108 – Sexual Discipleship w/ Dr. Juli Slattery

Foreign.

You're listening to the Pure Desire Podcast, your safe place to find hope, healing, and freedom from sexual addiction, betrayal, and relationship issues. Hello. Hello. I am your host, Trevor Windsor, and you are listening to episode 108 of the Pure Desire Podcast. I am sitting here, as always, with my co host, Nick Stumbo.

Here he comes to save the day.

I have no idea.

Do you know where that comes from?

Like I just said, I have no idea.

It is often repeated, but that is actually the theme song from Mighty Mouse, the cartoon.

I remember Mighty Mouse. Okay, trivia question. Which Portland trailblazer was deemed Mighty Mouse?

Was that Stoudemire?

Damon Stoudemire?

Yeah. That's a good one. Okay. I had trivia for this one, too.

Oh, gosh.

What year did Mighty Mouse come out, bro?

I have no idea. I'm guessing, like, 80s.

80S? Wow. You're not even close. 1942 was the debut of Mighty. It's gone through many iterations, and it was actually first called Super Mouse, which I think is fascinating that Supermouse was the first name for him. But, yeah, long, long tradition in our culture.

Oh, my gosh. Okay.

Has nothing to do with today's episode.

I am so done talking about it. Today we were honored to have Dr. Julie Slattery on with us, and she is the author of Rethinking Sexuality. And we talked to her about, really something she coins in her book called Sexual Discipleship.

Yeah. Yeah. I always love it when we have guests, and I hope our listeners have picked up that we don't just interview people for the sake of interviewing, but when we really realize that their heart and their vision and what they're speaking resonates with what we do. And that's, I think, what they're going to hear so much in this interview with Julie. It's like she speaks our language. She's not Pure Desire, but she's definitely trying to help in the church create a lot of the conversations that we say. Yes, yes. That's what's needed. And so I'm thrilled about today's episode, and I know people will get a lot out of it.

Yeah. Get ready. This is a really, really good one. So here it is. Enjoy the podcast. Julie, we are honored to have you with us today, and welcome for your first time to the Pure Desire Podcast.

Thanks for having me. Glad to be with you.

I feel honored. I mean, I just found out that you were a host or part of Focus on the Family, their radio program. So I feel as a host, maybe second tier today is the best Way to put it.

No, not at all. I learned a lot at Focus, but I keep learning. Definitely.

That's awesome. Well, let's just jump in. We are talking about sexual discipleship. And as we talked a little bit about in the intro, you wrote a book called Rethinking Sexuality. And so we're kind of diving into this topic. So the first question really is some of our listeners maybe don't know you, and maybe that's just, you know, a couple of them don't know who you are or have never read the book. So can you give some of your story and really how this book came? To be?

Sure, absolutely. So I'm a clinical psychologist by training and always had a heart to deal with marriage and family issues and women's issues and practiced in psychology. But as you mentioned, I went out to focus on the family and became involved in more of a teaching type style of ministry rather than counseling. And then in 2012 left focus because God had just really put a burden on my heart and to specifically address issues of sexuality, I saw so much pain around me represented in so many different kinds of stories that all seem to lead back to broken sexuality. And so co founded a ministry called Authentic Intimacy and began full time just writing, speaking and working on issues related first to women in sexuality. And then over the last few years, that's kind of branched out, not just to women, but also to really helping equip Christian leaders to understand kind of a fuller, broader approach to sexual issues than what we traditionally, I think, have just gotten passed down to us. And so the book Rethinking Sexuality is kind of the culmination of the work of probably six or seven years of just seeing the lack of, I'd say, robust teaching and thinking related to sexual topics within the Christian church and really wanting to get people to dig deeper and to think through some of the issues we're addressing.

And if I remember right, Julie, you have three adult sons now, is that correct?

Yeah, they're kind of adult. Ish, adulting, as we say. The oldest is 22, just graduated from college and then we have a 20 year old and a 16 year old. So we're right on the cusp of releasing adults.

Yeah. So no doubt getting to deal with a lot of sexuality and questions in your own home as you raise those three boys.

For sure. Yeah, I'd say we're asking a lot of the questions nowadays and prompting them to ask questions. So, yeah, this is definitely real for us in our own marriage and our own parenting.

Yeah, well, I really Appreciate the perspective you bring, Julie, because it seems that a lot of the ministries working on sexual health and recovery were started because of the struggle among men and how prevalent that is. And many of them were started by men and then have developed into the women's side, where you've kind of come the reverse of you've started with that passion for women and for their issues, and then have developed into the holistic of men and couples. And so it's so great to have a voice like yours that really, for male and female people, see and hear both from both sides.

