122 - Promoting Groups

Foreign.

You're listening to the Pure Desire podcast. Your safe place to find hope, healing and freedom from sexual addiction, betrayal and relationship issues. The opposite of addiction is not sobriety, it's connection. Battling sexual brokenness and the effects it brings is not something that can be done alone. Pure Desire groups exist to be your safe place to find freedom, recovery and healing from sexual brokenness, betrayal and relationship issues. Whether you or someone you love is struggling or you've experienced betrayal, there is a group for you. PureDesire is here to give you the roadmap to healing. To find a group online or in your area, visit PureDesire.org groups what is up, people? I'm your host, Trevor Windsor, and you are listening to episode 122 of the Pure Desire podcast. Here with me is my co host, as always, Nick Stumbo.

Yoo hoo Family Big summer blowout.

Okay, sounds super familiar.

Help me from Frozen at the Oaken Trading Post. Which the character. Do you know the character's name? No, his name is actually Oki at the Oaken Trading Post. So I thought it'd be a good intro because he seems like a very friendly, inviting kind of chap. And that's what today's episode is all about, you know, engaging people into groups.

Totally. We sat down with Dan and Jen Howey. Dan is now our new online groups administrator and Jen is volunteering with us, spending a lot of time around the office. We love her. They have had experience in leading groups. They've both been regional group advisors. And we sat down with them really to talk about what it looks like to promote Pure Desire groups in your church.

Yeah.

Really trying to wrestle with this issue of how do you get people to join a group that maybe they're not sure what it is or they're uncomfortable. And so the whole point here being there's not a whole lot of value in having groups if you don't have a way to successfully get people to engage and join the group. And so we just tried to process a lot of ways to with the hurdles that people face, church culture issues, even how you approach discipleship. So I think there's a lot in here, whether you're someone trying to understand groups and are thinking about joining one, or you're more on the other side where you're now looking. How do I pay it forward? How do I help other people experience what I'm experiencing and to just talk about and promote groups in a way that others will want to join you.

Yep.

And they, Dan and Jen are awesome. We love our time with us. So we hope you enjoy the episode. Dan and Jen, it's you guys first time on the podcast. We're super excited to have you. Thanks for being here.

Thank you.

We just for you listener out there, we are gonna have them on a future episode. So I know you're like, who are these new people? They're so pretty. We don't know what to do. It's gonna be okay. It's gonna be okay. I was specifically talking about you, Dan. Of course we are gonna have them on a future episode, Stories of Healing. You'll get to hear more about them and their story because I know you guys have great story. So we have you on though. You guys have had some experience being regional group advisors. For what regions have you guys been involved with?

We have been involved in the Oregon region, specifically central Oregon, but we've overseen some of the group leaders in the Oregon and Washington area.

Great.

And now online.

Yeah, yeah. So you guys have had experience in what we're going to be talking about today, this idea of promoting peer desire groups in your church. So let's just get into it. You guys ready?

Absolutely.

Cool. So the first question we have is when it comes to promoting groups on sexual integrity or healing from betrayal, a lot of churches assume maybe like an AA group or something that it needs to be this, like, closet in a dark corner, like it's downstairs in the basement of a church. So do we agree that that's how it should be, or should these be more public groups in a church?

Well, just the way you phrase that question leads me to a pretty obvious answer that absolutely not. These need to be a public and very visible ministry. One of the things that we fought against in so many places and so many churches is the idea of we want to support it, we want it to be available, but we don't really want to put it out there. It may raise too many questions. We may have blowback, things like that. So we've always gone in with the idea that, hey, we want to make this as public as possible, make it normal. It's just another way to heal your church and heal your congregation.

And I think their intent on kind of pushing it into the back corner really, is to protect the individuals that are involved. And I think sometimes that there's a miscommunication that, yes, the individuals involved are not public, but the ministry itself absolutely should be.

