109 – Developing As A Group Leader

Foreign.

You're listening to the Pure Desire podcast. Your safe place to find hope, healing and freedom from sexual addiction, betrayal and relationship issues. What's up, guys? Just wanted to let you know about our upcoming Pure desire Men's Conference, September 14th, Troutdale, Oregon at Harvest Christian Church. This is a one day event that's going to be a great time together. We're going to have food, we're going to have fellowship, and we're going to have some great sessions and teachings on Saturday. Integrity, how to create it, how to maintain it, how to live in community the best way we know how. Our featured speaker is Jay Stringer. We also have a sit down with Dr. Ted and other sessions that you guys are gonna love. Make sure to register and check out all the info on our website, PureDesire.org pdman we'll see you guys there. Hello listener. I am your host, Trevor Windsor and you are listening to episode 109 of the Pure Desire podcast. I'm here as always with my co host Nick Stumbo from Feel the rhythm.

Feel the rhyme, get on up, it's podcast time or bobsled time.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I thought you were going to like have the cool running shout there at the end.

Cool runnings, yeah.

Talk about a movie.

Growing up with like, it's seriously still one of my all time favorites. And who would have thought that my all time favorite quote would come from none other than John Candy.

John Candy, of all the people to.

Utter his quote at the end there about if you're not enough without the gold medal, you'll never be enough with it. Just, I mean, such a powerful statement about where we find our identity and our value, especially as someone that their whole life has battled with performance and finding my value in that, that line is just like I think of that all the time. John Candy. Thanks, man.

Rest in peace. John Candy. We miss your. Your humor.

Cool.

Well, we spent some time to get today with Ashley Jamison, our international groups coordinator for women and we talk developing as a group leader.

Yeah, I think an important topic and maybe for some even when they saw the title they're like, well, I'm not a group leader. I don't ever plan to. I hope what they'll get out of this is that principle that, and I've shared it at a lot of our conferences where Paul says in Second Corinthians that God comforts us so that we can comfort others and even kind of doubles down on it to say with the same comfort we've been given, we can comfort others and just for all of us to look at, whatever God's doing in me, he wants to do through me. And I hope if they are leading, they'll be encouraged. I hope if they're not leading, they'll think about how does God want to use my story in my life to help others? Because I guarantee you, no matter who you are, that's what he wants to do in your life.

Yep. Yeah. And it's just one of those things that as we grow, the people around us will be encouraged to grow as well. So this is a quick one. We've got some good stuff on it, so.

And Ashley Jamison offers great insights. It's of kind. Always good to have her on.

Yep. So enjoy the episode. Ashley Jameson, one of our favorite people. You are back. Thanks for being here.

I am glad to be here. I didn't know you were done talking.

Sometimes it's hard to know, isn't it?

Cut off abruptly?

Sure, definitely. So we talk a lot on the podcast about the power, the influence, the importance of leading groups in your own recovery, but then also just the benefit and the joy it is to lead other men and women into freedom from addiction, from betrayal. And really today we're gonna talk about ways to improve as a group leader or to develop as a group leader. So even if you aren't a group leader and you're listening to this, but you think that maybe this is something you wanna do down the road or you can see the benefit of leading other people, please, please listen to the rest of this episode. This is gonna be really, really good stuff. So, Ashley, let's just start with the first question, which really is leading in a lot of ways in general can be really lonely. And especially when you're leading a group of recovery or betrayal. That can also be kind of a unique niche, if you will. What can people do as a group leader to battle that loneliness?

