111 - Group Leaders & Disclosure

Foreign.

You're listening to the Pure Desire podcast. Your safe place to find hope, healing and freedom from sexual addiction, betrayal and relationship issues. What's up, guys? Just wanted to let you know about our upcoming Pure desire Men's Conference, September 14th, Troutdale, Oregon at Harvest Christian Church. This is a one day event that's going to be a great time together. We're going to have food, we're going to have fellowship, and we're going to have some great sessions and teachings on Saturday. Integrity, how to create it, how to maintain it, how to live in community the best way we know how. Our featured speaker is Jay Stringer. We also have a sit down with Dr. Ted and other sessions that you guys are gonna love. Make sure to register and check out all the info on our website, PureDesire.org pdman we'll see you guys there. Welcome back, listener. This is your host, Trevor Windsor and you are listening to episode 111111 of the Pure Desire podcast. Here with me is my co host as always, Nick Stumbo.

You gotta know when to hold them, know when to fold them. Oh gosh, should I keep going? Know when to walk away. Very good.

Kenny Rogers.

I thought that'd be too much. Before your time.

Yeah.

On a CD called, well, probably on a lp, you know, an album called the Gambler.

Yeah. So that, that is for really that I feel like all the people who enjoy country and our old school country fans really like that.

It's a classic one and I thought it was appropriate today's topic because that song is all about wisdom and knowing, you know, when to make the right decisions. And we're talking a lot about that in this episode on disclosure.

Sat down with Rich Moore, our international men's groups coordinator. And he is just a guru really when it comes to group and group leading. And we talked to him about group members or group leaders and disclosure.

Yeah. And this was in conjunction with an episode we did a little while back with two of our clinicians, Tyler and Sherry Chinson. And really the reminder that the preferred method of doing a full disclosure is with a licensed counselor. And we want to continue recommending that. But this episode is in recognition that for some couples, that's just not going to happen. They're going to end up doing a full disclosure on their own. And so we, we wanted to think through how can we equip group leaders to be an encouragement and be an effective part of that process.

Yeah. So we will make sure that there is a link in the show notes to episode 106 where we really covered the big topic of disclosure with Tyler and Sherry Chinson. And yeah, just enjoy the do's and the don'ts and some encouragement that we have today for group leaders. So enjoy the episode. Rich, welcome back. You are back. Another episode. You're like a veteran now.

Getting there.

Yeah, yeah.

A few of them.

Pull that mic down a little bit. I feel like I can't see your face.

The masked man camera.

That's right.

I know. I get called sometimes on the phone. I get called, oh, hey, you're a celebrity now. I'm like, no, sorry, celebrity.

Why are you celebrity?

Just being on the podcast. They're like, wow, now I know you. I could put a voice, you know.

And it's like, what do you say to people when they're like, you're a lot bigger than I thought you'd be? It's like, thank you.

You're a lot smaller than I thought you would.

Most people don't assume, right? I mean, you got a deep voice, but they don't assume someone's gonna be six, seven. You know what I mean? Or however tall you are. How tall are you?

Six, seven.

Okay. Yeah, See? Right on. So bitter that I'm not just taller than I am. We're just gonna move forward because I really.

We should do this.

I'm the shortest one in the room. I like it. Okay, so we're gonna talk about disclosure from the perspective of a group leader. We had another episode that we will talk about also. We talked about in the intro with Tyler and Sherry Chinson on disclosure, but this one is more just from a group leader's perspective. And so at this point, if you've been a group leader, you have probably been through a disclosure process. Whether that's good or bad, you've been through disclosure, and you'll probably have that experience to share. But that said, when you're preparing your group members for disclosure, because, you know, if you're talking about men or women in group, disclosure is a process of each. How do you prepare or really start that conversation with your group members?

Well, you know, the first thing I tell the guys in group is, don't go home and tell your spouse right away. You know, that's the one issue we come into so many times as, you know, is the spouse, man or wife is going. Or husband or wife is going to want to know everything up front right away. You know, the process of being in group is getting to understand your story. Having the guys learn to write out their story or the addict, whoever's Struggling.

Yeah. Right.

