110 – What Parents Need To Know About Porn

Foreign.

You're listening to the Pure Desire podcast. Your safe place to find hope, healing and freedom from sexual addiction, betrayal and relationship issues. What's up, guys? Just wanted to let you know about our upcoming Pure desire Men's Conference, September 14th, Troutdale, Oregon at Harvest Christian Church. This is a one day event that's going to be a great time together. We're going to have food, we're going to have fellowship, and we're going to have some great sessions and teachings on Saturday. Actual integrity. How to create it, how to maintain it, how to live in community the best way we know how. Our featured speaker is Jay Stringer. We also have a sit down with Dr. Ted and other sessions that you guys are gonna love. Make sure to register and check out all the info on our website, PureDesire.org pdman we'll see you guys there. What's up, people? I am your host, Trevor Windsor, and you are listening to episode 110 of the Pure Desire podcast. I am here, as always, with my co host, Nick Stumbo.

This is Jeopardy. And here's your host, Trevor Windsor. I mean, Alex Trebek.

Um, dude, real talk. How long has he been doing Jeopardy?

A long time. I was talking to my kids about this the other day because it came on and I said, you know, Alex Trebek was old when I was a kid. Of course, when you're a kid, you think everyone's old, but that guy has aged well. I hear he's sick right now, which is really sad because he's kind of an icon and such. The kind of guy you just like watching him because he's so friendly and, yeah, love Jeopardy.

Um, so this is maybe just more a testament to my age, but Alex Trebek is more popular because of Will Ferrell on SNL playing him and then another guy on SNL playing Sean Connery. And their dialogue in the Jeopardy. Skit is just so good. It still blows me away. The knowledge that people have and they can. Well, even just the talent to answer your question or answer the question with a question.

Yeah.

Anyways, today you and I sat down with Heather Culp, our content manager, our neuroscience guru, basically. Yeah, she's just a stud. We really appreciate her. We sat down, we talked about what parents need to know about porn.

Yeah. I think a big topic and one that impacts all of us even if we don't have kids, because we live in a society where we're going to interact with kids in one way or another. And it occurs to me this could also be a podcast that maybe a listener has been referred to because they're a parent and they're finding stuff in their home and they're saying, what do I do? And a friend says, oh, have you heard this podcast? So I hope today encourages them. I know it's a topic that can be overwhelming, but I hope it gives them some really practical ideas of what they can do, whether they're in the complete proactive side. They're just trying to. They've got younger kids and they're trying to think preventatively, or maybe they're in the middle of a crisis and they are clueless what to do that today I'll really give them some solid foundation to move forward on.

Yeah. I think, as you can already tell from the title and our intro, it is important that you know about what's going on. So this is a great episode. Really enjoyed our time, so enjoy the episode. Heather, welcome back to the podcast.

Thank you. Happy to be here.

Yeah, we're really glad you're here. Thanks.

So for those of you who don't know, Heather works like, just over there, just one office away. So when we say we're glad you're here, what we mean is that you showed up to work today.

Yes. You're welcome.

Walk across the hall.

That's right. For those of you enneagram people, Heather's a five. Okay. So that just. Let's put that into perspective. All right, so today's episode, we're talking really about what parents need to know about porn. And I think there's a lot going on. So let's just kind of start off with this. Porn has come a long way in, really how it's distributed, like, really the graphic nature of it. But basically for parents, and they could be on the spectrum of they know exactly what's going on, whether it's because of their struggle or not. Maybe they have no idea what's out there in the world. What are some trends that you see in the world that we're seeing in the world when it comes to porn?

So it's interesting because today, when you think about the way that our kids get information, what do they do if they want to find out anything about anything? They go online to get it. Whether they're curious about something or whether they're doing homework for a class, whatever it is, they're going to go online to get it. And that's really what parents need to keep in mind when it comes to this issue about pornography, because it's one of the things, too, that after we're done with this episode today, I think that parents will have a greater awareness of really, you know, how to stay in relationship with their kids, but then also, where are their kids going to maybe find out something that they didn't intend to find out when it comes to pornography and really Internet use. And so I think that one of the things that, like when you talk about the trends that are out there is that people need to just be aware of what's happening culturally that might cause kids to be more curious about something than they would have been otherwise. So a perfect example is the TV show Game of Thrones. So that show, really super popular, but it also talks about incest in a way that might cause a kid to say, man, what does that look like? And to search out incest porn when normally maybe they wouldn't have otherwise, you know, and that's just a simple example. The other thing too to keep in mind for parents is that when we talk about the different trends, like you like, when we think about porn, historically it was more just about nudity or it was about more conventional sex. Whereas today online you can find everything. You can find group sex and same sex and forms of sex you don't want to see and more violent and abusive sex. And so I think that parents need to be aware of really, when we talk about trends of, like you said, the graphic nature of what now constitutes even normal porn is nothing like what it has been historically.