I think first and foremost, just stay connected with other leaders that are also leading, especially pure desire groups, if that's where you're feeling lonely. Because it's good to know that other leaders are experiencing the same kind of things. And. And there's a few ways that you can stay connected with other leaders. But just for example, there's been leaders that I've talked to where I'll come on to my meeting with my RGAs and I'll say, man, I'm just feeling really like, blah. And they usually say, I'm so thankful that we have these meetings because you start to feel guilty if you're not like always 100% on fire all the time, like you were in the beginning. And sometimes it just is that you're showing up for other people and there's not this, like, crazy bubbly feeling. And that's normal, too. And it's good for leaders to know that. Staying connected by having your meetings at your church with. I like, I prefer to have the men and the women's leaders together. Just talking about your highs and lows and what you're going through and bringing forth any challenges that you can kind of tackle as a church and make sure you're on the same page. The other way is to get connected with your regional group advisor and jump onto some of those regional hangouts where you get to see that there are other people in your state or your region that are leading. There's lots of people that think they're the only leaders in the whole state, which I don't think that actually exists now anymore. I think we have groups, at least two, like, in every state, almost there. So there's usually somebody else close by. And it's good to see others that are in your area leading.

Yeah, I think that connection is super important. And when I hear this question, what comes to mind for me is why, as a leader, am I feeling discouraged? And I know for me and a lot of people I hear from very often that has to do with a burden for the group that I'm carrying that maybe isn't mine to carry, where I feel like someone in the group isn't doing well or someone's not doing their homework, or just that sense that, man, they're really struggling and what am I doing wrong? And maybe we recognize I'm carrying a burden that isn't mine to carry. It's not my job to fix people. I can't make people do their work. I can't make choices for them. As a leader, I show up, I do my best to facilitate the group, keep us on task. But at the end of the day, I have to make sure that that burden is where it needs to be, with the people in recovery and with the Lord. You know, the Bible tells us to cast our cares on the Lord, for he cares about us. And if we feel like we're carrying a heavy burden, we need to make sure as leaders, we're routinely giving that to the Lord and saying, God, I'm just doing my best, but you have to take care of this group. You have to meet so and so's needs. You have to open so and so's eyes to the truth. That they're blind to you. You have to be the one that moves. And I think that can really just help us stay encouraged when we're not carrying an unnecessary burden. And then the other piece I think about that's so important is the question of am I growing as a leader? Because if we feel like leadership is about my expertise or about having something new or novel to share every time, we are going to burn out, we're going to run out of energy. But if we're just simply being a growing person ourselves, we're on a recovery path that God's showing us stuff, we're staying encouraged, then our leadership just becomes an overflow of what's happening in our lives and we don't have to have something new. And so if anyone is feeling discouragement along with connection to others, because that's vital, would be to ask those two questions. Am I carrying a burden I shouldn't be? And am I growing as a leader? Because if you handle those two areas well, I think you'll have a much better chance of staying encouraged as a leader.

Yeah, I think the thing for me too is just the natural pressure that comes when you hear the term leader. You think, okay, I have basically. Then it becomes about your resume and what you have to offer. When all reality, leading pure desire groups is more about sharing first, being authentic and being the first to be vulnerable. And this is not easy with the type of work that's involved. I mean especially if this is the first time that you're leading and it's a new group of people that you don't know super well, you're like, here are the deepest, darkest pockets of my soul, no big deal. But the reality is that if you just start to look at it, that my job or my role responsibility is just to be the person who is vulnerable first and then that freeing up other people to jump in. I think that that releases a lot of that, those expectations that you have and that pressure that you feel that I have to perform. Because it's really not about performing, it's just about going first.

Yeah, yeah. Well said. Well, I think there are a lot of challenges to leading well. And so one of the things we'll recommend is that a leader learns best by doing so. Maybe for a year being a co leader or an apprentice leader, but for a lot of people that's going through another group to help co lead is a 9 to 12 month time commitment. So for someone that's saying, well, how else could I grow as a leader? How else could I Develop maybe in addition to being a co leader or their need to maybe as you've talked in your story, Trevor, some situations where you need a leader now. So if someone's feeling that need of, I need to hurry up and get ready to help lead a group. What are some other ways, Ashley, that a leader could develop or grow in their ability to lead a group?

Well, definitely. Attending our conference, I would say, is the number one. Attending a Pure Desire conference. You get so much information in two days. And then, of course, we have several podcasts. It's one of my favorite resources that you can listen to and pretty much hear us explain each tool, each group, problem issues, how to start a group, how to maintain a group. I mean, we have all of our good stuff on there. And then, you know, lastly, when you register as a leader, whether you've done it before or not, it helps you get connected with the right support people. And we love our RGAs and our staff love to help. So we coach and figure out what are your particulars in your church or your situation and really try to help you figure out the best place to start in leading groups and starting groups.

