117 - Separation & Divorce

Foreign.

You're listening to the Pure Desire podcast. Your safe place to find hope, healing, and freedom from sexual addiction, betrayal, and relationship issues. The opposite of addiction is not sobriety, it's connection. Battling sexual brokenness and the effects it brings is not something that can be done alone. Pure Desire groups exist to be your safe place to find freedom, recovery, and healing from sexual brokenness, betrayal, and relationship issues. Whether you or someone you love is struggling or you've experienced betrayal, there is a group for you. Pure Desire is here to give you the road map to healing. To find a group online or in your area, visit PureDesire.org groups what's up? What's up, people? This is your host, Trevor Windsor, and you are listening to episode 117 of the Pure Desire podcast. Here with me is my co host, as always, the one and only Nick Stumbo.

What are we going to do tonight, brain? Same thing as every night, Pinky. Try to take over the world.

So for any of you who grew.

Up, was that Cartoon Network, I think Nickelodeon.

Okay. Somewhere in there, don't quote us on that, but that is Pinky and the Brain.

Pinky and the Brain.

Honestly, probably one of the weirdest children's shows ever.

I came across, you know, as a teenager, and it was like one of those teenage cartoons. The humor, you would have lost it if you were a little kid. But, yeah, as teens, that was very good. They found. I particularly like the episode they tried to take over the world by giving out free T shirts. Yeah. And now I've noticed how many people give out free T shirts. Like, man, that's the path. Take over the world right there.

So good. Well, look, we'd love to talk more cartoons. We're not going to, but we did have. We had our operations director, Mike Maxwell on to talk about separation and divorce.

Yeah. So maybe a light intro to help people prepare for it. A tough topic and one that, I mean, obviously in people's lives, it's life changing. It's one of those moments they look back on and say, boy, everything at that moment was different. And so we hope this episode is an encouragement to someone that's maybe recently divorced or in the middle of something. And we also just want listeners to realize we're not counselors. We're not giving legal advice here. We're not giving even professional advice. And so if. If you're listening to this episode, trying to decide, oh, should I or shouldn't I just realize we're here to be your friends and to provide some experience or wisdom from what We've seen, but we wouldn't want you to take any action or make a decision without really processing this with a counselor or someone in that place. So this is more just to help someone process where are they at emotionally, how to move forward. And I really hope it's both an encouragement to someone in that place and for the rest of us to know how to help, to know how to support someone, because we're gonna have friends or people we know.

Right.

Going through stuff like this.

So just for you listener, to know a little bit more about Mike, episode 70. We had him on a Stories of Healing episode. Separation and divorce has been a part of his story. And so he speaks from his experience. So this is a little bit longer episode. But again, great stuff. Got to hear some good stuff from Mike. So enjoy the episode. Mike, thanks for being here.

Thank you. I'm glad to be here.

So obviously not talking about a fun topic by any means. Something, though, that is very much a reality today, especially in the church, and especially when it comes to this, really, this area of recovery with sexual addiction. So really, I just wanted to ask you guys, and you guys experience how often in groups, in the realm of pure desire and what we do, how often do we see separation and divorce?

You know, I would say it's not uncommon, but my take on it is that most of the people that are in group are often motivated to avoid divorce or separation. And it seems to me that if the guy or the gal are doing the homework and committed to the process, that divorce is not the majority outcome. Although it does happen. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I would totally agree with that. That when a man or a woman is really actively working towards their healing, working to be authentic, to be a truth teller, to be a person of their word, to make change, There's. There's something in us, I think, that wants to stick with a person that's legitimately working to change their life. And so it. It does happen. But I'd say for most people in groups, they are not. They don't get into group and then end up in a divorce. It's a lot more common to see someone come because they are being divorced or they got caught in the middle of something, and now it's shortly after the divorce or separation or the stories we hear of people who maybe tiptoed into group didn't stick. And then you hear down the road, it's not uncommon to hear their marriage blew up. And I think there's a lesson for all of us in this, that it's an Area where we tend to wait too long. We. We tend to wait till it's too extreme and the crisis is on us, and then we're like, oh, my goodness, I need help. So if this podcast can help with anything, it's. Rather than waiting until the threat of divorce is there to get moving. If there's any unhealth, deal with it and do it in some confidence that if all, the sooner I deal with this, the less likely divorce and separation are in my future. And that might really help someone who's maybe their reason not to lean in is like, well, if my spouse finds out what I'm dealing with, they'll divorce me. When the truth is, in our experience, if you don't deal with it, it's actually more likely that that will occur than if you lean in and begin to pursue healing.

I've seen it a couple times in group. You know, I've seen a couple of the guys go through this experience. And so it is something that even. This is what I've seen. I've seen that if a struggling spouse gets into group and is the only one who's in group, so the betrayed spouse is not in group. It's a, like, it's a likely thing. It's a more likely thing to see a separation or a divorce. But if both SP are in a group and in healing and recovery, that tends to really help it because there's a shared language, there's a shared experience, there's more understanding on either end. But it definitely is still. I mean, I've. I just recently had a group experience where guy got into group, started to get healthy, is really healthy now, and the wife is like, you know what? Just not my thing. I don't want to do it anymore.

I'm out.

So it is definitely a possibility.

Yeah. Well, go ahead, Mike.

I was just going to say, you know, I haven't. Haven't seen a lot of the guys in group end in divorce. The ones that do tend to end of divorce are the ones who were not really embracing the process. They were there because their wife said, you gotta get in group or I'm leaving you. So they're like, reluctantly there. Yeah. They're not doing the work. And then, you know, as soon as the wife says, I'm done, they quit group. Yeah.

