112 - Stories of Healing: Scott & Cassie Spicer

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You're listening to the Pure Desire podcast. Your safe place to find hope, healing and freedom from sexual addiction, betrayal and relationship issues. What's up, guys? Just wanted to let you know about our upcoming Pure desire Men's Conference, September 14th, Troutdale, Oregon at Harvest Christian Church. This is a one day event that's going to be a great time together. We're going to have food, we're going to have fellowship, and we're going to have some great sessions and teachings on sexual integrity. How to create, how to maintain it, how to live in community the best way we know how. Our featured speaker is Jay Stringer. We also have a sit down with Dr. Ted and other sessions that you guys are gonna love. Make sure to register and check out all the info on our website, PureDesire.org pdman we'll see you guys there. What's up people? This is your host, Trevor Windsor and you are listening to episode 112 of the Pure Desire podcast. I am here as always with my co host Nick Stumbo.

Where's the beef? But where's the beef?

Did you. Was that I'm going to try to gain my composure real quick. Was that sent in by a listener?

It was. That's very good. And I'm just realizing I didn't write down who and so if you are the listener, you know who you are and I really appreciate it. But in my notes I didn't because I usually like to give a shout out like hey, thanks to so and so from wherever.

Right.

But I really appreciate the input. Great line from a 1980s Wendy's commercial about the size of hamburgers at other fast food joints.

Right, right. That's an interesting marketing tool and I think it used or it worked really well. Honestly, I love Wendy's. I could go to Wendy's all the time.

And I have absolutely no tie in to the episode today on that just. I thought that was a funny intro so we used it.

Well, you're in for a treat today, listener. We sat down with Scott and Cassie Spicer. Scott is one of our regional group advisors for really the southern region. They're both located in Dallas and both him and Cassie are leading pillars groups and BNB groups.

Got an event coming up there in October.

Yeah, we're really excited about that. And we just, we sat down and allowed them to just share their story.

Yeah, you know, people will ask me from time to time why Pure Desire has been successful or why it's grown. And I really look at a couple like Scott and Cassie and in A sense they're the answer. The answer is we've grown because it's effective, because it works. And that doesn't mean it works for every single person. There's always outliers. There's people that maybe disagree with this or that, but it's couples like Scott and Cassie. And what you're going to hear today about how they really just leaned into this process and God worked, I think they're the evidence of why we grow because people use the material and say this works. And so I'm excited for people to hear why this process was effective for Scott and Cassie and just to hear their story. It's awesome for.

And it's a longer episode, but it's worth listening to every minute. They really did open the door and show us what their recovery looked like and how they're continuing to grow as a couple. So enjoy the episode. Scott, Cassie, thanks for being here with us. I know Scott personally. I have not met Cassie until now. I'm super excited to have you guys. We are fans of yours, whether you know it or not, and appreciate you guys. So this has been a vision to have you guys on the podcast for a while, so we're really thankful. Thanks for being here.

Thanks for having us. We're super excited to be here, too.

Yeah. Feel like a little mini celebrity today.

Well, we just. For all our listeners, we don't pay royalties. We don't pay our guests. This is something we do for free and volunteer. So if you just thought that you were going to get a new source of income, you were wrong. So let's jump in, guys, to the first. The first question. And again, this is a Stories of Healing episode. And so we're going to hear a lot from Scott and Cassie on their story. So can you guys just give us really, a little bit of background and some of your upbringing, a little bit of your story, just for listeners who don't know who you guys are?

Yeah. Cassie and I originally grew up in Tulsa, Oklahoma, and we actually met in high school at a summer job. And so initially, I think we had a lot of fun that summer working and really found a lot in common about ourselves. And it's kind of funny, as we look back even now, our stories and our upbringings are a lot alike. We both are the oldest kind of in our families with younger siblings and have young parents who had us at a young age. And that's pretty unique in our upbringing. And, you know, our backgrounds with our families aren't perfect. There's certainly brokenness there. And there's things that we've had to work through that have played a part in our recovery journey. And so. But that's kind of where our story starts and something that I think brought us together right when we met that summer in high school. And we continue to point back to even more now as we continue recovery together.

So you guys, you guys are involved with Pure Desire right now. What does that involvement look like?

So we're currently leading groups at our church. Scott leads the Seven Pillars group and I lead one of the Betrayal and Beyond groups. And we launched those at our church in 2017. And so we've gotten to see them multiply a couple times times now. And that's been so exciting and really just seeing the movement in the Dallas area and people that are coming forward with courage seeking help in this area. And it's been just really, really awesome for us on our own journey to come alongside all of these men and women and help them find a place to plug in in the area.

Yeah, it's been really cool for me also to serve as a regional group advisor. And so that means being kind of a contact for groups and churches in our regional area that want to start Peter Zier Ministries. And that's really special for me because like Cassie said, we've seen such a movement and momentum starting at our own church. And it's so cool to talk to people on day one of that. Just a pastor maybe with a vision or an idea and think, man, what can I do to help this guy or this girl? Just take those first next steps and then check back in and just see as God starts doing things over six months, a year, two years. That's been a really cool role to play with Pierciar as well.

Yeah, appreciate so much the way you guys are involved in not only living out your own story, but helping others find that path of healing as well. And this is a stories of Healing episode, which means there was a story here that we want to talk about. And so go back to where your story kind of started in particular as it connects to Pure Desire. When did you know that there was an issue and, and what prompted you to start seeking help?

