the full disclosure. And so that gets the wheels turning, often with the betrayed spouse wondering what else happened, what about this? And she begins to question their history. And so in order to get things onto the table and with that full understanding of where the couple is and how they got there, the full disclosure is required.

So another kind of clarifying question, we talk about the 2 difference because you're talking about really a limited disclosure. What we see is there's the staggered disclosure that happens over time. What's the difference between a full and a staggered disclosure?

A staggered disclosure actually is a re traumatization of the betrayed spouse. She's hearing parts of the story, and oftentimes it's devastating each time she hears a part of that story, the full disclosure, there's prep work on the front end during the full disclosure and afterwards that provides both parties support. So the shock factor actually is much, much less when she hears the entire story, as opposed to Parts and pieces.

That's counterintuitive.

It is a little bit. It absolutely is.

It is. But I always think of ripping off the band aid. You know, it really hurts when you start pulling off that band aid a little at a time, and that. That pain, you know, keeps going. If you rip it off. Yeah, it hurts. It hurts a lot. But now you have the opportunity to heal and to recover.

Yeah. The metaphor we were given in our recovery journey, and I say this as someone who practiced stagger disclosure, not intentionally, but just thinking that's what you do. You confess. And so when something new would happen, confess a little more without ever really putting all the pieces together or facing it fully. And I wonder if for a lot of men and women, they think that is being honest, to just kind of share a little bit as much as they feel like they need to share to get the weight off their chest. And it feels like I'm being honest, but I. I'm never really sharing the full story. And the metaphor we were given was, for my wife, the feeling of falling into a bottomless pit, that every time she would hear more, it'd just be this sense of, what else don't I know? What else is there? And the question for her of, will this ever stop? Will the falling? Will there ever be an end to this? And that unknowing, that uncertainty, I think, is what really drove a wedge between us and made her feel like, can I even stay in this relationship? So what the full disclosure did in that analogy was created a firm foundation, a bottom. And even if it was a deep pit and for every person, how deep the pit goes might be a little different based on how long it's been and how much activity, but. But it actually created a bottom where both spouses could put their feet on firm footing and know this is our truth, this is where we are. We might not like it, but at least we know where we are, and we can start climbing and building back up. And that wasn't possible until that full story had been presented by me to my wife. And so maybe that analogy would be helpful to someone else to just think about why do this if it is very difficult and daunting.

And it's important to know that, that even if you do this process and we'll get into what it looks like, even if you do this perfectly, like, textbook, it's still going to be really painful. It's not going to be. It's going to feel like it gets way worse before it gets better. But I think what I'm hearing you guys say, and what we've experienced just through doing group work and with counseling, is that it's a necessary and very needed part if health and recovery is in your future.

It absolutely is. It's often the most challenging and difficult part of the process of recovery and restoration, but it's also the most needed. And we talk to couples after they've been through the Pure Desire program, and they often say that was the most difficult but also the most helpful, not uncommon to hear that.

Yeah. So you kind of alluded to it earlier that there's work that you do before a full disclosure. Let's talk about what that is. What's the recommended work? Recovery work, if you will, that's done before a full disclosure.

Can we just say one thing? Don't wing it. Don't wing it. Have a structured process, because winging it usually ends poorly for both parties. So that would be our first recommendation. Also, there's a need for a plan and a structured path forward on how to do that well. And we at Pure Desire, we encourage that professional support. It can't always happen, but in the optimum world, it would happen.

There's gotta be that self care going on too. There's gotta be group support. There's gotta be people who you can go to and talk to and process through some of your fears, some of your worries. And. And it really can't be your spouse. You've got to have some outside people that you can really talk to, especially that betrayed spouse. She can't be hammering on her spouse saying, well, what's going on? What are you thinking? What are you doing? What are you writing? She's got to be processing her fears with people who understand what's going on.