Yeah. Which. Which kind of shows they maybe weren't interested in changing. They were just trying to pacify or fix the situation. And that's what I'd go back to say. If your genuine intent is to change, your spouse sees that, and I think they can also see if you're not looking to change. That's what often leads them to a place of, why am I sticking it out when they don't even look to change. The other thing we talked about on the podcast that comes to mind is that principle of the hole, that if you're in a hole, the first thing is stop digging. And for couples that do continue onto a path of divorce, I think what we see is a pattern of, well, he hurt me, and so then I feel the need to go out and hurt him, and now he's hurt, and so he goes and hurts her more. And their hole just keeps getting deeper and deeper. So that'd be my other encouragement for people listening as you're looking at your marriage and asking, can it make it? You might be looking at your spouse saying, well, I'm going to watch and see what they're doing on your side of the fence, you've got to look into your life and say, am I choosing to try to be a person of forgiveness, grace? And that's not easy. I mean, that's not a simple, easy thing. But if you can embrace, I can either make this situation better or worse by my actions as well. You'll at least give your marriage the best shot. And don't get into that, you know, well, she did this, so I'm going to do that. Because the deeper that spiral gets, the harder it is to redeem.

Yeah, right.

Well, it certainly is an area that it happens. We help people in this situation. And one of the things that can be common in any kind of separation or divorce is some stigma that goes with it, that particularly if maybe a person's the only one in the group that's facing a divorce or they're in the middle of separation, and there can be that shame of my marriage isn't making it, or I'm failing. So how can we help? Whether we're the ones facing that shame or we're trying to help someone else, really dealing with shame from a divorce or separation, just how do we deal with the shame that goes along with this area?

You know, it's really interesting because nothing brings shame to the forefront like a divorce that gets public. And I've noticed that we tend to try and deal with it in one of two ways. We either run towards God or we run away. And oftentimes one spouse will run towards and the other will run away. So those unhealthy behaviors, medicating those kinds of things, there's a way we handle it. Those are the unhealthy ways we try to find our identity in a trophy wife or a car, all those things. One of the things that happens with women is when the marriage fails, they give their total identity to their children. And that is hard because then when they go to enter another relationship, their identity isn't with their husband necessarily, first and foremost, it's with their children. So it creates all kinds of problems. But I think what I always try to do is when a couple, oftentimes, if I hear they're going through divorce, I will try and get to the guy before he turns away from the church and just go, look, here's my story. Here's my experience. You don't want to do this. It's not going to make it any better if you go to the bar to try and find some girl. Let me get you in men's community and try and see if we can help heal you up.

That's such a huge piece, too, because I think that you assume. Because, I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but the statistics show that divorce is just as high, the rate is just as high as in the world. So divorce is happening all across the board, but the church, there's. There is the stigma, as you mentioned, that the church is not going to accept me. So if I am going to get a divorce or I am separated, I need to go find community somewhere else. And so I think what you're talking about is so key that there are people who. And it really only starts with you being honest with people. People don't know you're getting a divorce. Like, I've had experiences with friends and guys who got a divorce, and everyone's like, what happened? When did that, you know, happen? It's like, it's been going on for a couple years, but we didn't tell anybody. And so I think that if you are in that situation, including at least one person, if not a couple other people, to know what's going on really helps those people to really pursue them and say, look, I still love you. Even though this is something that's happened in your life, I'm still with you. And I think my encouragement to someone who has experienced or is experiencing separation or divorce is to understand that your healing isn't contingent on your marital status. Like, it's not important that God doesn't say you'll be healthy if you're married. God just wants you to be healthy. And so I think that that's something that's really easy to like now I'm this discounted or JV level Christian or my healing can't be as beneficial or as helpful.

Right.

When in a lot of ways, it could actually be that one thing that motivates you most to get healthy. And so just know that your health is your health. It's not contingent on your marital status.

Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's a place where we really want to remember the difference between guilt and shame. Because shame is that idea that says there's something wrong with me. And shame becomes an identity factor. And I know for people who are separated and divorced that they can allow that to become their identity, that the reason I'm in this place is there's something wrong with me and that that's really not something God ever wants for us is to live in that shame. Now, guilt, on the other hand, can have a healthy response because guilt says I did something wrong. And in a separation or divorce, there's always things on our side of the fence we can look at to own. Where did I lose my temper? Where did I make mistakes? How can I own those to the best of my ability to repent of them and work on changing them? Because at the end of the day, the other thing we've seen. I know I've seen a lot of is good and sincere people end up divorced because the other party didn't want to do their part. And so it's convenient to blame them. And we don't want to do that either. But there is simply that reality of I can only control me. And if I'm living in shame, I'm not going to do very well controlling me and bringing that to God. But if I just allow guilt to make me repentant and humble, then I can keep working on my stuff, which will give my marriage the best shot at making it. But at the end of the day will also give me some peace about if they choose not to stay or if they choose not to work on it before God and others. I can feel like, to the best of my ability, I did what I could to be the right kind of person and to reconcile and then to let go of what's not ours to own.

Yeah, man. You know, it's so interesting as you get guys talk about this because when you go through this, you feel really isolated. And if you're a guy, that's typically your MO of dealing with things to isolate even further. And statistics show that suicide amongst divorced single men is like eight times higher than divorced single women. And if we can't get them into community to start processing that shame and healing, then the chances are they're going to go someplace else to get that healing or to at least medicate it.

Yeah.

So I think this is a question that a lot of people have maybe pondered whether you are married or not or divorced or separated or not. But does because you read Scripture and divorce is not something that the Lord wants. Right. If a marriage is the really the image or the picture of God's relationship with the church, does getting a separation or getting divorced, does that have an effect on our relationship with God?