Yeah. I think we approach the issue differently. I know I'm generalizing, but I'll hear from men who will say, wow, I've never heard anyone present this topic that way. I think partly that is just God's design of male and female. We do experience it differently and think through it differently.

Yeah, yeah. And in God's design, both are fully and wholly needed to contribute to the discussion.

Yep, absolutely.

So, Julie, in a lot of homes and particularly a lot of churches, the whole conversation around sexuality can be very, very difficult and even divisive. In your own opinion and experience, why do you think that is? Why is sexuality so tough for us to talk about without getting awkward or weird or into fights or what? Why is this one so difficult?

Yeah, I think there are a couple reasons. First of all, I think because for most of us, healthy conversations around sexuality have never been modeled. And if we think about how we learned about sexual, sex and sexuality, most of us would say, well, maybe my parents had one awkward conversation with me. Maybe I went to a youth conference where they talked about saving yourself for marriage and the danger of sexual sin. But those conversations themselves seemed very separated from normal relationship and human experience, even. And so it kind of sets the precedent that all conversations about sex have to be awkward, particularly if they come from the church or the family. It's okay for the culture to talk about it normally, but we don't know how to do that within the context of church and family. So that's one reason. But I think also, sexuality is inherently a very vulnerable topic, and for many people, it links to their identity, to their feelings of value and significance and worth. And so when we talk about certain sexual behaviors, people can feel like you're criticizing who they are as people. And there's so much shame related to that that I think that adds to the fear and the awkwardness of addressing some of these issues. And so we just tend to avoid it or, you know, have confrontations that lead to conflict Rather than healing. Right.

I think one of the ways that that played out in my life, and it's interesting too, because I think that when you think about the culture in the home, it's easy to point the finger. Like, what were my parents thinking? What was my family thinking? And I remember the first time I had heard the F word and I heard it from the world, just some friends out on the street this heard this weird word and I came home and I asked my parents and I said the word. So there was a shock value there. But I'm like, hey, what does this mean? And immediately my parents were like, oh, honey, we don't say that word. And I think that the heart was right, that they wanted me to write like Ephesians 4, 29, let no one wholesome talk, that sort of thing. And understanding the nature of how that word is used. But what I learned in that moment and what I took away was that, okay, we don't talk about this. Like, this isn't something that I can say, hey, mom and Dad, I heard this. What's up with that? Can you help me understand it? And so my parents no intention of casting shame or making the culture in the household that way. But in a lot of ways, I think it's that knee jerk reaction to those things that kind of create that divisive or that shameful culture when it comes to sexuality.

Yeah, absolutely. And how would your parents know to respond any differently? You know, they likely never had a conversation with their parents about this topic. And so we tend to just repeat traditions and patterns without questioning the fact that maybe they're not effective or they're even harmful. Right?

Yeah. And I think there's definitely shame. There's shame that comes from silence that we assume because it's not talked about, it must be shameful. And I remember in college there was a stat thrown around and I have no idea if it's even remotely accurate, but they would say that a young adult man would think about sex every seven seconds on average. And that may be a little high, I don't know. But it does speak to the amount of times that sexuality is on our minds. And clearly you look around the world, we're in a sex saturated culture. I mean, it's almost constant. And yet we do come to the church or we come home and it's almost non existent. That that silence, that gap of silence, I think really contributes to unintended shame and unintended messages that we take on as people about what sexuality must mean because we hear it everywhere. Else, but not in church. And so I think that's a part of why we do the podcast and why we have, you know, people like yourself on Julie, to just say, how do we normalize this conversation without normalizing behavior? How do we help people gain some comfort around this topic?

Yeah. And I think, Julie, that's kind of the whole reason why we wanted to have you on was to talk about something that you mentioned in your book, this idea of sexual discipleship. And so can you just describe what it is and then why you see it as a need?

Yeah, absolutely. So often we hear the term sex education, and usually we talk about that in a school context. But essentially, I would say that's what even churches are trying to do today, as we're combating issues like pornography and trying to equip the church with all kinds of information about sexual issues, is we want to educate. And education isn't bad. It's important, but it's not exhaustive. Education is one conference. It's reading one book. It's studying for one class or one test. And it has very defined parameters. And it's like, okay, we check that box. We taught the kids about purity. We had a group on pornography. But an educational approach is limited because people don't know how to integrate it into their whole life. And this is what we often even see in recovery type mentality groups, is that we define somebody in terms of, are we getting rid of the symptoms instead of looking at, what does this person even think about sexuality? How did they come to those opinions? Discipleship, when you contrast it to education, is this thing that never ends. The goal isn't just to get rid of certain behaviors. It's maturity. And discipleship also applies to everyone. It assumes that everybody is somewhere on the scale of working towards a mature grasp of sexuality. It's relational. It's the whole lifespan. And I guess how I really came to think of this term, sexual discipleship, was recognizing, as I worked in churches, that most of us have been sexually discipled by the culture. So even if we go to church, the church at best has taught us what to think about some sexual issues. But the culture has trained us how to think through sexual issues. And they've given us a framework, a worldview. And so my passion is to help Christian leaders and parents understand how do we first grasp and then pass on a lifespan view of God's design for sex that ultimately can also address our temptations and our brokenness and our sin struggles, but doesn't end there.