Yeah, I think it's important that we, you know your phrase there, Tyler, don't wing it. Because the last thing we would want someone to do is turn off this podcast and go, all right, I'm convinced. Full disclosure, and then go to their spouse. You know, we've referred to it as kind of graphic, but as emotional vomiting. Just get it all out there and maybe I feel better when I'm done, but what a mess I create. And the person I've done that to feels awful and has this mess to clean up. And so we want someone to face that full reality, but to do it thoughtfully, to do it with good counsel and wisdom coming behind it and not just have it be of, okay, I need to get this out and be done with it, because that often can be much more damaging in the long run.

So there are a lot of people who've been in recovery or maybe are in recovery that are going to have this situation happen where a spouse demands a full disclosure, like immediately. So maybe they're just starting group. Maybe they're interested in group but haven't started yet.

Got caught with something.

Right. And the spouse goes, I want to know everything. Go. What do you suggest for that person? They haven't had that time to write it out or to do group work or maybe even, you know, talk to the group beforehand. What do you suggest in that situation?

That's not the optimum approach to receiving an individual's history because it will be in parts and pieces. The addict has not had an opportunity to thoughtfully present his whole story, and that's required, or we'll be repeating that process in the future. What would we suggest? Integrating group. Get the guidance of a facilitator or even a professional. This is not a process that can be taken lightly because we don't want to do additional damage.

I would say if there's a way to communicate, if there's a way for the addict, if you will, to communicate to the betrayed spouse an understanding that they want to know the story, but also a way to understand, a way to empathize, that I don't want to tell you in bits and pieces. I don't want to hurt you more. I want to do this correctly and I want to get good guidance.

Yeah. And that's the kind of counsel I've tried to give when people ask about it, to say, I think what you can communicate to your spouse is I want to tell you the whole story and I'm committed to, and I will. But I'm fearful that right. If I were to do that right now in this emotional moment, it would be partial. I would be maybe blaming or defending myself in ways that would not be appropriate. I would maybe share too much in some ways, get too detailed, but then not enough in others, and there'd be a whole bunch of oh, yeah, I forgot abouts, and down the road that would just make this hard. And so in those cases, like when we talk about this in our workbooks, that if someone has been caught, if they've been found out in the middle of something, you don't get this long time to build up to full disclosure. It may need to happen fairly soon. But even then, to get them integrated into group, to get them with a counselor, to get them time to write it, you know, there are several steps they could take, even in the scope of Maybe a few days or weeks. That would be a night and day difference than just at that as we often hear the story, you know, it's 11pm and they're arguing and it's like, tell me right now. And like, if you could even create a little space for that full disclosure, what a difference it can make. So that can be really challenging in a relationship. But that's the kind of language I encourage, is just to make it clear you're committed to that, but giving some reasons why a little bit of time might help it be a better experience.

Completely agree.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's, I mean, I'm just thinking about that situation that's even that answer is not going to probably go over well. But it's, I mean, it's necessary if you want to do it the best way. Yeah. Gosh, it just stresses me out thinking about that situation.

Yeah. So we're kind of talking around the process a lot and about it. And I think it's important to have some of this set up as we go into it. But let's have you guys walk us through now. What does the process of full disclosure actually look like? What are the pieces and steps along the way that someone could expect or could look for as they engage in this process?

Sure. Well, there's a sexual history that's written out and it's often helpful to have a second set of eyes to review that. And that sexual history goes back to the first experience of memory, being exposed to sexualized behavior or sexualized images. And oftentimes we'll encourage five year increments, chronological order. And again, having that second set of eyes on the disclosure statement, how detailed is that?

Like, is it, I looked at these types of images or did it with this specific person? Or is it more of like the action that happened rather than the specific in detail?

I'm not completely clear on the question.

So one of the things we talk about is, and we talked a lot on the podcast, is we don't share every single detail because specifics can be painful, certainly. So in the full disclosure, where are we on that range?

Where we're at, there is if there has been an encounter with another person that's stated.

Got it.

The behavior stated, gotta be.

Yeah. And if the betrayed spouse knows the person, they need to know that they know the person that it happened with.

Otherwise, names aren't named.

Exactly.

So the chronological order is constructed. Second set of eyes. And then from that chronological order, often an individual will write out a narrative. There's no. It's just the facts. We need the facts. There's no embellishment. There's no justification or rationalization for the behavior.