I would say for sure, at least in my experience. Because, you know, anytime that kind of breach, which is both physical and spiritual, takes place, the enemy is going to come right in there to capitalize on that. And so there is all kinds of issues that are affected. You know, I'm no longer qualified to be in the ministry or serve God or, you know, it's just one more way I feel good. If there's an addiction in the background, you're already struggling with that. And then this happens. Your spouse leaves you. It's just one more thing that just goes, I suck. You know, and I totally. How can God love me if this person who stood at an altar and said forever. Yep, you know, and it's falling apart and then the whole concept of how the church is going to receive this, it just piles it on it is a gut wrenching. It's probably having gone through it. It is the most painful thing I've gone through in my life.

I think it's clear it's personal to us. But if you were to flip the question around and ask, does it change God's relationship with me? We want to be clear to say absolutely not. That God doesn't feel differently about you, that as you shared, you know, God doesn't put you on the JV plan B. Well, now you're lesser Christian. And I think that's the danger is our own sense of failure or shame can actually influence the way we view God and think. Well, he's looking at me differently. Where that's the truth of scripture we get over and over is that God doesn't change and his love is constant and he's not discouraged or disappointed in us because of our sin. Does. Does he want to call us to repentance? Does he want to call us to holiness of life and following him? Well, yeah, absolutely. But even in that, it never changes his relationship with us. And I think if we're in the middle of something like separation and divorce, that's the piece we have to focus on. Because the more I recognize God hasn't changed, in his opinion, towards me, the more likely I am to continue to go to him, to reach out to him and to face that the shame and the stuff I'm feeling isn't from him.

Yep.

And that really can help us stay in a good relationship there.

You know, I would say that was my experience, was. It was when that second divorce happened for me that everything I relied on was stripped away and I went, okay, God's the only thing I have left. I need to, in my case, pull him out of the back drawer and bring him to the forefront and go, okay, God, my way of managing my life has just messed everything up. How should I be living this?

I think something, too, that's important to understand, and you mention it, that there may be a season where you do step out of ministry or lose the role that you have in the church. But to understand that that long term does not mean you can never go back. I think, depending on the situation. I know some situations where there are some pastors that I know that are viewed like they shouldn't be a pastor because their wife just up and left them. So it depends on the context, I think, a little bit, and where that person's at as far as their health is concerned. And then something that really has been impactful in my life, I keep. I keep going back to it over and over and over again. Is 2nd Corinthians 1, where Paul makes it really clear that it's actually our struggle and our suffering that allows us to minister better to other people. And like, I'm not saying, hey, you should go get a divorce so you can help divorced people. That's not what I'm saying. But what I am saying is that if that's your reality, then you have a ministry and a voice in people's lives that me, as a married person who's never been divorced, probably doesn't have.

Yeah, yeah. It's one thing for you to say, hey, you'll be okay. You can make like, yeah, easy for you to say. You got a great wife. And great. The way they assume that your marriage must be perfect and mind ended. So, yeah, the ministry that we have in our brokenness is so significant. So a really important question, and particularly maybe what's motivating someone to listen today as they're in the middle of a separation or a divorce? This can be a really difficult time for them. Can be very triggering to just give up and give in. Well, who cares? I was only Doing it for them anyway. And now they're leaving me. And so I'll just give in to my addiction. What kind of thoughts do you guys have about how we can maintain sobriety and keep moving towards health, even in the midst of a difficult time like this?

You know, it's so interesting because when you go through divorce, especially if there's addiction involved, the spiritual battle, it's probably raging around us all the time, but it's comes up to a whole new level. The devil's going to do everything he can. I remember, I think I may have told Nick about some of this. I had some of the most bizarre things happen that would try and derail me. You know, you're going to have. I had some of the most vivid sexual dreams I'd ever had. I had bizarre incidences where I saw triggering things at the supermarket. I, you know, old girlfriends call out of nowhere, you get Facebook inquiry. I mean, the devil does everything he can. And so you just really have to be on guard and you have to have somebody around you. Fortunately, in my position, I was in so much pain that for a period of time, none of those things held much attraction. Just because you're just hurting so bad, you're like, I got to get out from under this. But I hear that quite often when guys are going through it, that old girlfriends call. Things from the past pop up just temptations that they've never. They haven't even been present for a long time, you know, to just pull them away from the church.

Well, I mean, and what you said to that being around other people. I think that the two things that come to mind for me are being. Being in group, being in some sort of community, and then in that also being very honest with those people. Again, people don't know unless you share like. And something that, you know, in the last year or so. And I think it came from our friend Rodney Wright, who's on staff with us as well. The idea that unless you share, I can't bear the burden you have. And so that idea of you have to invite people in in order for them to help you bear that burden. Because it's a burden.

It's.

You talk about it being the most difficult seasons of your life, like you're trying to carry it by yourself. You need to have people there. So I think that those are just two practical ways is being very honest and being in a community.

Yeah, I think about what our friend of the program, Ben Bennett, has said that it's. It's a illegitimate way of meeting A legitimate need. So if you're in the middle of separation and divorce, you have very legitimate needs for connection, for belonging, a sense of worth and purpose. And it's helpful to recognize if I seek that out through medicating my pain in an addiction or going back to sex or running to pornography, I'm really finding an illegitimate way that won't actually meet my legitimate needs at all. And that's the other side I think of. And I've not been divorced, so take this with a grain of salt, but to. To just remember that mantra that I've had to remember in difficult times, to say pornography never makes it better.

Yeah.

That anytime, for any reason, I've given in and run back to that old pattern of pornography, it always makes it worse. And so if you're in separation or in a divorce or newly divorced, there's that temptation to fill my life with those things. But it will never make it better. It will only increase our sense of isolation. It will only increase our sense of worthlessness. It will only increase the pain of being alone. And so we might be looking for that quick hit, but if we can remember, it will only make it worse. That might give us the courage to do the things you're saying, Trevor, to lean into group, to share my burdens, because I can recognize I have real needs here. But that's not the way to meet those needs.

