118 - FAQ #9

Foreign.

You're listening to the Pure Desire Podcast. Your safe place to find hope, healing and freedom from sexual addiction, betrayal and relationship issues. The opposite of addiction is not sobriety, it's connection. Battling sexual brokenness and the effects it brings is not something that can be done alone. Pure Desire groups exist to be your safe place to find freedom, recovery and healing from sexual brokenness, betrayal and relationship issues. Whether you or someone you love is struggling or you've experienced betrayal, there is a group for you. Pure Desire is here to give you the roadmap to healing. To find a group online or in your area, visit PureDesire.org groups.

What'S up, people? I'm your host, Trevor Windsor, and you are listening to episode 118 of the Pure Desire Podcast. Here with me is my co host, as always, Nick Stumbo.

Closed on Sundays.

Chick Fil? A.

You got it. I was trying to think about how to bring them in and use their slogans. So I'm online, right, searching for what is Chick Fil? A slogan? And the most common thing I can see at the bottom of their signs is Closed on Sunday.

So I think technically it's eat more chicken is like their thing. They've got all those commercials. But I still was tracking with you. We got it.

I could use that one. But I did think about this whole debate that's raging about Chick Fil? A and Popeyes that there is a day of the week Popeyes Chicken is always better on Sunday.

Shots fired.

Yeah.

Send your emails to Nick Suredesire.org if you disagree with them. No.

Chicken versus Popeyes. Chicken Popeyes is going to win that one every time.

That's true. That is true.

But I do, I do appreciate the culture of Chick Fil? A. That is said, we're better in six days a week than we are in seven.

I'm not a fan because every single Sunday I'm like, you know what?

I just got done with church.

Where do I want to go? I want to go to Chick Fil?

A. I said I'm a fan of the culture, not the reality.

Okay, fair. All right. Well, we sat down to talk about stuff other than Chick Fil? A with Bob Vandermeer, one of our clinicians and speakers. And we walked through some frequently asked questions.

Yeah, we did. And some really unique ones here, I think the kind of questions that many people have thought about but aren't sure how to ask or who to ask. And so hopefully this is an encouragement to them that we can apply a lot of the principles of healing when we just take them over to those areas, it's like, oh, there's wisdom here. Things like vulnerability and openness and health, that those principles apply even to some areas that maybe are harder for us to know how to think about. Yeah.

So it's topics from disclosure to demonic possession and influence to using sexual aids. There's a lot of marriage. Yeah, there's a lot of good stuff. So enjoy the episode. Bob, you're here. Thanks, friend. Yeah, glad to be here. Glad you're here. As you heard in the intro, we are walking through some frequently asked questions. And so some of these are sent in from some of our listeners and then some are some we got from events. So we're just going to jump right in with the first question that was submitted by Warren K. He is, he.

Asks a lot of questions.

Warren K. You ask a lot of questions. We appreciate that, buddy. Okay. His question is, some of us, through personality or habit, like to get caught up in details. And a lot of time details matter. So when it comes to disclosures with our ladies or check ins with our group members, what are some guardrails guidelines and referencing the details that we share.

Yeah, great question, Warren. That's why we have it on the podcast. You, you know, I think that sometimes we can get drawn to details because it logically will help us to stay away from emotion. And so my first question, just as a clinician would say would be, you like, are you using, are you using details and logic as a way to avoid having to feel and think through the emotions that you're experiencing? And that's one of the things that, that I think comes out a lot in particularly with guys that tend to be those. Right. Brain, logic, kind of the other thing. So I see kind of two questions here. The other question is, you know, disclosures and check ins and are there good guardrails guidelines? So what I hear you asking that question is, are some of my details unsafe or not beneficial for the people that I'm sharing them with? And I think that, that the answer that question might be yes. So the guardrails and guidelines, I mean, if you're in a group setting, you know, make sure you're not listing anything that you think would be triggering for the people that are participating in that conversation. So, you know, in general, no acting out locations, no acting out publications, websites, names of people that you're searching for. You know, we tend to also sometimes use slang when it comes to body parts. And so, you know, call it what it is, not what you know, you call it in the locker room or whatever else. And some of those things just help because otherwise we can kind of with our language sometimes be a little bit exhibitionistic. Yeah. That will say things a certain way because we want to do it for shock value. And so if your details are again, you're listing things that might be triggering or you're phrasing it in a way that might be not just straightforward and calling it what it is, then again I would say, why are you saying it that way? If it's just details and you're long winded, then there should be a timer in your group and you should follow that timer. Because some people just use more words than others. Like I'm doing right now. Continuing this run on sentence.