This is what it is.

Yep.

Yeah.

And it has to be. And so we also talk about a polygraph. And if that's important to the betrayed spouse, and if it is, that creates another layer of essentially work that needs to be done by both parties.

Right? Right. She will need to write questions that she might have and those have to be formatted in a certain way. So she's going to need guidance.

And the polygraph creates like a foundational kind of baseline of we know where we're at, black and white.

It's helpful to get a third party to verify truthfulness.

They are telling you everything.

Yes. And that's often one of the questions from the spouse. Have you been completely honest with your history? Are all the pieces in place? There's also a couple of letters that are written.

Yes. When I'm working with betrayed spouse, I have them write a couple of letters. One is a letter, an initial emotional impact letter. They know how they feel. They know how the behavior has impacted them up to now, and it helps them to process through that pain in that way in a letter format. They're going to have an opportunity to write a follow up letter to that after they do know the whole story. But up until now, this is how this has impacted me. They also write, I have them write a letter to the person I thought I married, going back and thinking about why did I marry you? What were the things about you that made me want to marry you? That helps them think about not everything has been terrible. There have been good points in this relationship because they need to have some hope that it can go back to that place. And then also we talked about the polygraph questions. Usually they can write three polygraph questions for answering during that polygraph situation.

So after the polygraph, if there is a polygraph, the results come back. Just depends on the scenario. It may be handed to the individual, it may be emailed to the couple afterwards with the results of the polygraph. And from there that is often read between the two parties. And if there's a third party involved, it's read by them the results of the polygraph. And after that the individual will read his full history. And that's when the disclosure takes place. Oftentimes people think the disclosure should take place before the polygraph. No, we're reinforcing truthfulness. And so the question is, have you been truthful with your full disclosure? And that again is Often one of.

The questions, so that the spouse knows as they hear it what you're hearing is accurate. It's factual. It's the full story. Otherwise, a spouse who's feeling wounded and has this lack of trust is maybe listening to the whole full disclosure through this lens of, well, this is probably only half of it and what aren't you telling me? And that's not true.

Especially if they've experienced that staggered disclosure. Well, you told me this once, and you told me it was everything. Is this really everything?

Here we are again.

The interesting thing that sticks out to me as you guys are describing it is it's not something that just the person struggling or the addict does. It's a process that both parties are putting a lot of time and investment. Emotional, physical. There's a lot of effort on both ends, which I did not. I didn't realize that was, as you know, involved for both.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So one of the questions, again, that I'm hearing from listeners and that we've had come up quite frequently, is when a spouse wants to ask questions about fantasy. And in particular, it'll be things like, well, have you ever lusted after any of my friends or my sister or people we know at church? And they're looking for details, not about actual behaviors, because as we've already discussed, if it's an actual behavior and interaction with another person, that's another matter that needs that reality. But what about when it's lust and fantasy and the one the betrayed spouse is wanting to know and asking that. In fact, I've heard those very questions, my sister, my friends, people at church, how should the addict, the one struggling, respond to that? And is that helpful to answer those questions?

I call that pain shopping. The spouse is really wanting to find something they can hold on to. So I think in that situation, it's really important for that spouse to be able to process again those reasons why you want to know this. Those are the things they need to process with their group members. Fantasy is not something you can really measure or you can't get inside that addict's brain and, you know, change that. That's got to come from the addict themselves. So the spouse needs to learn to understand that and manage their own fears. There's a fear base in that, and they've got to learn to manage that.

When we begin asking questions about thought and thought process, that is a slippery slope. And so we encourage couples, the betrayed spouse, not to go there if possible, and as Sherry had mentioned, to process that with her group members.

