123 - Moral Failure of Public Figures

Foreign.

You're listening to the Pure Desire Podcast, your safe place to find hope, healing, and freedom from sexual addiction, betrayal, and relationship issues.

Hey there.

I'm your host, Trevor Windsor, and you are listening to episode 123 of the Pure Desire Podcast. Here with me, as always, is my co host, Nick Stumbo.

Nanu, nanu.

Is that despicable me?

Oh, you got to go a lot further back, my friend. That came one of from one of our faithful podcast listeners who asked if I'd used it. And it is the traditional greeting for Mork in the old sitcom Mork and Mindy.

That's Robin Williams.

That's Robin Williams. Do you know the female actress's name? No, I had no idea either. Her name was Pam Dawber, known for that sitcom and one other late 70s, early 80s.

Yeah, yeah.

All right.

Well, I mean, that's kind of a sad rest in peace, Robin Williams.

Yeah, but I thought it was a good intro because Mork in that sitcom is an alien that people aren't really sure how to react to or what to do about. And in today's podcast, we're talking about leaders who fall into immorality or sexual sin. And I think it's an area where it feels kind of foreign to a lot of us, and we don't really know what to do about it or how to handle it. And that's what a lot of the conversation was about today.

Yeah. Well, before we get to the conversation, and I know you guys are really going to appreciate the stuff that we're diving into, a couple quick things. If you're not subscribed to the podcast, you should be. Please check us out on all major platforms, give us a review, help other people find us, and it just. It helps. It means a lot to us. Also, follow us on social media. You can keep up with us on Facebook, Twitter, instagramureduredesirepdmi, And also, if you like watching videos and that's how you consume content, we have these full episodes up on YouTube as well. Just search Pure Desire Ministries. And lastly, Nick 2019 is rounding out, and we really just want to encourage people to explore the idea of giving freedom to other people if they've experienced it through Pure Desire, to really not only push it in their church and share their story, but also what might it look like to really give financially and partner with us. For that reason, we started a new giving campaign that we titled Free People. Free People.

Yeah. Kind of playing off the idea that the negative side of it hurt people. Hurt people. That when we haven't processed our wounds. Our brokenness gets passed on to others, but in a really awesome way. As God brings healing to us, as he brings freedom and hope, we get to be a messenger to others and to pay it forward. And so we know at the end of the year there are oftentimes we're looking around at the blessings, the ways we're grateful, you know, the gratitude of Thanksgiving and just saying, God, how can I pay forward the good you brought into my life? And we hope you'd consider pure desire as one of the ways that you could pay it forward. You could help others find hope, freedom and healing. And whether it's a one time year end gift or if you want to become a regular recurring giver, that's another exciting option because then it gives us the opportunity to stay in touch with you and give you updates on how it's going. And even at $10 a month, you know, you'd be making a difference in the lives of others. So we hope people will consider partnering with us and helping free people. Free people.

Yeah. And if that's something that you feel like God's calling you to do just to give, you can go to PureDesire.org FreePeople all right, so today we really talked about a pretty heavy topic and something that sadly we see happen really often, especially in the recent years when there is a moral failing of a public figure.

Yeah. And it's the kind of thing that around the office of Pure Desire, we'll find ourselves talking about a lot, having conversations, you know, just kind of scratching our heads, what can we do? What can we say? And we just felt like it was time to really weigh in on some of these topics and take some of those conversations and just put them on a podcast. Because I think they're the kind of things everyone would like to talk about a little more. And so hopefully we can be a healthy, redemptive part of this conversation today.

Yeah. And so this I feel like we did, we really talked about some culture stuff. We talked about how to help our reactions and really just started to explore it a lot more. So we hope you enjoy the episode. Okay, so we are talking about public figures who've had a sexual moral failure on today's episode. And before we jump in, just felt like we needed to say some things about it. We want to make sure that our listeners understand that we've got no judgment, no condemnation to anybody who's had this as a part of their story or their experience. We also want to be really considerate of the people who've been sexually abused, whether it's harassment, whether it's physical abuse, this is absolutely a serious issue that has serious ramifications. But really, today, we just want to speak about this topic in a way that addresses the problem of sexual sin in the church and really offer our thoughts, really in hope that anyone who's stuck in sexual sin knows that there's a way out and really knows how to respond to the falling of a public figure. Is there anything that, Nick, you want to add before we jump in?