Well, and I think you want to recognize in this area that people coming to your church for help are often in a lot of pain when it comes to their Sexual issues. They're trying to figure out, is this a safe place that can help me? And if they're checking out your website, they're looking at your worship folder or your bulletin and they don't see anything about it. Their conclusion can be, I don't think they deal with this here. And I've been amazed at churches I know that have groups and just checking out their website, it's like you have to be a private investigator to find out where they're at. It's like a sleuth mission. So I think you want to put it out there. What we've often said is the fact that you have groups should be very public now. The groups themselves, like who's in them, maybe even who's leading them. I know when I led, when they met was also confidential, just so that people didn't know, oh, Monday night's recovery group night, you know, and they'd drive by the church and be like, oh, I know that person's car and that person's, you know. So there are some confidentiality things you want to think about, but you really want to celebrate. We can help in this area. And the last thing I would just say about it, that the person who needs help is often not. They're not super connected to your church. And this is part of why they're not very connected, because they feel issues that are alienating them, that isolate them, and they won't be in the know for a lot of what your church does. So it might be a spouse of someone who the spouse comes regularly, but they hardly ever do. And for them to really hear about the groups, you need to put them forward, you need to make it visible so that that person who's maybe more on the fringe hears and goes, wow, there's actually something there for me, and.

I think too the topic I was thinking about this earlier this morning, that secretive does not equal inviting. It very rarely does. This isn't like the Freemasons, where it's a secret society that I'm super excited to try to be a part of, which I'm not. Don't worry. I just watched N Treasure recently. But I think that it's important you understand because of how shameful the topic is. If it's secretive, that will equal shameful for people that, of course you're not going to talk about it because these people feel shame and carry it when it comes to this area of their life, when in reality it should be more public because then it's communicating. It's okay to have issues in this problem, or it's okay to have problems in this area, and it's also okay to address them.

Yeah. Dan actually had a great analogy. He said, can you imagine if you had a food pantry for the hungry? But not telling them about it?

You had to dig for very pastoral.

That's good.

Do you want another one?

Sure, let's hear it, please.

That's good. No, yeah, I do have another one, but I'm not going to.

Okay, I'll throw it out later for a later podcast.

I was gonna say, if it's like, Fight Club, you know, the first rule of Fight Club, talk about Fight Club, then you've got a problem, because people aren't gonna find out where they can go to get help.

Let's make sure listeners understand we're not promoting the movie Fight Club.

I've never actually seen the movie. That's like, the one quote I know from the whole movie.

So that's good. That's good.

Well, it's. Okay, let's move on from Fight Club.

Let's.

Okay.

All right.

So we want to talk about how to promote groups, because for a lot of leaders, churches, even someone just trying to get the word out, maybe they're not on staff, they're like, how do I promote this? So when promoting groups, especially when you're maybe just getting started, it can make sense to really promote the groups that are for the struggling spouse. And more often than not, that's the men. So we're gearing a group towards men and talking a whole lot about that, and that seems like the obvious natural thing to do. But why might that be a problem if the primary thing a group is doing is just talking about all this help they have for men and their sexual purity?

Well, first of all, it's not, you know, lust isn't just a man's issue. It's a woman's issue, too. And I think it was in. I looked up a statistic in psychology today saying 73% of women actually struggle with looking at pornography. So across the board, we have this assumption that women have this struggle. So we want to reach out to all groups. We want to reach out to any individual that's struggling, and we want to reach out to any individual that has experienced the effects of betrayal. So we often rarely even consider the impact that betrayal has on a man. And we need to shed light on the struggle in both arenas of sexual integrity for. For everyone. It's paramount that we have to actually have this conversation and bring to light what's available for Everybody, in the context.

Of the healing process, we see it's a big threat. A lot of times people are like, I just got to get right. You know? And that usually comes to light as a guy who's had some sort of disclosure, something's come out, like Jen said, that can be just as equally a woman. But then there's also. This is just a community issue, a family issue. This impacts so many aspects of it. So you do want to be able to support the person who's been betrayed, and you do want to be able to support the younger person who may not be able to or may not be a good fit for either Seven Pillars of Betrayal and Beyond Group. So there's just making it a part of life. Like, this is a problem that we see, and here's we have something to offer.