Yeah, yeah, it just is Something. I mean, we've been having this conversation. I remember hearing Nick even use that term for the first time, you know, just a few months ago, maybe six months ago. And it's just that idea of. Because I have a two year old son and I think about his growth and his development and he's learning how to talk. And that comes with practice and that comes with conversation. And for me, and I mean, you know, our listeners know that I talk about this all the time. But becoming a dad has put brand new eyes in my head. I see things so differently and now I see growth and development and even discipleship totally different. And so I love that this is something that you're pushing forward. I love that this is something that now is a part of our language and our conversations because it's something that is so needed. And as you said, sexuality is a part of just who we are. And so if there's this untapped part of our life or our soul or our being that we never talk about and never grow in, we're never going to be a holistically healthy person. Person and be who God created us to be.

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah. I think in my mind, the distinction you're bringing up, Julie, is that sex ed teaches us the what, but knowing what doesn't necessarily help us develop maturity. That sexual discipleship encompasses the why and in some ways even the how to think. I love how you said that. So one of the statements you make in the book that I think is really, really helpful in, particularly in light of kind of where the church is at on this topic is you say that sexuality is not a problem to be solved, but a territory to be reclaimed. Tell us a little bit about what you mean by that.

Yeah, I think even as the average Christian or pastor leader thinks about sexuality, immediately their mind goes to the problems and there are many to focus on. And I know you're really addressing some problems with sexual addiction and, and pornography use, which is a huge problem. You have problems in understanding biblical response to what's happening with gender fluidity and gay marriage. And most Christians see that, again, as a problem we've got to solve somehow. Or you look at the MeToo movement, you look at cohabitation rates and divorce rates, all these are problems. And I think for the average Christian, our approach is, God help us in these problems. What ministries can address them? What groups can we form so that people can get healing? And I do believe that addressing problems is part of discipleship. But if that's our only approach, again, it's not working towards what wholeness actually looks like. And it also creates these categories of some people are broken and some people aren't, which really isn't true. We're all broken in our own ways. And so that statement that it's not a problem to be solved, but a territory that we need to reclaim is we need to recognize that largely because of the tradition of silence, we really have let the culture have the loudest voice on defining the purpose of sexuality. And it's time to say, okay, that is a tradition that has been passed down, but it's not a biblical tradition. The Bible speaks very clearly and exhaustively about sexuality, the purpose of sexual, the spiritual significance of sexuality, addressing some of the issues that we confront related to sexuality. And we need to reclaim that conversation first within the church, but then also have it so deeply embedded within God's people that it naturally flows out of us, even as we're interacting with people that are seeking truth in the world. So that's a much bigger target for us to hit. But in aiming towards reclaiming that territory, reclaiming that conversation, we will be addressing the problems not just by identifying them, but also of calling people to repentance and moving towards what wholeness looks like.

Yeah, I. I'm gonna be honest.

So this is.

This quote is fairly early on in your book, I promise you. I read the whole thing, but this is like the most powerful piece. I mean, I just felt like this was what really hit me, that it. There's this. I mean, you especially. So as I'm only speaking from a male perspective, but you watch movies like Braveheart or Gladiator or, you know, the Patriot, things like that. There are other, obviously, movies that are great in this analogy, too, but the idea of a battle and of continuing to move the line forward and continue reclaiming the land that is ours, I just. I love that imagery because it's something that dynamic in its description. But for me, it always. And this is something we talk about, just even me and Nick, that idea of always wanting to develop and always wanting to have more information and always wanting to grow so that we can help more people and understanding that as we reclaim it, we're also inviting other people into this army of, hey, we're going to take this back and we're going to change the culture and we're going to change the world. There's always going to be opposition, though. It's never. We're not. Until glorification. It's not going to be completely reclaimed, you know, and so to understand that Going into it, but knowing that there's always a fight to have. And so I just. Basically, what I'm saying is it's an awesome quote, and I really appreciate that you wrote it.