Yeah, thanks, Bob. Nice work. And I think the thing about slang, we need to realize sometimes people use the slang because the word itself is triggering and they're accustomed to hearing it that way or on certain movies or websites and even the word we've used because it's part of what triggers us. And so I think training yourself to use the actual names for body parts or behaviors, that is far less triggering, particularly if you're doing a check in. And I think it can be sobering for you as an individual to realize when I use the actual word for it, I, I feel differently about it. And it can change even the way we interact with some of the things that are problematic for us. So I agree with the things you said, Bob. I think for check ins, we also want to just be aware that we're not going to give graphic descriptions. We're not going to give the details of our lust and fantasy. We've talked about that on the podcast before, that when you're sharing with a spouse or someone of the opposite gender because you know you're engaged or married, that going down that pathway of your fantasy is really not beneficial to them because they're trying to understand the depth of your wickedness or the evil in the human heart. And that's just not a healthy pursuit. It's not going to lead to new understanding. It just becomes a wormhole of where does the evil stop when we really go into our lust and fantasy. But there, I would say to this question, there are places where as they lead, as they talk about, the details do matter. So we've talked with Jay Stringer about understanding how our lust and fantasy can reveal our wounds and trauma. So there are people you can go to if you think the details matter to a counselor or to perhaps a mature group leader or friend that has a deep understanding of this area and share some of those details that you think are maybe pertinent to why you're struggling the way you are or what you're drawn to. It's just not appropriate to go to that level with the whole group or when you're trying to share a disclosure to a significant other. So there is a right time and place that some of those details might be helpful in unpacking. You know, why does a certain fantasy have such a power over me? And the details of it may actually be what unlocks where's this coming from. But that's not the purpose of a group or a disclosure with a significant other.

I found that it's helpful for me when. Because you'll realize this if you're in recovery and in group and doing this kind of work is that you realize you'll pick up on themes and not just what I'm looking at, but more why I'm looking at what motivated me, what got me to that place. And I think that that's where we should be detailed, where something triggering happened on Tuesday, Wednesday I started doing this, and then Thursday I ended up acting out. And so I think that you can. Those are basically what I'm saying is those are the facts that are very important. Those are the ones that you want to dig down deep, find those and be able to communicate those. Now, if it's to like a girlfriend, I would try to stay as factual as you can. If a relapse happened, say that a relapse happened. And if you have a recovery action plan in place or you've got some other tools in place, then use those as needed. But then when you're talking to your guys in group or your ladies in group that you're going through this with, then I would just try to get down to that point where you're looking at what motivated this. What was the chain of events that brought me in to that relapse or brought me to that place and be factual with those.

Yeah, and that's a great reminder, Trevor, especially if you are a group member, someone is sharing their report or maybe even admitting to a relapse. It's common for them to be pretty fuzzy. Like, yeah, I had a rough night Friday night, ended up looking at some stuff. Well, there's a whole lot of places there you could go for. Like, well, let's ask a little bit more. And I think what you're saying, let's look at what led you to that place rather than getting too detailed on. Okay, what exactly did you look at? I do think it's helpful in a group to sometimes if a person is being vague to say, could we be a little more specific? Did you view pornography? Was it just provocative material? Were you just watching some PG movie? Were you going hardcore to at least gauge the level of struggle? But yeah, then not the detail of. Okay, what was it exactly? Look at the pattern. That's far more important.

Yeah. So what I hear is the details. It's not that being detailed is an issue, but it's the type of details that you're sharing. Some of them are really helpful in understanding. All right, what day of the week do I typically act out? What time, you know, what type of thing am I looking at? But they don't need to know anything that's going to be triggering for them. Interesting. In our questions here, we have a misspelling. It says detail itis. Yeah. So, you know, if you've got detail itis, you might want to, you know, check in and make sure that you're not sharing unhealthy details.

For sure.

But there's some stuff that obviously can be helpful.

Yeah. So second question relates to single people. So guys or gals that if they've achieved some sobriety, they're getting healthy and then they enter into a new relationship, what does disclosure look like for them? Would they still do a standard disclosure like what might happen in a marriage, or is it better for them to say, you know, this is an issue I've had in the past and these are some things or guidelines of what I did and I'm still doing to maintain sobriety. And finally, when would something like that even be appropriate? So at what point in the relationship would we recommend that a single person bring that in and talk to their. The person they're dating?