Yeah, I think too, that, like, as you just, I mean, kind of going back to what you said, Nick, as you develop as a person and as you grow in your own recovery, you actually will find yourself in positions where people look to you for hope or for answers or for like, okay, I want what you have. How do I get that? And so I think that understanding that even if you're not in group, even if you haven't been in group, if you're putting time and energy into self awareness, into understanding the wounds and the trauma that you carry and understanding the old bad habits and what are new ways to pursue health in life. You do things like that, it's gonna be inviting. And so I think the reason that I'm even saying this is that you'll see that's actually how you develop as a group leader. So maybe you've never led a group before, but if you're doing that, people genuinely are gonna flock to you and say, okay, can I do stuff with you? Because this is awesome. And I want some of that too.

Yeah. What comes to mind for me is just making sure you dive into resources. I mean, maybe it's reading the book Pure Desire again. I know last year I read that for the, who knows, third, fourth, fifth time, and it was like, man, there's such good stuff in here. And it reminds me of the principles and the foundation, or maybe it's reading through the opposite workbook of whatever group you're leading that if you're leading Seven pillars reading your wife's Betrayal and beyond book. Well, not, not hers. If it's her answers in there, you might need her permission for that. But, you know, understanding. Okay, what do the women's side go through? Or vice versa? What's the men's group talk about? Or some of the other, you know, books that we publish through Pure Desire or resources we've talked about in this podcast. Like, like Jay Stringer's book Unwanted or Julie Slattery's book Rethinking Sexuality. I mean, all of those things that just develop our mindset and our kind of our mental energy. For this topic. We, we will naturally bring more to the table and feel more equipped because we've studied now, we don't want to make studying the answer. We don't want to just be a brainiac about the problem. But it does have a way of building into our toolkit when we've got some of these books that we've processed and learned from. So engage with the resources. And then I'd say, too back to the first question. Connect with other leaders. If there's a church in town that runs groups or someone in your church that's done it before, offer to buy them lunch, offer to buy them coffee, and just sit with them and pick their brain. Say what? What do you think makes for a good group experience? What's worked well? What hasn't worked? When did a group derail and why? What do I do about problem group members? Yeah, because we can learn so much from one another. And even if, quite frankly, even if you feel like that group leader is a bit of a bad example.

Yeah.

If you just listen to them, you'll learn a lot from their bad example of why they burnt out or why their groups didn't run. I mean, you can learn that way, too. So just taking advantage of those opportunities can really help.

Yeah. So I think anything in ministry, I think anything just in this can apply across the board. It's very easy when you do things over time that you get into just bad habits that you're like, well, basically you fall in love with the way that you do things. And I think that that actually can be a detriment to anything, any leadership role. But even in this, there are probably, and I know that I am guilty of this. Even just last night at group, I apologize to my group members telling them, you know what, like, I fell into this bad habit and I'm sorry about that. Forgiveness was given. So I think that it's definitely something that happens. Basically, how do we avoid as group leaders falling into those bad habits? Like, what are ways to kind of keep us looking at true north when we're leading these groups?

Yeah, I think the example you gave is great. Usually because we do conferences and podcasts and things like that. Usually when I come back from one, I'm like, oh, I've gotten my group way off track. I've been talking too much and advice giving and, you know, we're going off on tangents. And so it's like several times a year I come back and I'm like, okay, refresh your guys. And I'm usually the first one to blame. And so. Well, not always, but a lot of the times. And so just doing that, like looking at yourself and realizing that we all get in ruts and create bad habits and really burnout, I think just makes you such a bad leader because you start just showing up and maybe cutting corners or, okay, let's do a double lesson because I'm getting tired. And so I think taking breaks in between leading is really, really important. Even if your church desperately needs leaders, I will take. Usually by the time I'm done leading a group for 10 or 11 months, I'm like, I'm never leading a group again. And I know that I always say that at the end because I'm just so tired and I want my night back on the week and. And usually about three to four months, I start collecting people again. I know that sounds creepy, but like, in my life, you know, I'm like, okay, this person definitely needs a group. And then when I get to about four people that are in my circle that need a group again, I'm like, it's time. I know I have what can help them because I've been through this and I know it works. So just taking long breaks until you are refreshed again and you can do it again fully and give them a good experience again. And then for me, I like to flip flop materials because I'm an addict of every kind and have been betrayed and all of it. I will go from betrayal and beyond to eight pillars. And now I'm leading Unraveled and I've done Behind the Mask and I'll just flip around and keep it fresh so I'm not continuously going through the same resource. But to do that, you have to train up new leaders so that they can take over the groups you've already started.