When I was going through that time and all those temptations were hitting, I was in group, and so I was also in counseling at the time, and I was able to process those in isolation. I don't think I probably could have resisted. Even though you're. You're feeling enough pain that you're going, that doesn't hold anything for me. There are moments of time when you're just weak. And having those guys in group that I could call and debrief with my counselor every week about what was happening, it was funny. I'd tell him stories, and he'd be like, you're kidding. That happened. I can't believe it. That's so strange, right?

Which in and of itself, too, like. And I've learned this, too, with making weekly phone calls is if I'm triggered or something happens. Just making that phone call or just reaching out and speaking it out into the universe, whatever you want to call it, like, just saying it out loud has helped me.

Me too.

And helped me, like, manage the trigger. Like, oh, wow, that really did happen. And when you say it out loud, you're like, oh, man, that's crazy. And then when someone else is like, yeah, bro, that's nuts. You're like, okay, cool. Like, got it. This is weird. And there's just something that happens in that moment.

Plus, I think, you know, as so many Christians, we don't live in a society where there's witchcraft and all that stuff is. We're kind of blind to the spiritual battle that's happening.

Aversive.

And so it wasn't until hindsight and looking back that I go, man, there were a lot of things that were happening that were just super bizarre. And now I know that it was the Enemy. At the time, I just thought, wow, that's just fate or whatever.

Yeah. Okay, so let's turn a little bit from a different perspective. When people go through a separation or a divorce, naturally you'd assume it would affect them and the spouse. But one of the biggest, biggest bystanders to that is going to be the children that are involved, that are a part of that family. So what can parents do if separation or divorce, if they're in the middle of it, if they think it's a possibility, what can they do to help their kids through that process as well?

Well, you know, I have to admit right up front that I don't have any children of my own.

Like bio kids?

Yeah, no bio kids. My second marriage, I had a stepdaughter who I love dearly. And one of the consequences is that she won't talk to me to this day. So I don't have direct relationship with children that have gone through this that were my own. But I have dealt with the product of that as stepchildren, and I see the consequences. And where I sit now with the view I have now, I would say the first thing is do whatever you can to avoid divorce because it will impact the kids.

Yeah.

I think one of the biggest lies we have been told is that kids are resilient. They'll rebound. But studies have shown that there are all kinds of effects that happen to children from increased incidence of criminal behavior and juveniles, drug abuse, drug abuse, early sexual experimentation. And one study I was reading followed these kids for 25 years. And there's a whole new level of dysfunction that takes place when they get into romantic relationships because of the dysfunctions they've seen. Yeah. And. And it's compounded because that most divorces. Most divorces don't just happen once. The parents who get divorced have. They get multiple divorces because the incidence becomes higher with each subsequent divorce. And that's not just with one parent. They've now got Two that are doing this. So they go through this lifetime seeing relationships put together, ripped apart, and marriage loses its meaning. And so, you know, I would say the first thing is to, is to avoid it at all costs if you have to do it, which I think you brought up, that some people don't have a choice. You know, divorce takes one person, marriage takes two. And so you're left holding the bag. And one of the things that I have seen is that oftentimes with moms, they transfer their identity to other children and their parenting becomes compromised. So, you know, and if they choose not to communicate with their children about what's happening, the children fill in the blanks. You know, they fill in those blanks and they'll either put it on themselves or they believe the story that the other spouse is telling them if you don't tell them what's going on. So I would say if you can't avoid divorce, get your children in counseling if you can, if it's age appropriate, but at least work with a counselor to determine the best way to communicate what's happening to them, because there are long lasting effects. And I see it all around me.

Our resident professor of Neurochemistry, Mrs. Heather Kolb, talks about how a divorce for kids, particularly if they're under the age of 10, is one of the most traumatic life events. And so I think if you have kids and you're in this situation, even if you think all my kids are okay, they understand you need to take seriously that this is going to be traumatic for them and look for opportunities to get them help, to have them sit with a child psychologist, to sit with a pastoral counselor who does kids work and just give them opportunities to vent, to talk, to process, because that can help them understand at a deeper level than just you working with your kids. The second thing I think, and we hear this a lot, is in group kids of divorced parents who will say, I, I internalized it and felt like it was my fault. I felt like if I'd have been a better kid, if I would have toed the line, better dad would have stayed. And so if you're the parent in that situation, you need to be the one. And this is a more than a one time thing. But going to them routinely and expressing this is not your fault. There's nothing you could have done to make our marriage work. It wasn't about you. So that this child grows up hearing that. Because when the enemy does try to come a couple years down the road and say, well, if you'd have Just been a better daughter, you're probably parents would have stayed married. They need to have many years of you saying this isn't your fault. And then the final thing I think about is to take seriously your role of what you're modeling to your kids. Because if you're very bitter and vindictive and angry towards your spouse, your kids are probably going to grow up the same way. Or they're going to choose the other side because they're going to see your anger and all that bitterness and go, well, she's wrong or he's wrong. I'm going to side with the other one. Versus if you choose to walk in humility and grace and forgiveness. And yes, there may need to be some honest conversations about why you have certain boundaries or maybe concerns you have about the other house your kids are going to. But if you do that out of a stance of love and a desire to see the best for your kids and not this angry, bitter, you know, prove how bad they are, really, you're just. You're poisoning your kids against who is their other parent. And, and you want them to have a relationship with that parent for the rest of their life and give them the best chance possible for that to be a healthy relationship. So much of that is your choice how you react. So you may be bitter and angry and vindictive, but bringing that out with your kids isn't the place to do it. You need to do that with a counselor, in a group, with a close friend that can help you. But if you're processing out loud with your own kids, don't be surprised if that turns them into some vindictive, angry people as well. So just think about what you're modeling, because your kids will grow up in that.