Yeah, you know, the journey for us with Pure Desire started in early 2015, so almost five years ago. And at that time, you know, Cassie and I were working in full time ministry as support raised missionaries and for all that looked really good on the outside with young new marriage and growing ministry and growing in leadership and all these things, man, I was really in a state of despair on the inside. And what unfortunately Cassie wasn't aware of, and really no one else in our circle, was that I was struggling with a 13 year sexual addiction at that point. And so in early 2015, I was exposed in an incident of sexual addiction and to just in the providence and sovereignty of God. Our ministry was kind of starting a relationship with Peter Zire at that time. And in those early days of confusion and chaos in our home and our ministry, they connected us to, to Dr. Ted Roberts and pure desire. And so that began a recovery journey with them that still continues today. But it was really in my life exposure and the Lord intervening in that way that honestly kind of was a wake up call and started this process in my life.

So Cassi, what was that like, that experience when that exposure happened? I mean, what did that look like for you?

I think for me, even though I didn't tie this to the exposure early on in our marriage, even days after our honeymoon, I began to have this overwhelming feeling of being alone. And it was a really surprising feeling for me, I think, because I had thought that marrying, getting married, especially to Scott, who I love so much, was just gonna answer or fix probably some things in my life that he wasn't able to fix. And so I remember early on it would be like 8:39pm he'd be totally asleep, just throw me under the bus like that. And I was night owl. We were fresh out of college. So around that time I was up till 11pm midnight. And it was in those hours before bed that I really remember feeling so alone. And he and I had had several conversations in those early weeks just about that. And I think it was really a result of a more pervasive issue that we'd come to face, which is just that we lacked an emotional connection. And there's a part of my story in there of looking to Scott to, you know, fix things and be things that he couldn't, but then also just that we weren't emotionally connecting. And that was really lacking in our marriage. And so very early on, I began seeing a counselor because I was feeling like I was feeling a lot of emotions. And in our marriage that seemed. That seemed to make me the more unstable one and. Or that's how I would label myself, the more crazy one, because I was showing emotions and was trying to connect and was striving in a lot of ways. And I needed. It looked like I needed a lot of help or it was perceived that way. And so sought out counseling early on in our marriage and got to work through some really beneficial things about my relationship with God and things that I think helped me individually. But we never really did get to dive into what was going on in our marriage as far as how we weren't able to connect emotionally. And so when Scott was exposed in 2015, it was completely shocking. It was a total surprise. And I think because we were in ministry and. And like Scott said, we had pure desire, come months before, I believe, to do a training with our ministers to help others. Right, so to help others, yes, of course. Learn how to be set free from sexual addiction. We had had several conversations throughout our marriage about pornography and the pervasiveness of it, and working on the college campus with students and how could we help them? And even stories about Scott's personal interactions with that, they just didn't go very far. It was just, oh, that used to be a struggle for me. It's not anymore. And so I felt really confident in all of that. I didn't really see any reason to ask further questions. And so when he was exposed, it was completely shocking. And there wasn't a lot of evidence that I could point to, if you will, as far as finding pornography or really anything, because, like Scott said, from the outside looking in, it was so great. You know, we were going on dates, we had marriage planning meetings. We spent a lot of time together. I'd say we were very cohesive. So it was. It was really a struggle to even fathom how this could have happened with.

All that being said, with all that was going well. I do remember some of those conversations. Even three years into marriage, before exposure, before recovery started. I remember sitting in the evening after work and Cassie saying, I just feel like we're not emotionally connected. I feel like there's. There's something missing. And I. And at that time, my emotional capacity was so low that I just felt super numb to that. And I said, you know, what are you talking about? I remember you saying things like, I just. I just don't feel like we talk about things. I don't feel like I know you more than you may know your friends. And I think when I look back, more than anything, although all that was going right, that was clearly just a symptom of the deeper problem, the disconnect that we had as a result of, really, my avoidance and my addiction. So that's probably one of the biggest, I guess, precursors that. A big sign that there was something wrong in my life and in our marriage.

I think what you guys are talking about is a good reminder for everyone when it comes Particularly to this area of sexual addiction, that it's. It's possible to have a relationship in a marriage that feels or seems from the outside is healthy. There's connection, there's date nights, there's time together. We enjoy each other's company. But if we aren't able to go to those deeper places and really address the underlying issues and what's been driving behavior probably for many years before the relationship ever came about, that there's not a direct correlation. I think what you just voiced, Cassie, is so important. And I think a lot of wives and husbands, to a degree, if they're the one that's been betrayed, can. Can really struggle with. But we had a good marriage and things were going well. How could they be doing this? That there's not a direct correlation between the two. That because I would echo the same in our marriage, things from the outside look great. We were doing a lot of the right things, but because no one had showed us how to address this deeper stuff going on in my life, they just continue almost on like parallel tracks, but not communicating with one another. So if you're out there listening like, man, we had a good marriage. How could he do this? Like, well, it's really not the marriage that can fix that issue. You've got to go deeper.

Yeah, Scott. I mean, we know the nature of addiction, that it's not just something that one day you're good, the next day you just dive off the deep end. And so for you, kind of even leading up getting into marriage and that exposure, what attempts had you made before on breaking free or finding freedom in that, that didn't work for you.