Yeah. I think inadvertently what ends up happening when we're just opening it to men is you're saying that this is only a man's problem, so you're inadvertently teaching a message that isn't true. And I don't think that we actively think that. That really the heart is, I just want to help men get freedom from this. And that's why I'm promoting it or talking about it. But then when that female who's struggling hears it, that's like, oh, okay. So I really do should feel this double amount of shame that I'm struggling and that I'm struggling with only a man's problem. So I think the messaging, too, has to be really considered when promoting groups.

Yeah.

Well, that doesn't mean when you go to start groups, you've got to have four different varieties ready, that you've got men who struggle, men who've been betrayed, women who struggle, women who've been betrayed. Because that can feel overwhelming. But in the way you talk about it, to even make clear that we want to have a plan. And so I've heard churches that maybe they're ready to start a men's group. As they're announcing it, they'll say, and we would like to have groups for women as well. And maybe at that point, they don't have some leaders ready. And part of the announcement is, if you're a woman that is interested in helping in this area or has a passion for this ministry or would like to be trained, please approach us or the staff, whoever the right person is, and let's talk about it. Because even if you're not ready, you can use the starting of one group as the springboard for the other. So don't get intimidated and think you've got to have everything ready all at once. But just be thinking about, how do we help everyone? And that will, even in your messaging, make sure that people feel included.

Well, and the good part is you do now have the opportunity to provide something for everyone with online groups, because you do have. If you're not. If you're not ready to start an unraveled group, which would be the same idea as the seven Pillars for men. We have online groups for that with excellent, excellent leaders. So you can fully offer everything at your church.

So, Jen, you started talking a little bit about betrayed spouses. And I think that we see the value, naturally, of someone who needs a group that's struggling with sexual integrity, whether it's porn or sex addiction or just really feeling like they don't have healing or they need some healing in that area. But it's really difficult for, especially on the front end of a recovery story and of healing, for a betrayed spouse to be like, oh, I need group. So basically, like, how do we promote betrayal groups? Which sounds. I guess that sounds terrible. How do we promote healing groups for spouses that are betrayed? It's okay. I'm not a professional. So how do we promote betrayal groups? Well, and in a way that communicates value and invitation for spouses that are feeling that betrayal.

You know, for each woman that comes into group, their motivation to attending group can be vastly different. I know that for me, I was very, very hungry to understand why my awesome husband was doing some really not so awesome things. And other women come into group because they're angry, and they need a place to process that anger. Some women come into group broken and isolated and alone, and they just need a place where they can connect. So that question is actually slightly complicated because you are not just promoting groups to one specific type of individual. You're promoting groups to people with multiple wounds. And there's a lot of unpacking that needs to be done. But I think really the benefit for a woman to attend a group, first of all, is to be around other people who get it. How many times have you. How easy is it just to be around other people who just get it? So that when you walk in a room, there's no background story that needs to be explained because the people in the room just get it.

There's an expectation. You walk in with this kind of story.

Yes, yes. And suddenly my really big, overwhelming story isn't as big and overwhelming because that load is being carried by every single person in the room. And then all Of a sudden you're relating to people, you're connecting with people. Isolation is removed. That alone is incredibly healing. And so I think a lot of times women don't want to be in group because it's. They don't have a problem. It's their husband that has a problem and their husband does have a problem. And so that's another great reason to be in group, because their husband has a problem. We need to discuss how that affects our lives, how that affects the lives of our children, and what happens next in my marriage. So no matter the reason to not attend group, that's the very reason to attend group because there's just a lot to process in the, in the whole betrayal process. And so I often encourage women to at least do a one on one with someone, hear their story and then consider coming into group.

Yeah. Like, as I'm so. I have never been a betrayed spouse. That's not my experience. But what I know about myself is that that idea of pressing into painful things in my life is the least inviting thing. Like, I don't want to do that. I don't want to press into that. And so I think that in some ways not pursuing groups like this can also. And this is, again, I'm making the disclaimer. This is not everybody. But I know that in my experience I can make excuses or present these reasons why not to get into my own healing because it's going to be really painful. And I think that anybody who's been in a pure desire group and has gone through that experience and had that healing, they know like, they know that I really had to power through the pain and difficulty in my life and I found freedom on the other end. But I think that that's a hurdle that in a lot of ways we end up putting in front of ourselves to actually experiencing freedom that we then have to hurdle our own thing we put there in the first place. And so I would just encourage anybody who's listening that if this is your experience, if you do have betrayal in your story, to understand that pushing through the pain is really the first big hurdle. But once you're over that and understand what it means to move through that, that's where healing really takes place.