Is to write all that out so we get to understand everything about his story. And then as they get closer to disclosure and they start pinpointing that, we can highlight stuff, you know, have them tweak it a little bit because it's not about, you know, we want to tell them we're not giving detailed information. It's just, we're just helping them along the line. But the most important thing I tell them is as we get to the point when their story is getting to that point where they're getting close to being ready.

Yeah.

And always refer out to. If you're in counseling with peer desire, obviously you're disclosure as part of the counseling process, but to do it with somebody who's trained and counselor highly not recommend doing it as a group leader.

Yeah. And I think that's something you're going to hear us say probably several times in this podcast, is that if someone has serious doubts, concerns, fears that what they share could create a divorce or separation. That's why we have licensed, trained counselors in the area of sex addiction. And as a group leader, that's one of your primary roles, is to say, I really encourage you to go through this with a counselor. And a counselor could really help you guys with this process. It can be much, much better. And you know, one of the things we do at Pure Desire is do a disclosure process of counseling where it's not our full 12 month clinical program, but a six week version of that that is just aimed at helping a couple through the counseling program. But as we recognize for some people, they're going to end up doing disclosure on their own. And so that's why in this episode we're just trying to think through, okay, how do we prepare ourselves? What do we do? And the other things I think about for group leaders, I think one of the themes as a you want to just come back to often is that idea of trusting the process, encouraging your group, hey, it doesn't all make sense to you because you've been stuck in a place where you haven't been able to help yourself. So trust this process, trust that many, many other people have gone through it. Trust that it's been developed over many years and a lot of experience that what we're doing isn't just shooting from the hip. There's something that's been proven to be very, very effective. So trust the process. And hopefully as a group leader, you've been saying that many times. So that when it comes to disclosure, you're just repeating that same Theme of trusting the process. And I think also the power of testimonies that for you as a group leader or very often there's someone else in the group that has done some form or version of full disclosure. And for them to say, yeah, it's hard, but listen to what it's done in our marriage, listen to how it helped us. And that's the final thing I think about, is it's our role as group leaders to cast vision to say, here's why this is worth it. In the seven Pillars of Freedom workbook. Pillar seven, lesson one is on disclosure. And I love a stat in there that says that before disclosure, only, like, 60% of those struggling with addiction think disclosure is a good idea. So, you know, less than two thirds. But after disclosure, you know, as they've gone through the process, you know, over 90% said it was a good idea. And it is one of those things, you can't really see the value of it until after you do it.

Yeah.

And.

And so casting that vision as a group leader to say, this is going to create a foundation of truth in your marriage. It'll be hard, but it's going to expose everything, and it's going to lead you to a place in your marriage that you've never been before, because the level of intimacy and trust that can grow over time is beyond anything you're currently experiencing. And so those are the kind of things I try to do in groups, to just say, yeah, it's hard, it's not fun, but here's what it can lead to, here's what it's done in other people's lives, and here's how you can trust that process.

Yeah, I. It's funny. I was listening to, and I was thankful I did. I listened to a podcast this morning, and one of the things that was said is that exposure breeds intimacy. And I just loved that. I thought, wow, like, how awesome is that? We're gonna record this episode? And that's. This is what I was just listening to, But I just think that that's so true, because what you're doing is you're casting that vision or showing that image of what your marriage could be by. As a group leader, what you're doing is. And I've used this term before and got made fun of by Nick, but the aspirational identity, like, you're basically saying, hey, this is how your marriage can be. This is what your relationship could look like. This is how your family could change. And so, like, pointing to the outcome, not necessarily how difficult the process is going to be. And I'm going to echo exactly what I think both of you are referring to is the idea of sharing your experience, how important that is, sharing your story. Because it's one thing to say, hey man, you really got to do disclosure. If you've never done disclosure, but if you've been through it, they know that you're not telling them to just do something out of a checklist or a to do list. It's this is what I've been through and I'm on the other side and have experienced because not disclosure. I want to make sure you say this like you're not lying about it. You're not saying that everything's gonna be great if you disclose. Not necessarily. Like it's not all gonna turn around. Maybe. But, you know, even the episode we did with Tyler and Sherry, there's only one marriage and 12 years of their counseling that hasn't made it after the disclosure process. So making sure that you're really, really clear, it's going to be really difficult. But if you go through that difficult season, there's beauty ahead that you can get to.