I think that when you start a relationship, if you are in recovery, I think that that fact. Saying that, that I am working on a specific area recovery, that that's important to say even up front. I think that if you're working toward health, that's something that should be communicated earlier on. I think that you shouldn't do disclosure like you go out to get coffee and you're deciding if you want to ask this person out and you're like, well, let me tell you my entire negative sexual history. That's probably not a great thing to do on or third date. But I think that I would start with you, you being honest about what's going on in your life, that you're pursuing health in the area of Sexuality. And you can use general terms like that if you need to, but I think a lot of this, too. And, Bob, as a clinician, I'd love to hear what you have to say on this. I think it depends on, too, where you're at in recovery, that if it's in your first few months of recovery, maybe you got to pump the brakes a little bit, get some sobriety, get some understanding of what's going on under the surface before you start disclosing that information. But if you're, like, two years into it and you understand the pattern of your addiction and understand the wounds and the roots, then I think that you're in a different place and can maybe have that disclosure, that conversation earlier on.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think if you're in the early stages of recovery and you're not in a relationship, then you shouldn't be pursuing a relationship. And that's not saying you can't ever, but it's saying, like, that moment of your life. That season should really be about focusing on how to get healthy in this area. One of the ways we describe sexual addiction is as an attachment disorder. And so, like, with that understanding, what we're saying is that you've had a difficulty being able to attach, emotionally, connect with people, you know, emotionally and intimately. And so then you might want to pump the brakes, use that phrase again, just in relationship in general. But, you know, if you've got some recovery under your belt, then I'd say, hey, this is a part of health. You use that word also, Trevor. Like, this is health. At one point, when you entered recovery, it was because, like, it was all shame and guilt and. And, you know, you weren't proud of where you were. Hopefully your recovery has been something where now it's a positive thing in your life where you've been able to see God's grace in this area. And if that's the case, then we don't want to hide that. Like, we want to reframe it. So as we're talking to people, we can say, hey, like, this is where it's going on in my life. Like, these are healthy things I'm doing. I'm doing. I'm pursuing health this way. I'm in a group with other guys that are pursuing health. And now it's not this negative connotation. It's a thing that you're positively working on as far as the levels of disclosure to those people. Yeah, I mean, it's going to be appropriate at certain times. So when is it appropriate? I mean, I guess you could rephrase it another way. Like, how long do you feel like it's appropriate to keep secrets from people that you're close to?

Right.

So just kind of, you know, just to kind of weigh that out. Like, you've been. For most of your life, you've been living double lives. And so now that you're entering into new relationships, you don't want to perpetuate that pattern.

So here's. Here's something that just is crossing my mind. I would suggest. And what do you guys think? I would suggest if you are in a relationship and you get to a point where you're considering asking that person to marry you, disclosure needs to happen before that point.

Yes, please.

Yeah, I was thinking about it in terms of when you're making a commitment of tell death do us part. You know, you want to build a relationship on trust and intimacy. And intimacy, as we've talked about on this podcast, is built on someone who. They know me. They know everything about me, and they love me. And so if you've not opened up your life to share those kind of things, your love is built on a little bit of a false pretense. They don't really know everything about me. Now, that doesn't mean every detail like we talked about in the previous question, but that there needs to be an overview of. This is the life I've lived, this is the person I've been, and. And this is the healing I'm finding. But if you've been with other people, if you've had relationships, whether long term or short, whether you've been struggling, pornography, they need to have some awareness of, this is my reality, it's my story. So that when they say I love you, you know, they. They really mean me, not just a version of me that I've chosen to show them. So to me, it's kind of the scale. Like, the closer you get, the more necessary this becomes. And for sure, when you're making that till death do us part kind of commitment, you want to be able to do that, knowing I've got nothing to hide and they know it as well. And about the other person. I also loved what Heather Kolb shared on this podcast a couple of weeks ago on one of the women's episodes, that the healthier you are getting, the more naturally and organically this is just going to come into your relationship. And I think that's really true, that if you're pursuing your health all out, you're not going to have to, like, put a date on the Calendar, such and such day share sexual history with fiance. The more you're learning vulnerability and transparency. I think a lot of this is just going to come naturally in the development of your relationship. So I don't think you have to force it or rush it. But look at how are we developing this kind of closeness and when it's appropriate to start sharing and opening that part of your life, I think you'll know it and feel it. Yeah.