Yeah, it seems like a word you used in your question, even Trevor. So key in that word being humility, of having the humility to approach the material. And we talk about it a lot to say you got to trust the process. Well, if you don't have humility, you're not going to trust the process because you'll always think you know a better way. Totally. And so that's a thing I encourage people to look at is to say, if there's something in the group guidelines, you don't understand why that's important, you need to ask someone until you understand why. Or if there's a lesson that you're like, ah, this lesson's pointless, let's skip it. Well, in humility, approach a more experienced leader or someone at pure desire and say, why do we do this lesson? What are we getting out of this? Because it could be you're just missing a perspective that could really help. And then having that humility about group guidelines and a willingness to come to your group and say, hey, we've gotten into a pattern where none of us are filling out our faster scale or our group check in. We're just winging it. None of us are going to learn and grow as much that way. And so I'm recommitting and I want to invite you to recommit that. We're going to follow this guideline of writing out our answers because that's going to change us. And just being willing to acknowledge that like you did in your group, Trevor, I think is huge because it's, it's natural, it's human nature that we realize, boy, we haven't had a group meeting that ended in two hours in a month because we just keep going and going and coming back, say, you know what, we need to be efficient with our time and we're going to end on time tonight. And I think everyone can appreciate that. If in humility you lead the way, others will follow.

I think too with that. It's just, and this is, this has been my experience. I've now been through pillars, we're finishing my third time. And watching people like, so the guys are in my group, it's their first time and seeing them experience really the material and the revelation that comes like, it makes it afresh for me where maybe I become more calloused or like, because it's my job, I hear this stuff all the time, or we talk about these things all the time. But then when you see that, that that person experiences a new, like, level of recovery that they never had before or a truth that they never thought they'd ever carry it almost. It basically encourages you. Don't ever skip anything. Like, don't skip that lesson, because you never know the type of revelation someone's gonna have. And honestly, some of the things that are the most powerful, most meaningful things I've learned have come from someone else sharing about their first experience in understanding the trauma or the wound, or understanding what triggers them and why, or understanding what areas of their life are so difficult that caused this addiction. So for me, it's something that you just have to remain. I like the word just remaining humble, but being open to. You're gonna learn a lot from leading people and them doing the work. And so make sure that you don't skip anything and make sure that you continually go back to, as Ashley has coined it, like, you become the guardian of the guidelines. Always go back to the group guidelines and always make sure that you're checking in with the resources and other groups.

Yeah. And I think what you might have said something about this in the first question. Even if you've been through the material a ton of times and you've let it, don't just be there as the leader to show people that you're, you know, to help people go through, but try to find what issue in your life currently you can work on. And so when I started Unraveled last week, it was like, yeah, I'm maintaining my sexual health and integrity and, you know, making sure that is good throughout this resource. But at the same time, because I haven't relapsed in over five years, this time through, I'm going to be really focusing on my eating habits and my anger and applying this to fresh things that I know currently need work in my life. And. And so that will be my. What I hone in on, you know, with this. With this go round.

That's good.