Yeah, it's super important. It's really helpful if you can both speak the same language. If your husband is joining a group.

Yeah.

Spouses. Yeah. You've got a guy who's learning about a faster scale and wants to talk about a wound. And if you're on the same page and can Connect over these sort of things and have an understanding as he's going through what he's talking about. It really helps communication. That growth together just takes off.

Yeah. And then for the spouse that doesn't. For the individual that doesn't have a spouse and group, I think the context of this. I didn't choose for this to be put into my lap, but I have a responsibility of what I do with it. And groups facilitate the processing of your response to the situations that have been placed.

Well. And some of it, I think, is a mindset about how we look at group that particularly when it comes to sexual integrity, we can think of. Well, groups are for people that have a problem, and it was my husband's problem or it was my wife's problem. Obviously they need a group. They have a problem. I don't have a problem. But I think the mindset shift is to say groups aren't for people who have a problem. Groups are for people that need community. Groups are for people that need a healthy place to process and understand life. And I think whether you're the one struggling or the spouse, there's a voice in your head that tells you there's something wrong with you, that the reason he's struggling or the reason she had the affair is because there's something deficient about you, which at the end of the day is an isolating voice. That's not something like you were saying, Trevor. It's not something we want to face or deal with. So it feels safer and easier just to kind of cocoon up and, well, they have the problem. Go get fixed. I don't have a problem. I don't need to be fixed. But the isolation, in a sense, is your problem and that you're being removed from people and feeling like you're alone. And so if we could develop a mindset that says group is for those who need community, that need relationships and openness and a place to be vulnerable and safe and tell your whole story. Well, then I think everyone says, well, boy, that'd be good for me whether I have a problem or not. I could use better relationships and a place to be open and vulnerable. That might change how we feel about the need for group. Okay, so speaking of how we think about the groups and how we refer to them, the language we use, the phraseology in promoting groups can be very, very. What kind of language, wording, phrases should we use when promoting a pure desire group for healing and recovery? And maybe what shouldn't we say?

What's helpful to avoid when I Was reading that question, the first thing that came to mind was all the things we shouldn't say. We have this. If you struggle with this problem with pornography. Well, we have something.

If you've viewed pornography in the last 24 hours, this group is viewed.

Yeah.

Right.

Please stand up, raise a hand.

We'll pray. Eyes will be closed, which I never.

Have wives over there.

Right.

You're going to have to use the side entrance from here on out. But, but I think as far as that goes, we, we really need to use. Make this a common. Make this inclusive. Normalize the conversation when we talk about groups from hopefully from the pulpit and hopefully from announcements and up front. Use things like we and I. Not if you have a problem. It's. We have a situation. This world is very deeply steeped in pornography. It's deep. Steeped in sexual. Yeah, it's everywhere. So let's just acknowledge it and say we all experience it, we all see it, we know it's a problem. We have this group, we have this community, as Nick would say.

And share stories.

Yeah, absolutely.

Share stories of success.

Right, Right.

Absolutely. Yeah. Statistics are revealing, but what really connects people to this is a story of success. Let's hear them.

And also promote groups with the same amount of passion that you would any other type of group. A women's Bible study, even children's ministry. This issue is really loud in society and the church needs to be just as loud in talking about it. So removing that stigma, removing that shame and just being, hey, let's have a real talk about it.

I was listening to. I think it was just like a panel discussion even just yesterday was watching it online and it was flat out, someone sent in a question and it's, you know, is masturbation right or wrong? And the pastor, who actually is an info. Influential pastor in the area, basically was like, well, when we're addressing that word and then points at the screen and then continues on and it's like, bro, you don't get what you just did. Like, and of course we don't even use the word. Nothing was like, I mean, they read it in the question, but then it's like, I don't want to say it again.

Right.