Yeah, I think we're just trying to be responsive to the fact that this seems to be happening a lot. There's public stuff seemingly coming out every week, or if not a week, every month. And I think many of us are challenged by how do we respond, what do we do, what's going on? And so I think today's episode is just an attempt to create some healthy dialogue around that and hopefully give people some real takeaways, not only for how they respond when they are a part of hearing this kind of news, but also how are we a part of shaping and shifting some culture so that this isn't the norm now and forever. Right.

So recently, another big name in the Christian entertainment industry had news come out about sexual sin. John Christ, a Christian comedian who we love his stuff. He's hilarious, and I think he's been really, really good for the church in a lot of ways. He was recently accused of and admitted to inappropriate sexual behavior toward women, leveraging his celebrity for sexual favors. So, Nick, when we hear about really the next big name, because it always feels like it's just the next thing's going to happen who had a moral failing. Why are we still surprised when this stuff happen?

Yeah, it's so interesting to me that this involves a comedian and I mean, someone who I find hilarious because so much of comedy is being willing to joke or talk about things that others aren't talking about. And so kind of that nervous tension of someone making fun of and so much of what John Christ would do, you know, making fun of things Christians do created in us this humorous response. So obviously, sexual sin is not humorous, but that's the starting point for me is we don't have a culture in Christianity or the church that knows how to talk about sex. I mean, yes, we can talk about God's plan or explain what Scripture says, but to actually have in Christian environments places where we just talk about the realities and the messiness of navigating human sexuality and relationships, it doesn't happen. And so it's all completely under the radar until something like this comes out that we can't avoid. And then we're all like, oh, my gosh, what's going on? The other thing I would partner with that culture, that taboo culture, is how we inadvertently. With Christian leaders. And I think this is true, whether it's pastors, musicians, worship leaders, that there is an assumption that competency and character go together, that if you have the competency to be in that role, then your character has matured along with it. And I wish that were the case, but I think that's our mindset that we feel like, well, that person preaching, they're so mature. Well, maybe not. Maybe they're just a really good preacher, but if it came to their emotional, sexual, spiritual life, we'd see, wow, they're pretty immature still. So I think it's a danger we have in the church. And to me, the two go together because in a culture where you can't talk about these things, we're just going to continue to assume that our pastor, pastors, leaders, people that are on a stage, have character with them. And I think if we could in an appropriate, healthy way, disconnect those two to say, maybe you're a wonderful performer, maybe you're awesome at explaining the word of God, but how can we help give you permission to be a person whose character is still developing without the one having to disqualify you from the other? That just because your character is still forming doesn't mean you should never preach. Right. Because if that was the standard of who could preach, no one should ever be preaching because no one is so perfect in their character that they're now perfectly competent. So somehow we've got to create an environment where those two things can be addressed separately. And I think that's why we're so surprised, though, is that assumption of, well, if you've got competency, you've got character too.