I think there's also a thing with this that. That says, okay, as we're moving forward in life and we're sharing about our history, about our past, there's some people that, as you do that they're going to be able to see that through the lens of health. There's other people because of their own past and their own hurts. If you share that, they're probably going to cut off the relationship. And there's times when it might. When. When we share something in vulnerability and in health and somebody else does not have the ability to process that well or to put it into a healthy context, it's easy for us to feel like, well, that was dumb. I'll just. I should never be vulnerable like that again. The reality is that there are still consequences from our past and from our actions. And though we're communicating some of these things in health, some of the consequences still might be, though new relationships that are affected. Yeah. And that doesn't mean that you shouldn't be vulnerable. That doesn't mean that you shouldn't necessarily, necessarily share with people that you're growing close to. It just means that still kind of an ongoing consequence of. Of what's going on in our life. But that doesn't mean that it's not healthy.

Yeah, absolutely.

All right, the next question we have is from Blaine B. What is your take on First Corinthians 6:16 where it talks about being joined with a prostitute? He's saying that that's not his personal experience, but that he had not saved himself for marriage. So now that I'm married going on 12 years, congratulations on that. I'm still Jo. Am I still joined to anyone I have slept with? And how does that work? And can that be broken?

Yeah, I think that's a good question. And when I look at First Corinthians 6, I don't think the apostle Paul intended to confine that only to someone who's in the role of a prostitute. But he's speaking of engaging with someone in an immoral way outside of the. The healthy bounds of. The healthy bounds of Marriage. And I think, yes, there's a lot of evidence, both spiritually and biologically, that says we're bonded to people. We've had that kind of intimacy with being. That's why in that same section, the apostle Paul references that the two become one. I think there's a spiritual connection and a brain or a biological connection through the chemicals that are released. And so for a person, if, you know, if that's 12 years ago, the brain side hopefully has changed. Hopefully you're not still thinking of that person or bonding to them some 12 years later. But if so, you may need to take steps to think about why is that person still entering my intimate thought life? Why do I still think of that connection with them? And probably with a counselor processing, why is that bond there? But particularly at the soul level, to really renounce those ties. It comes up in Seven Pillars of Freedom. There's a specific prayer and a little process men can go through. And we did a podcast with Diane Roberts where she talks through that. So I think there's a number of ways we just want to address. Is there any sense in which I haven't taken a real clear step to break any bonds that might be there? And I tell you, I look at it a little bit like, I don't think it's something you can easily or clearly define, but to me, it's like, better safe than sorry. If there's any sense where I might still, in my soul have a hook or an attachment to someone outside my marriage, better safe than sorry. Why wouldn't I take some steps to just make sure there's nothing residual there that's still affecting me? And so I think it's wise to look at that and go through that process in Seven Pillars, listen to the podcast and just make sure you've done what you can within yourself to not have any of that kind of intimate sexual bond to anyone other than your spouse.

Well, and I think even so, real quick, episode 105 is where we sat down with Diane, to be specific. And so we would suggest that Blaine and whoever else wants more information on that would listen to that. I thought Diane did a great job. I think it's important, though, to understand too, that you have to be self aware enough to identify that those people keep coming back to mind. I mean, I had to do that a couple years ago myself, but I would just. Just being honest about it, I think even. And I think that in marriage, too, it gets really messy. And you guys have been married longer than I have, so I'd ask you this question, at what point do you communicate, like a soul tie or something that you've identified, but at least with people in your community being honest about that sort of thing and then not being afraid to push into it? Because I think if you don't push into it, it's always going to be around. And, I mean, let's be honest, you don't want to be revisiting those people who are not in your life and were a part of the sexual unhealth in your life if you don't have to.