Yeah, I think the only thing I can think of really, is just an offshoot of that is to own your piece of it and to share that as appropriately as possible. Like, you know, if you've got a young kid and it's because of sexual addiction, don't share all the nitty gritty details, but share the facts that, you know, mommy did this and this is what's happening, or daddy did this, and then this is what's happening. And not again. You're. You're speaking from your perspective. This is what I did. This is what I brought into this relationship and the dysfunction that I have caused. Because I think that what that does is that really what that'll do is help start or create that culture where it's okay to not be okay. It's okay to not be perfect. I mean, I grew up in a house where I felt like mom and dad were perfect. And if I could have just seen more glimpses, for me, I think there would have been less shame in the culture if I could see some glimpses of their brokenness. And again, always done in an appropriate level, you know, but just own your own stuff and share that as appropriately as you can.

Yeah, you know, I'd like.

True. In any marriage.

Yeah, I'd like to coattail on that. You. You know that talking about owning your own stuff, one of the things you see is the. The spouses are in so much pain that they are so focused on trying to meet their own needs that they're unavailable for their kids for a period of time. Or they're just in so much pain, they're curled up in a ball in a puddle on the bed for two years. Well, when you're absent that long from your children during a crucial period of their growth, they end up learning to take care of themselves and medicate in unhealthy ways. So you end up inadvertently creating dysfunction in how they process pain.

So if we're in group very long, um, it's likely at some point we'll be working with someone in the group who is recently divorced. Getting divorced. If we're in a group with someone in that situation, how can we best support and help them in the situation they're in?

Man, having gone through the whole diverse process, I think the best thing is just come alongside. I mean, there is no, you know, trait cliches don't help. You know, time heals all wounds, that kind of thing. It doesn't help when you're in the business. There may be some truth to that, but I think just sitting with them and going, man, I know exactly how you feel, you know, and pushing them towards Jesus and going, hey, you know, you have. And you have to own part of this, right? You picked this woman or this guy. And if you don't get some health, you're likely to pick a very similar guy again. And so you have to change how you view the world, your identity, where you're getting those things and helping them walk through that. Because it's almost incapacitating. You know, you're just. You're phoning it in at work. You're just showing up, going home.

You're.

It's just hard.

Yeah.

So just having somebody there that understands, it's following up on you, checking on you. Hey, how are you doing? I know you're hurting. You doing okay, tonight you need to go down, grab some dinner with me or, you know, get out of the house. For me, that was one of the things I hated going back to the house because it was alone. So I would stay out at the sports pub till 9 o' clock at night before I'd go home. So I could just go home, take a shower and jump in bed and then I'd leave first thing in the morning. So I didn't want to be alone. But I also didn't have any emotional capital to give to anybody either. So, you know, I just try and reach out to those guys and say, hey, I'm thinking about you. If you need me, I'm here. If you want to text me. Yeah, you know, whatever it is, I.

Think it's important too, because I think you're alluding to it that you also don't want to like hover. I think that that's one of the things I've noticed in the church. When someone goes through a separation or divorce, everyone just kind of like flocks to that person. And I think that's overwhelming. What I've, what I've experienced and seen is that's pretty overwhelming. At first, maybe it's super nice, but. But then eventually it's like every time someone sees me, they ask, oh, how are you doing? Are you okay? Like, what can I get for you? Is the meal train still coming? Like all those kind of things. And I think that there's got to be space for that person to process. I think in community it's always important, but also they need to work on themselves. And so we talk about it all the time, don't care more about someone else's health or recovery than they do. I think when it comes to separation and divorce, as a group member, even as a group leader, it's easy to think, oh, I need to help them solve this problem. Here's where I preach a little bit of a sermon. I think that people tend to try to solve other people's problems not just because they want to help, but because I'm uncomfortable when you suffer.

Right.

So if I can help you fix it so you can get over it, then I can start feeling better. So if you could just hurry up and I could be a part of that.

That's the husband's dilemma.

Divorce is disrupting our group.

Right?

Stop it.

Right. But I think that that's the wrong thing, thing to do. So I think what you're talking about, consistent check ins is great. Being, being in their life, having the posture of Being there when they come to you is more important than you always pursuing them. Even as I was taking notes for this episode, I was thinking, like, consistently and constantly checking in. And then I erase the word constantly. I'm like, that would be annoying. You don't want that. You want someone who's there but not always up in your face.

Yeah, it's kind of hard because, you know, when someone's to.

Going.

Going through that, that's all they're thinking about. I remember going to the dentist, and you lay down in the chair, open my mouth. And she's like, how are you today? I'm like, oh, I'm going through a divorce.

I just barfed all over the gal.

And it's just all you can think of. It's consuming everything.

So do something different. That's what I would say, too. Go golfing. Go see a movie. Go, you know, whatever.

Get them moving. Yeah, yeah. Get them out of the house, off the couch.