Thanks for that. And even when you mention that idea of, like, Braveheart and reclaiming the land, you know, a lot of times we look at the Old Testament as kind of physical example of what we're doing in the spiritual world. When the people of God were called to reclaim this promised land, there were times when one generation didn't fully do the job. They didn't reclaim the land that God gave them to reclaim. And that became a stumbling block to the next generation where there would be enemies that had strongholds. And I think that's really what we're experiencing today, is previous generations of church leaders really didn't understand the need to reclaim this conversation, and now there's just so much opposition and feels like strongholds. But that's also a call to us in our generation to reclaim it today so that. So that God really can break those strongholds for the next generation.

Yeah, Well, I think it's just so important that we keep in mind that when we're talking about sexuality, we're on God's territory, that he created it. It's his idea. It's. It's his realm of operation. If we start there, because I think so many people feel like as soon as we talk about sex or the issues people face, that now we're in, like, this dangerous, secular, unspiritual realm. It's like, no sex is deeply spiritual. I mean, Genesis 1, we're sexual beings. Genesis 2, we're being united as sexual beings. Genesis 3, the fall impacts our sexuality. It's just like the record of scripture involves our sexuality from the beginning. And so if we can even help a listener from today's broadcast kind of start there to go, oh, when I talk about sex, I'm firmly in the center of spirituality. Not. I didn't just leave my spirituality behind. I think that'll help people have conversations, which leads right into the next question.

So I think that people, especially this far into the episode who are listening, would be like, yeah, 100% agree with everything. But then there's still this hurdle of having conversations about sex, specifically as Christians or in the church. So the question for you, Julie, is why is it so difficult for Christians to talk about sex and then identify that? But then what does it look like to actually start those conversations and take that first step?

Yeah, it seems like everybody's comfortable having These conversations in the culture, but they're awkward again among brothers and sisters in Christ, because it seems like this taboo topic. And we don't know how to. We don't know how to have God honoring conversations that don't become too detailed, don't become too cliche, or, you know, just say, oh, you know, God covers it all. And we don't get into the detail of even what we're struggling with. So there's that balance of how to talk honestly and openly, but not go into territory that's inappropriate. And I think that's where a lot of people are struggling, Even leaders are struggling with, how do I address this in my small group or from the pulpit? Because it's just awkward. And the way that I find is an easy avenue of talking about sexual issues is to recognize that every sexual issue has underlying spiritual issues that people are more comfortable talking through. And when you identify for them the spiritual things they're struggling with that are attached to their sexual questions, all of a sudden you can get on common ground of, okay, God does speak to that. So, for example, somebody that's struggling with sexual abuse recovery, almost always you're underlying, dealing with issues like, where was God when I was harmed? Can I trust him? Does. Am I really, like, a lovable person after what happened to me? And I feel like some of it was my fault and I can't forgive myself. Those are spiritual issues. We're not even talking about sex anymore. And I think that's the case with everything. If it's pornography, it's, where do I find comfort? And what do I do with my pain? What do I do with my shame? And so if we can step away for a moment of the specific sexual details and connect with the heart of what are you feeling? Where's God in the midst of this? Where are you on your spiritual journey? Then not only do we find comfortable language to use, but more importantly, we're talking about the real issues that really drive a lot of what we experience in our sexuality. Hmm.

That's good. That's super good.

We're like, she said it all.

I know. Like, what do you. I mean, I just. I love. I love what you're saying. And I think for someone out there who wants to start having these conversations, it's gonna take. Because what you're describing in my mind would take a little bit of work of digging into what are those core themes or those things that connect and that comes with self awareness and evaluating my own perception or struggle with sexual conversations or sexuality in general. Being able to identify those in myself first. And then, you know, one of the things that we preach so heavily at Pure Desire is just the idea of leading and vulnerability. And so if you identify that stuff in you first, then starting to share that and what that does is that actually, you know, the whole, like, adage that the first through the wall is the bloodiest, like, basically, I'll be the one who gets banged up a little bit and, you know, you know, shares some stuff that, you know, maybe makes other people uncomfortable. But what that does is then raises the level of vulnerability in the room and the courage and willingness to step up. So I feel like as someone who's listening to this, that's a leader needs to understand it's going to take some self work involved in starting those conversations and to do that in a way that you're not trying to pull stuff out of people. You're actually leading first in sharing vulnerably and creating that culture where other people can step forward.

Yeah, that's so true. Thanks for saying that. Because I do think that's key. Not just being the one to be vulnerable first, but going through the journey first. And so, you know, we often say you can't take somebody farther than you've gone yourself. And a lot of people even that are in Christian leadership positions feel stuck in their own maturity related to sexuality. They have secrets that they don't feel like they can tell anybody or maybe, maybe they just are married and sex is terrible in their marriage and they don't know how to work through that. And so they themselves are afraid. Like, what if somebody asked this question or that question? I don't feel equipped. And so you're absolutely right. The first step is to say, God, you know, start reclaiming this territory in my heart so that I'm ministering from the overflow of what you're showing me.