I mean, I think it's a lot of the stuff that stays secretive for us that. So if you have a sexual history that you haven't shared with either, you know, your spouse or people in your group or, you know, whoever you have in that community for you, then I'd say do that. Because there's a lot of times that shame is really a big driving force in what is reoccurring in our thoughts and what we're afraid of. And, you know, I mean, I guess my question for you, Blaine, is why are you asking this question? This isn't. Just doesn't seem like you're just looking for information because maybe you're writing a book on the topic. So I would say if there's some fear that's there for you, what is the fear? Like, is the fear that you're not able to be present with your wife? Is the fear that these things are the things that are keeping you relapsing or turning back to or having thoughts or, you know, whatever it is. Because I would maybe address that fear instead of looking for, you know, devil in, like, you know, hiding behind the rock or something. Like, okay, what's. What's the fear that's there? And again, I use this word in that last question. But there's also consequences. You know, we can't. We can't just ignore the consequences of choices from our past. But that also doesn't mean that those need to, like, I don't know, hold us down or bind us or, you know, keep us chained up. Like, we can still look at those and say, you know, all right, you know, Lord, there's something that I did that was unhealthy with that person. But I pray for health for them. And I also thank you for the relationship I have with my wife. We can take those thoughts, and it doesn't need to be something that's shameful for us. We can bring grace into that and include other people that are in our health and in our Community to just help us to have better perspective. Maybe.

I do think it's an area we have to make sure we don't inadvertently minimize things. I think it's kind of like when we do the 10 worst moments exercise in a group and someone will say, oh, I only got to three or four. I haven't really had anything traumatic. And it's like, well, you're a human being and I can pretty well guarantee you there are things. And when they start to process more and they say, well, this doesn't seem like a big deal, but then they'll, they'll tell a story that everyone else in the group is like, that's some pretty significant trauma. But the way we stay safe and protect ourselves is to minimize it and say, oh, it's no big deal. And I think that can happen with past relationships where it was like, oh, they didn't matter to me, or it was just a short thing and we were only engaged, involved a couple of times in sexual activity. And. And so to kind of protect ourselves, we minimize it when really with the help of a group or in a safe environment, if we could process the impact those relationships had on us. To me, I think that's maybe a bigger part of the soul ties. Isn't some, you know, as you say, Bob, this kind of hyper spiritualized bond that I didn't think about and it's haunting me? No, it's. It's really more the truth of did that relationship create some perspectives in your life, some woundedness? Is there some unfinished business just with yourself and God that comes out of that, that in minimizing it, we're missing the opportunity to become healthier and more present in our current relationship. So if you find yourself saying, oh yeah, I had lots of past relationships, but none of them matter to me, there could be some value actually in opening up that part of your life in a safe environment to say, how has this impacted me?

It's good.

All right, next question. Another one from Warren K. What should a guy do if his girlfriend, fiance, wife presses the issue and is no longer satisf by the men's Bible study answer when she asks what he's doing on group night, why the calls, homework during the week, etc. So really this is for anybody that's in recovery when you originally start pursuing health? Let's say that I'm just working on, I mean, whatever you fill in the blank, whatever you call it, at what point does that change?

Yeah, I think I maybe answered a little bit of this in a question earlier that when we first step into, let's just say, a seven Pillars group or Conqueror series or Unraveled or a Pillars or whatever trail and beyond. I mean, any of these groups, we step in there because there's been a crisis and because we feel shame. And like, we just. It's just, you know, it's not something we're bragging about. At some point, though, we have to shift our thinking that this is about health. And, you know, if this is about health, then we can't approach it the same way that we did our addiction. In other words, our addiction was done in secret. There was shame attached to it. And if now we're pursuing health and there's still shame attached to our health, then it's not all that different than what we were doing before. We're still sneaking around. We're still lying about what we're doing. We're still minimizing or avoiding questions. You know, we're still hanging out with people that we're not telling other people about. I mean, just there's. There's so many similarities. And it's like, well, no, this is something good. So I think I understand your question in terms of if I'm in this group and I don't have six months of sobriety, then when do I tell my girlfriend, fiance, wife, whatever? You know what? Like, in the long run, it's going to be better that your health is something that you're telling people about.

Yeah, 100%. And I think the question. When we talk about health, we know that a part of healthy living is openness, transparency, vulnerability. So it's not a question of if I'm going to tell them. It's a question of when. And if we ignore that, there will be a when. Then when that question gets asked, it comes time that it's now unavoidable that I'm engaging in some kind of process for my recovery that my significant other needs to know about. I think that perspective of there will be a when, when I'm completely transparent. It's maybe answering them now to kind of foreshadow or look forward to that. Say, you know, honey, I am. I have not been perfect when it comes to my sexual integrity. And I'm aware I've got work to do and I'm going all in. And I hope you'll see how sincere I am that I'm really working on some things. And I don't know if it'd be appropriate for me right now to try to tell you all the mistakes I've made. But I want you to know I'm committed to doing that and that's part of why I'm going through this process. So that when I do open fully that part of my life and I'm honest with you, it will be truthful. I won't be blaming or hiding anything at all. Yeah. And so I'm moving towards integrity and I believe this is going to be good for both of us. So that kind of a response that says, I don't know that it's right to tell you everything now, but I will might help them walk that process with you. And it also can be an opportunity for them then to engage that I may need to start meeting with people that could support me because they're not going to be the only one going through a process of what's going on in my spouse's life and how do I handle this? This. It moves both parts of the couple towards community.