Yeah. You're talking about culture. I think the church also likes to bury their head in the sand. When this stuff happens, where it happens, and we're like, oh, this is so offensive. And we get so irritated. And then we somehow. This is just kind of. What I see is that we take that offense that we've taken or how outraged we are as a sign of our sexual health, when in reality that means nothing. Like, you can be outraged by the things that are wrong in this world. Absolutely. But that doesn't mean that you don't have sin in your life that needs help. And so I feel like that's the. Especially in the social media realm. It's just like, let's just throw all of our stones and make sure everyone knows that that was wrong and then just go back and bury our head in the sand instead of doing something about it. And recently we posted, we basically shared Relevant magazine, we shared this on social media, and we got some responses from people that I think are really coming from a good where it's why are you trying to leverage what happened in order to drive business? Or why are we even talking about it? Why can't we just leave it alone? When I think talking about it is the best thing to do is to not. And listen. This episode is not a way to bash on somebody. That's not it. It's a way to point to a problem that consistently reveals itself in the world and in our culture. And I think that the reality is that we have to talk about it and we can no longer bury our heads in the sand. And so if you're at a church that doesn't have groups or doesn't have conversation, the question I would ask you is, are you perpetuating the problem we continue to see by not addressing it in your church? And I know that that's pointed language, but it comes to a point where if we're just pointing the finger and being outraged, that doesn't actually bring about any change.

Yeah. I think it is common, though, that when this kind of information comes out, there are strong negative reactions. We feel betrayed, there's anger. We want to just kind of write them off and feel like, well, everything they did was bogus, then it was worthless. They're a Charlotte, they're not even a Christian. We accuse them of. And sometimes I think that's because of a failure in our own emotional processing that we feel hurt, we feel let down because we want our Christian leaders and people in public places, we want them to be mature. We want to feel like, well, man, there's someone who really has life with God figured out. They've nailed it, because that feels good that there's hope for me, because look how well they've figured it out. And then when they are revealed to be just as morally corrupt as I can be, just as broken as I can be, then it can feel like I feel let down by them. So in some ways, we need to have a healthy processing when it comes to receiving this kind of news. And so let's talk about that a little bit. When we hear of a leader, whether it's someone we know or only know of when we hear of them falling into some sort of sexual sin or a moral failing, how should we respond? What are appropriate responses in this kind of situation?

Yeah, well, I think the opposite of burying our head definitely is the first one. I was on Twitter actually this morning posting some stuff for pure desire and just saw some. Something that there was a professor, an adjunct, I think an adjunct professor at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, that there's been some stuff come to light about sexual abuse when he was a youth pastor. And I saw Albert Mohler, who I believe is the president of that seminary, post an image of a letter and this is what he quoted. And this I think is the right response for organizations and for individuals. And I just loved this. And this is the quote. We would ask that if anyone has knowledge that should inform our hand handling of this matter, please contact us. And what I loved was that was taking a posture of humility that we don't necessarily know all the answers to help people in this arena. And so I think that that is really what I would start with is look basically find out how to get healthy in this area. And whether you haven't gotten healthy in this area or you have, basically you need to educate yourself to understand what's really going on, what's motivating the behavior, what actual freedom and recovery looks like. But I think a lot of, I mean, for me what comes to mind is more things not to do, I guess like don't freak out, don't re share, don't reshare in a way that you're putting someone down. It's okay to be disappointed, but I think that we need to use this as an opportunity to have conversations, maybe share your story and encourage people that real freedom is possible and not to wait until maybe you're at a successful point in your career to have one of these happen. And you don't want to use it as a scare tactic. But in all reality it can function that way to really bring like a sober mindedness about the area of sexuality and health in it.