Yeah. You know, as I look at the course of my addiction, you know, these behaviors started when I was 12, 13 years old. But it was really my sophomore year of college that I began to fight my addiction. I began to gain a conviction against sexual sin and try to put things in my life to really rid myself of that. And so that, that means for about six or seven years, that's the state I was in. And so I did all the normal stuff. I had accountability software on my devices. I had weekly accountability, one on one and with the stuff, small group. I memorized verses. I never did the rubber band approach, but certainly familiar with some of those resources and all those kind of things I did. And one thing that I think hopefully a lot of people relate with was every time was the last time. And so probably hundreds, if not thousands of times over that six year period. Man, there was a. I really did hate to Sin. And there really was, I feel, a sincere prayer and asking for help from the Lord. Say, God, man, this is the last time. Give me victory, give me strength. Help me captivate this thought. Help me resist this temptation. But the one thing I never did over that time was I never was truly honest with someone else about the severity of my struggle. Even in some of those accountability conversations and small groups, and even one on one, I would disclose maybe a little bit of my struggle or maybe a singular instance of weakness. But, man, I surely had never disclosed to anyone, hey, this has been a problem in my Life for over 10 years, and it's actually escalating and feeling a little bit out of control and I need help. That was one thing that I never did. To find healing.

Yeah, that need to be honest with others and also just that need to be honest with ourselves is so crucial because we do live in that minimization and rationalization. And I think what you just voiced, Scott, is what many, many people find themselves in and why they don't reach out for help sooner. Why it often does take a crisis because we're convincing ourselves, hey, last time was the last time I've dealt with this. Now I'm doing better. And maybe that was only a few days ago and it's been the thousandth time you've said that. But our brains have an incredible capacity to deceive ourselves just so we can live at peace with ourselves. And I, I think recognizing that's a huge, huge part of recovery.

Yeah, absolutely.

So, as you mentioned, Scott, you know, being exposed and at that point, there kind of becomes a necessity. You have to deal with it. But just because a person is exposed in their issues doesn't mean they're going to necessarily be willing to walk a path to recovery. It certainly doesn't mean it will make it easy. So as you began to face this issue in your life, what were some of the big hurdles early on that you had to face in order to find healing and freedom?

Yeah, I think you just alluded to one, and that's just embracing the reality of my brokenness. That's something that I struggled so much to do because for so long, my mo. My go to was, I've got this. I've got it under control. It's not as wrong or as bad or as severe as other people. And focusing on the good in my life, man, ministry is going good. I'm pursuing my wife. I'm sharing the gospel on campus. I'm doing these things. And so, I mean, those initial days of Recovery. I always go back to Ted's quote of pursuing reality at all costs. And I was really forced to do that. And that was the biggest hurdle, was turning from all that and just staring the brokenness and my failure right in the face and saying, hey, you know what, man? I don't have it under control. Everything's not okay. I am confused. I am lost. I need help. And so I think just facing the reality of my situation, even being comfortable with the idea of what sexual addiction is, just that concept and labeling myself in that way, going to a group, doing counseling with the counselor, those are all things I'd never done before. So turning and literally facing the darkness, the brokenness, there's a lot of fear in that, and there was a lot of shame and didn't know what was going to come next. And so it kind of took it out of my control. And I had to just let go of this control mechanism that I already had, that I can control how people view me. I can control my circumstances. And ultimately, I had to lay all that down and just say, hey, you know what? I'm submitting to what God's doing in my life through this exposure. And just kind of seeing what God's going to do next is kind of the position I was put in, which is really challenging for me early on.

So, Cassie, with. And we see this a lot, that when you're in a situation where the husband is the struggling spouse and the wife is the betrayed spouse, it's pretty easy to be like, you know what? It's his problem. He goes to deal with it. I don't really need anything, like, so for. And that really, in a lot of ways, is a hurdle for people. How did you get over that hurdle? Like, how did you get to the point where it's like, you realized, you know, I need some of this healing, too, in order for us to have a good relationship.

I think I have a really long answer to that question, and I'm even trying to wrap my mind around it. But I think my recovery journey started early on as a result of some pain that I had experienced from my family of origin. And so when I was about 18 years old, I actually saw a Christian counselor for the first time because the pain of divorce and a relationship with my mom and some different things that had really come to the surface, that I really felt like I could no longer manage on my own had led me into counseling and with great friends who were helping me get there and helping me grow in my relationship with God along the way. And so when I began that journey, not knowing that I was in college, I learned for the first time, just in my family of origin, how to set some boundaries that I needed to set with people that I loved. And that's really hard, right? When we've never done it before. And you struggle, like I struggle with codependency at times, and feeling like if I choose to set this a boundary, then I could hurt this person or they may not feel like I love them and all those things. And so that started for me with my family of origin. And I think also learning that in the midst of all that pain, that being the oldest sibling, I couldn't rescue my younger siblings, I couldn't rescue my parents. And so learning that, too, that wasn't my role. And in trying to do that, I was not only not benefiting them, but not benefiting myself. And so when all of this came forward with Scott, as I mentioned previously, I was actually already in counsel because I was still working through so many of these issues that I was feeling in my current marriage, but also from my family that I had brought into our marriage. And so I think when I remember when Scott sat me down that very first night that he was exposed, I had never really had an experience like this before, but I had the words it's not about you in my mind. And I truly feel like those words were from the Lord. I didn't hear them in an audible voice, but I had those words in my mind clearly in that moment. And it was such a relief in that moment in that conversation, because I was able to hear him, and I could see just sitting next to him on the couch that he was hurting and that he was coming to me and he was telling me something really important, which sounds like so simple, but I think in the context of where we were in our relationship, him sitting down and having an intentional conversation with me just wasn't something that he did, or a painful or vulnerable conversation with me, I should say. And so I was really able to hear him in that moment. And it allowed me, I think, early on in those few weeks to kind of sit back, if you will, and try to understand and try to hear and try to conceive all that was that was going on, because it was so shocking for me and it was such a surprise. But I think I knew that Scott's struggle wasn't about me in the sense that I hadn't done something in our marriage, or I had caused it, or I hadn't been available enough to him physically or all the things that we can really struggle with as women and understanding why they would need to seek something like this outside of the marriage.