Yeah, this is such a good and deep question. I mean, we could do a whole podcast just on these trends because it's really significant for us as parents and adults to think about what our kids are facing that is different from what we faced. And we grew up in an era, even though we're on the younger side, that was still image driven. It was pictures. And yeah, there were videos that could be rented, but it was. You had to go to a corner store. There was a lot of risk of exposure of someone seeing you. So for most people, the battle was around images, or even in the early days of the Internet, waiting for a single image to download over dial up, versus the accessibility and availability for kids. One of the things I heard that I think about a lot as a parent is that a kid in their bedroom with a cell phone could see more pornographic images in one night than their parents saw in a lifetime of viewing magazines, because you're able just to go from image to image, scene to scene, and that binge nature could just flood a person's system with all kinds of information in even just a couple of hours. So we've gone from being very image driven. The other thing being very image driven to being video, that it's video scenes, and that that's what's grabbing people's imagination because they're watching it play out in front of them, and they can go from the intense climax shot one after another after. And so it's not maybe how we've thought of traditional pornography, of more soft core, that there's a story and there's buildup, and certainly that exists. But what's being just proliferated on the Internet is the hardcore scene after scene after scene that can just flood someone's brain. And what Heather was talking about, too, is something that I'm hearing called the porn paradox. That never before has porn been more popular and never has it been more violent. And. And we're really training our kids, if they're exposed to pornography, we're training them that sex and violence go together. Yeah, there was some great research done a few years ago on the top 50 adult films from that given year. And they found that in 88% of the scenes, there was violence against women in the scene. And what's even more troubling than that percentage is that 96% of those scenes, the woman's reaction was either positive or no response at all. And to think about that, porn says violence is wanted or expected from a man towards a woman. And then we're horrified by what we see happening in society. And we have to have these honest times to say, well, we're. We're just seeing in society what's being reflected in pornography. So I think for parents to take those realities seriously of the video nature, the availability, the violence, that those are the trends that I think honestly are just going to continue. And the last thing I would say, because again, this could be a whole podcast, but the trend that we need to be very serious to pay attention to is pornography is actually driving advancement in technology, that it's because of the money. We're talking billions and billions of dollars being made. And when there's a new technology that can be used for porn, the billions of dollars that can be made will necessitate someone's going to do it. And so being more aware of how there's pornographic video games that are being produced in mass, some of them being marketed to look like innocent games, but then having all kinds of, you know, sex and nudity, virtual reality, and really that whole virtual reality world and the accompanying gadgets that could go with it, at the root, most of those have been developed with pornography in mind. And so when you're looking at technology for your kids, I think we really have to ask the question every time, how did a billions and billions of dollar pornography industry intend for this to be used? Because there's a likelihood my child could inadvertently stumble across those purposes and get sucked into that. And I know we don't want to think that when we're buying a new gaming system or a device or some cool VR thing that our kids are into, but there's an industry that is seriously targeting older teens and even younger teens now to say we can make a lot of money off them, so let's hook them early and as parents just to be wise to that. Because if we're aware there are ways to successfully guard against that and help our kids be wise to that and we don't have to live in this just perpetual fear of oh my gosh, they're out to get my kids. But if we take seriously the threats that are there, then we can respond appropriately to help our kids navigate those successfully.

Well, I think that that's going to be really the gist of this episode. A really common theme is going to be keep your eyes up, keep your head up and pay attention because this stuff is not going to go anywhere. And so it's always going to be present. You know, unless, unless God like enacts on it in incredible ways. This is going to be around for a long time. And so yeah, I mean I just, even just listening to both of you, it's like I'm, you know, I'm further back on the road of parenting. Like I'm just starting it, understanding that it's not going anywhere. I can't just put it on cruise control and hope that health is going to be a part of, you know, my family and my kids lives. I gotta be intentional about it.

Absolutely, yeah. So one of the reasons we're concerned about the impact on our kids isn't just that viewing pornography is bad or wrong. And I think morally we would say there's obviously things that are bad and wrong about it. But we want to look more holistically at the impact it has on us. And research is showing over and over the impact that pornography is having on the brain. So Heather, talk to us a little bit specifically about a kid's brain. What kind of impact does pornography have on a kid kids brain and on their brain development?