What you just shared made me think of maybe a response we need to have before a situation like this occurs because we might be the victim of some abuse or we might be the friend of someone that has experienced the sexual sin of a leader. And I think there may be a response in people that says, well, I don't want to get them in trouble or it's probably just me, or maybe I misunderstood and we keep quiet about things that, that really could be helpful to have a person confront early. I mean I think about the seminary professor, like if in his youth pastoring days that student or students had had appropriate means to go to someone and say something happened that wasn't appropriate, I need help addressing it. And the church had walked alongside that. I mean, there were probably points and areas in which some things could have been redeemed much, much sooner and better. And I'm not trying to say that's. I don't know that story. So I don't know why maybe someone in a youth group didn't speak up sooner, maybe they felt, felt they simply couldn't. But in that mindset of, well, I don't want to hurt them, I don't want to damage their reputation, it's like actually you're perpetuating it and you're allowing it to get bigger and worse because that's the nature of this kind of sin. And that'd be my encouragement. If you have been hurt or abused or you've observed something about a leader that you know is not right, you need to speak up, you know, and we'd encourage Matthew 18 that if they're a safe person to go to, that's the starting point, to go to them and say, here's something I saw or something you said or did that is not appropriate of someone who's following Christ. Could I help you address it? Or at a minimum going to someone else if that person isn't safe. Because the sooner we invite people into these struggles, what I see in these situations, like a John Chris, no one wants to become a well known public figure and then be embarrassed in this way. Like that's no one's dream job, career plan, right? So there were points all along the way they wanted help, they wanted to know what to do about this. But without maybe the motive or someone stepping up and going, listen, what you're doing is wrong and you need to change. It just kept going because of that human nature that says, well, I'll fix it, it'll get better, it'll go away, and it doesn't. And so we need to be bold enough to step up and step into people's lives to say, let's work together and from a place of love and from a place of grace and acceptance. But in that truth, saying let's deal with this now and not allow it to be something down the road that's going to cause even more harm and pain.

I think too, as you're saying that, and there may be somebody listening that's thinking that the person who like, so in this, in this Situation, John Christ, that he's not responsible for his own behavior, that the culture, the church is what perpetuated or created it? Absolutely not. I think that it's really important to say that brokenness is brokenness and it manifests in everyone's life and they're responsible for their sin. Absolutely. We're talking about how do we change the culture and really set up a future where this happens less and less, where there more opportunities for people to press into their own healing. And so I just don't want anyone to feel if you have experienced sexual abuse or if you had had a similar situation like this, like even you're talking about, Nick, that it's not your responsibility for their health. Their health is their thing. But there are things that you can do that help create the culture that we really want, which is that this never happens again. So, Nick, for you, I mean, you think about how often this has happened with big name people and we're specifically even talking about in the church, is this something that happens more to public figures or is it something that that's just the public that we see that because they're in the limelight, that's why. Or does it happen all the time?

Yeah, you know, I certainly don't know stats or percentages. Do leaders fall into sexual sin more than the average person or just know about it more? But I would say anyone in any kind of public role is in danger in terms the divide that can occur in their life. And we don't even have to try to create this. It just naturally occurs that there's a public side of me that people know and see. And the more public I am, the bigger that percentage or that part of my life is. And then under the surface is that private me. And I write about this in my book Safe, if anyone wants to read more. A little quick plug there, because I'm just thinking of the graph as I'm explaining this, that there becomes this subtle divide. And I think subtle initially, that we don't really realize that I've created a Persona publicly that is good and spiritual and a leader and funny or whatever is kind of my thing that draws people to the audience. And yet the me that I know that's real isn't quite like that. And so over time, I think that gap gets bigger and bigger and we actually start to feel pressure to protect that private me because it would undermine or it would invalidate the public me that we've created. And so I think whether you're a pastor or worship leader, you have to recognize that danger, because it is a danger. That is when we get into a place where we're now protecting our public image and we do this kind of thing with Hollywood stars where it's easy to criticize that, oh man, they're one way in a movie, but then it turns out they're a drug addict and they're a horrible person. But the same kind of thing happens in the Christian world. It just happens, usually in a little more subtle way, that the pastor, who seems to be so godly and wonderful in his own spirit, might feel like he's just a charlatan and a jerk. And if he or she doesn't have safe places to go to. And I don't mean just to their co workers, I mean to real friends where they're 100% honest and true and able to work on their stuff. That public, private me divide is going to trip up everyone sooner or later. Now, it might not hit the news and cause the end of a career, but it will create problems that sooner or later we'll have to deal with. So I think that's the why is the nature of public ministry leads to that. And if we're not proactively addressing it, it's going to trip us up sooner later.

Yeah. So we're going to take a quick break from this conversation and let you know about a brand new resource that we have. We know that this world is a scary place for a parent. Can we agree on that?

Yes.