Well, it seems like to me in a lot of those situations, the spouse asking, they're trying to understand the person's lust. And I'm like, it's lust, it's sinful, it's rooted in brokenness. And to understand that is maybe not even a fair goal or objective. And it's also often rooted in comparison. And I say to a spouse, if you're ever trying to compare yourself to their fantasy, you're already in a losing situation. That is you're not trying to be more unhealthy for them so that you can fit whatever unhealthy paradigm is in their mind. And we've used it on this podcast before, but to talk about how in the Old Testament, Jeremiah says that the human heart is desperately wicked. Who can measure it? And essentially when a spouse is asking for lust and fantasy kind of questions, they're trying to measure the wickedness and get a handle on it so they can. It's just not necessarily a healthy place now for the struggler or the addict. Do we need to face those things and be real in our group and look at where does it come from and what's my arousal patterns and why do certain things appeal to me and create these triggers? Yes, absolutely. So I hope no one hears the message. Oh, just ignore that part. But in the relationship in full disclosure, it's really getting us off task of what we're trying to accomplish in that process.

Completely agree.

So we've talked through that of you write out sexual history, it's chronological in nature, fact based and then if needed or if important, a polygraph that precedes it. So that's presented as evidence of truthfulness. The disclosure is given then any other steps in. And then you talked about the letter writing. Any other interaction that follows as part of that full disclosure.

You know, I think there's a post disclosure plan that kind of needs to come into play too.

Okay.

I think the betrayed spouse needs to really think through what, what they need to do to help themselves after. You know, if I hear this, what am I going to need to do? I need to plan lunch with my girlfriends. I need to plan a manicure, a pedicure or whatever. I need to do something to take care of myself afterwards.

So it's a post plan, but it's actually something you need to make prior to. Prior to kind of think through how will I have emotional mental spirit space to process, to think, to stay in a healthy place and not go off the deep end emotionally. Yeah. Going into it prepare that makes a Lot of sense. So one of the things that we recommend frequently at Pure Desire is that if possible, someone go through this process with certified sex addiction therapists, with people that have done this before. Why do we recommend that so strongly?

If a full disclosure is done improperly, it does more damage than benefit, by far. And it's easy to do this improperly. It really is, without guidance and suggestions, a protocol. Nick, as you had mentioned earlier, it's the spouse. We'll say the addict wants relief and he wants to share his story, and he wants to offload that and feel better because his betrayed spouse now knows the story. But then he leaves her with a whole lot of pain to process transfer.

Of the weight, basically, I'm not carrying anymore, but I just put it on someone else.

I just dumped that dump truck right on your lap.

Right.

So there are many pitfalls associated with just freestyling that full disclosure process. So that's why Pure Desire recommends a certified professional to help a couple through this process. Because A, it's not easy, and B, there are a lot of steps, A lot of steps involved.

And I think you really need that mediator, you know, you need that person sitting there to say, okay, now this is what we say. Now this is where we go. It's hard to do that when you're in the middle of that disclosure process.

So many emotions in the room. It's incredible.

Well, and I mean, I would guess you guys have done hundreds of disclosures.

Yes.

So it's like you've been able to see every shade of a disclosure, and to be able to have that experience coming into the room where this may be the first time someone's ever done or been a part of a full disclosure. So even just that, I mean, knowing that I can, like, lean on this person because they've done it and helped so many other people do it.

One thing that seems very simple from the outside that we often do is we encourage, as that full disclosure statement is being read, to slow down, because oftentimes he wants to read through it, get through it. And she's discussing so much incoming information, she's overwhelmed. Where do you go from there? So that's one simple example of how a professional can support the couple through that process.

True, true. It's the timing of questions. You know, if the betrayed spouse has more questions, write them down. Don't just blurt them out. I mean, it's those simple kind of things. They seem simple, but it's really difficult to manage those when you're in the middle of it yourself.

So I think that it's normal. And, you know, we're going to ask a question that really could go either way to the betrayed spouse or to the addicted spouse. The question really is, what if there is, and there usually is, fear that what's disclosed could end the marriage. And I can see from both perspectives a person, whether it's a man or woman struggling, I'm about to share this information that could destroy this marriage and blow it up. And then on the other side, a betrayed spouse. What if information I hear makes me not feel safe anymore? What if something happened that for me, I just can't overcome it? And so I think in some ways that fear, it makes total sense, would keep you from wanting to enter into a full disclosure. So what should people do to overcome that fear?