Yeah. I think one thing to add to that is what I tell guys is part of the disclosure process is getting this stuff off your chest. It may not in the right way. In the right way.

Not just emotional vomiting.

It's now that you don't feel. Feel like you have this secret now. Everything is out there. You have nowhere to go but up. You know, now it's like, okay, I can. Like you said, it's like, okay, I can take a deep breath, I can move forward and then we can start working on the process. So it's, it's that relief of saying, okay, I finally have let everybody know.

Right.

You know?

Yeah. I think the way I've heard our counselor say it is that truth is not what ruins a marriage. It's the continual lies, deception, and cover up. And so if you're not willing or going through a process of full disclosure, you're actually saying, no, I'd rather stay in the lies and the deception. And that's the very thing that will undermine your marriage. So truth can be hard, but it does have a way of shaping us and transforming a marriage for the good. And, you know, here at Pure Desire, we've heard so many stories and testimonies of just how God takes those moments of real brokenness and creates something beautiful out of it. But rich, it is, you know, kind of come back to this. It's one of those areas when Someone's on the front end of it and they've maybe spent decades hiding some of these secrets. There's going to be pushback. You know, why bother? Why bring up the past? Some of this is ancient history. What she doesn't know won't hurt her. So there's going to be pushback from group members. So how can a group leader prepare themselves for that kind of questions and pushback?

That's a tough one.

We don't want to scare you away.

Sure. You know, it's. I like what you said, we talked about, about the testimonies is that's part of the process. And when we share our testimony and get everything out there for these guys in group, part of that is just basically letting them know that eventually this is where you're going to be. We're full disclosure. I always tell guys that this whole process, I mean, the process is great in general in just going through the material. Once you have the full disclosure, there's this whole next level of freedom because now you're not hiding some of this other stuff that may not directly be a part of your history with your spouse, but it could be stuff in the past that is going to be on there. But pushback in general, I haven't had a lot of it. It's more fear. I have had guys say, you know, if what they don't know won't hurt her. And I always tell them, I said, well, if you get. Especially for single guys that are getting. Then they're engaged, they're getting married. And that's more of the pushback that I get back is from the single guys who are in a relationship moving forward, excuse me, is I always let them know because they know their girlfriends are in a betrayal and beyond group. And I said, would you much rather have them know everything up front now or 20 years from now when you get married and now you're gonna be facing a divorce because you didn't, you know, huge part of it.

There's even so much power in if she knows or if you're. Because this is. Again, can be anybody, man or woman can be. Can be in this situation, if your boyfriend, girlfriend, fiance, knows what has gone on in your life, has the full disclosure and still chooses to marry you. There's so much power in that. It's like, look, I. You don't have a version of me. You have me. You know, everything that's been going on in my life, you know, where I'm at, you know, the backdrop to my life. And bro, I wish that happened before I got married, like, you know what I mean? Rather than having to figure all this out and then almost reveal this other side of me that wasn't known before, where it's like there's just this, like, you chose me, even though you know all of it. That's powerful.

Yeah, well. And I think taking time to confront that lie of saying, you know what, what they don't know won't hurt them. Essentially you're saying it would be better to live in a false reality than in the truth. And if you're believing that, you're essentially accepting a non biblical worldview, you're not believing that God can be trusted because he would call us to live lives of truth and honesty and openness, not out of a shaming way, but because God says that's a better way that to live in reality, to build a life based on truth and the trust that grows out of honesty is a better way. And so we've got to be willing to say, it's not what I share with her that hurts her, it's what I've done. And so I've already done the thing that hurts her, the sharing. It is just what is needed in my life so I can grow. And a question I will ask group members, I'll say, if you don't open up these doors, if you don't have full disclosure, are you more or less likely to repeat these behaviors? And I think the truth is always, well, I'm more likely because someone doesn't know. It's easier to slip into it again and again. And that's part of the full disclosure idea is let's bring it all into the light so it can all be dealt with, so that you can be free, not just to punish you or harm your marriage, but so that there's a better future. And going back to what you said, painting that picture of the better future, it is more likely if you deal with it rather than try to hide it and ignore it.

Yeah, yeah.

And I can tell you just from experience, being involved with this for 25.