Yeah. Yeah. It's just acknowledging that we are all people in process and recovery is not a destination we arrive at. Recovery is a journey that we're on and for our whole lives. It's. It's really God's invitation for us to be sanctified, to be, you know, to use a big churchy word, to become more like him. And maybe initially what got us down this road is because we knew sexually we were out of alignment, but as we're finding health there, then it's what other issues that contribute. Ego, eating, how we spend our time. I mean, emotions, anger. And any way we can keep it new is so, so valuable. So, Ashley, maybe for a lot of people listening. With so many group leaders, some are in a position they've led for a while. They've maybe got other groups at their church now or others in their community. And they're looking at, how could I become, in a sense, a leader of leaders? How could I encourage others to step into leading and how could I be a blessing or encouragement to people who are leading? What kind of recommendations or advice would you give to someone about how they might encourage other leaders or encourage people to step into leading?

Yeah, I think kind of if you're the IT person, which is, you know, what we see more often than not, it's not usually the lead pastor running groups, but it's the person who has the passion or the need that started it. And so not only having your eyes open as your leading group for who has the potential to lead or who.

Wants to lead next, we really recommend people lead a group or co lead after they've been through it once, but be willing to help in a way that's not going to burn you out. So for me, when I started groups at our church and I would be the one to facilitate the leader meetings and anybody that I thought had maybe the desire or the potential to lead, I would invite them to those meetings just so they could start feeling more comfortable and confident and seeing all the support and kind of being connected with other leaders. And then several times I would offer to start a group and kind of help them out to get it going. And that really worked well, as you know, because there was a lot of fear, especially if you're starting groups at your church and you don't have this big base of leaders to pull from, Just kind of getting them going to where they're really comfortable with the group and then letting them take the reins in it was. Was good. And then just to remember that we, you know, the staff and the RGAs at Pure Desire, we love helping. And so when leaders or even people who are scared to lead know that we're not only going to coach and support them, but then any hiccup they have in group, any, any resource they don't understand, that will support them the whole time. And they can, you know, if they're not sure of a decision to make between group members or, you know, arguments or anything at all, that they can bring all of that to us and we'll help give our best advice to them as well.

So one of the guys I just was, last night, I was having a conversation encouraging one of my guys to lead groups and how, really, how well, he's doing and how good of a group leader I think that he could be. And the approach that I took and by all means, this is not a perfect approach, but I kind of have peppered through this is just my experience as a group leader and just kind of opening the door a little bit saying here's been my experience, here are things that I learned, here's the benefit of leading groups. And then really honestly there's gotta be a time where you just let people make that decision. Don't push them, don't pressure them. Because it's the same kind of thing where you almost take ownership of like I'm only as good of a group leader as how many people lead groups after that were a part of my group. And I think that, and I'm saying this out loud so that other people understand I need to hear this. Like if all my guys that are in group right now, that we finish next week and nobody does recovery work ever again or never becomes a group leader, that doesn't mean I'm a bad group leader. And so to just understand that sometimes you just gotta be open handed and let people make that decision over time. But I think that one of the best ways we can is just share our experience and the benefit and value that we've seen from leading group and allow our basically our story in that sense to encourage people to lead it.

We may have some people listening that are in a position to be a leader of leaders. They're on staff or they have some influence and you could think through how can you catalyze the leaders in your own church by sending them to a conference, whether Pure Desire or something similar, by getting them a book to read, by taking them on a retreat where you're doing some leadership training as a group. I mean, if you're in that kind of role, just to say, okay, this is a group that needs me to pour into them, what could I do this quarter to bless them and help them see they're valued as leaders and pour into their lives a little bit.

Yeah, yeah. I was going to say kind of, you know, to go off of what you were saying, Trevor is if you're, if you're able to let people lead, then some leaders have a hard time feeling like their people are in the perfect place to start leading. And so to not be afraid to let people lead and to not.

There's no such thing as a perfect place to lead. Like you're never going to be. Yeah.

Like, you know, there are people who think you have to Be in this perfect position and have it all together to lead. And that's so not how it is. And I always remember that one of the counselors that was kind of above me or she was a mentor at church, and she always laughed, saying, gosh, when, you know, Rodney said he was going to let you lead, I was thinking, you're throwing this little poor baby wolf, you know, baby to the wolves, and they're going to just tear her up and chew her up. And it's like, it ended up working out really good. But it's so much because I had a lot of support from church, and so we didn't know what we were doing, but we were willing to just step out there and realize that you're not going to have it all together. And, you know, the church paid for me to go to Pure Desire conferences and to try to get as much training as I could, but it's not going to be perfect. You know, you're working with imperfect people, and you have to start somewhere so not to be afraid that you can kind of release this little ministry into somebody else's hands, and it's okay.