That's good when it means taking our eyes off of the behaviors themselves. Because going back to what you're saying about the problem to be solved, I think it's the behaviors we see, whether it's in our own life or someone else. Like, well, how can we fix that behavior of pornography or lust or affairs or whatever it is? But Jesus didn't come to just change our behaviors. He came to change our hearts. He came to give us new hearts and new minds. And so sexual discipleship I think really means. I mean, behaviors still matter. But let's look deeper. Let's look at what's the motives of the heart and what's going on There and what are the beliefs and all that is the deeper work of transformation that discipleship is all about. So Julia and I know this could be a two day seminar and one that you probably give, but give us an overview of what does sexual discipleship look like. If a church or a family really wants to practice healthy sexual discipleship, what are kind of the parameters of what that will look like?

Yeah, so there really are three components to it. The first one is knowing what we believe. The second one is living what we believe, and the third is passing on what we believe. And, you know, that's, that's really what any discipleship looks like. I think most people want to engage in conversations about sexuality because they're passionate about that third piece. Passing on what you believe to their kids, to their neighbors, to the people that they see are in pain. But again, you cannot pass on what you believe unless you go through those other steps. And I think that's why a lot of times the culture will accuse Christians of being hypocrites and judgmental, because we focus so much on how do we share truth about sexuality without letting God do that deep transformational work in our own lives. And so we spend a lot of time in training on, first of all, knowing what you believe. Because a lot of Christians don't really understand in depth what God's heart for sexuality is.

We think we know, but we haven't necessarily really leaned into it.

No. Like when I asked groups of Christians, you know, what do you think the Bible says about sexuality? It's about a 30 second conversation about what you're not supposed to do and you're supposed to have great sex in marriage. And that's kind of the extent, to their understanding and the teaching, it's a list of do's and don'ts. But they can't really articulate why sexuality is close to the heart of God, what the purpose of sexuality for a single person is, you know, why God has certain things listed as sexually immoral in the scriptures, are those arbitrary lists or they have meaning behind them? And so it really takes a lot of work. And it has, in my own life of going much deeper into what is God's heart. Why is this such an important aspect of creation and humanity and why is it under such attack? And so sexual discipleship first spends a lot of time there, but then focuses on what we're going to do with that in our own lives. You know, how do we live with integrity towards what we believe? Understanding that integrity is not an all or nothing thing. It's again, it's a call to maturity. So for example, there are Christian men and women who are sleeping with their spouse and so they're like, I'm following the rules. But sex in their marriage is selfish. It creates conflict. Well, that's not the fullness of what God designed it to, to be. So there's a deeper call to integrity. And then we get to the passing on that to just the people we love and to the people in the culture and people in our own families.

I can't remember where I heard this story, this illustration that basically there was a college student who walked to class every day and he knew that he walked by one of his professor's houses. He walked by the professor's house every day to and from school. And on his way to school, he saw the professor in the window in his study, doing, doing work and studying and didn't really know much about it. And then when he came home later that night, he passed the house again and saw the professor in the study, continuing to study. And this happened for like two or three weeks. And then finally the student goes to the professor after class and says, why do you keep doing that? And he said, well, I'd rather have my students drink from a flowing stream than a stagnant pool. And for me, I just remember, well, the first time I heard that, it just completely changed the way I viewed leadership, the way I view discipleship, the way I view growth, that if I'm not growing and I'm trying to pass that on, I mean, you're talking about that as the third step. I've got a two year old son. I want him to be sexually healthy and understand what sexuality looks like in his life the way God designed it to be. That cannot happen if I just decide, you know what, I'm good with, what I know, and he's just going to have to drink from the stagnant pool rather than continuing to have God pour that into me and then pouring that out. So I just, I love what you're saying and I think it's such a key thing for so many of us that we can't just be like, okay, cool, I graduated. Now you get to just, you know, learn from me and my master's degree in this. It's like, no, you're going to need to continue studying and keep moving forward if you want to be healthy and want to pass it on.

Yeah, well, that's a great story and example. You have a. Your son is blessed.

I thank you. I hope so. More from my wife probably than me, but that's okay.

Well, I know in my story nine years ago, walking through the journey towards sexual health and then starting to share that with our congregation, I led people far more in my vulnerability and transparency about what God did in my own life and what we were learning than I ever did in just preaching about it. And I was still preaching, but I was preaching out of the experience, as you're saying, Julie, of living it. And even though it was humbling and at times maybe hard to be that honest in appropriate public ways, it was always through that transparency and vulnerability that people would say, I've learned so much through your story and your willingness to be honest about these things than I ever did, just from your exposition of a passage. And sometimes that, as a leader, can make you feel like, well, great. I guess my preaching wasn't all that good. I think it speaks to how we learn as human beings that when someone opens up to how they've lived it and what's real and even what they're still learning and battling with, there's a way in which it changes us that just getting great exposition doesn't.