Okay. So we both know it. And of all the scary topics to talk about with our kids, sex seems to always be at the top of that list. So we're super excited for our newest book by Rodney and Tracy Wright. And it's simply just called how to talk with your kids about sex.

Yeah. And interesting in the title how important that little word with is.

Yeah.

That it's not about talking to them and having that one time birds and the bees talk, but really creating a new conversation, a new culture in our home where we're able to talk about sex and sexuality and be a part of helping our kids form in their thinking and not just think we can fix it all in one talk. So I'm super excited about the book. You know, in my role as director at Pure Desire, I was evaluating whether or not we were going to print it. And so I'm reading the manuscript and I knew the book was good. When I continued to find that I wasn't reading it as the director of Pure Desire, I was just reading it as a dad.

Right.

And I was taking notes and thinking about how to build into my kids. And when I was done reading, I thought, I am so glad to have this book as a dad. And I also thought, I really wish my parents had had this book. So if I could say anything to our listeners, it's the kind of book you want to have and that will really form your thoughts around how do you feel Parent your kids and help them in this area. Yeah.

So if you want to pre order the book and start the new conversation in your household, go to PureDesire.org kids.

So one of the things that came out in this John Crist situation was a lot of comments. I was seeing and hearing of people saying, oh, I thought he was a Christian. You know, I enjoyed him so much because I thought he was a believer. So let's talk about that a little bit. Does a moral failure mean that someone isn't truly a Christian? And maybe following on to that, does it mean that any of their ministry or any of their work was fake and something we shouldn't receive?

Okay, so two things come to mind. One of them is I read a book a few years ago now called Good Christian, Good Husbands or Good Christian, Good Husband. And it was the idea of looking at the lives of John Wesley, George Whitfield and Jonathan Edwards and all guys that had incredible ministries. And basically this book unpacked that Wesley, Wesley and Whitfield both had really unhealthy marriages and really unhealthy relationships with women and were workaholics and, like, it was like ministry above marriage. And for me, I just remember as soon as I finished the book, I'm like, gosh, everything Whitfield ever said, everything Wesley ever said is now just trash in my mind because they were terrible people. But the older I've gotten, and I think of, like, when I was a child, I thought like a child. And when I'm, you know, you become an adult, you put out childish ways. You know, I think of Jen Hatmaker, really popular and really influential female voice in the kingdom. And a lot of people when she came out and said that she believes that homosexuality is okay or that she was in support of it, I just remember people just like, lashing out and saying, she's not a Christian. This, this and that. And look, we all have those parts of our theology, our life, that if people knew about them, they'd be like, are you really a Christian? Like, for me, doubt is one of those things. And so, like, I think without going too far off, the reality is they still are A Christian if they believe that Jesus is who he says he is. Romans 10, 9. I could quote it right now. Like, I'm pretty sure John is a believer. I can't prove that, but I'm pretty sure based on the fruit of his life in all areas, in all arenas, would show that he's a believer. I think that we're really quick to throw stones when we see something made public that we don't like or don't agree with, when in reality, we all have those things in our life. And praise the Lord that our ministry is not dictated and contingent upon only my character and only my competency, that the Holy Spirit can use people however he wants to use them. Recently I've been saying this, that there are people who've gotten saved and entered the kingdom on the worst evangelism on the planet. Someone's like, yeah, Jesus did this cool thing one time, and you're a terrible person. Someone's like, I believe. And it's like, so basically, what I'm saying is that we're really, really good as believers of throwing judgment in the face of people that we don't agree with or do things that we don't agree. And I mean, when I see that, when I hear that, I praise the Lord that He's the one who really decides if I'm saved and if I am right in his eyes. And I think the answer clearly is no, it doesn't mean we're not a Christian. And no, it doesn't take away everything we've ever done in ministry.