Yeah. So we probably have a number of listeners, both male and female. And, you know, if you are familiar with Pure Desire, you know that we offer groups that are for betrayed spouses, for struggling spouses. And so the question that really, I think a lot of people have is, is there a difference between what a women's betrayal group leader needs and then also a women's addiction betrayal group, and then same thing for men. Do they all need, like, the same focus and the same development, or are there some specifics and some differences that each one should focus on?

Yeah, I think that the distinction is kind of what you said, that it's really not what do men and women need differently, it's really what do addicts and spouses need differently? That's kind of the distinction I see working with group leaders all the time. All of the stuff we've talked about as far as being connected with other leaders and having support at your church and meeting with your, you know, church leadership and going to conference, all that applies to every group leader. The one thing that I do see is that starting from the ground up, it usually is a little bit easier for the spouse groups, the betrayal groups, whether it's male or female, to kind of get started with somebody who maybe hasn't had any experience going through group that just three years, three and a half years working with people, that just seems a little easier. And then the addict Groups, whether it's male or female, they tend to do better when they have somebody that has been there and has some sobriety, even if they're not as familiar with the Pure Desire material, but that they've had that in their history and they've gained sobriety, and then they can help start the group at the church. That seems to work better. And so more often, if you're the spousal group or the betrayal group, it's a little easier to just get some people and start going through the resource together, if that makes sense.

Yeah.

But, yeah, just stay connected. Get training.

Yeah. In addition to that, I think what we see at a lot of churches is there will typically be a network of Pure Desire groups under one person. So if you're that one person that's overseeing some men's and women's groups, you know, if you're male, it's to ask the question, well, who is another female or a woman that I could kind of partner with to encourage the female leaders? Because I just think there's something to be said for a godly woman who's experienced in leadership pouring into those women, just like there's something to be said for a godly man that's pouring into other men, and vice versa. There's definitely a way that a godly male leader pours into women in a unique way. But just to have you think through, if you are the only person, whatever gender you are, try to link with someone else that could pour into those leaders. So if you're the woman overseeing a network and you've got men's groups as well, well, who's another godly man in the church that. And maybe they haven't gone through the whole Pure Desire process, but they understand leadership. They understand leading their family. Well. And just how could you create some linkage there so that the leaders are with someone occasionally that is really experienced in what they are and is speaking their language, Because I think there's just a lot of health that comes from that. So look at how do you raise up male and female leaders and not just have one man or one woman doing all of it?

Yeah. I think one of the things Ashley, you mentioned toward the beginning was just the idea of getting together with men and women and having that connection. I think that that can be helpful for this, too. I mean, be careful. Like, if there are a lot of leaders that are still in the midst of crisis or are really, you know, early on in their recovery and health, be careful that you don't just, you know, create Like a storm when everyone walks in. But if you have some people that are further along, I just think that that encouragement of understanding the other side, and we've talked about that already a few times on the podcast today, is just that idea of understanding both sides. If you're a struggling spouse, like, look at the material, understand a little bit of the material of the betrayed spouse, but also have those conversations and then vice versa.