You know, that question just underscores the need for that professional guidance. I know that's kind of a dodge answer to the question, but really to provide a response to the question, to cover the gamut wouldn't be fair to the listener. So from where I sit, I would direct them. If there are those issues in an individual's history, the couple's history, and you need professional guidance in the process.

Yeah, that's actually one of the markers I've used in group when I talk about disclosure of why should you engage with a professional counselor? I'll say if. If there's something you're going to share that you fear could be a deal breaker. You don't want to do this, as we've said, winging it emotionally. You want the best possible environment to lead to the best possible outcome because you want to know you did it as best you could. And then however he or she responds to your disclosure is kind of in their cord. And I always think of something else that Andy Stanley wrote in his book Matters of the Heart. He says you think that it's sharing it that will hurt them, but he says you've already done the thing that hurt them. And so sharing it is not the problem. It's already happened. And if you don't get honest about what happened, you're actually more likely to repeat it and make it worse. And so kind of getting through that to say, I've already done that thing and now sharing it is actually just a choice to be a person of integrity and to allow them the dignity of having reality and making their choice based on reality. Not living in this, as we've talked about earlier, this false reality.

No easy answer. I mean, there's really not a question.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, fear is going to be a part of it, period. Like, there's always going to be that. And I mean, it's anything. And I've just been learning this even more. So practically anything in recovery takes courage to move forward, to push forward in health, in a relationship, even having those difficult conversations where you feel like all we're doing is just fist fighting. But those. It takes courage to do those. And it's the same thing with this. Obviously, we talk a lot about on the podcast about including other people in the process, whether that is a professional, but also understanding that talking to a group member or to someone in your community about those fears and being able to process it with someone who's safe and understands some of the story, I think is also really helpful, won't necessarily take the fear away, but may give you enough courage to step over it.

Indeed.

And there's fear on both sides.

Oh, yeah.

A lot of fear on both sides.

In the almost 12 years I've been doing this, we've had one marriage blow up after a disclosure. Wow. And it was completely understood why she said, I can't do it anymore. She had forgiven and forgiven and forgiven. And then there was new information that came out and she said, I can't do it.

I think I can't remember which of the counselors, because you guys are all smart, but somebody said it. That you'd be surprised at how much people can overcome if we're honest. I know we talked about that. So even just hearing that statistic of just one, that's incredible.

It's the honesty. I mean, the betrayed spouse needs the honesty. I hear that over and over and over. You know, I can deal with. I can deal with whatever, but I can't deal with the lying anymore.

Yeah.

So another. And as we. We kind of warn people, this is a challenging topic. A lot of difficulties that we're facing. What if you want full disclosure and this could happen on either side, that maybe you're the one who's been struggling or addicted and you're. You're trying to move into health and live a better life and make the right choices and you're ready for full disclosure, but your spouse isn't in recovery and they say, no, I don't want it, or vice versa. Maybe, you know, your spouse is struggling, you know, they're having issues, you know, they're not being fully honest and you feel like in order to move forward, I'm going to need to know the story here, but they're not in recovery and they're saying I'm not talking in either case. I guess you can start with either one first. But in either of those scenarios where only half of the partnership wants full disclosure, what what should that person do for the addict?

I would recommend the process of writing out the full disclosure because it can be extremely helpful and enlightening to him or her. And if his spouse is not ready to receive that information, okay, we have to honor that, and we will honor that. But don't pull back from actually writing out your story because it will be helpful. And there may be a day after you seal your history, written history, put it in the safe. There may be a day where she's ready and you can provide that to her.

But it's really important to care for the needs of that betrayed spouse throughout the disclosure process and to respect their wishes. They should not be given any more information than they're ready to handle.

And I would say in addition to that, as he moves into health, she begins to see that, and she may want a part of that restorative process.

Sure.

So from the spouse who may want it. Sherry True.