A couple of things that come to mind for me, and I totally agree with everything you guys said. So for the listener, you know, start there. Start on the gray side, the present side. But two helpful things that come to mind. There may be a tendency for that person to really be focused on the other person. She did. She won't. She said, and in your group, to just lovingly and kindly say, hey, let's. Let's remember that we're here to work on us and look at what's going on in our life. And we know you're angry, we know you're venting, but what does God want to do in you right now? What's God teaching you? And just gently redirecting them back to, let's not point the finger and blame, but let's just ask God, what do you want to do in my life? And the other one, that it's less common because it's unlikely that the person pursuing divorce is in group. That's just less common. But if you are in group with someone who's pressing the divorce and you have a bridge of relationship with them, that it's a healthy enough relationship. If you recognize, you really believe they're pursuing divorce out of escaping, just venting their anger, I think you are the right person in love to go to them and say, hey, I. I feel like from what I hear from you, you're just doing this because you're tired of working on it. Or you're pursuing divorce because she's angry at you. And I don't believe that's God's best for you and doing it from that stance of, I want, I'm on the side of marriage. I'm not picking her side or your side. I'm on the side of marriage is thriving. And I feel like what's going on here, having the willingness to challenge someone if you sense what they're doing is really just a way of escaping the pain. Because I think we all need that in our life, that we will any one of us make decisions that are driven by pain or fear or just, we're tired and we want to quit. And that's where part of sharing someone's burden might be to say, I know you feel like quitting, but is that the right thing to do here? And how could we help you carry this burden? To see. And that's. I think what I've heard leaders say that's really helpful is they'll say to maybe someone new in group who's just vending, like, I'm divorcing him and he's out here is the group leader will say, hey, would you be willing to just press pause on that for six months? Particularly if they're trying to pursue their healing, say they're. They're doing some work, you're doing some work. Could we just push pause on that? And that's where, you know, if needed, maybe a separation that's intentional or a pause on, hey, we're sleeping in different rooms for a while, but we're both agree. I'm not going to press the divorce button because I'm going to see in six months where we're at. It's just talking a person down the ledge enough for them to take a deep breath so that they don't do something out of their emotional pain that then they look back on and go, wow, did. Did that even have to happen? So being willing when it's appropriate. And again, we don't want to be telling people how to live their life and what you're wrong. But. But in group, we develop that kind of relationship that we could say to someone, hey, I love you enough to ask, are you doing the right thing here? And maybe help them consider their options.

I think something that needs to be said is that there is a difference between separation and divorce. And I think that there are. And I have heard of times where separation is appropriate and has been helpful. And I don't necessarily mean that you go. You separate and go see other people and that sort of thing. I mean, if there is like a physical break that you take, whether it's sleeping in another room, or you move in with a friend or family, I think that that's okay. If it's done in the way that we're working to reconcile this back together. We're not just pressing pause and then I'm just going to go live my life and not think about it. That's not separation in my mind. That's. That's a cutting off of relationship separation. And we talk about it too. I think of Bob and Rebecca Vandermeer on the episode Sex During Recovery. Recovery that you take an intentional season of separation with sexual intimacy in order to reset and to then come back together and explore that. And I think that something similar in this is not always a bad idea.

If you're at a place where you can't even have a civil conversation, because every single conversation turns into emotional explosions. And that's an indication like we need enough space just to learn to breathe and think clearly so that we can have the kind of conversations to bring us together. So there, there are reasons that, like you say, a separation can be the right thing, but would really encourage someone to make that consideration with the help of friends or a group or a counselor. That's really helping them see what's the purpose behind this and what's the good that can come of it.

Yeah. Having I went through a separation for a period of time and having seen it in group, I would recommend that someone does not separate unless they are under the watchful eye of a counselor that has a reconciliation plan. Because so often the wife of the addict uses separation as the first step towards divorce and they never get back together, which is what happened with mine. She wanted me out, and so I went out before I got a counselor involved and I never was able to get back in. So I would suggest that you always have some. Somebody that's shepherding that process and being intentional about what kind of healing is taking place so that that reconciliation can come together. The other thing, Nick, you sparked in my mind was one of the things, you know, in the guys groups, oftentimes it's the wife who's threatening divorce and so. Or even taking steps towards divorce by retaining an attorney or whatever the case. And I will often step alongside the guy and say, let's pray for your family together. And so I'll almost regularly send them texts saying, hey, I'm praying for you and your family this morning. Don't give up. Keep praying. You know, God can do some amazing things. Just keep doing what you need to do to keep them on the path and to keep them somewhat Hopeful, because God does reconcile. And like I said in group, if the guy's doing his work more, more often than not, divorce is not the end. It's not the result of the process. But if he gives up too early, for sure, that's more than likely the result. Yeah.

All right, so let's look at it from the perspective of a group leader. If you're a group leader and you're listening to this, you might have had this experience, you might not have had this experience. What would you guys say as two guys who've also led group? What does a group leader need to know about separation? Divorce. Divorce. Just the topic in general to help be a great. A group leader for someone going through it.

Yeah. Well, having experienced it, you know, I feel like I can really.

Just so we make sure we're not saying go out and get divorced. So you have that experience.

Don't do that. But having experienced it, I. I have a good idea what they're going through. So, yeah, I'm able to kind of step alongside oftentimes and just encourage them. But I do know that there are potential legal issues that we have to be aware of related to what can be shared in court or who can be brought into court related to a divorce. So we have to be mindful of that. Yeah.