Yeah. And it's really an unfortunate mindset of that kind of professional Christian that somehow they're perfect or they have it all together. Because the truth is that 100% of the ministry you've received in your life of people ministering to you have been broken, sinful people. I mean, other than words you maybe heard directly from the Holy Spirit, everything you've received has come from someone who has sin in their life, including the authors of Scripture. I know that almost probably sounds heretical, but you think about Paul as he's writing the New Testament, says, I'm the chief of sinners. He doesn't say I was past tense. He's saying, I am. And I've talked about this on the podcast before, that I don't think he's looking to a pattern of behavior in his life that's getting worse and worse. I think it's just that he was growing in holiness and closeness to God, and his flaws and weaknesses and selfishness and pride were Just more revealed than ever. And he could just feel that tension of, even though I'm a new creation in Christ and I'm sealed for eternity by the blood of the Lamb and the Holy Spirit's in me, there is still this old nature that is as wicked and vile as ever. And that old nature doesn't get better. The old nature, it just gets killed better and better by my new life in Christ that's taking over. And I think, think if we can be comfortable with that in our own lives, because that's the truth, is most of us are comfortable with it in our own life. We know there are parts of us that are worthy and redeemed and helpful, but there's also parts of us that are wicked and sinful and selfish. And I hope that when I talk with you or I do a podcast or do a Pure desire event, that people will receive what I'm saying, even out of the fact that I'm a broken, flawed human being. So that's just the reality of our world. And yes, when there are public things that get revealed about maybe a pattern that someone hasn't dealt with, that they. They need to be removed from a role or take a break to deal with that that's appropriate, but that doesn't invalidate everything they've ever done. Because if that was the case, then other than direct messages from the Holy Spirit, you should reject everything you've ever heard or been taught, because it all comes from sinful, broken people. I think in my own life, a major voice in my development as a pastor was Bill Hybels. Incredible leadership advice, structure of a church, how to pray, preach. And when some of his stuff came out recently, do I think it's appropriate that they needed to distance from him as a church and have him lean into that? Yeah, but does that mean all the books he wrote were trash? Well, no. I still learn from him. I'm still thankful and grateful for his leadership. And I pray that God does a good work in his heart and that his story has a redemption side to it, that he receives that work he needs to do. But I'm not gonna look back at years of learning from him and then say it was pointless. So I think that's what we want to guard against. Yeah. Do we feel hurt? Do we feel led on at times? Can we feel like, wow, why weren't they honest about that earlier? That's natural. But I think we've got to be careful not to use the old adage, throw the baby out with the bathwater and Just put people in these weird categories of either they're holy or they're not. Because if that's what we're going to do, then there is nobody in the holy category. There's Jesus and the spirit alone, and all the rest of us are in the or not category.

So I think. I know it's super sad when stuff like this happens in anyone's life. And I think that as a believer, it's easy to make this to. For this to feel even bigger when it's a public figure. You know, like right now, tons of people are watching Kanye west and just waiting for him to trip up so they can be like, see, he wasn't a Christian. Or you look at, like, Tim Tebow, who, for so many people is the face of Christian in athletics, and we're just so thankful that he's so holy. But if he were to trip up, we'd be like, no, you are our one shot to reach the world. And so I think there's some, like, disproportionate. You know, it's disproportionate. We're putting too much value there. But even in that sadness and even in the reality of being really disappointed when this happens, is there anything we can do to help stop this from continuing?