Long time.

Long time.

Yeah.

With having your story out there, having gone through full disclosure many times, in a sense, just having, you know, like I said, my story out there and people know everything about me, there's this freedom that I never have to worry about my past because everybody knows it.

Right.

And which what's great is because if for guys that are in that spot, the only thing they have to worry about is from. Especially if you get married. Well, if my wife knows everything Then it's just from that point, moving forward, she already knows my history. Now it's just going to be disclosure while I'm married, or, you know, that part of it. But there is this, the sense of freedom that if you can't get past the full disclosure, you're never once. I never. But in general, you're never going to experience this real freedom that pure desire can give you because it's just part. It's a hard part of the process.

Yeah. Oh, for sure.

Yeah. Yeah. I've also asked the question this way, like, what happens to things when you bury them? And anything you bury, unless it's a seed, because seeds are made to be buried and then give new life. And that's a different context. But everything else you bury decays. It gets worse, it gets smellier. So that idea, it's my past, or it's, you know, it happened five years ago in our marriage. What's the point? That buried thing is still there. And the more it rots and decays, it's impacting you. And I think when we're on the front end of full disclosure, and we haven't done that, we maybe can't even see how much those secrets, those deceptions, the things we've just chosen to ignore, how much they're affecting our relationships. And that goes back to what you said, Rich, that when someone does get that off their chest, when it's out there, I mean, I've heard guys talk about the sense of lightness, of freedom, of, like, I feel like a different person, my outlooks are different. And again, it's one of those things that's hard to describe until you experience it. And so if you can listen to enough other people describe that and go, boy, maybe this is a drag in my life more than I realize it might help motivate a group member to say, I'm going to go through this process no matter what it takes.

So we get to that point, right? In a group where your group members are now exploring this idea, or maybe even you've talked them through the fear of disclosure, what does it look like as a group leader to guide your group members through disclosure?

Well, we kind of talked about it a little bit in the first. First question, but really just to walk them through their story, get them to share their testimony and sense in a group. And part of the homework is sharing their sexual history and group and walking them through that, preparing them, but at the same time making sure if they're not in counseling, like Nick mentioned, we have the succession disclosure process to get connected with a licensed counselor. Right. Pastor highly, again, recommend not doing it as a group leader. I've been through a couple of those with, with couples, and they're not fun. And one of the things about doing a disclosure as a group leader, potentially, because we're not licensed, we're just a volunteer group facilitator, there could be potential legal issues come out of a full disclosure. So that is highly recommended to do it in a counseling setting.

Yeah, I think one of the things I'll say in group is how it's in pillar seven for men. It's in pillar seven for a reason. We don't recommend it be the first thing you do because we want you to know your story. Have processed a lot of these things so that when you do full disclosure, it's from a place of insight into your own life, not just shooting blindly. And we've talked about this on other podcasts. There are reasons a disclosure can't wait. If something illegal has gone on, if there's been activity with other people, because your spouse deserves the dignity of hearing it from you, not finding out about your activity from a police officer, a lawyer, or another individual that says, listen to what your spouse did with me. So in those kind of cases where that exposure is happening or those involvements, then we need to move towards full disclosure right away. And that's where, I mean, a counselor is a must. But you're talking about, you know, for some couples that maybe feel like we just don't need the counselor, we're choosing not to. I, I think it's really important to help them see there is a process. As Rich was saying, we've got that free tool on our website about the disclosure process and really encouraging spouses to do it thoughtfully and not emotionally. Because that's where I see the best outcomes is when it's just emotionally driven, I'm going to spill my guts. Or a wife or husband demanding, I need to know everything right now. To put it this way, it's just a lot messier than it needs to be. I mean, it's going to be hard no matter how you do it. But I think if you've written it out, you've shared that with someone else first. So you've gotten good input, someone's helped clarify it. The other thing that comes to mind is when you do the full disclosure because it's hard. You do want it to be the only time you have to go through this, and you don't want to ever have to come back with an oh, yeah, I forgot. And there were these other parts that I didn't include. And so that's one of the questions as a group leader, when he's sharing his disclosure with me before meeting with his wife, I'll say, is this everything? And hopefully at that point, there's enough trust between us that he knows I'm in it for his good. I'm not just trying to, you know, nail him down to the carpet to say, because when you're done, you want to be like, that's everything, because that's where the peace comes. But if, you know, I gave 90%, but I held onto this nugget that I'm really worried about, it's not even worth it. You don't go there. And so I would say to someone listening, if that's where you're at, like, hey, I could do 90% of this, but there's a little nugget no way I'm holding on to. That's the whole reason you need full disclosure. And if you're there in that place, you probably need a counselor to walk through it with you because that means there's something you're so fearful of another person finding out, you think it's a deal breaker. And it doesn't have to be a deal breaker, but because of your concern. That's why you want to involve a professional counselor that can help navigate this with you. And the outcome can be very positive. And we've seen that over and over.