The thought that you also have to pursue healing.

Yes. To continue on that path. I think when something like this, as catastrophic as it felt and was in our lives, you know, we lost our ministry, our financial stability, a lot of our community, you really do begin to, or at least I did, turn introspectively into myself with the Lord and ask, you know, how did we get here and how did I miss this? And all those questions that you asked, some of them helpful and some of them not, but I was asking myself those things. And when I got plugged into my Betrayal and Beyond group, it was about three months after Scott's exposure and getting to pour into those materials that Diane and so many other people worked so hard on. So much was brought to the surface in my own life, on my own journey, for me personally, that I see as a result of my upbringing and my family of origin, that that really had formed me into the woman I was when I got married, that I think it's really hard to navigate and say and say. But I think that allowed a lot of this to go on or allowed me to be blind to it, if that makes sense. And so, you know, I didn't grow up emotionally connected to my dad. I loved him, I respected him, but we didn't have that emotional connection. And so I think meeting Scott and dating and all of that seemed great, because I wasn't expecting anything other than what I was getting. But then when I started to feel that pain and understand that something was.

Off.

And he had nothing to say in return or give in return, I really began to feel like, okay, this is a problem. And I kind of feel like I'm getting lost in what I'm saying. But my group allowed for a lot of those things to come forward in my life that I needed to work on. And so it was just always clear to me that I was a mess, too.

And I like in what you're saying, Cassie, that you recognize, even though his addiction. This is important for every couple to recognize. The other person's addiction is not your fault or responsibility, but within it, there is an opportunity to look at my own issues. Because we all do contribute to our relationships, and we bring our past, we bring our faulty notions of what completes us. And our spouse's struggles can be the opportunity to lean into our own healing. And I love the way you're describing that, because I think there are many couples that would voice the same thing. It wasn't their issue that got them into the process, but being in the process helped them face issues that they knew were there, but just maybe didn't have much traction to deal with. And I think that's what you're sharing with us, which is so cool.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. I think knowing that it wasn't my fault and having that burden really freed me to look at myself and go on the journey for myself.

Cassie, we kind of have heard it so far in your story a little bit, where some of the dots were connected. You started to understand maybe how some things clicked up. But Scott, from your end, when you start into recovery, you don't really know the solution. You don't know everything. And so you do have to connect those dots. And there is a point where things just kind of feel like they snap into place and you finally get that picture. What was that experience like for you and what kind of helped you get there?

Yeah, so for me, things kind of clicked and fell in line when the reality and the craziness and the chaos of my life today that I was facing in that time was connected to my past. Like I said before, I'd never done counseling, I'd never done recovery, I'd never really looked back. My whole life had been avoid the pain, avoid what was going on. It wasn't a big deal. Didn't impact me. Let's go forward. Exciting ideas, exciting vision, growth, all these things. So the first time, when I was doing counseling with Dr. Ted and in a recovery group, a seven pillars of freedom group, it was the first time I truly looked back and faced some of those things from the past. And in doing so, the content in Dr. Ted's counseling really helped me learn my story for the first time. And there's a quote I love in the material that says if you can make sense of your past, you can change its impact on your life. And I have that, that quote all over the place in my life just because it's such a reminder of what was so huge in my journey. What did make it click was when I could connect the dots, when I could almost see objectively. I could zoom out and see from a 30,000 square foot view. Hey, this happened when this little kid was growing up with kind of this blank slate, this blank palette on what he believed about life, what he believed about God, what he believed about relationships and value and identity. Man, these little things happened along the way to corrupt that identity and that thinking. And that led this 12, 13 year old kid to really lean into and invest in this coping behavior that was free, that was accessible, that certainly was effective for creating this healthier reality from escaping my problems, man, it just made a lot of sense. And what it did was it kind of gave me a little bit of a chip on my shoulder, a little bit of an edge because I felt duped. I felt deceived really by the enemy. I was able to look at it and say, no, no, no, no, man, I didn't even get to have a say in this. I want to change this. Like, I want to change. This isn't what God says. This isn't like who told that 13 year old kid those lies that is now making me face all these costs as a 26, 27 year old guy at the time. And so that reduced a ton of shame that empowered me. And as you know, Dr. Ted, he fires you up. Yes. He comes with this militaristic view of, hey, let's take on the enemy. Let's reclaim what was stolen from us. And that truly got behind that. And it's something that continues to drive me today. But it was, yeah, making sense of my past that changed its impact on the rest of my life. That really was the huge moment for me that just, I think, pushed me to the next level of my recovery.

And that's so hard. Like, nobody wakes up and goes, I can't wait to dive into just the crap of my life and just the junk and mess of my past. Like, I know I don't. If you, any listener out there does that, like, good for you. You probably are the healthiest person I've ever met. But like, it is just not easy when you consider, because for me it was very similar. That click where it's like, okay, this isn't just the last few years. This is like a lifetime of experiences that are, that are really shaping it and then being distorted and twisted to believe things. And so if anything, for any listener out there, we would reinforce what Scott is saying. This is something that really, really has to take place. Whether you're healing from betrayal or from addiction, understanding that your past, we don't get to just like, you know, select all and delete it. It's gonna be there forever. And so we gotta turn around and face it. So that's, it's so good. Scott.