And like, is it kind of a dirty word in the church? Of course it is. Like we get that. But I think that even that sort of thing where if you're not even calling it what it is, like if you can't say penis or vagina, then what you're doing is creating this bubble of a culture that is like, we don't talk. Yeah, we don't talk about this here. And so I think, yes, 100%, please use we, us together, but at the same time actually use language that addresses it for what it is. Like, we see sex as something that God created and it's in scripture. And if you preach the Bible, then, bro, you gotta talk about it. Like, it's gotta be part of the everyday language.

Yeah, I think that is a mistake that can be made when you advertise, like, well, this is as a group for purity. I mean, that's a nice word. Or integrity, but what does that mean? But what can happen is the person who's maybe dealing with harder, harder stuff, they're looking at hardcore porn or they're having affairs. Like, oh, that's not for me. That's for normal men or normal women that just have a lust problem. I'm way beyond that. They don't know what to do with me. And so I think to open that door and say, whether your issue is your thought life, pornography, affairs, stuff online, like, whatever it is, it's in the same spectrum. And this group can help you. So it's helping people see that there's no, like, out of bounds thing. I feel like they can't help me with this. And the other thing I hear a lot. In fact, I just heard it not too recently at a church I was at. We use the word really. So if you really struggle in this area, or if your marriage is really not going well, or if you really need help, because what immediately happens, and this is one of the crazy things about our struggle with sexuality, is we simultaneously struggle with shame about what we're doing, but also rationalize and deny that we have a problem. So as soon as you hear someone say, well, if you really struggle, 99% of the people go, well, I don't really struggle. Because whatever it is we're dealing with, we think the person who really struggles is one step further. And what's crazy to me is I found that that can be at any level that the person who's really, really deep, they still think, well, at least I'm not doing X. And what you mean is for X, not me, so I don't really have a problem. And that's back to what you were saying, Dan, to just bring it up, like, if this is in your life at all, because, you know it's not healthy for you. You know, it's something you don't really want there. And maybe it's not even that. Maybe you don't even really have that big of a problem. Let's just make sure that this is a healthy part of our life. And I think it can help get through the denial and rationalization that we're all doing and not get caught in. Oh, that's not for me.

Right, Totally.

Yeah.

So promoting groups, and I think I'm going to try not to get on a pedestal a little bit or a platform with this one. But I think that far too often my experience in the church has been you hear a great message or you hear great testimony and, and basically the call to action or the driving force is just now go out and grow or go out and do something great and everyone like high fives each other and walks out of the sanctuary. And then really what we all think to ourselves is like, well, now what do I do? Like where, where am I going? What am I doing? Like, what are the steps? And so I think that especially when it comes to promoting groups with sexual integrity and recovery, it's even more important to have like a direct, very specified call to action. And so in you guys experience in the church as RGAs, what should that call to action look like for people?

First of all, it's really important that your church staff, the whole staff, understands what pure desire is. Sometimes we have run into the problem where the lead pastor will understand, supports it. You have the covering and someone comes into the church office, says, I kind of heard about this thing, saw it on your website, and they explain it in a way that is not accurate to what pure desire actually is.

Oh, I didn't know that we had those groups.

That happens too. So actually what Dan and I ended up doing, we. When we started groups, well, maybe not when we started. It was quite a bit later actually. But I would recommend the day I.

Stepped into the group.

No, but when you do start leading groups, we found it effective to be a part of the church staff meeting. We introduced ourselves, told a little bit about our background, shared some of the statistics, and then shared what pure desire was. And then shared what we want to have communicated. Gave just a couple of little samples of what we want communicated. When someone walks in the door so that everyone's on the same page. There was a lot of confusion to start with, but from the aspect of, okay, now the church knows everyone's on board, this is being communicated, what do you do now? Let's say they're in the middle of groups and someone's on a waiting list. What do you do then? Or what if someone just wants information and they're not quite sure yet. So something that Dan has done for years. Wednesday morning coffee, 6:30. Everyone knows that he's available to do that. So maybe someone's waiting to get into group or isn't quite ready. They can just be. They can come and be a part of a community of believers and people that are in process, people that aren't even in process and just get together and just be in community until they're ready to take that next step. So that's something we've done for.