You know, even just on a practical side, talking to other group leaders, you know, and we've talked about that a lot, that the community of a group leader is also important too, that you have other people you can talk to and ask who've been through the process as a group leader of leading people through this process of disclosure. Like, I've got friends who are all around the country who call me every, every once in a while and just say, hey, this is where we're at in group. Like, how have you handled that? And I think that there's wisdom in that, especially when it comes to the process of disclosure, because it's even. We talked about it again in that episode with Tyler and Sherry. The idea that it is so difficult but so necessary, it's such a huge piece to recovery and so just doing that and. And maybe it's listening to our podcast or other podcasts, maybe it's reading blogs, maybe it's reaching out to Rich and Ashley and trying to talk to somebody who, you know, this is their day to day job is Helping people through this. So just basically don't feel like you have to go through it all by yourself. Maybe you don't have, you know, in your favorites on your phone, you don't have CSATs around the area. It's like reach out to somebody who, you know might have that information. So don't feel like you have to do it by yourself.

So, Rich, when it comes to guiding group members, and we've hit on this a little bit, but what other thoughts or kind of advice do you have on working with the single person who's looking at, well, I don't have a spouse to disclose to. What's the point? And I've actually had guys in groups say, like, oh, do I get to skip this lesson? I'm not married. So what kind of things do you say to a single person? What value is it for them? And maybe going through some of the same process, even if the outcome isn't sitting with your spouse and sharing it.

Yeah, good question. Lots of single guys over the years, I treat them just as a married guy in this sense. Though they're not married or have a girlfriend, disclosure still is part of it. They have family that they're close with. You know, to be able to have that support from family members, you know, I think being a single guy is going through disclosure is almost a step up as far as readiness because they're going to have to do again, we talked about disclosure when you get married. So if they can go through a full disclosure with their family and experience this freedom, when they do eventually meet someone that they're going to marry, they're able to do this. Full disclosures, hey, I've already been through this, but I want to let you know, here's my story, here's my past. But to be able to do that, I think if you don't set them up for. For that and they just go through the material and, oh, I'm not married, I don't have anybody. And they just skip it. Eventually they are gonna have somebody. And like we said earlier, if you don't get it out in the open, they're not going to experience this freedom. So it's like they're gonna still have this stuff. It's like you said, why can easily slip back into it because nobody really knows.

Yeah.

So, yeah, But I've always treated the single guys and in the disclosure sense, just like any guy in group, it's still part of the process. It's gonna look different, but it still needs to be done. Yeah.

And two, like you know, and again, I. We're going to continue to reference that episode with Tyler and Sherry, but we talked through the, really the experience of the struggling person or the addict disclosure process is healing for you? Like, yes, it's going to be healing long term for your relationship, but it is, it is very healing for yourself, being able to. And I remember when I was in my first Conquer series, I don't even think it was in the material. We just decided, you know what, we're going to write out our full disclosure and one guy's going to go around and share each week. And I just remember how powerful that was. That for me was a moment where we talk about personal promises. That was one of those where I felt like I finally had three or four other guys who were in it with me, who knew it all, but were strong together and were willing to be there for me. And that was super, super healing for me. And so I think if you're a group leader and you've got a single guy or gal in your group, just really emphasize how important it is for their recovery and their process. Yeah, it's super sketchy and scary when it comes to relationship, but at the same time it's going to be healing for all those things. But also emphasize there's personal healing involved in it too.