Yeah, you're right. Even if you look at the culture, like I said, they're doing a great job of sexually discipling. Part of the power is that they constantly give us role models of what it looks like, for example, for someone to transition genders or what it looks like for Hollywood, you know, beautiful people to sleep around. And we know what that looks like, and we're fascinated by it. And if the Christian church wants to disciple, we not only have to teach, but we have to be examples of God's work. And that gives hope to people that I can. I, too, can be like that. And God can work in my heart, too.

Yeah.

Yeah. So good.

So moving kind of forward with wanting to pass that on. I think a lot of us come into wanting to, because I'm sure there are listeners who are like, look, this is amazing. I want to do this in my church. And I think kind of coming into it, we're going to have to overcome some misconceptions or misinformation that we have about sexuality. What are some of those common ones that you've seen in your research and your conversations and your speaking and writing? What are some of those common misconceptions that Christians have about sexuality?

Well, I think one of the most common ones is it's even an unspoken one, but it's this split between the sexual and the spiritual. And thinking that someone's sexual Behavior is like, almost like annexed from who they are as a whole person. And I think, you know, even in our culture, the way we talk about sexuality, it's like this. This specific defining characteristic of somebody, rather than it being integrated with their experience, with their feelings, with their hearts, with their longings. And so what we tend to do then is we go after the topic of sexuality instead of really letting those conversations come out of a genuine relationship with the person. And then people feel like they're projects, you know, like, oh, I have a Christian friend that's trying to convert me or trying to get me to get off porn. And nobody responds well to being a project. We want to be known and loved, and we're changed by genuine interaction with people who care about us.

That's so good. Yeah.

I would say another thing is that a lot of people feel like. A lot of Christians feel like if I don't contradict what someone is doing, that means agreement. And so they feel like in every conversation, if sleeping around comes up, or pornography or lgbtq, you name it, they have to have a biblical response in that moment, and they really cut off the opportunity for relationship in the long run, when, again, the focus is on the behavior and not on the fact that the real issue is we need Christ, and he's the one that changes our heart in every area. So I think those are some of them that people get caught up in in terms of how we try to address these issues and. And get off track instead of really trying to form transformational relationships.

So.

Good. Yeah.

I think acknowledging those misconceptions is important because we. We can just kind of wade in and a little bit like the bowl in the China closet analogy of I'm just going to start talking about sex, and we're going to be open and real. Well, there's some ways to go about it that we want to make sure are consistent with our faith. And just what you were saying, Julie. Consistent with our spirit, spirituality, and linking those well and doing it in a way that provides open doors to more conversation. Because I. And I think you're spot on that too many of the conversations we have in the church right now are they're conversation enders. Like, well, this is what we believe, and this is the way it is. And if you disagree, we have nothing more to say. Like, well, that doesn't invite ongoing relationship. And in this whole area of sexual discipleship, people will need to be able to process very real emotions, real beliefs, real feelings, and that'll take time. And that ongoing commitment to Conversation that if we just think, I'm going to quote a few verses and fix their misbelief, man, we're really just going to drive them away from relationship. And so inviting people to build relationship and see this as a process that God uses over time is really important. So Julia, in your book you claim that everyone is sexually broken. And you've talked about that a little today, but process that a little more because we have a lot of listeners. They're the spouse of a sexual addict or they're the spouse of someone that had an affair. And they may be listening saying, well, I'm not sexually broken, I don't have addiction, I haven't slept around. I'm here because of my spouse's issues. What would you say to that person just about understanding their own sexual brokenness, even if it hasn't expressed in an addiction or kind of over the line behaviors that we most commonly think of?