Yeah. So early on, you guys, what were some of the strategies, the tools or approaches that you found to be effective at creating sobriety and freedom? What got you going in the right direction?

Yeah, for me, it was just starting from the ground up. I had zero context for what this looked like. I'm trying to build healthy behaviors in my life and build trust and connection with my wife. And so on the recovery side, it just was me just committing to the plan, committing to my homework, committing to 30 minutes a day, soaking it up from every angle I could. And so today, I love that you guys offer a podcast. We've got videos, we've got events, we've got books, and to supplement workbooks and groups and counseling. All those things in my life just poured into my Renewing my mind, remembering truths, continuing to build that story, gain that clarity and understanding, and then reprogram it with truth and find healing. All those things were just strategies. And so and truly, I think I was blessed to be in a situation where, again, reality at all costs was kind of really forced in my life from God. And so, as Cassie alluded to earlier, because of my addiction, we lost our jobs in ministry at the time.

We.

We lost our team of supporters. We were kind of isolated from some friends and even family. And so I kind of had no other option but to really dive into recovery. And that's not my doing. That's really the Lord's goodness in my life. And I was just in a season where Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, it's like, man, there's not really anything else to take a day off or take a week off from group. It was just diving in with counseling, with group, with materials. So that's what the strategies looked like for me and my personal recovery. And then with connecting with Cassie again, I had such a low emotional attunement and awareness and ability to connect that I wasn't even aware of. I remember Ted telling me early on, he's like, hey, if you just feel an emotion, just tell it to Cassie. So again, we're coming in on three, four years of that point of marriage where she's been saying, I just don't feel connected. I don't feel. I don't feel like we're really connecting emotionally. And for so long, I was like, I don't know what that means. I don't know what I can do. And when Ted said, hey, just if you feel something, tell her. And I said, really? So I remember some of those early days, I'd just call her, or she'd say, how's work? And it's like, oh, I'm kind of nervous about a meeting or, how's the day going? Oh, I'm excited about this opportunity, or I'm kind of fearful of this, or I'm Angry about how this went. And I started just. It seemed so elementary looking back. But those are some early strategies that I didn't realize at the time. But I think to Cassie, from her experience, it was like a whole different 180. And it really built a foundation of trust by me just being emotionally available to her and just me being willing to look at what's really going on with me and then just share it in the most basic sense. And those led to some of the really best conversations that we'd ever had in our marriage. Just me saying, hey, I'm nervous about a meeting tomorrow. And anyway, I just thought that was kind of a couple early strategies that were pretty basic but really helpful to lay the groundwork early on in recovery.

Yeah, it was so simple. But I do. I'll never forget I was at home because like Scott said, I think that's something about our story that I like to emphasize is the cost was just so great. So we're literally sitting at home, you know, days after this happened, no job, nowhere to turn, and pure desire is there. And so I think Scott said it well, but, like, he really didn't have a lot of other options at that point, and by the grace of God, made the decision to jump all in. Right. And so recovery was our number one priority. And I think about going to group on Thursday nights. It was like 45 minutes to an hour from our home, depending on traffic. And just to be honest, we hated the commute. We probably complained about it every time, but we always made that a priority. And that's something that really, in our marriage, I don't know that we had done prior to that of, like, protecting this Thursday night. Right. We make it to this no matter what. And that was so transformational for us because it was kind of setting this tone of, you know, under God, recovery, this prioritizing, healing. Our marriage was our number one goal. And so we let a lot of other things fall, fall under that. And so group was a huge priority that allowed us, I think, to continue to grow in sobriety. And then counseling, obviously, with Ted and Diane, and then in the years to come. And I, like Scott said, he was really taking in anything and everything. And so I remember a big moment was he got to meet with James Craft. I think it was just a phone call, actually. But, yeah, just walking alongside other people who are a few steps before and hearing their stories was huge for us. I remember Ted saying, which really helped me to understand more the nature of addiction and to wrap my head around it, was that he would look at Scott. Like, he said, you know, he's so intense, but he would look at Scott and say, you know, you've been a human doing and not a human being. And that really helped me to understand what had been going on, especially in the lack of that emotional connection. And so that day when I was at home and Scott texted me and said, I think you said, I'm sad today, or something like that. I mean, it was just, you know, you're looking at your phone and you're like, scott, I'm sad today. Like, did he. Is this the right person? And it is. It was interesting because immediately I wanted to fix it. And so I'm like, oh, no. Like, what's going on? He's like, I just, you know, I'm sad today. I'm here at this job that I'm not super passionate about. I've lost everything, and I'm just sad. And I was like, well, but think about this. Like, we're on the journey and we're with Ted and Diane, like, they're the best, and, like, things are going good. And he's like, no, no, I'm just sad, though. And it was like. It was like this gut check for me of like, oh, I'm trying to fix this for him, and I just need to sit here and hear him and let him be sad. And that was something. It, like, makes me laugh now, but it was something in our marriage that we had never experienced. Him saying, I'm sad. Me receiving that and sitting in it with him because he had never been able to open up in that vulnerable way and express an emotion that might be negative and might not be this, like, flat line.

Yeah.