Yeah. And I think about throughout Christian history, there are a number of writers that have talked about how as the weight of sin increases, so does the weight or the importance of grace. And the full disclosure for a single person or married person can be one of those humbling, honest experiences where you feel the weight of sin. Because in a document you've listed out this number of years, this number of times a week, these different behaviors, these people impacted, these, you know, jobs lost or years wasted, and it's hard honestly to look at it and go, wow, that's. That is the weight of my addiction and my choices. But on the other hand, that can be, this is the truth of what I'm forgiven of. This is what my heavenly father has, you know, stamped, canceled over. And this is what my group or my family knows and still loves me. And the weight of grace and glory that comes out of that is really an amazing thing. So I think for a single person, that would be the kind of thing I'd encourage is not everyone needs to know everything. So as Rich is talking about sharing with your family, I can imagine a few listeners like they're getting wide eyed thinking of the details they're going to be sharing with their mom or their sisters. They're like, what on earth? Well, you might not share the full disclosure with your whole family, but write it all out and you might realize, wow, a lot of these behaviors involve deception. When I lived with my parents, and I need to have a time to meet with them and apologize and own these things, and. And there can be a lot of health that comes out of that. So everyone doesn't need to know everything, but someone needs to know everything. So after you've written out the full disclosure as a single person, you want to meet with someone from your group, your group leader, a person you really just trust and walk through it all and then maybe ask their advice as a single person, who else do you think I should be sharing this with? And they can help you discern what's appropriate sharing for maybe your family or other people in your life that would be helpful to you so that you're not just making that decision on your own.

So we've talked about some things to do. How about talk about some things to not do? So, as a group leader, what are some mistakes that people make when approaching disclosure with their group members?

Telling your group leaders that, I'll do your disclosure for you. The number one mistake as far as you can do your disclosure, and I'll facilitate the disclosure with you and your wife. A lot of leaders say, oh, I'll take you through that, because I've done disclosure, so I know how to do it.

So assuming you're the expert, basically, because you've been through it. Got it. Okay.

Not good.

Just.

Just one. Don't do that.

Yeah, don't do that. You know, and I think the. Probably the biggest mistake which we see all the time, and. Well, not so much lately, but a lot of times in groups is groups miss certain parts of the homework where they. They're not doing stuff in the. In the introduction, where originally, that's kind of where you start processing your story and you're going through the process, and then sometimes they just go through the homework, and then they. Because guys aren't. They get to pillar seven and they realize that, well, they haven't done. The leader hasn't coach them well enough. They haven't shared their story enough. They're not writing out their story. So by the time they get to pillar seven, they have no idea. They've basically spent that much time and they have no idea about what to put in there because they haven't worked on any of it. That's a big mistake. Because disclosure, even for group leaders, even though they've done A disclosure, it's not something we're trained in well, so if we're not really trained in it, a lot of times they just kind of gloss over it a little bit.

Yeah, I think that's what came to mind for me is maybe you go through this lesson in the workbook and group leaders are like, okay, go and do it, you know, and people are sharing a full disclosure that hasn't been fully processed, or it's way too detailed or it's way too vague. And so, you know, trusting the process and having group members say, hey, let's meet together and let's walk through your disclosure, because even if we're not trained professionals, as a third party observer, we're going to be able to see pretty quickly like, hey, there's some huge gaps here, or wow, all this detail here, that's not what this is about. And we can really help someone in that way and to balance a little bit, you know, Rich says, as a group leader, don't offer to do their disclosure. But when would a group leader be involved? The parameter we would give is it is always at the discretion of the, the betrayed spouse, the one who is receiving the disclosure, because it's really up to them. They need to feel safe, they need to feel supported, and they need to feel cared for. And so if you're the struggling or addicted spouse, you might go to them and say, I'm at a point in my recovery where I'm ready to share a full disclosure with you. And hopefully at that point, you've already discussed if you're not meeting with a counselor and why that is, that if you're doing it on your own, you say to them, would you like to just do it between the two of us, or would it be helpful to you to have others there, someone on your behalf, a friend, your group leader, someone from your group? Would you like me to have my group leader? And why might you do that? Well, if the spouse really suspects that you're always deceitful and you're not really, you haven't really done the right work, they may want your group leader there just to affirm, like, hey, you know, so and so they've done this work, we talked about it in group, I've reviewed this with him. But if you're in that situation where you're being involved because they've asked you to, they've invited you into it because they want kind of that support or care, just be clear. Saying up front, hey, I'm not the expert here. I'm not Leading this. This isn't. I'm just here to support your marriage and to support the two of you in walking through this. But if things start to get kind of heated or messy, you. You really need a professional. You need someone trained in this. It's not really what I know how to do, but if I can help encourage and support and create a great environment, that's what I'm here for. And I would just say. And I don't know what you would say, Rich. More often than not, I find couples would rather if they're not with a counselor, they tend to just do it on their own. And in some ways, I think that's preferable because it is pretty personal and intimate. And if the spouse feels safe and just says, I'm ready, bring it on. That is probably the most common approach. Would you say, Rich? Yeah, I think outside of the counseling office.