Yeah, you know, I would say first of all, we have a very superficial definition of sexual brokenness because we have a very superficial understanding of sexual wholeness. And so like, just to use a metaphor, if you grew up in the area era like we, we all did, where a phone was something that was in your home that had a push button and you talk to somebody and a flip, a cell phone was a flip, flip phone, all it could do was call people. And as long as it did that, it wasn't broken. But if you've ever had a smartphone, you know that, that that device is capable of doing a lot more. And if all it could do is call, you'd say something's wrong with it. It can't do email and it can't get apps. And the same is true with sexuality where if you think that healthy sexuality is all about performing sexually with someone, or even if you think it's just about saving sex for marriage, that if you do that, you're sex. Yeah, you have a pretty limited understanding of what God designed the fullness of our sexuality to be. And as God tapes takes us deeper and understanding the spiritual richness of sexuality, we start to realize that we all fall short of that. I used some examples earlier of just, you know, like, let's say it's a married couple and the guy's the one struggling with the sexual integrity issue. And the woman says, well, it's not my fault and it isn't your fault, but you think, hey, he needs to go get fixed and get his problem solved in every situation that I've ever worked with with that woman. And I'VE been that woman in my own marriage. The feeling is, well, the problem is his. But as God has gone deeper, he's shown me ways that I've misunderstood the holiness of sexuality, that I've settled for a cheap version of what intimacy is supposed to be. You know, even the attitude that sex is about a wifely duty, that is a misuse of that passage in First Corinthians 7. That's not God's design for sex. For a wife to think, well, I've got to just check a box. If you read Song of Solomon, you see what God created sexual intimacy to be is something that both the husband and wife are deeply engaged in, that are passionate about. They're serving each other. And so there's all kinds of ways that we can hold bitterness, resentment, shame, you know, just. We can withhold sex, you know, all kinds of ways that sexuality becomes twisted. And typically, we don't identify that as sexual brokenness, again, because we have such a limited understanding of what God designed this to be.

Yeah, and I love what you were saying earlier, how important it is for singles to understand this too, because really, sexual wholeness begins before I've ever had sex. That I don't have sexual wholeness just because I'm in a relationship with a spouse, that I have sexual wholeness in how I view my own body, how I understand my own urges. And for many people, I think if we embrace that as part of the definition of wholeness, we'd say, oh, I am sexually broken because I view my body more through a cultural lens and I define beauty by some standard that is outside of what God ever intended. And I don't know how to trust. I don't know how to be vulnerable with others. And when we include all those topics, there is a weight of brokenness that we go, wow, there's a lot here. And that can feel oppressive. But on the other hand, it can be the invitation into the goodness of God's design and the wholeness that he has for us when we see that whole spectrum of what's involved. So I think that, yeah, I love that. Having a more robust definition of sexual wholeness. That's really good.

Yeah. So, man, I just. I'm thinking about someone who's sitting there listening to this. You know, maybe they are the struggler, maybe they're the betrayed spouse. Maybe they're somewhere in the middle and are not really sure what it looks like to redeem sexual brokenness. So what does that look like? I mean, I know you talked about your story a Little bit in the last question. And so, like, what has been your experience and what do you see that works when it comes to redeeming the sexual brokenness we have?

Yeah, well, it's really following the biblical pattern of how we're deemed in every area. And it begins with recognizing and admitting our brokenness and confessing our sin. You know, in First John, it talks about the difference between saying, hey, there's nothing wrong with me, and I'm fine, and I'm not sinning. And John says, if you do that, you're deceiving yourself, but when you confess your sin, that God is faithful to forgive your sin and cleanse you. And I think that goes very much for these. These conversations around sexuality. As long as we're saying, well, my brokenness isn't as bad as that person or my sin isn't really.

It's not comparative.

Yeah, no, there's no healing. And so it's saying it out loud to the Lord and to a trusted friend, brother or sister in Christ, maybe your spouse, and just saying, hey, I need healing too, and I need restoration too, and. And praying, lord, would you just show us how to walk in the light? Would you show me how to walk towards wholeness? And then scripture talks a lot about the whole process of kind of killing the old self and becoming a new creation, which spiritually happens in a moment, but in reality is a lifetime of identifying the flesh that's in me, identifying the work of the enemy that tells me lies, and renewing my mind with truth. And so that, again, is all discipleship, of seeking truth, getting your hands on good biblical resources that help you understand God's heart for sexuality, walking with brothers and sisters who can encourage you on that journey. And it's a. And understanding that this is like the rest of sanctification. It's a lifelong process and a journey that we're all on. But God meets us on that journey.

One of the best illustrations I've heard, because it just. You made me think of it, is that sanctification, really, growth in any way, is not a superhighway. It's more like a dirt path that has a bunch of switchbacks and goes up and down. And there are times where you're going downhill and it's cake and sometimes you're walking.

Yeah.

Why am I doing this direction? So I think that when people go into it with that perspective, because I think overall, when it comes to sexual brokenness, I mean, I know where I was at the beginning of my healing journey. It looked like Mount Everest and I didn't have any tools to climb it. And understanding. And I love what you're saying about including other people in that, because that's how we know that we're not alone. And then that's how we. That's how we do it. Because there are going to be times where I'm going what looks like going backwards. But someone who's been on that path can say, no, no, no. Remember, this next bend is actually going to take you even further than you thought you could go. And so including other people in that is such a huge thing. So I think that's our message, something we continue to just encourage people that, like, sexual wholeness is legitimately possible and is something that a lot of us can and do experience. It's just going to take work. It's not just going to happen, you know.