So this is a great question because this is one of the things I think that parents don't necessarily recognize unless they, you know, grab a book or 10 books on really what's happening developmentally with their kids and with the changes in their brain. And it really is an amazing perfect storm, if you will, the number of things that are happening in a kid's brain and body, really, from starting as early as 10 years old up into their young adulthood. A couple key things that are happening that kind of work against each other. One is the limbic system. So the limbic system is the very center of our brain that is the pleasure and reward center of our brain, and it produces dopamine when we find something that is new and exciting, something that makes us feel good. So, again, it has that emotional component to it. And so when you have kids who stumble across porn, even if it's accidental, that first exposure can be traumatic, but it also can be really exciting. And it can be fearful and exhilarating and euphoric and have all of these feelings connected to it, which then again causes them to want to want it, to crave it in a lot of ways.

And the limbic brain holds on to all that. Right. Just seals it into their thinking.

Yeah. And the limbic system is fully functional by the time that they're six years old. So, again, this is a huge part of their development. The downsides for kids, and especially for teenagers, is that their prefrontal cortex, the area of our brain that really helps us with impulse control and decision making, is not fully developed until our mid-20s. And so this is kind of that conflict that you see with kids when they almost seem fearless sometimes. They're pursuing. Pursuing reckless behavior. They're doing things that are risky, and parents are looking at them thinking, what's the matter with you? Why are you doing these crazy things? And it's because their braking system of the brain, their prefrontal cortex, isn't engaged yet. And so that's why it really does this. This time in their lives makes them more susceptible to addictive behaviors because their limbic system craves now what they experience and the feelings that they get, the high that they get from pornography. And there isn't the part of their brain saying, no, you shouldn't do this, or this is going to hurt you. That part of their brain isn't really working yet. And so those are just a couple of the things that are happening really, with kids during this developmental phase.

I feel like it's such an important piece to understand as a parent, to know this stuff, because if you know, then you can have those conversations. Education is such a big piece. Obviously, we talk a lot on the podcast about being Healthy. I mean, just in our ministry, we talk about that all the time, that your health is the most important thing. And I think a part of that toolkit will also be understanding the statistics, understanding neurochemistry, understanding where the world is at and where it's going. But, like, if you don't understand this stuff, it's gonna be really difficult to engage in a conversation with your kid about it.

Yeah. You know, one of the brain guys that we quote a lot, or I should say Heather quotes a lot, is Norman Doidge and I heard speaking recently and they quoted him, and I thought this was so significant as it relates to our kids, because this is a thing that he writes in the brain that changes itself. He says sexual tastes are molded by an individual's experience and their culture. These tastes are acquired and then wired into the brain. We are. Now, this is the part that really got me. We are unable to distinguish our second nature from our original nature because our neuroplastic brains, once rewired, develop a new nature every bit as biological as our original. And what that says to me is when our kids are exposed to something, it's writing a message into their brain that feels as natural to them as what they were born with. And I think we're seeing in our society as kids, especially a young generation, says, well, I was born this way, or I just do what I feel, or that's what I want. Not realizing that many of those things were created by what they've been exposed to and what culture has taught them. And so our brains are made to learn by modeling, by what we see we do, what we see in others we do. And obviously, we're not exposing our kids to seeing people have sex in a healthy way. We hope they learn that as part of human development. But in pornography, they're being modeled. This is what sex is. And that can imprint on their brain in a way to just say, oh, well. Well, that's who I am. That's what I want. Not realizing that that's actually a byproduct of what they've been exposed to. And so there's really significant stuff at stake here.

Well, and it's interesting too, that a lot of parents will act like, well, it's really not that big of a thing. They might look at it for a little while, and then they're going to get bored with it. And unfortunately, because of what's happening in their brain, they're not going to get bored with. Really triggers this cycle the same way it does with drug users. They're going to pursue it. And when they don't get that same feel and they don't get that same high from it, then they're going to crave it even more and be less satisfied. And so then it's going to cause them to seek out something that is more risky and more exciting and more taboo in order to get that same high.

Yeah, yeah. This same speaker, by the way, is Clay Olson, the founder of Fight the New Drug. He talked about studies for men who are being treated for sexual dysfunction. And there's recent research that has come out among boys aged 16 to 21. So this is young men that are just arriving into their fullness of testosterone and manliness. That 53% of them were saying they had some kind of a sexual dysfunction. And there's no doubt there's the obvious correlation between what their brain is consuming and they're getting more and more and more. And that supernormal stimuli to their brain now is impossible to mimic in real relationships. And they're not capable of the kind of relationship they want. You say, but if that's happening to 16 to 21 year old boys, just what you're saying, Heather, it's not something to get bored with. The brain will just keep consuming and consuming and consuming until it literally is beginning to destroy itself.