Yeah, I think so. And a lot of that. A lot of successful outside of the counseling office, disclosures that go well, go well because the husband or the wife, whoever the addict is, has put in.

The work, and they've been in group and they've been doing the homework, making their phone calls. Yeah, that's a great point.

Yeah. And I've had guys that have done that. The other side is, you know, when you have a forced disclosure, and I've sat in on some of those, and those are pretty rough. So, again, even during that time, like you said, Nick, if you have a forced disclosure where it needs to be done right now, and your group member calls, you say, hey, I need you right now, you just go into that meeting and say, hey, I'm not. I'm not a licensed counselor.

Not here to advise, support, and be.

Kind of that neutral ground.

Right.

You will get some of those from time to time.

One of the things I've been thinking about regarding this is because I just finished a group, and so there are some disclosures that are about to take place. And just thinking through that process a little bit, but I think that it's similar to some of the things I've struggled with as a group leader. Like, it's my job to convince somebody this will work or that, like, basically caring about their recovery or their disclosure more than they do. Um, and so I think that my encouragement in this moment with this question would be, don't put that on yourself as a group leader, that you have to convince somebody that this is what's best for them. And I think that some of the ways that I have thought about doing that or maybe have unintentionally done that is like, minimize the pain of disclosure and try to, like, soften it so that they are more willing to do it. And then when they do it, they just get hit right in the mouth. And it's like, well, this is not what you told me it was going to be like. And I think that that really is actually on the health of the group leader. Like, deal with that, whatever is going on in your heart there, and just understand it's not your job to convince somebody, Allow the work to do that, allow this person's recovery and how the process is going to lead them in that direction. You can act as, like, the bumper lanes, if you will. That's kind of helping them move forward. But don't be the one who's pulling them into that. Don't take that responsibility.

Yeah. Along those lines, I think that's a mistake that group leaders could make is essentially forcing disclosure. You know, and maybe your heart's in the right place because you're trying to say, hey, trust the process. You need to do everything in the workbook. So, you know, you will go home and do this disclosure because that really is putting yourself in a place of legal liability where someone might say, I didn't want to do it. My group leader made me, and now I'm being filed divorce papers, and it's your fault. This is all because of you. So you really need to encourage why the process could be valuable. But if a person says, I'm not, or we're not ready or I'm not there, like, okay, we love you, we're working with you, and I hope you'll get to that point.

Their decision.

Yeah. And as long as it's their decision, then you're in the right posture to be the support, the encouragement, the guide. But if you're ever the one forcing or leading the process, you're taking a role that unless you're a licensed sex addiction therapist, you should not be in. And that's where, as a group leader, you want to remind your group, I'm just. I'm a volunteer here. I'm just trying to help. But you need to make the decisions when you're ready. And so here's why we recommend this. Here's why this is in the workbook. But you need to make the decision. And I think when someone takes that initiative, that's the other side of it. The person doing full disclosure needs to take that initiative because that's part of what makes it redemptive, is they're choosing to Own up to these things. And that's incredibly powerful.

Yeah, absolutely.

So along those lines, Rich, we're kind of going into those encouragements. What other. You know, this is a hard topic. It can be a little heavy. But what are other encouragements we'd give to group leaders about how they can help group members throughout the disclosure process?

You know, the biggest one is as a leader, we got a model, what that looks like. So when you're leading a group, that's super easy.

No big deal.

Yeah.