That's super cool.

Seven years.

And then that was Wednesdays.

Yeah. My next question is like why haven't.

We been invited at 6:30?

I thought you were healed.

Yeah, well, I mean everyone's still in recovery.

That's true. Okay. And then the other thing that I would do because I'm not that person to get up at 6:30 in the morning and go to coffee, what I would do with a person that called me for the first time, I'd say I'm very sorry to hear about what you're experiencing. What are your thoughts on getting together for coffee around 3pm or 10? Yeah. But anyway, so what I. But I would meet with that individual one on one for their very first experience having this conversation. And I did that with every single person, first of all, so that they could have a face, they could hear a story, they could feel connected and then they could decide what their next steps were. So it was kind of the same idea and Dan did it in more of a group setting. I'm more of a one on one girl.

So. Yeah. I think the key is to be responsive.

Yeah. Have people available.

Have people available.

Something in place.

Yeah.

And make sure you have something ready for them, whether it's group or some sort of community.

Yeah.

And I think that's so key if you're a pastor or a leader that this isn't maybe your personal story but you have a passion for it. You want to help people. That if you can utilize someone in your church or community that has a story of healing and they don't have to be perfect but. But they're moving the right direction. Maybe they've been in group a while or they're one of your group leaders to connect people to them because that's going to be a lot more meaningful that they hear someone else's story and you can become the facilitator that they don't need an expert to explain the whole process and teach them the principles and they just need a phone number to say why don't you call Dan, he'd love to meet for coffee. He can talk more about our groups and what our church does and tell you his story. That, that, that's really an important relational step. And the thing I think about in this question, what you said in the question itself, Trevor, that there needs to be a clear next step. So one of the things we emphasized when we were running groups was if you're a man, who do you call? And if you're a woman, who do you call? Or having both of those is super important. And it needs to be men for men and women for women. Hopefully we don't need to say that, but probably is good that even if clear, that's good. Yeah. Even if women have to contact a male staff member, for some they'll be like, well, I'm not going to talk to him about it, so I guess I'll just wait. So I think that contact. But it's also important to emphasize. And this is the only person that will know you've contacted them. Because what we don't always remember in a church system is that people feel like if I make a contact, then where does my name go? Does it go on the church prayer chain? Will it be discussed at staff meeting? Will it show up in the bulletin next? I mean, and we might laugh like, oh, who would ever do that? But, but that's a fear people have. Like, what if the group roster gets printed up and put in the bulletin? I'm not joining that. So I think to encourage. Again, back to our first question. Like, the groups are public that we have them, but the information about who's in them is kept very, very confidential for the safety of the person that they don't want to do this. That first step feels huge. And if they know, oh, they see in the bulletin, all I need to do is email Mary and ask about groups. I can do that and she's the only one that'll know. Or if I'm a guy, I just call Bob, I text Bob and he's going to tell me more. That's a safe first step. And the other thing about it that I think sometimes people don't think through is you've got to give them a step they can do when their spouse isn't with them. Which maybe sounds like, well, what do you mean? But for a lot of couples, the spouses don't know the extent to what's going on. They maybe know a little bit or it came up five years ago, but they don't know. It's still a problem. And if they have to respond in a way right there with their spouse sitting next to them, they're not going to do it. It's like, I'm not ready to have that conversation. But if the next day, while I'm at work, I have a phone number and I can text Bob, well, now it's something I can do because I can do it in a confidential, safe time and way. So that clear next step and having it be a person. And that's the only person that will know. I think you need to emphasize that.

And I think too, that in that sometimes people can think that that approach, you're trying to be secretive or you're trying to keep things, like, almost like. Like you're creating potentially that shameful culture. And really you're not. It's just protection and confidentiality. Because that's such a huge piece on the front.

The person is already stuck in shame. So that you're just trying to realize.

Exactly.

They're going to need help to break out of that. We've got to make it easy and safe for them to take that first step. Six months down the road, they might stand in front of your whole church and tell their story, but at the front end, it's like, I don't even want my spouse to know. So they're stuck in that isolation. You've got to make it easy to take the first step out.