You know, she again, if the betrayed spouse wants it, the addict doesn't want to give it. There's no way to make somebody do something that they're not going to want to do. So all the betrayed spouse can do is take care of theirselves. They have to again, continue in that group work. They have to continue in their own path of healing. They have to establish their boundaries, what they will accept and what they won't accept. And they have to continue on that path again. Hopefully the addict will see that recovery in their spouse and then they'll come along too.

Yeah.

And we try to be careful as a ministry to say that we believe in a biblical view of marriage. We believe that God calls us together for that lifelong commitment. At the same time, we run into situations where a spouse has to decide at what point can the relationship be sustainable? Because we know that trust is a deep, deep need for a healthy relationship. And if one spouse is saying, I know there's stuff going on and you're not willing to tell me, they have to kind of discern what am I willing to live with. Can I live in a relationship where my spouse won't even allow truth to be the foundation of our marriage? Because then there's not going to be much intimacy. It's going to be difficult to have sexual relationships with someone you don't trust. And I think for the spouse, as you've said, to create some boundaries and not doing it vindictively or in a mean spirit, but just out of kind of a truthfulness of I need to know if I can trust you. I need to know if you've been with other people. I need to know whether or not I'm the only one in your life. And if you can't be honest about those things, I don't know what kind of relationship we'll be able to have. And again, for that person to really seek out professional help, to have a group around them so that they're not just acting because it is emotional and we don't want to just react out of that emotion. But there do come some hard conversations that, that need to happen. And I've seen for people that can be the wake up call where the one struggling goes, oh, this is a lot more than I realized because I was kind of in that situation with my wife for 10 years saying, it's my problem, I'm dealing with it. You know, you only need to know this part and I'm not going to tell you that much. But when it kind of came to that recognition that it was really breaking the relationship, that's what created willingness on my part to change. And so I think for that spouse to try to help them have the right conversation and approach to say those hard things, maybe what they need to do to create that reality for the one who's struggling to have to maybe deal with some things.

I think something you said too is really important, is it goes back to that group support. We don't want those boundaries to be vindictive. We want them to be supportive of yourself. We want those boundaries to be realistic and we want them to be helpful. We don't want them to be a gotcha moment.

So we've talked about it a little bit already with some of the work that both spouses are doing, kind of going into a full disclosure. But what are some other things that a spouse, specifically a betrayed spouse, can do to prepare themselves for? When we talk about it's painful, it's necessary, you know, you use the analogy of ripping the band aid. Is there any other emotional work resources they should read, types of people they should talk to? What can someone do to best prepare themselves for that disclosure?

They sound like a broken record, but it's self care and it's group support. I mean, they've got to have that support. That group that has gone through it, that they're going through it with. They've got to be with people who are, who are a little bit ahead of Them who may have gone through this process before and who can really support them as they are learning to go through it. They've got to learn to process those fears that are coming up, those concerns with that group and to keep going back to that group because they can't process in that moment with that spouse, spiritual support, emotional support, and supporting themselves physically, exercise, eating right, and establishing that community around them.

Yeah, I like what you say about going in with the prayer, support and kind of spiritually prepared. And the other thing I try to encourage people is to go into that with just an open heart, to not predetermine. Well, if they share this, then I'm going to do that. And if this is revealed, then I'm out of here. Or if they confess to that, it's over. Because now you've kind of painted the whole person into a corner and it's not really going to be the full disclosure process. Now, there may be things that come out that create some really hard decision points. But I think if you just listen with an open heart and mind and then as you talked about earlier, Sherry, have kind of a plan of how can I get some emotional space here? Who can I go to for support that over time and with the help of godly wisdom in your life, you'll come to the right conclusions and decisions of what to do with that information. But if you predetermine your response, you're not really listening to the disclosure anymore. You're just looking for that one thing to decide, okay, there's my decision. So I think trying to stay open and then allowing God and others to lead you after that is very important.

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I've had a lot of women come in with, you know, this is my bottom line. If I hear that he's done this, that's it. But they hear that he's done that, and they've also heard the whole story. They've been able to connect some dots that they never knew about before. And now that bottom line doesn't look so terrible. They realize they can get past it.

Yeah.