I think what I hear in this question is fear really like being maybe a relationship being broken. I would say this, that the status of our health is more important than the status of our relationship. So if you have to be honest and that means a relationship is going to end and maybe this is more toward the girlfriend fiance phase, I would say that you being honest if the relationship ends, that was still a step toward health free you. And so I'm just piggybacking really what you guys are saying that we need to do what's necessary to be healthy. And being open and honest about it is essential to that. In marriage, it gets a little bit more complicated. But if you both are committed to the relationship, then you do the hard work of recovery together and continue pouring into the relationship and moving forward in your own personal health. But I would just be aware that when I've asked questions like this in my life, it's always been fear driven of losing something rather than gaining help. And so I think that paradigm's got to shift there.

Yeah. So our nanny came over the other day and when she got to the house, I said, hey, do you want the front door to open or do you want to close? She's like, I don't care. I was like, well, how about half closed? She's like, technically that's still open. I was like, all right. What about like just cracked? She's like, again, technically that's still open. So I think, you know, Nick, you use a phrase like we're more. I'm moving towards integrity. Well, in your spouse's or girlfriend's or fiance's perspective that's still lying, right? Like, I'm moving towards. So, like, you've been lying about your behavior and now you're going to tell them, like, I'm moving towards integrity. So, like, to them, what they're hearing is, oh, okay, so you're still lying about stuff. So to think of this whole thing through their perspective, like, the sooner you get down to the truth, the better for them because that's going to be less backlog of you lying about things. I know that doesn't sound fun, but, like what, what your spouse or girlfriend or fiance is hearing is you're being partially truthful, which means you're still just lying. That doesn't work out well.

And that's exactly what I was going to jump in and say that one of the first things a person encounters in a group is that they need to stop denial and face reality at all costs. Which that means being committed to being a truth teller. So in this conversation, you need to have a commitment that I'm not going to lie, that there's not a future date. I'm going to become a truth teller. That in this journey towards integrity, I'm committing to be a truth teller. So I think the way it can come up with a spouse or fiance is they say, well, you don't struggle with that, do you? Which of course is a double buying question, because it's like implying that any good healthy person wouldn't struggle with this. So I'm telling you, you shouldn't be. But as you're committing to health, your response needs to be, actually, I do struggle with this. And if they're pressing for more info, I think you need to just be committed to not lying. But in that commitment to not lying, also seeing there's wisdom in not answering every single question immediately. So sometimes needing to say to a spouse or a girlfriend, like, I know that's information you want immediately. I'm just fearful if we try to do this right now, I'm still stuck in some of my stuff. And that's what we've talked about, like on the podcast, on Disclosure and other podcasts, just that that there is a right time and way to share your whole story. And sometimes in the midst of being grilled, we're likely to share details and information that in the end actually makes the wounding worse. Now, the reality for couples is that's hard to remember in the midst of an argument or things are getting heated, but I think if you just go back to that place of I'm going to be a Truth teller. But I'm going to try to do it in the best way possible that that can help you make some wise decisions.

Yeah, you better have a plan though, because if you say, yeah, I'm not going to tell you all the answers now. Well, when are you going to tell them to me? Well, you know, when it's the right time. Well, when is that? I don't know. I'll let you know. That's not going to go over well, so to say, like, hey, I'm not going to do it now. I'm going to do it in a time when it, when it's right. And this is what I have planned. And if you're willing to participate in this disclosure with me, then this is when we'll do it and this is when we'll do this is who we'll do it with. But to leave that open ended is just again, like your relationship is going to be starting out or continuing to just be built on this lack of trust and ambivalence and I mean, doesn't sound fun to me.

Good. So our next question comes to us from Conrad T. Conrad says, how much of an influence do demonic spirits and principalities have in the realm of pornography? Any control. I understand the addiction of pornography and how our brain, in a sense, is dependent on it as a way of medicating pain and much, much more. But if one is a follower of Jesus and struggles with porn addiction, is that opening the person to the demonic realm?