When you're the group leader, if someone starts talking about, we're separating, she filed divorce papers, one of your first questions needs to be, are you seeing a counselor? Because you don't want to put yourself in the role of, hey, we'll be your counselor. We'll be your therapist and get you through through this. That's not your job. You're there to be the friend and the group and the peer when they're at this level. That's really where you got to step up and say, I strongly encourage you to as soon as possible, get into a good Christian counselor and not try to go through this process without that. Then the second thing I really encourage a group leader is make sure you avoid empty promises of, hey, if you just do your work and you pray, like, God will save your marriage, because that can set a person up for, like we've talked about, it may not be saved. And the other person, I can do all the right stuff and they can still do what they want to do. And if I've been given all these promises, hey, if I just trust God and trust the process, my marriage will be saved. Well, then it's like, well, why continue with this group? I was only doing it save my marriage. And it didn't work. So as a group leader, to cast vision to say, we want you to get healthy and the healthiest use of the best chance at a healthy marriage. But even if your marriage doesn't make it, isn't a healthy you what you want? Because the other reality is high, high percentage of people will be remarried. And so a healthy you, whether it's in this marriage or the one to come, is your vision. So helping a person with that. And then, as you said, Mike, about legal issues, as soon as you hear someone starting to talk about lawyers cases, you really need to hit a pause button and check in with them. Is it appropriate for them to be in group? And so if they have a lawyer, step one is they need to talk to their lawyer and let them know, hey, I'm in this kind of group where I'm sharing these things. Is that appropriate for me? Because groups are not immune from having to be subpoenaed and testify in court. And if you're coming and venting about all these things and then your group members have to testify in court, what was he saying this about the wife was you may have to say things that could really hurt, hurt your friend or group member because they were honest with you.

Right.

So particularly when there's. What we look at, when there's custody battles for kids, there's legal issues like that, that one person's reputation is really the determining factor for that season. They may need to step out of group. In fact, in, in many of those cases, they do need to step out of group so that the group is safe from having to testify in court and you're not having to guard your words. So for a season there, that person will likely just meet with a counselor or therapist. But then once the legal parts, and you know, thankfully in divorces, there's not the intensity of the legal battle for very long. Once some of those things are kind of in place and decided, even if, you know all the paperwork's not finalized, if your lawyer's saying, hey, no, you're fine, this isn't going to come up, then you're doing it in good conscience that I can engage in this group. But we just, we always want a legal professional to be guiding you in that so that the group's not trying to say, oh, yeah, you're fine, and then find out, oh, yeah, this wasn't fine because they shared things with us that really is going to work against them in the long run.

I think as a group leader, to understand that if someone in group does end up getting a divorce, that is not a reflection of your leadership and that's not a reflection of the quality of the group. Even if every person that comes into your group gets divorced, doesn't mean you're a bad leader. It doesn't mean that the group didn't go well.

It is a strange coincidence.

It is a strange coincidence, sure. But I, but I think the principle still remains true that it's not your responsibility to save marriages. It's your responsibility to facilitate and share your recovery and your journey and invite other people into it. And really they have to do the work. So just make sure that you remember that for sure.

So if we, if we take it to another level as a church, what do you think are ways that churches should be responding to men and women that are in a separation or divorce situation? How do we, how do we help be a part of health and not contribute to the struggles and the problems?

You know, I think, I don't, I don't know if I should have to say this, but the caveat is this divorce is not God's plan. We've said that here. And you know, it's not as ideal. So we should, we should not, however, pass judgment on these people. One of the things I think we need to recognize from the outside is this is a death in the person's life. Like you said, it's more traumatic than for a 10 year old. It's traumatic for the parent. You know, I would say that it was more painful in a long term consequence than my mother's death, who I love dearly because I know I'm going to see her again. It's one of those things you have to accept it's got some closure. With divorce, it's not always that way. And if there's children involved, it's just a continual stab in your chest. So to recognize that these people are in pain when you find out that they're going through divorce and then to realize that it may not have been, you know, I said before, it takes one to get divorced, it takes two to get married. It may not have been their choice. So they are in this situation maybe by their own choosing, maybe not. But it is also a place where God can meet them and really do some work in their lives. And in my estimation, these people can become great faith encouragers in your church. If you walk them through this process in a healthy way, I think they can be an asset to the church. The challenges, you know, having been through two divorces, I look back now, of course there's a lot of pain around it. And I know that wasn't God's will. And one of those I initiated, but I was a different place in my faith at that point, and I'm not there anymore. And so we have to recognize that people make mistakes. Divorce just happens to be more visible than a lot of the mistakes that other people are making. They can hide it hard to hide divorce.

Yeah. I think churches have to make sure that they don't clearly choose a side without knowing the situation. I think you need to take time to hear from people to continue to express, we're on the side of marriages, not you or the spouse. The reality I saw as a pastor for 14 years is it's almost impossible for both spouses to remain in the faith community they were in. But at the. At the other side of that, you don't want to then just assume who that should be that stays and who should go. Some of that will work itself out in relationships and over time, I think the posture of the church needs to be, we love you. We want to see your best. And, you know, depending on your church polity and structure, you may have some statements you make about the reason behind a divorce, or if someone you know divorces for a reason you feel is not biblical, that's really a church polity issue. And your leadership needs to guide that process. But for you as a part of the church body, just to express love and grace and acceptance. But maybe that reality of they're probably not both going to stay, just relationally, it's too difficult. But hopefully they both know no matter where they end up at church, they both know they're loved and they're cared for by the people there in your church.

Yeah, a couple things, I just wrote them down as you guys were talking about it. I think that it's easy to get discouraged when someone's going through that as a friend, you reach out and you're not going to get a lot of response. Maybe up front and over time, you're just like, you know what? I give up. I don't want to keep reaching out to this person because they're not engaging. I think it's important to still keep reaching out, to still make sure you're in that person's life to some degree. Because when they do need community, if you've done it right, then you've positioned yourself as a safe person for them. And then to another thing, I think that churches do, and we've talked about this, I think, on the podcast before, and they do it Inadvertently, they basically glorify marriages and then almost say, like, if you're single or. Or if you get a divorce and now you're unmarried, that, like, you. We need to just get you married again in order to be who God's created you to be. That's B.S. honestly, in my opinion, I think that you can be single and just as godly. We see that in scripture. But I think it's important, too, to allow those people to tell their story, whether they get remarried or not. Allow those people to tell their story because they're going to reach people in your church that maybe you haven't yet because you haven't had that experience or you haven't addressed that topic. So don't glorify marriage and basically inadvertently shame people who remain single. Give both people voices.