Yeah, absolutely.

So, you know, we talked about the trends and now research, but porn isn't just on the Internet or isn't just websites anymore. I mean, with the development of the smartphone people, you're walking around with porn in your pocket. Right. That's what we talk about a lot. And so what are some apps, other places that parents need to be aware of in the presence of porn?

Yeah, well, and this is one of the things too that a lot of parents think, you know, not my kid, not not my house. They're not doing this. And I think that, that parents need to be aware of, of really how easily kids end up on porn sites, whether it was their intent or not. And the other thing too is that, and I know that this is something that I learned when my kids were in high school that was really quite alarming. And this was 10 years ago. So one of my kids, I was helping him with a book report that he was doing, he went online to the White House.com and pulled up a porn site, you know, because that's not how you get to the White House. You know, you get to the White House with a dot gov. But porn companies, they're intentional. They are super intentional. And again, that was 10 years ago. And so just thinking about how they are using social media platforms, you know, which are really popular today to hook kids, is really alarming. I was reading recently some research that Dr. Gail Dines had done on Instagram and Snapchat and just how you can have a kid who's on Instagram and how they will either use a specific emoji or something, you know, or a hashtag, and it will link them to a porn site. I mean, unknowingly. I mean, really, it's almost anywhere. Because if you look at even the way, you know, Facebook and some of these other platforms that they are posting what somebody else has posted, and you never know what kind of links are in there that are going to lead your kid to a porn site.

Yeah, yeah. I think what Heather was saying about pornographers are smart and they mimic names and titles to be close to, but not quite the same. So teaching our kids health about how they do Internet searches and where they do Internet searches and keeping that public and the families aware of, there's just some basic health there. And then also things like on YouTube, there's suggested videos, and if you get into some terminology that's even close to what's in pornography, those suggested videos can get pretty raunchy pretty fast. So as parents, we want to make sure we've got Safe Search turned on. And there are some things that thankfully YouTube does have in place, but you have to activate them. YouTube comes wide open and unlocked. You have to go into your settings. You need to make sure it's Safe Search so that those videos aren't even accessible. And just to be monitoring. I know that, and I got some of this from Ashley Jamison, that from time to time, as parents, you need to just Google as a parent, you know, in the right way to say, you know, apps that teens are using to hide porn, because there are. There are calculators. They look like a calculator app, but underneath it, it's some sort of sexting or porn site. The nature of the Internet is it'd be hard for us on this podcast even list out what they are, because probably by the time many people heard them, they would have changed and altered. And that's part of the pornography industry's approach, is they know that a lot of what they do is skirting the law and it's illegal. So as soon as they get found out or a certain segment gets caught, that just disappears and it gets recreated as something new. So as parents, we have to be willing, maybe it's even on a Monthly basis to sit at our computer and in an educated way, pull up. Because there are other parent watch groups that are dedicated to this that they want to help us be informed and culture reframed as Gail Dines organization. That's a really good one just to be connected to because that's the work they're trying to do is how do we protect our kids? Another one is called Protect Young Minds. They stay pretty relevant on a lot of those things. So that we're just connected to what is out there to tempt our kids. And like you said earlier, Trevor, keeping our heads up, staying wise to it. We can't cover everything. I mean, we could never produce a list of every dangerous app. But we can be wise to what's out there and what are our kids exposed to, because that can open up the right conversations at home.

Well, we gotta be aware too, of the mainstream stuff. Like you look at the three right now online, the three biggest places people go for like streaming, like movies, Netflix, Hulu, Amazon prime, and then maybe a fourth would be YouTube. That the people who make these movies and who. Cause now they're all making their own original content. And that original content, a lot of it has nudity in it and sexuality in it because that's a part of life for the world. And that's also something that will attract viewers. And so you have to be aware because we talk about apps. I have the Netflix app on my phone. I have the Hulu app on my phone. And it's very. It'd be so easy to access and to just search erotic films on Netflix and find it. And so, and here's the thing too, and this is my, you know, we got that like, hunter gatherer type of mindset. You know, growing up, when I was looking at pornography sites, I would find ways around the structures and systems my parents put in place, even Netflix. Now you can get rid of your browsing history. You can get rid of your browsing history on every single platform and on your device. And so be aware that it's like, oh, it's just Netflix. We all have an account. I can see what my kids are watching. Not necessarily. And understand that if you have an Amazon prime account and you're not using the video service, that doesn't mean your kids aren't using the video service and finding stuff on there too. And so just you gotta be aware and you gotta keep your head up with that stuff too. Because it's not just porn trying to find its way around. It's like it's Mainstream on these platforms. And not that these platforms are inherently bad, but it's there.