But yes, if they had come in with that, you know, if. If he says this, I'm out of here. Yeah, that would have been disastrous.

Yeah. I'm curious, just as I'm thinking about it, that you don't want to come in and, like, just be numb. You don't want any of it to affect you. Because I think you think about preparing yourself and you know, this pain is coming and it's fearful and it's like, you know what it doesn't matter. Doesn't matter what is said. I'll be fine. We'll make it through. And I'm just wondering if that's healthy. Like, maybe you should feel it a little bit so that, you know, moving forward, what to do, how to change, you know, revisiting conversations or things that you know about the story now.

Yeah. What is it you've got to feel to heal? Yeah.

Cheesy, but true, right?

It is true. It is. It is.

One more thing I'd like to add about the betrayed spouse is she didn't sign up for this.

Yeah.

Or he, depending on the situation, certainly.

And so to have to do this really, really difficult work requires resilience, determination, strength. It's tough work. And she's part of that. The betrayed spouse is part of that.

Yeah. Even to step into the room means there's a level of investment in the relationship.

Tremendous courage.

Yeah.

Well.

And what I hope people hear in this podcast is that there's tremendous hope on the other side that we talk to so many couples that. Yeah. In the midst of it. Hard, messy, challenging. But I think of a couple we heard from just this week sharing some of their story. They're almost glowing. With the marriage we have now that we've wanted, the ways we're helping other people, the ways we communicate with each other, how we're better parents. I mean, they would say so. Clearly, their whole lives have been changed, and the only way they got there was through some pretty messy stuff. And so if you are that spouse, wondering, is it worth it? I didn't sign up for this. Do I want to do that? I hope you hear that side of what can happen on the other side is so much better. And my wife and I experienced it so much better than you expected, that that is the goal that keeps you moving forward. And so we've been talking about it quite a bit. The full disclosure has happened, and now there's the what's next? So, Tyler, share a little bit more about what happens after the disclosure process, and what do those steps look like?

You know, oftentimes it's dependent upon how well the disclosure went.

Naturally.

Yes. Yeah.

So where there is group support, perhaps even professional guidance, it's encouraged that the individual who disclosed remain open and honest, because the spouse will have questions. That's really important to be present and available and not just shut down and say, I've told you this story. It's over. It doesn't work that way. She will have residual questions. And so to be open and honest. And available to her. What this couple is doing is they're beginning to establish a new norm and it feels very uncomfortable, likely for both of them. And as they're open and responsive, have a heart to receive. Where there's empathy, there's hope.

It always feels like that's the time when you can, when we're working with a couple, that we can start working on the marriage and really strengthening and becoming that new normal.

Yeah, the disclosure is work, but it's not the big work is what I'm hearing you say. It's a huge first step, but then the work comes after. This is kind of the starting blocks, if you will, of recovery or healing in a marriage. That's scary.

That's a whole different podcast, I think.

Totally.

Well, I think that's a reminder as we're getting towards the end here, to keep in mind what we've talked about today is one piece of the puzzle. It's one stage of the journey. And for some people, this has been such a big thing in their mind that they've kind of made this the whole story. We've got to get my disclosure out there and she's got to deal with it. And then like, this is all we do. Like, no, that's just a part of the journey. So the group support and the self care we do, and learning new habits and the longevity of leaning into these new principles you're learning with your group and in recovery, all those things are just as important, if not more important than full disclosure. But because of the emotional weight of full disclosure, we can almost make it too big of a part of the process. Is it important and vital? Yes. But it is a part of a much, much bigger story that God has you and your relationship on.

Yeah. So if you're listening to this and you're in that situation where you're considering a full disclosure or wanting to do it right, we would just suggest that you reach out. I mean, if this. We hope that this episode was very helpful. I feel like we did cover quite a bit of stuff, but also understand that do you have follow up questions? That's why we're here. We're happy to, you know, be that person down the road as you talked about, Sherry. So make sure you reach out to us. We'll have our contact information in the show notes. But Tyler, Sherry, appreciate you coming in, trying to tackle this really big topic.

It's a privilege. Thank you both.

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