Yeah. And also, when you're going through the process, sometimes you'll run into somebody. Oh, how do you know? So and so. And your eyes get kind of big. You might hold your breath for just a moment. And it's through a Bible study. But the confidentiality piece is huge. From the very beginning, through the entire process, without direct permission from the individual attending group, that confidentiality level is maintained.

You know, and as a group leader in church, I would tell people that, I'd say, hey, if we bump into each other at church or around town, I will never bring up our group. Now, if you choose to, if you feel safe, great, we can talk. It's not taboo. But I want you to know that when you see me, you don't have to be like, oh, no, is he gonna mention our group? And so and so's here I brought my friend today. Like, I'll just be very casual about it. And that comfort zone of, oh, we can still be normal people outside the group is helpful.

Yeah, for sure.

So one of the things we see is that churches or communities that communicate recovery as being very integrated into their ministry, kind of a central part of how they do discipleship, that they tend to be more successful, they tend to have more groups that grow, more people that end up leading. So how can we communicate the necessity of these groups as a central piece to the church's local ministry? Especially if. If maybe we haven't had them at all, how do we incorporate them into the life of the church?

Yeah, I think we mentioned that a little bit earlier, talking about just normalizing this issue. It's not special and more severe than other things. The consequences can be really devastating. But the fact is, where there's people, there's problems. And one of the problems happens to be we cope in all sorts of different ways, whether it's shopping, eating, pornography, a litany of things, angry anger, things like that. So once we can say, hey, look, this is just a symptom of a greater problem, and, hey, this one, we've got some great stuff that we can help you deal with it. So really normalize it and talk about it again as a we and an us in an inclusive manner. And I think that really, really helps. And talk about it often when it comes up in a sermon at church, hopefully your pastor is willing to say something about it. We've got this.

The issue directly affects families, and if the enemy can take out our families, then that directly impacts society. So making the connection between the importance of the ministry itself and its effect in families and on the church and in society is an integral piece of the entire thing.

I've had really two things. One of them, I've been saying for a while now, is the idea that if the marriage covenant is the clearest picture or is the clearest imagery signifying Christ's relationship with the church, then what's the one thing that would get attacked more often than not? And it's marriage. And there are statistics out there that an unbelievable amount of divorces are caused with some sort of sexual issue as one of the main reasons why it takes place. And so of course, you would attack the one thing that the church doesn't like to talk about and people don't like to share about, whether it's divorce or anything in the sexual realm. And then just make sure everyone feels like they're the only one struggling with it. And then there you go, like you have created an epidemic in the church. No problem. And so I think that that is one why it has to be central. The language has to be common and often. And then even the second thing, just like we are literally born sexual beings, so people are not born alcoholics. Born cocaine addicts, but they are born sexual. And so something that is tied to you biologically from the day, like, literally from the day in your mother's womb that that part of your body was formed, you are a sexual being. Like, sorry, that's just the way it is. And I think that. But to not talk about it and not make it something that's central, when it's something that every single person, for all of history and humanity will always have tied to their body and their biology and their existence, then you have to make it central. It has to be something that's good.

And what you're talking about, Trevor, is holistic spirituality that we don't mature in Christ, only in our spirit. It'd be great if that's all we had to focus on, but we are relational, physical, mental, emotional, sexual. And. And you say, well, what part of that life does Christ want to redeem and help grow? Well, obviously the answer is all of it. That it's all connected, it's all integrated. And the challenge for so many people is no one has ever taught them how to integrate their sexuality into their spirituality. And so there's this component of their life that it's like, yeah, I don't really know what to do with this. I just focus on all the other stuff and hope this piece somehow magically catches up. And what we see happening in the church is it doesn't. If we don't help people mature in their sexuality towards Christ likeness, it can be the very thing that trips them up and derails them over and over and over. And so just normalizing it as this is just one of the ways we're maturing in Christ. And the more people hear that and they feel it's actually safe to do, it, really can transform people's journey.

Yeah, that's good.