Yeah. Well, I think it brings up the question of what is our approach as parents. If our approach as parents is policing, we can't police well enough, often enough, and it puts us in an awkward situation where we're looking to catch them. There is a level of guidance and guarding we need to do, but the nature of our relationship to our kids needs to be conversational and relational about helping them ahead of time understand what those dangers are. Because that's what I'm finding. My kids are right in that era where my 14 year old, my 11 year old are moving into the age groups where they're aware of sex and kids that are talking about it, but we're able to have conversations. And I'm really excited just to see. I feel like their kids brains are bent towards health. They don't want to engage in something that's weird or abnormal or they don't understand. But if we don't have conversations, they are more likely to seek it out and be curious. But as we have conversations and they'll say things like who would do that? And like, yeah, it is confusing, isn't it? But here's why. And letting them engage their curiosity with us rather than online where now they're stuck, as you were saying, Heather, in that weird push pull between I'm kind of grossed out and weirded out, but yet I'm drawn to it. And what's. Maybe there's something wrong with me because when we have to process that alone, it's going to take us to unhealthy places and we can have conversations with our kids and we can be part of their development. Like I said, I think there's something in our brain that wants to be healthy, our kids want to be healthy and we can help them be a part of that.

Yeah. In Digital Natives, Brian and I, we talk about how the same way that a parent teaches their kids to drive defensively, that we need to teach our kids how to use the Internet defensively and just making sure that we as parents are well educated, that we know what's happening out there, but that we are passing on that information and having those conversations with our kids in a really safe, honest environment.

So many of our listeners, or maybe only some, when they're thinking about kids and pornography, the Internet, they're maybe imagining their 16, 17, 18 year old kids. But we know from research and data that it's younger and younger ages of kids that are being exposed to pornography. So at what age is it most common that kids are being exposed to pornography? And how can parents maybe be aware if this has happened and they didn't recognize there was already time to have these kind of conversations?

So the average age, based on research, is around 11 years old. But keep in mind that that's the average. So for some kids, it can be younger. In fact, it can be much younger than that that they are first exposed to pornography. And that's a great question about how do we know. You know, how do we know if our kids have stumbled on something? A lot of times you can tell in their behavior, because we know our kids. And so some things to look for in our kids is really kind of simple in a way. But if you notice that your kid randomly is isolating, especially if they're isolating from normal activities that they enjoy, from even family events, from even isolating from hanging out with their friends, those are good indicators that maybe something's going on and you need to have the conversation with them. Other things that would show up are things like decreased performance at school, a lack of concentration. It's interesting how many times that kids, when they get involved in porn and really just what's happening in their brain. Their dopamine levels are high, but they are, again, not able to concentrate, and it really disrupts a lot of their normal functioning. Are they not able to sleep as well? Are they sleeping or are they sleeping too much? Just different things like that. A good one. And, Trevor, we talked about this a little bit, but are they secretive? Are they doing things that. Like with their phone and computer that they don't want their parents to know? In fact, are they using password protectors or are they doing different things?

Like if you walk into the room and your kid is quickly hitting buttons and closing the computer.

Yes, absolutely.

Like I used to do.

Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And things that are secretive. I was reading a research study recently that said that over 70% of kids, and these are kids ages 13 to 17, that they admit that they have done something to hide their behavior from their parents. And so, you know, and a lot of times it's even. It isn't even, you know, using their own computer or their own phone, but a lot of them have friends that their parents don't have locks on things. And so they can easily get to porn sites through other devices as well.

Yeah, well. And I know this will sound really crazy and revolutionary, but one of the ways you could know if your kids have been exposed to something is by asking them. Yeah. And again, Goes back to that idea of, am I just policing my kids or developing a relationship? If you don't feel the freedom to walk into your kid's bedroom and into their life and say, hey, you know, we've talked about some of the dangers on the Internet. I just want to know, honestly, how are you doing? And start from that perspective of even kind of giving them the opportunity to talk about it. Like, have you accidentally come across anything or maybe inadvertently something came up? Because I think they may be hesitant or fearful of your reaction. And so it could come up that way, but you kind of allow, like, hey, I'd rather get them talking than to be like, have you done any of those things we talked about that are bad? Our demeanor and approach to it is so key. But just developing that kind of relationship because it can create, even for them, that expectation of, oh, mom and dad want to talk about this. And when we do, they don't just. And I know I'm jumping into a question further down the road, but they don't fly off the handle. We have a conversation and we try to figure out, okay, how'd that happen? And what could we do to make that not happen? So I think just being willing. And it doesn't have to be a daily conversation or even weekly, but on occasion just say, hey, let's be honest. How are you doing? And how can I help? And what's going on that maybe I don't know about that. You wish I did. I think giving our kids that opportunity. And I would say this because I would guess if my parents had done that, my initial reaction would have been to blow them off. If they'd have kept doing it, there were things I would have gone to them with, but because I never heard that from them and I again, we've had great conversations in my family. We've talked through a lot of these things. So there's nothing new here for them. But had. Because that never happened. I didn't know how to go to them with the things I wanted to. So open the doors to those conversations. And I think that's the best way to find out if they've been exposed.