So when you're leading a group, for the most part, many leaders are going through the material over and over and over again with all the groups that they're leading. So when it comes to disclosure, you just don't go into that and say, oh, I've already done my disclosure. I'm not going to answer the questions and go through the process in the material in the book. It's great to walk through that and then do the homework that they're doing. And then. So you're sharing, they're seeing. And then because I've done disclosure, they're going to see how well mine's prepared. So you're really just modeling what it looks like, and then you're answering the same questions and then again, just encouraging them. That we, what we talked about is, you know, as scary as disclosure is, there's this free freedom out there after disclosure that makes the recovery process that much better. I mean, it's. It's hard to explain what true freedom looks like after a disclosure. And after you've really done the work, you can't. Can't explain it. It's just something that they're going to experience.

Yeah. For me, this question, I have three words, and three words are deferred. Defer. Defer. What I mean by that is maybe that's one word three times. But don't try being the superhero. Don't try being the counselor. Don't try being the one person who, like, it's, this is not your responsibility to get this person through this. And if you want it to be done well, and we've talked about it already, like, seek out a professional. And maybe, maybe what that means even is that you can be the one to seek out that professional for the individual, to connect that individual or group member to that counselor. But then at that point, bro, tap out. It is not your thing anymore. And so that would just be my thing. Don't try to be the superhero or the savior. These, like, men and women going through disclosure have to go through this process. And it's just a part of the journey. And if you're a group leader, you already know that, and you know that people can't do it for you. So just defer.

Yeah. Some encouragement I think about, especially for maybe a type A person or someone who's a bit of a perfectionist. They may be believing that if I do full disclosure perfectly, then it'll all go well. And if things don't go well, it's because I didn't do it perfectly. And I think just to encourage your group and even yourself, this is a tough, messy process. I think you could do everything right, and it's still going to be messy and emotional and maybe hard question and just kind of having that grace for one another to say, this is messy. And so don't put this performance mode on yourself, that if I just do disclosure perfectly, she'll be okay and everything will be fine. It might not be. It'll be messy. And so just going in prayerfully, going in humbly, and asking God to use it for good in your life and in your marriage, I think that's what we can do as group leaders, is we can be a part of that process of prayer and encouragement. The other thing that comes to mind for me is just creating an environment where we don't want someone to do a full disclosure and then be a closed book the rest of their life. Like, it's not the idea, like, one time you open up this door, share it all, and then close that door and never talk again. The goal is that this actually creates a new level of communication and intimacy and honesty in your marriage. Because that's what we know from all kinds of research, whether secular or Christian, is that trust and honesty in a marriage are what lead to deeper levels of intimacy. And so as you create this new standard of they know me, they know everything, intimacy can grow. But you're gonna have to stay there, because the full disclosure is to kind of reveal all the aspects of your addiction. But guess what? That doesn't make you a perfect person. You're gonna go out and still be on this journey towards purity. And we've talked about that. That purity isn't a place you arrive. And now you're perfect. You're still a human being that's sinful, that has urges and lust and bad days. And so hopefully you're always seeing man, I'm not the person I used to be. I'm free of addiction, but that doesn't mean I'm free of all forms of sin. And so if you're able to just use this as a springboard into honesty and communication in your relationships. That's the value of it. So I think as group leaders, when we just emphasize that, talk about that, it helps someone see full disclosure in the full scope of their marriage and not just confine it to this, you know, get through this one thing and then I can stop talking because that won't necessarily move the marriage forward like we want.

Yeah, well, guys, as like through our conversation, it's obvious disclosure is essential to recovery and it's a really difficult thing. And if you are a group leader, you will be involved to some degree in this process for your group members. But just know that you play a key role and maybe it's not the first fixer or the one who saves it that you're the person who postures. I like that word that you use, Nick. You're posturing yourself in a place where you're supportive and you're safe and you're that person that they can come to when they're going through this process. So as a group leader, we hope that this conversation, this episode is really encouraging to you and that you feel like you're better equipped. If you don't feel like all your questions are answered, please send them in. We'll always do FAQ episodes, follow up episodes. Reach out to Rich. He loves talking to everybody. Always. So Rich. Nick. Thanks so much for the conversation, guys.

Thank you.

Good to be here.

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