Yeah. And I think in that opportunity, if you have men and women together to ask some strategic questions, like, you know, what do you wish we knew about the women's groups? Or what, what do you think we could do better in the. In the men's groups? What. So that kind of cross pollination of sharing ideas and. Because when you're in a group with the men and they're talking about what their wives are coming to them with, you may feel like, well, I wonder if the women leaders know this. I wonder if they're aware of this aspect. And how can we help couples? By having the message they hear from both the men's and women's groups be from the same foundation or platform. And so use it as a way to just make all your groups better. Because there's good communication, obviously not sharing anything confidential, but between leaders, I think you can share information not about specific things, but just the group environment that can make all of them better.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. We had a couple instances where that really worked because as we know that the safety plan in Seven Pillars is in the intro of the book. It's not in the chapters. So a lot of men don't do it or like just don't even know it's there. So then when the women get to their safety plan in their book, they're like, when do our husbands do this? And so that's the kind of stuff where when your leaders are meeting together, it really brings. It really brings your peer desire ministry at your church to like another level where everybody's on the same page and you can share that kind of stuff. And then if you have Top Gun or Behind the Mask or Living Free or anything like that going on in church, then it's an opportunity for leaders to kind of do other things to keep their fire fresh. Like, so we've had guys that have finished Seven Pillars, and then the youth leaders are saying, we need some guys for Top Gun. And so maybe the guys go from Seven Pillars to then go help some teens at the age they were when they wish they would have gotten some good help. And so it really just does a lot for your church ministry.

Yeah. Well, this is really, really good stuff, you guys. And I think the point of this podcast is just to encourage better group environments, stronger, healthier leaders. And so, as we look to wrap up today, Ashley, and we'll start with you. What final tips or encouragement would you give to someone who's maybe starting to lead groups or has been leading groups and they just want to do a better job? How would you encourage them? As we wrap up today?

I would say if you're not connected, get connected. If you're not registered, register. If you're not sure that you can lead or you're just kind of tossing it around in your brain, whether you're having complications or you're just not sure if you want to step out, then just reach out to us, and we will walk through that with you and talk to you and answer questions, and we just love to help. So if you're feeling called or a desire, even if you're not sure, then reach out to us.

Yeah, I think, man, I just. I continue to go back to the humility stuff. Just understand that you're never gonna arrive as a group leader. And maybe you are the greatest group leader that this world has ever seen. And if you are, like, come hang out with me and teach me.

Let's put you on the podcast.

Yeah. Even if you are, you never stop growing. Understand that it's always something that you need to, because, man, you're gonna have new situations, new people, new problems, new trauma. There's always going to be something new, something different. Maybe you have heard all of it and have been through the gambit, but understanding that as you continually develop, that just encourages and makes your groups better and just allows more people to experience more freedom at a greater depth. So just continue developing, and that's going to take a lot of work. You can't really sit on your hands and just wait around. You have to be active. So that's just my encouragement.

Yeah. I would say it's avoiding that pressure of believing that as the leader, you have to have it all together, that you have to be perfect. Because there is always something in our lives we can look at and say, boy, here's an area. I'm still struggling. And maybe it is going to a counselor, yourself, or meeting with a mentor or going to another leader and saying, boy, I'm really stuck in the emotion of fear, and I can't figure out why. As you lean into that, just like you're saying, Trevor, it's going to make you a better leader. And I think when I see leaders get off course or when I feel I've gotten off course in my life, it's because I just, I start ignoring the little things because I feel like, ah, I know what I'm doing. I've been through all this, I'm doing fine. And the truth is we're still human beings that we need each other no matter how long we've led. So maybe you've been leading for five years and you're feeling a little stagnant. Well, look into your life and say, God, why am I stagnant? What are the issues that maybe you're inviting me to lean into that because I'm over that, you know, or I'm not in a group in recovery anymore. I've not paid attention to some things that he wants me to. And I really believe if you lean into that, as we keep saying, if you're a growing person, you'll be a great leader. And we want to just help with that through the podcast and our resources. And so hopefully today we'll all think a little bit about God, what are you doing in my life? And believing that as I lean into that, it'll make me a better leader.

Yeah, Being a group leader is not easy. I think that all three of us know that. But it's a noble task. Like, it's something that is not. I think it's something that people need to be reminded. It's not just about helping other people. It's that actually helping other people is a part of your recovery. I'm learning so much just teaching a two year old how to be a human being, you know what I mean? You just learn different things. So growing as a group leader is gonna not only help you, but it's also gonna help the culture of your church. It's gonna make it more of a safe place to come to come be a healthy person that has issues that it's okay to not be okay. So you guys are awesome. I think that this stuff is gonna be great for people out there. So thanks for your time. Appreciate it.

Yeah. Thank you, Trevor.

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