Right. I think with that, too. And this may sound like I'm contradicting you, I don't think that I am. I think to some degree you also have to give it space. If you've asked maybe two or three times in like a month or two month span and they haven't come to you yet, it doesn't mean that they won't. So don't just feel like I'm completely failing my kid. You have to make sure that, like. Because sometimes there's that, like, is the door really gonna stay open to this conversation? And so I think what you're saying is right on. That you continue to kind of revisit it. But just don't. Don't just don't just check out and don't just decide we're not going to have this conversation or even go like, you must be looking at porn. That's why you're not talking to me. Don't do that. Allow space and time and trust that as you're building that relationship and creating that culture in your relationship with your kid, that eventually they can walk through it, and they probably will if you continue to open it.

Absolutely.

So what if. I mean, because now we kind of understand how to identify if our kid has seen porn. Now if our kid has seen porn, what are the first steps? Like, obviously, I think about my experience, and it was like stern talking from my dad, and that was, you know, obviously didn't work out super well. But what are the first steps we'd encourage parents to do when they find out that porn's in the picture with their kid?

So. And I totally agree, Nick, that we need to talk with them. This was one of those things that. I mean, I have three boys and they're all adults now. But I remember vividly the day that I got a call from the principal because my son was going to be expelled or suspended from school for viewing porn at school. And this again was when a classmate of his brought a page from a magazine from his home and showed my son, and they got caught. And than this whole ripple effect of behaviors. And so my son was, you know, suspended for a couple days. But you know what? I look at that as such a great opportunity for us to create relationship during that time because he had a lot that he needed to talk about. And it gave us that opportunity because the other boys were at school and we had the home alone and for us to talk about that, you know, he didn't quite know how he felt about it. And it was also wrapped up into. In these feelings of, you know, betrayal from his friend and being being really accused of something that he didn't do. I mean, he didn't bring the porn to school. It was forced on him.

Embarrassment.

Exactly.

People know that's what he's suspended for.

All of the above. And so. But again, it wasn't something that I, you know, he wasn't punished for it. He was I mean, we went out to lunch and we did fun things and, you know, because it was something.

That I should get suspended more often.

It was a great experience for us both to build relationship and for him to have an outlet to talk about how he felt about this experience. And then also as a parent, for me to say, you know what? This is why God tells us that we need to protect our minds. And really, I was able to talk more freely about God's intent for sex and within the context of marriage. And it was so great. But again, it opened that doorway of. And that doorway has always been open since just being able to. This is safe. This is something I can talk with my mom about. This is something that is safe to talk about in our home. And again, it wasn't something that was, you know, condemnation and shame, but it was about, let me love you through this.

Yeah, yeah, I totally agree with that. We need to ask good questions. We need to make sure we understand the whole situation and not jump to conclusions. The thing that comes to mind for me, as parents, we really need to check our emotions.

Yes.

Because it can create all kinds of things. Fear, anger, embarrassment. And the words that come out of our mouth could be, how could you do this to me? Or what's wrong with you that you want this? Or how could. And. And all of that is shame, shame, shame and affirms. Yep, something wrong with me. This is sinful. It's horrible because I'm horrible. And. And maybe we're not even intending to communicate that. We're just reacting out of our emotions. So we need to make sure we've worked through those things and really put our kid and their needs first and go in with some understanding. Say, I recognize this is. There's attraction here, and I know what it's like to be curious. And I think that's the second point I'd make to parents, is you really need to make sure, even as you try to walk them through maybe the dangers of what's happening or help them see the wisdom behind avoiding that kind of stuff is to really work on affirming the sexual design God's put in their life to affirm. God designed us to find these things attractive. God made you curious. God made you to find a naked body appealing. Like, those things aren't wrong. Now what we do with them, our response is really important. But if we can help affirm our kids, that sexuality and spirituality can go together, that sexuality and your faith can go together, and the things that they are drawn to, the curiosity isn't something weird or different or unique about them. It's part of the human experience. And so if they can develop some comfort with their sexuality, then they are going to be more likely to come to us with other things because they feel like, oh, this is part of being human. This isn't part of being a bad boy or a bad girl.