Yeah. Well, I love what you guys are saying about the importance of prioritizing recovery, because I do see a lot of people that they want to just work it in. Like, I'll just add this onto my life. And among all their hobbies and commitments, and they get frustrated. They feel like it's not, you know, quote, unquote, working. And yet, you see, when people are in a situation like you, even by necessity, if it has to be a priority, or if someone chooses to say, this is going to be my top shelf priority right now, there's something about that all in commitment that is effective. And so you guys voiced it. And I hope for people listening, if they're trying to just work this in and make it one of the many things they're doing, don't be surprised if there are a lot of challenges in effectiveness. But when we really dive in. There's so much good that comes of it.

Yeah. So you guys have talked about a couple really elements to your healing. Cassie, you were talking about family dynamic, relationship with your dad, emotional intimacy or lack thereof. Right. And then Scott, you've talked about facing your past and understanding that. In addition to those, what other elements have you guys found to finding freedom from both sexual brokenness and then also betrayal?

Yeah. For me, a key element over these last five years has been continuing to tell my story. And it's really cool because God continues to give opportunity and to open doors and to just affirm every time I give a little bit, just affirm back, hey, yeah, keep doing that. We're going to use this and how that's received from people. And so that's been awesome. But I think why that's so key for me is because again, I was in hiding for so long. I was experiencing that shame for so long. And so each time I tell my story, not only does it reinforce what I'm claiming about what God's doing in my life, but what is true about me, that I'm not defined. I'm not just the sum of all my worst mistakes. I'm not defined by a struggle and a brokenness and an addiction. But I'm claiming Christ's victory on that by telling my story that reminds me of that. But also when I'm interacting with people in that authentic way, I mean those are healing interactions for me. Every time I able to share the reality of my condition with another person and then them receive back. Hey, thank you. And let me tell you about me. I mean, that's healing for me because for so long I thought I'm the only one. I thought if they knew this, they would surely reject me. I have to hide. I have to project what I think is going to make them think well of me. And so, man, it's just a reminder. And there's no better way to do it than just to tell my story at church. Group opportunities like this. And so that's been a huge element for me. And then another one has just been keep doing recovery, keep doing recovery. And Ted ingrained that in us for so long. And you know this. Yeah, counseling with Pier zire was an 11 month gig. Yes, Seven Pillars Groups is a 9 to 10 month gig. But that's just setting the foundation. I think luckily for us, by God's grace, we kind of caught a vision to keep going. Again, because of the severity, some of the natural consequences, it wasn't really an option to Stop. There wasn't like, okay, we did that. That was cool. Now what next? But over the last five years, keep doing recovery, keep doing group. A specific thing that I've done each time that I've really enjoyed is I've done a new workbook each time. I still have the old workbooks and the old journals, and they're there for me to go back and reflect and kind of look. But by doing a new workbook each time, I'm able to sit and truly just examine. Okay, where am I right now at this level of introspection, this level of insight and process? From here further down, it's kind of like chipping away down into the foundation. And so it's just been really cool to see that each of these lessons and just the process, it's very circular. And, yeah, what I'm looking at is identifying my crippledness. Well, what I put year one is completely different than what I put a month ago.

Totally.

Yep. Deeper and deeper. So that's been really key. The temptation is to do the same book and do a different color ink or even just. I can certainly lead the group and say my answers from last time, and it'll fit and it'll probably be good. But for me personally, not letting my own recovery journey stop and digging in my own life because I'm leading a group now, or I've done it in the past, but continue to dig and peel back those layers, that's been probably a huge element for me that's helped me keep going deeper and deeper over these last five years.

That's good. How about for you, Cassie, any key elements you see as you look back at this journey?

Yeah, I was just tracking right along with Scott. We say it a lot in our marriage, but just that we would continue to peel back the layers. And I think that's been one of the most proud, fruitful, and exciting things for me in our marriage is that I get to continue to see him grow. And so we don't have conversations that often about sexual behavior, but we've gotten to grow a lot in a lot of other areas that we're working on, like our financial brokenness or our physical intimacy or our relationships with God and how that plays into our marriage. And it's been so. Oh, gosh, just so sweet to see, like, these other areas, right, that were really devastated and impacted by sexual addiction and just by. By our mess, but as a result of just continuing to push forward and striving and depending on the Lord for that, he's revealing new areas that we can continue to grow in. And now our parents. And so that's a whole other area that we're learning how to steward well with the Lord. And it's just been so, so exciting to see that in this journey you can continue to grow and the Lord will continue to lead you into new places with it.

Yeah. So, Scott, you talk about telling your story a lot and how that can be healing, and I completely agree. But there's kind of that initial hurdle of when no one's really heard the story. Where did you guys kind of have the courage or the willingness to be open and share your story? Because for a lot of people, I think they want to get healthy, but then they want to move on and not talk about this. So where did you guys get that sense of we need to tell our story, we need to share with others?

That's all you. There were times that you were sharing your story, and I was like, oh, no.

You know, for me, I just go back to remembering before I was exposed what that existence was like, thinking, man, I'm the only one. I'm in this ministry context for me personally, and there's all this expectation, and I'm looking around me and no one seems to be struggling. No one seems to be certainly failing to the extent that I am. Man, that felt so alone. That felt so. I look back, I was so defeated by the enemy, no hope of really escape because so scared of the reality of my situation that no one knew about it. So all to say, when I remember that and I see other people out there who very good and. Well, that's maybe their reality right now, man, I just have a motivation to not be a weapon of shame and isolation by the enemy, but instead to be a weapon of God against that. Against the greatest tool that the enemy is using, which is making them think they're alone. And if I can share my story and it's just like a torpedo right in the middle of the Satan's big defense, blows it up and says, hey, man, you're not the only one. Let me tell you what I've done and what God's done in the midst of that in my life and in my marriage, man, what does the enemy have to do left? Yeah, that's what motivates me because I remember what that's like to be there, and I just want to. I just want to. I'm right in the middle of that. And just disrupt it all.