Yeah, well, maybe that's an area where the Church of America, you know, in Western culture that's very individualistic. And we kind of portray this message that health and wholeness is, I'm okay. I have no problems. That that's what maturity looks like versus a maturity that's all about humility, awareness of problems. You know, we've talked about it before, how the Apostle Paul, at the end of his life called himself the chief of sinners. Like, did he become a worse sinner in walking with Christ and writing the Bible for 30 years? Like, well, no, but I think he had a greater awareness and acceptance of his brokenness. And I feel for us as Christ followers, if we could just get to that place, that my brokenness is not what disqualifies me. My brokenness is what puts me, me in touch with God's grace and healing and his power and to be willing to be broken people. Because we're not okay. And yet I know I spent a majority of my life trying to act like everything was okay and maintain that performance of everything's okay here, which didn't make it safe to acknowledge brokenness. And so I think we can help in that area. Even going to our kids and saying, you don't have to be perfect. And we don't want that environment here. We want you to know we prioritize being vulnerable and being real.

Yeah, I like the distinction between having a reputation and a testimony. And God has taught me that along my journey is that sometimes you have to sacrifice your reputation in order to have a testimony and let people see the power of God in you, in your weaknesses, in your failings, in your current struggles. But sometimes we're so like, oh, people can't know that, you know, to fame the name of Christ, when in reality, when people see our brokenness, it exalts Christ because they see his strength in our weakness. But that's a tough paradigm shift for a lot of people to make.

For sure. For sure. Well, Julie, this has been so good. I mean, love the insight. Really want to encourage listeners to check out the book. I'm enjoying it a lot and have really appreciated the thoughts and ideas. I think they're needed in today's world and in the church. And so hopefully, Julie, we've created for the listener a desire to engage in this, to go out and be a part of sexually discipling, whether it's in their families or in their churches, and they're maybe geared up to go. As we wrap up today, what kind of direction would you give them on first steps towards how. How do we sexually disciple others? How do we implement some of the things that you're talking about today?

Yeah, the very first step, again, is just for you yourself to say, where am I in my own journey and am I being discipled? And, you know, that's why we exist as a ministry. Authentic intimacy to help people on that journey of what does sexual discipleship look like first in your life and then as God is doing that in your life again, it is an overflow of wanting to share what you are learning, of wanting to share what the healing journey looks like. And I know just from the brief amount that both of you have shared that's true in your own journeys, that you are not here because you read a good book. You are here because God is doing a transforming work in your life. And that is where we all have to start. And then ask him for the wisdom and courage of what does it look like today to speak your truth? Because we can't come up with that on our own.

Yeah, I think what you're describing is when Jesus, you know, looked at the disciples and he's like, stop what you're doing and just come with me. You know, he didn't preach this huge sermon before and fired him up. He's just like, drop what you're doing and just come with me. I had a friend of mine who is a pastor, and he was telling me that that's what discipleship is. Discipleship isn't just like teaching and educating and being this, you know, basically theological or biblical giant. It's more just asking people to come do stuff with you. Come do life, come grow together. And that changed as a youth pastor. That Changed the way I did it. Instead of trying to read the Bible and try to unpack and exegete, look how smart I am to my students, I'm like, hey, let's just go to Target and get a Slurpee and like hang out and talk about life. And I think that that is what you're talking about is it's a, it's a process, but it's something we do to get not just like this top down type of I'm going to teach you and change you. It's like, let's change together.

Exactly. Yep. Follow me as I follow Jesus.

Well, I'm appreciative of that paradigm, Julie, of know it, live it and pass it on. And I think that can be a helpful kind of framework for anyone listening to say, do I know it? Have I gone beyond just God said, save sex for marriage. And that's really all I know about a theology of sexuality. And if that's where they're at, then they can lean into the know it and, and are they living it. And as you're saying, if that's not their journey yet, enter in, go on that journey for yourself. Because as we know it and live it, the passing it on almost becomes the, the outcome versus the goal. It's the outcome of a life lived authentically where I'm growing and learning and, and then it just, I can't help but pass it on. And I think that's, that is a framework I hope that everyone really holds on to after our conversation today.

Yep. Yeah. Amen.

Well, Julie, thank you for your work, your ministry, for hanging out with us today. I'm sure all of our listeners are going to benefit from our conversation today. If you're interested in hearing more from Julie, you can visit authenticintimacy.com and then also to grab her book, Rethinking Sexuality. If you just go to shop.authenticintimacy.com you can find it there. The last time I checked, it was on sale. So I would even say, go do it now, go check it out. And again, Julie, just thank you so much for what you've done and for your time here with us today.

Yeah, thanks for the opportunity to share. I really appreciate it.

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