Right.

You know something that me and Amy were reading, we were reading a book called Parenting by Paul Tripp. And one of the things that he talks about is basically the difference or the idea of ownership versus stewardship. And so I think if we're thinking about just like overall health of a parent, understanding that if you view your kid as something that you own and they reflect you in the world, then you are going to take this personally. Then you are going to, when you catch your kid and say things like how dare you? How could you? It's because you're allowing your kid and how they do in life to reflect your own identity. And that's not stewardship, that's ownership. And so it's just something as you guys are talking, even just to encourage myself to understand that my kids performance is not what dictates my value either, understanding stewardship, I'm going to take a different approach. I'm going to take that relational approach and try to understand how do I help this kid live the most healthy and most holy life he can or she can because it's what's best for them rather than how can I get them to stop making me look like a terrible parent?

Yeah. So important.

Yeah. So think about the words that are coming out of your mouth that they're affirming that they're understanding. And yeah, you're going to guide them into some wisdom. But creating that environment where it's okay to be real and okay to be messy and okay to walk through hard stuff is going to serve you so well as a parent in future conversations. So keep that in mind as you go into it. And Heather, what about this angle if someone only has daughters? Because I think we do feel like, well, obviously for boys and all those hormones and we got to be aware of that. But if someone only has daughters, do they need to talk to their girls about porn? What kind of approach do we take if we're in a daughters only kind of situation?

Yeah, that is a great question. Because my answer would be absolutely. You know, there's something about even girls today and the way that porn is affecting women is really an interesting dynamic. It's changing the way that women view themselves. And again it's starting when girls are young, when they're in high school or even earlier. It's one of those things too that if you look at it from a social construct that nobody wants to be out of the know, you know what I mean? And this is so true when it comes to even the socialization process of kids today. And so even if you have a kid who maybe has personal conviction that porn is wrong, but they might look at it still because they don't want to be that kid at school who doesn't know what porn is, you know what I mean? There's such peer pressure around it that even if they are not looking at it for their own personal gain, but they just want to be in the know, they want to, you know, blend in, then they're going to look at porn. And in fact it's a huge percentage of kids, it's over 90% of kids that it is part of their daily dialogue with their friends is talking about porn. And so it needs to be something that parents are aware that this is just a reality of their world today. And, and again, not shy away from those conversations but, but have those conversations with, with your girls because it's changing the way they view themselves in fact, really in a detrimental way because so many young women are looking to porn to try and figure out who they are, what they're supposed to be sexually, what men expect, you know what I mean? And so, and they're getting a very distorted, tainted view of what that is from porn.

Totally.

And you have to understand too that silence is almost the worst thing you can do, that silence on the topic. When a woman struggles, or a young woman struggles with this, because we hear language about men, specifically men struggle with this, boys struggle with this, boys will be boys type of stuff. When it comes to sexuality, it just doubles the shame. Like you're double down on it and your silence is what actually is creating that.

Well, and I think for our daughters especially, I mean for our sons too, but especially for our daughters to help them understand the links between pornography and the outcomes of it in our society of violence against women and sex trafficking. And I mean, I know my 14 year old daughter is hearing some stories of girls around her age that have had issues with sex trafficking or being caught up in something and not people she knows, just the stories she hears and that her sense of like that is so wrong, like how could that happen in our world? And to help connect that. Well, that is often rooted in pornography and how women are treated there. And it gives her I think more respect for her own body and her own worth and dignity because she can see the tragic outcome when that isn't respected. And. Yeah, so I think of that angle and. And with our daughters, especially for all the dads out there that are listening, your ability to affirm your daughter's beauty. Sorry, I didn't know that'd be emotional. How important your role is in affirming your daughter's beauty. Because, I mean, the research is there, even from a secular standpoint that says girls are looking for that affirmation from a male and if they're receiving it from their dad, even just comments of, man, I'm so glad you're my daughter. You're so pretty today. Those words have huge, huge weight. So I think that's a huge role that husband or that dads play and just encourage you to think about that. I can have a role in defending my daughter against those things just because of how I treat her. Totally. Yeah. We've got a huge role to play, and not just by going, hey, what are you looking at? But helping build up on the positive side, that part of their brain that then doesn't need to find affirmation somewhere else.