When I read this question which came to mind was the idea of leaving the devil afraid. Foothold that there's an area of your life that you are not addressing and not allowing. And if I'm over spiritualizing this, you guys tell me, the followers, listeners can't tell me. But if you're not allowing Jesus really to shine into those dark places, then I think you're opening yourself up for a foothold that then it becomes something that we see from a neurological standpoint. It's just a pattern that you, that you've created and then you just easily fall into every time, every time, every time. And so for me, I haven't done enough research to back all that up. Do I believe demonic spirits and principalities are around? Yes. Do I think that an unaddressed sexual addiction allows Satan to have a foothold?

100%, yeah. I mean, I think I kind of think of it like we either have at every moment we have the ability to participate in what God's doing or not. And so like, if you're looking at Pornography. That's not what God's doing. And so in that moment, you are interacting with what the enemy is doing. Yeah, like, and so. But it's not like, well, we can make a decision and then we're always going to be, you know, doing what God know. Like, that's this whole process of sanctification. And so I. I hear in the question, like, am I under control of the whatever. I think it's more like you're participating with. And I don't think it's like, if you look at pornography now, you're under control of the enemy. No. However, you're choosing to participate with what God's not doing. And as you're moving forward in your health, just to say, all right, is what I'm doing right now, is this me moving towards who God's created me to be, or is this moving away from that? And if you're moving away from that, then our only other option is that you're participating with what the enemy is doing.

Yeah. I think it can be difficult to separate out what is the work of the enemy or an evil spirit in my life. And what is my flesh and my fallen nature doing? What flesh and fallen nature does, that can be difficult to parse out which is which. And so I think, can it be something demonic or the enemy coming against you? Sure. Could it just be my own fallenness and sinfulness and brokenness coming out in my thinking or behaving? Yes. So we want to be careful not to blame things on an enemy or a spirit. Like, well, that was. This spirit made me do it. But at the same time, be aware there is a reality there. And I see it a lot in group members manifest in, like, their dreams. Particularly if someone's having a lot of dreams that seem very dark, very violent, very abusive. I think that's something we need to respond to, to say, this may be more than just the battle you're waging for freedom. There may be some kind of oppression here or demonic influence. And let's just together, let's stand and pray against that. Let's pray over you. And I always think of what author Greg Boyd says in this area of the spirit realm. He says it's. It's this idea of just shoot in all directions. Is, is this happening because of my bad choices? Well, let's deal with those choices. Is it happening because of the enemy or a demon? Let's pray against that. Is it happening because of something biological where I might need to take some kind of medication to help for a while? Deal with that. It's like, shoot in all directions because you don't have to figure out the one thing that's making me struggle. That's the other thing I'd say is I've really never seen that in a person's life. That it's this one thing. If you just deal with that one thing, you'll be free. Yeah. So that's another temptation to avoid, as a person might think, well, if I could just defeat the enemy and that. That demonic influence, I'll be free. It's like, well, there's probably more to it than that, but let's take seriously that that could be a part of.

Right.

Of what's causing us to struggle.

Yeah. I think this question and the question about being joined with a prostitute have a similar feel to me within some, I think, Christian settings where we may have the tendency to try to just pray against something and have it done with.

Yeah.

And so I don't think in either one of these, it's something that you can just, like, pray against. Like, okay, this is a demonic influence. I'm going to pray against that and we're good. Like, no, there's that and there's your brokenness.

Yeah.

Like, so is the question is how much influence do demonic spirits, principalities have in the realm of pornography? God's not doing that, so it must be totally.

Yeah. Right.

Yet at the same time in my life, I'm not just going to pray that this demonic influence is broken. I might pray that. And at the same time, I'm going to get into a group and get into counseling so that I can get health.

Right. Good.

Next question here from Bill H. Have you any godly advice for us regarding the use of various sexual aids, most of which are found on websites that look more like pornographic sites I've promised to abstain from.