Yeah. So, Cassie, you talked about being a little bit uncomfortable, right, with some of that stuff. I Imagine, because you guys are on the podcast now telling your story, that that has changed. Why did that change for you?

I think it's still in process. It's funny to hear you say that that's changed. I texted my Betrayal and Beyond group before. This one was like, I need prayers. And Scott and I had several conversations about it. So definitely still in process for me, I think it's not. So it's more of my own mess. Right. So it's not so much that I'm nervous about, like, what this could look like and shame and the sexual addiction piece, because I've really wrapped my head around that and I think God is so good and can do so much with that. But it's all this other junk in my life of, you know, what if I look foolish? Or what if I say something that sounds like I may not have it all together? All those silly things that I'm still pressing in and working on in my personal life. And so even just in stepping up and being a group leader, that was a huge challenge for me. You know, Scott and I are right at. I'm 29, he's 30, and so most of the women are usually older than me in the groups that I lead just with where we're at in Dallas. And it's so intimidating and I can have a lot of self doubt. And so I think in doing that and stepping up and being a leader, I've gotten to kind of peel back a new layer of facing these new layers of doubt. And love the illustration that Nick gives when I've gotten to hear him speak. But it applies to so much of what we're talking about. But right. This iceberg of what you can see on the surface and those root beliefs that are just driving it, all the lies. And so in the same way, like, I'm seeing that play out in my groups and in my life of, like, how do I show up and be fully known in this moment? And that was my prayer for today as we were going in this podcast, like, how do we show up and be fully known and it's okay and it's safe and trusting the Lord with that, that he'll use it to minister to others. Like we work through in the books of taking off those masks. And that can be so hard at times. So still definitely a process. But being in my group and continuing to press forward on the recovery journey, I'm peeling back some of those layers, so.

Nice. Yeah, well, and we appreciate that you guys are sharing and that we appreciate that your BNB Group are praying for you right now. This is really. This is powerful. And this is stuff that again. And I'll use the imagery, Scott, that you're talking about, that torpedo, like, for both men and women who listen to this, they're gonna hear someone else, like, out there is like, me has experienced same stuff as me and has been able to process it. And there's. There's hope at the end. So let's give a little bit even more hope to our listeners. Maybe someone who's in that spot. How after recovery, finding healing, still working now together in intimacy and in recovery, how have your relationships changed? Your marriage, your friendships, your parenting? Like, how has that changed?

You know, I think for us, as we keep going year after year and layer after layer into recovery, just what's been really cool and to extend further hope is, you know, we each time we move a year forward and we look at the lessons we've learned and the deeper level of insight, we look forward and say, oh, man, God seems to reveal another depth of things that we can work on with him and that he can heal and redeem in our lives. And so that has started to extend into some of those areas, into some how we approach friendships and community, how we handle finances, how we resolve conflict in our marriage. And so I would say that, yeah, going into this process five years ago, honestly, the goal for me was to be free, have extended sobriety sexually. And, man, it's blown me away just to see more and more the process that God was doing in my life. This has been a holistic redemption that, like she said, those core beliefs at the bottom of the iceberg don't just shoot up to a sexual addictive, you know, behavior, man, those branch out and does really everything in my life, everything in our marriage. And so the answer is, everything's changed. Everything has changed. And what's been so key is that we've done this recovery journey together. And so we are speaking the same language. We're knowing each other's story. We're able to process and approach a difficult situation or family of origin or parenting, both valuing the same things and using the same language, Even being able to talk to each other about the faster scale, which doesn't always go great. So don't tell your wife, hey, where you think you're at on the scale, Are you ticked off? You know, that doesn't go well, but it is helpful for sure. It just helped us more quickly get to the root of what's really going on. And so I see us spending less and less time focusing on the symptomatic surface level stuff, which obviously we do. We're not perfect. We have arguments all the time. We had one last night. But I think quicker and quicker, we're being able to go deeper and say, hey, what's going on here? Hey, what's driving this? Yeah. And so what that's doing, that's resulting in a deeper connection between the two of us and really a healthier, more thriving life in different areas. And so it's been. It's really changed everything as far as marriage and relationships and different parts of life.

Yeah. And just to second that, I think about. I never know who said what in pure desire, but someone said along the way we were hurt in relationships, and so we're healed in relationships. And I just see that so clearly throughout our journey of, you know, Scott. So many hurtful moments with Scott, but then so many healing moments with Scott, which I didn't even know was possible. Like, really having a conversation, feeling like, wow, that was healing. And I think that plays out really clearly in group as well with the women that I'm walking alongside of being able to show up there and be hurting and be broken and be healed in that context. And it's so powerful. And I guess that would be my encouragement is one. To make priority your. To make recovery your number one priority, but to do it in community. And that's been. I think, one of the most beneficial things for me on this journey is being willing to show up in the mess and be as real as I'm able to be and let God use that. And he has, and that's what's been so exciting.