Yeah. And, dude, thanks for being real. I appreciate that. That's.

Yeah. I don't know how that'll translate on a podcast.

Hey, like, just knowing that, like, I think what I just take away from that, too, is, like, if they understand how much you care about them, because you can't just assume that kids know how you feel about them. You can't. Like, as an adult, you can't just assume that you know how people feel about you. And so just the importance of communicating and being a part of their life on a daily basis. And not just in how well are you doing, but in the every facet of their life, like, being able to walk alongside them and do life together. Because, let's be honest, we're just as sinful as our kids. Like, maybe we figured a couple more things out because we're further down the road, but we need just as much Jesus as they do. So, yeah, this has been awesome. I mean, I'm getting a lot out of this episode alone. I think what I would just ask at the end of you guys is just, what do parents need to know? What are, like, final encouragements we would give them in this conversation? If they know that porn is a possibility for their kids, what else do they need to know? What are encouragements you'd give them?

I would say that, remember, it's about Relationship. It's about relationship. It's about relationship. You know, their behavior. Exactly. Their behavior is secondary to relationship. And so as a parent, you know, if you are, you know, having to deal with some of these issues with your kid, and you can be proactive instead of reactive, and you can have the approach that this isn't gonna be an if conversation. This is a win conversation when they come to me or when they are exposed. And it's not just one conversation. It's ongoing conversation. And even if it's. I mean, if you can see that your kid is struggling and you don't know how to help them, it could be that you go to them and you say, you know what? I can tell that you are hurting over something, and I so would love to help you with that. And I hope that you find that I'm trustworthy, you know, and that we take that humble and vulnerable approach with our kids. And really that remembering, too, that porn isn't necessarily the issue, you know, it could be that they're struggling with something else, and that porn is just a symptom of what they're struggling with. And so, again, if, as a parent, if you can remember that it comes to relationship, really, it comes down to relationship. And how is it that I can walk through this with my kid and stay in relationship with my kid? That's the goal.

Yeah.

I think for me, this area might feel so big and scary and overwhelming, it's tempting to try to just avoid it or stick our heads in the sand. And my encouragement to parents would be to say, do something. You're not going to do it perfectly. You're not always going to do it well. But if you keep coming back to the Lord and keep your heart in it, doing something is going to be better than nothing. You know, we routinely ask at our conferences how many of you grew up in a home that talked openly about sex, that it was safe to talk about sex. And, you know, in a room of 100, there will be one hand. And I just think about, you know, as a parent, if my kids are in that room, someday, gosh darn it, they're gonna be able to raise their hand even if we don't do it perfectly or sometimes it's awkward. It's like, we're gonna engage and we're gonna ask questions and we're gonna read up on it, and we're gonna just make it part of our life and our parenting. And I think that engagement will mean more to your kids. Again, you don't have to be the expert. You don't have to always do it right, but if you keep that heart right and say, I want to help, you're gonna make a difference in your kids life. So I know it can feel big, but if you do something, you'll make a difference.

Yeah. And I mean, I think understanding too, that your development as a human, a holistic, healthy human, is going to communicate a lot to your kids. Whether you are like word for word telling them or talking to them about what you're learning, or you're just modeling what it looks like to be someone who's developing, that goes a long way. Knowing that mom and dad don't have it all figured out and it's okay when I'm gonna be 30, 40, 50 years old and not have to have it all figured out, like, cool, I think I can do this. It just goes a long way. You know, sometimes on the podcast we have episodes where it's like, you just know it's good and it's way better than you thought maybe it was gonna be. This was a big topic. We really only talked about seven questions.

We're scratching the surface. Yeah, better come back.

I think this is a really good starting place. I think a lot of people, whether you are like me and have young kids, whether, you know, Heather, you've got kids now that are grown, whether you're in that season or in between, just understanding that this is a topic you'll have to circle back to and we will definitely circle back to on the podcast. So appreciate, appreciate the tears that were like that flowed because of it. The real, the raw, and then also just being honest and vulnerable.

Thank you both.

Yeah, thank you.

Yeah, good to be here.

Thank you for listening to the Pure Desire podcast. If you like what you're hearing and want to keep up with the podcast, please subscribe, download and share. You can also rate and review our podcast. The more reviews we get, the easier it is for others to find the podcast. If you'd like to support the message of hope and healing in developing sexual integrity, go to PureDesire.org give and for more information about the ministry, check out our website, PureDesire.org and you can also follow us on social mediauredesirepdmi. Once again, that's earedesire pdmi. We'll see you next time.