What an interesting and great question. You know, I think in our world, it's just so common, whether it's toys or supplements or ways that we're going to enhance our experience. A couple of things that come to mind for me is asking what we've done on a lot of these questions. Looking at the purpose of it, the why. Why am I wanting this? Because I. I think sometimes we give an excuse of, oh, we need it, you know, for sexual intimacy in our marriage, when really, if you drill down a little further, it's more about curiosity. Well, it sounds like something that would be fun, or I heard about this and I want to try it out. Or it would make for, you know, something more Exciting? Well, is that really the way we want to try to add excitement to our marriage and to intimacy? That curiosity typically isn't going to be a good purpose. And the other thing I ask is, is it something that is likely to create reliance, that we're going to rely on that in order to have a sexual experience or to help our spouse have a positive experience? Because if we're relying on something outside of the marriage and one another that we could be providing or that could come through some hard work of communication and learning together what we like and don't like, well, you don't want to substitute something that you rely on rather than doing the hard work of building the relationship yourselves. And the other thing that I think of when I look at that question is if you wonder if it's needed, have you talked to your spouse about it and have they agreed that it's something that should be incorporated or used? And if so, it may be that they're the one that could go and purchase it. Because I think there are appropriate things that a married couple might use for foreplay to help them connect, but it really needs to be mutually agreed on and something that both feel is going to be beneficial to the intimacy you're building with each other. And in that case, typically they could probably be the one who gets it and help you avoid going to any kind of website or seeing advertisements that could be triggering.

When I first read this question, I. I went to, like, Viagra or Cialis, something like that, as a sexual aid. And I think that if that's the situation, then, like, go to a doctor, talk to somebody like that, that, you know, I think that that's totally fine. If I'm completely missing the question, I also have an answer for what you guys are headed toward. I think, and we've talked about this, I think even the three of us have had this conversation before that safety becomes something. If both spouses feel safe and appreciated and valued in that moment, then I'm a lot more likely to say to someone, okay, then that seems like it's something that's appropriate for the marriage bed. But if there's like even a fraction of being uncomfortable or feeling unsafe or devalued, then the answer should always be no.

Yeah, or like someone is saying yes for us because we're pushing for it.

Right. And so if it's something that you're pursuing together and you feel like it's adding value mutually to the same degree for both people, then have that conversation and move forward. However you guys deem you know, necessary for me. I would. I don't think I would ever. I would ever enter into this, mostly because it's tied so deeply to my previous addiction that it would be something that would really. It would wrap my mind around it, and I would be going back to old behaviors, old ways of thinking. And so for me, I personally would avoid it for that reason.

Yeah.

Yeah. A couple things with this. I mean, I don't. The question isn't like, where do I go to buy emotional intimacy aids? Like, okay, so if you're looking for sexual aids, but you're not also really actively pursuing emotional intimacy, then I see a little bit of a discrepancy there. The other question with, you know, sexual aids, and I like what you were saying, Nick, that if. If our ability to connect physically is reliant upon whether or not we have batteries, for instance, then there's some. There seems to be something off there. Like, we. You know, we. It's like, okay, well, if we need that to be able to connect, to feel like we're connecting physically and emotional through sex, then that seems like a little, at the very least, inconvenient, but also just seems like we're kind of missing the point a little bit. And then the other thing was that if I have to go to websites or stores or something that look like pornographic sites, then you shouldn't be going there.

Yeah.

Like, if what you need is lubricant, go to your Walgreens.

Like.

Like, you know what I mean?

Other places.

Yeah, you don't need to do that. And if it's already something that. That seems, I don't know, icky or questionable, then it probably is. Right?

So.

Yeah, but thanks for the question.

Yeah.

So I think what we're saying on that question, Bob, is when in doubt, leave it out.

When in doubt, leave it out.

Memorable.

Perfect.

Yeah.

There you go.

Obviously, listener, you can tell that we enjoy these episodes because we get to really engage different conversations, different topics. And we really appreciate all of you who send in questions and would just continue to encourage both men and women regardless. Regardless of where you're at. Betrayal, addiction, struggling parenting, whatever it is. To send those in for future FAQ episodes, there's a couple ways you can do that. You can email your questions to infouredesire.org just using the subject line PD podcast, or you can post your question, if you're a brave person, on social media with the hashtag pdfaq. So, guys, thanks for diving into these questions.

Appreciate it.

Yep.

Yeah, glad to be here. Thank you.

For listening to the Pure Desire Podcast. If you like what you're hearing and want to keep up with the podcast, please subscribe, download and share. You can also rate and review our podcast. The more reviews we get, the easier it is for others to find the podcast. If you'd like to support the message of hope and healing in developing sexual integrity, go to PureDesire.org give and for more information about the ministry, check out our website, PureDesire.org and you can also follow us on social media. Urdesign pdmi once again, that's @ PureDesire pdmi. We'll see you next time.