Yeah. It's so neat to hear you guys just share the impact it's had on your lives, the way you're sharing it with others. And, you know, we have a lot of people that are tuning into this podcast that are at different stages in their journey and people that may be going to their first group and they heard about this podcast and they're listening. And so as we wrap up today, what's some final encouragement you'd like to leave with someone on their journey just based on what God has done in your lives, through your journey?

I think what I want to say to them is that they're not alone. I remember walking into that first group in that strange room with these strange people. But you're not alone. Right. And there's hope. There's so much hope. So whether or not things pan out the way that you think they would. Right. Whether the marriage is able to withstand this struggle, whether or not you have kids or don't, Just all the dynamics that play into this crazy story, whether they go the way you think they would. I think just knowing that God is in it with you, he's working on your behalf, whether you can see him or not, and just to keep pressing forward and knowing that you're not alone and that he's working, I think that's the hard part, is sometimes when we start taking those first steps in recovery, they're so painful, and it's almost like instinctually, you just want to jump right back out. But the Lord is doing mighty things in those little steps, even when we can't see him, and trusting that.

Yeah, that's exactly what I was going to say is, you know, just recognizing what God's doing right now in your life. I mean, literally, if you're listening to the podcast, why are you listening to the podcast? Clearly, God sent something to start a plan of redemption in your life. And what I mean is there's so many out there, so many millions and millions who are struggling in the depths of sexual brokenness. And they're doing so alone, they're doing so without resources. They're doing so without being on the brink of recovery, redemption. But most likely, if you're introduced to a group, if you're introduced to someone else telling their story, if your church has a resource, or if you're listening to this podcast, God's there and he's starting a plan of redemption in your life. And so early on in my recovery, I mean, day two, day three of recovery, I had a conversation again with James Craft. And James told me, I remember those days, he said, hey, everything around you is kind of cracking and falling apart. And the motivation or the instinct might be to try to squeeze so tight and piece everything back together. Just hold on to what you had and what's kind of falling through your fingers and just keep hold of what you had in life. And what he's saying is, hey, let go of all that. Let that old self and that old past die. Because you need to look forward and realize what God's doing in your life. Because what he's doing in your life and where you're headed is far greater and so incomparable to anything that you could ask or imagine and certainly anything that you're trying to hold on to in the past. And so that was really hard for me to do because, again, the instinct is that, oh, no, I'm holding onto this in the past. But. And certainly People are probably relating with that. But if you can look forward and even ask yourself, where is God right now? What is God doing through his sovereignty and his goodness in my life today? Why am I hearing this story? Why am I invited to this group and just look forward at what could God maybe be doing? Where could you be a year down the road, five years down the road, 20 years down the road? It's most likely so incomparable, so invaluable and worth the journey. And so that'd be my encouragement and just excited to be able to share that with people.

So. And I'm just gonna echo everything you guys are saying to anybody who's listening and you're in the midst of wanting recovery, whether it's on the front end, whether you're in the middle, whether you feel like you've gotten some freedom, there's hope. Don't stop. Understand that the work that we do and the work that we're gonna do for our health, it's never gonna be negative.

And I was just going to jump in, say one of the things I've loved about your guys stories, how many times you've talked about, we're in process, we're still learning, we're figuring it out. We're on this journey. And I think it's just a reminder to all of us that healing is not a place we arrive at. Healing is a journey that we're on. And so for anyone listening, that's like, well, when will I get there? Or when will we be done? Or when will we be healed? Maybe shifting your mindset to see that this is a journey, God invites us all to continue, continue on. Because healthy people are growing people. Healthy people aren't static people that arrived at some magical place of health. They continue to learn and grow. And Scott and Cassie, you guys just over and over have been willing to say, we're still learning, we're still growing, God's still taking us deeper. And I think that's what's exciting about this journey, is there are always new depths God wants to show us and greater heights he can take us to. So thanks for modeling that for others and just being a reminder that today. Yeah.

And I mean, again, for you, listener, like, it's not easy, it's not fun. It's gonna be extremely difficult and there's gonna be a lot of hurt. But if you push through, you're gonna find healing. You're not gonna regret the work that you do. And so we just want to make sure that, you know, we're available for that, Visit our website, PureDesire.org and reach out. We're here to help. We can't help if you don't reach out. And so we hope that this conversation with the Spicers today was encouraging and gives you hope to reach out. Whether you join a group, begin the counseling process, don't wait any longer, jump in. Freedom's possible. Healing is possible. Spicers, you guys, this has been awesome. You guys are amazing. Cassie, you shared a lot. So whether you feel like you have grown in that or not, like you guys, the vulnerability, the authenticity, the willingness to really open up the doors and show people into really recovery, what that process has looked like for you and continues to look like. And so we just appreciate you guys. We appreciate the work that you're doing and leading groups and helping other people get free, but really, we appreciate the work of recovery that you're continuing to do in your own life and how impactful that has been. And also just thanks for hanging out with us today and sharing this.

Thanks for having us. It's been a ton of fun. We're really thankful.

Yeah, I love spending time with y' all every time.

That's awesome.

See you guys. Thank you for listening to the Pure Desire podcast. If you like what you're hearing and want to keep up with the podcast, please subscribe, download and share. You can also rate and review our podcast. The more reviews we get, the easier it is for others to find the podcast. If you'd like to support the message of hope and healing and developing sexual integrity, go to PureDesire.org give and for more information about the ministry, check out our website, Pure, and you can also follow us on social media at PureDesire PDMI. Once again, that's @ PureDesire PDMI. We'll see you next time.