Yeah, it's important.

You know, one of the other things I was thinking as we talked about this particular question is when there's a divorce in the church, you think about a small group, whatever people, not only the leadership, has the option of going, hey, who should be staying in my church? Those small groups do too. Do they have to take sides in this situation? I recently had a friend and his wife that were separated because of some infidelity. And I approached the husband to try and come alongside him, and the wife got angry. She. She felt like my support for him was kind of a validation that he was right and she was wrong. He was clearly wrong. But there's those kind of dynamics, too, that just create all kinds of challenges within the church. And so we need to have. We need to have better resources for dealing with divorce before and as it's taking place. When I went through my second divorce out of the church, one person came to my work and said, mike, what's going on? Not one pastor approached me. No one. And I don't think anyone approached her. They were just like, well, this happens. We're just going to let it happen. And I really felt like if other couples would have come alongside us, they could have possibly supported us in trying to work through some of those issues that seemed so emotionally heavy that they were. That we would be unable to work through those. It was just a dead end. So I think that's one area where the church does not typically and generally do a great job. They just kind of go, well, divorce is one of those things in our society, and it's going to happen and somebody's leaving the church.

And you brought up a point that I wish didn't have to be said, but I think should Be clarified that in your story there, Mike, it was important that you were the man coming alongside a man to be the friend and support, even if he was in the wrong. But that's much better. Men should follow up with the men. Women should follow up the women. And not being in an unfortunate position where you're trying to reach across that gender line because they are, they're hurting and they're wounded, and the likelihood for inappropriate attachment or emotional bonding, there's just a lot of danger there. So be wise to that. And if, if it is, you know, you're the man and you have a few female friend, how can I approach them with my spouse or with another female? You may be part of their friendship group, but it's really not appropriate for men to reach out to the woman in divorce and vice versa. There's just so much danger there of what can happen. And so that's where I look at in a divorce situation. If I'm in a group, I should be reaching out to the guy, whether he's in the wrong, I believe, or he's the one suffering because he's in the right. And sometimes there's not real clear which is which. But that just helps me know, well, I'm the guy. I should reach out to the guy and just say, hey, how can I help? I'm praying for you. And that is really the best kind of follow up.

Yeah. You know, there's another warning in there too, because what you see happen sometimes is a gal who's going through divorce connecting with a guy who's going through divorce in the church. They're still both married, but they're trying to console each other. And that also is fraught with all kinds of dangers.

Yeah. All right, so this has been great. I think this has been even better than I expected. So appreciate you guys. Let's finish with this last question. If separation or divorce is a part of our story, how can we as individuals really maintain or ensure that we're still moving forward in recovery?

You know, as I was kind of pre thinking about this question, the. The phrase that came to my mind was Andrew Murray once said, the key to never thirsting is ever thirsting. And I think once you begin this journey of spiritual growth and healing, that you just never stop and you continue to pursue that and you reach back and help other people. And you mentioned First Corinthians 4. You know, we are healed so that we can comfort those in the, in the, like, troubles that we've been experienced and comforted by. So I think you know, I always encourage people, even when they're in group and they're getting freedom from sexual addiction or whatever it is. God's healing you so that it's not just for you. He's healing you to reach back and help somebody else. That's. This might be the thing that God uses to allow you to participate in his kingdom in the most impactful way. Yeah.

Yeah. I think it's an opportunity to renew our focus, because maybe the divorce or separation reveals I was mostly in it for my spouse, and I was mainly doing it to try to save my marriage. And now that that didn't work, I feel at a loss. It's picking a new focus of recognizing, well, I want to be a better dad or mom for my kids, and so I need to stay healthy. Or I recognize I'm probably at an age I'll get remarried someday. So I'm. I'm doing it so I have a better next marriage. Or as we've talked about, the ultimate of just, I want to be healthy before God and all men and women. So I'm doing it for my own journey. It's finding that new focus and not getting discouraged. If you realize I was doing it to save the marriage, that's human nature. That just means your marriage mattered and you wanted it to work, and if it didn't, there's an opportunity to see, okay, how can I choose a new focus and recognize this is more than just saving that one marriage? It's about, what does God want to do in my life and allowing him to bring that focus and keep you moving towards health.

Yeah.

I think a part of that focus and a part of really maintaining recovery is just vulnerability. And that'd be my encouragement. Just continue to be real about what's going on. Invite people in being honest and not. Because I think that, you know, the people who know you're going through a divorce or separation, they're going to assume that you're weak and struggling, and that's fine. If there's some period of time that goes on and you still feel like you're struggling, you still feel like you're weak, be honest with people about it. You don't have to put the armor back on and look like you haven't figured out you got it all together, that actually is less appealing and less inviting, don't do that. But just continue to be honest with at least some people in your community.

So, yeah. So good.

So really fun topic today, guys. This is important.

Really important. So important.

You guys are right, like, and it's something that if the church doesn't handle well, if you look at the stats, then more and more people are honestly are going to leave the church, they're not going to come back, and they're going to pursue relationships other places where they're welcome.

So I actually read a stat that said that religious affiliation and involvement in faith community drops based on the number of divorces you experience. Yeah.

Yeah. So it's just so important to really have a proper understanding of. Of this topic as much as you can, you know, not necessarily having to experience it, but understanding it and then also how we respond is so important. So we hope that today's episode was encouraging to you guys out there listening and that this helps equip you to have the right conversations and support people and really, if you're in this situation, to know that God still loves you and that there are people out there who will love you and walk through this difficult situation with you. So.

And you're not ostracized from participation in God's word.

Amen. Appreciate it, guys. Thanks.

Yep, thanks.

Thanks, Trevor.

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