So we've talked about this a little bit already, and then in a previous podcast, we even talked about some of this as well. But so many men and women are caught in addiction or betrayal, feel completely hopeless. So in. In promoting these groups, how do we instill hope? How do we inspire people that hope is actually real? It's possible. How do we do that?

Share your story. I mean, that's. To me, that that's the most powerful thing an individual can do. We can. We can write all types of all kinds of books, we can go to all kinds of events, but I think most of us are mostly deeply impacted by knowing an individual and hearing their story, hearing the struggle, hearing the growth through the struggle, hearing how they came out of it. I think by far the most effective way to do that is to pursue your healing and then share that experience with other people and walk alongside them in their own process.

Definitely.

Sharing your story, making sure it's not. Again, when we go back to the. Making sure it's a part of the church, it's just another aspect of life that we live with. But I can't tell you how many times Jen and I have shared our story with someone, and then all of a sudden, four days later, a guy will come back and say, you know, I appreciate hearing that. Here's what I'm struggling with. They would have never said anything like that.

Whether it's the same thing or not. Yeah, they still feel like you're a safe person. I can come tell you what I'm struggling with.

And I think living on a level of transparency. I think that that's probably what's. Besides divine intervention. That's probably what's changed our family dynamic with our children the most. Our children are adults, and the level of transparency that we have with them is probably uncomfortable for most people we know. We talk freely about porn, masturbation, infidelity.

And I'll tell you what, there's a real joy in watching your junior high son's friends come into a room where we're having a conversation about masturbation, and that's nothing that they've ever experienced. And their eyes get about as big as anything.

We did have one of those moments, and our other son said, oh, don't worry. We talk really openly in our string of our lives. So I think part of that is living in as transparently as you possibly can. And through that transparency, it opens the doors to bring others in and share that story of hope.

It's like pointing. I was gonna use an analogy. Maybe I'll use it. It's like pointing at the map and saying, look, you can get here versus actually having someone who's been there tell the story. This is what it was like when I got there. And it's that idea of, like, you can tell someone that that freedom and healing is possible, and that's great. You can give them the steps to do it. That's also great. But you have to show them someone who's done it before so that it's like, oh, that person's normal, just like me. Maybe has the same job or same family of origin or has been married this long or has this many kids. Even that person can find freedom. And so I think that, you know, it's a phrase I use often, and Nick makes fun of me sometimes for it. But that aspirational identity, like, what can these people aspire to give them that vision. And that vision comes in the form of someone who's experienced healing.

Absolutely. I think a lot of times the church loves a great story where you've been and where you are now. Very few people like to be a part of that story. We had our friends. We had two friends that ran toward our darkness rather than away from it, which I think is unfortunately pretty rare, especially in the church. And I think we want to be a church. We want to be a people. We want to be friends and family that run towards people's darkness instead of away from it.

And I think what we're trying to do is help give hope that real change is possible, because I think that's one of the greatest lies Christians believe along the lines of our sexuality, is that you're just always going to struggle. It's just the way it's going to be. Men will be men, or we say boys will be boys, which is ironic. And like, well, it's just. You just got to deal with it as best you can. It's like, no, there's transformation here. Your brain can change, your thoughts can change, your pattern can be different. It's not just. Just try to keep it under control. It's transformation. And I think many people, in their thinking have never really considered that, that I don't have to live this way. So I think when we tell our stories, when we talk about transformation, we give person hope that I could actually get there. That's not just a place I think about, like, I could get to that destination. And that's exciting.

And the other point that is really encouraging, or it was for me at least, was someone saying, yeah, this. You can get there. I can show you. And you have no idea what else it will heal. It's not simply just a behavior. Your whole life will transform because you're not just fixing some behavior that you want. You're changing the way you think, the beliefs that you have, and that, again, completely transformational.

So promoting groups we've established is super important, but not only is it important to promote them, but. But doing it the right way and the effective way and in the inclusive, inviting way is also essential for these types of groups. And really, I'm willing to say this, that it's essential for people to find healing. You can be the one who makes that a really easy door to walk through or a really difficult brick wall for them to run into. And so I think it's super important. You guys obviously with your experience, super helpful, awesome conversation. Thanks for being here.

Thank you.

Appreciate being here.

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