Yeah, I think part of it is guarding our words and our reactions that we might feel hurt to betray, but we still can respond in a loving way. We can still respond in a hopeful way that God works in their life. And I think on that personal level of asking the question, am I modeling a life of vulnerability and transparency, or in my own sphere of influence, am I buying into the public, private me divide? Because you don't have to be a public figure to buy into that. You could just be in a circle of moms. And when you're with those moms, you act like you're happy and your kids are great and life's good, but you go home and drink wine and cry because you feel like you're a total failure as a mom. Well, you're buying into that same mindset that says your acceptance and value to that group of moms comes because of your performance. So where do you start? You start by being vulnerable and going to people and learning to be real and erasing that little line that there's not public me, private me, there's just me. And that doesn't mean I tell everyone everything all the time, but that I discover it's safe to be real. And I think when we do that, then wherever God gives us Influence, we can communicate to people that are our leaders. So maybe our pastor or someone, someone we know or work alongside that's in a more public ministry. We can be someone that says to them, you don't need to be perfect to be my pastor. I don't expect you to have it all together. In fact, if there's any way I can ever be a part of God doing stuff in the messy part of your life, I'm here for you. And that won't change how I see you as my pastor or leader or whatever role that person has in our life. So it's likely that most people listening, they don't have an in with John Crist or some huge public names, but they probably know a pastor or they probably know an author or they probably know a worship leader that they could just reach out to them, even today with a note or an email or a phone call and say, you know, I love you. Not because of how you lead me. I love you for who you are. And I want you to know you don't need to be perfect to be a leader. And I think that could start to change the culture of churches around us.

The picture I get is this idea of vulnerability being a weapon for holistic healing in the church. Like, if you viewed your vulnerability and your willingness to share your story as a weapon against the darkness and brokenness in the world, I think we'd use it a lot more. And so I'm just even saying this and thinking, man, I need to do this more in my life as well. I think that's one way that we, because I agree with you 100%, we need to encourage the people around us. It's okay to not be okay. It's okay to share what's going on. That also has to be reciprocated if that's going to be the kind of person you want to be. And then understand that sharing your story, even if you don't know someone super well, can be that invitation that can swing that front door into healing wide open for them and say, hey, come on in. It's great in here. You're going to be loved and accepted in here. So I think that that'd be my encouragement is just use your story as an invitation to other people and use it as really a motivation as well to continue your own healing. Yeah.

1. It comes to mind as you say that there may be people listening to this podcast by God's prompting, or a friend passed it on, who do have a role in leading a district, a denomination, a way of leading pastors and the question of, do you have an avenue of hope and health and healing that leaders who are under your ministry or under your care know? I can ask for help. Help. I can be a real human being and not lose my job. Because that's the double bind. We've talked about a lot at Pure Desire that someone in ministry, they know they have problems, but they don't know if they can be honest about it because what they've been trained for and how they're getting their income, because let's be honest, at the end of the day, we want to pay for our mortgage and our kids to go to school and have clothes. And so we don't want to lose the job that we're trained to do by admitting we're still imperfect and have flaws. So we stay quiet. And so if you're listening to this and you have a role in, in that you really are the door that can either be shut and locked that says, nope, keep acting like you're okay because if you're not, you're out of here. Or the one that is wide open with light inside saying, if you need help, come in. Because we care about you as much as a person as we do as a pastor. And if you're unhealthy as a person, that's okay. We can help be a part of your journey because we want you to still be a pastor 10 years from now. And the other side of that I just throw out. There's an economic side of if we wait for another pastor to find fall, if we wait for another leader, the financial impact of that on organizations and churches is catastrophic. In terms of transitions that happen, people that leave the search to find a replacement, like if you could put dollars on that, I think every organization in the world would go, oh my goodness, it is worth doing whatever it takes to keep our leaders healthy than waiting for them to fall and have to deal with the fallout. So if you're a person driven just by the finances of it all, realize you can't over invest in the health of your leaders. And if there's any way at Pure Desire, we could help, that's why we're here.

Yeah, absolutely. That's good.

So we have had and heard in this era and the leaders that are falling, we've had a lot of men and women respond negatively and who don't want us to talk about it more because it feels like, well, now we're just heaping on the shame or we're throwing more shade to use my Teenage daughter's language. It's good.

You should use it. It works.

I try. So why are we talking about it today? Why do this podcast and not just kind of nod our heads and move on and address other topics?

So in our resources that we offer, our group, resources that help people process through their pain and their woundedness and find freedom sexually, we talk about the idea of a relapse or a fall being one of the most, potentially the most fruitful times in recovery because it helps you reevaluate. And it's really fresh. You can look at it and, you know, the language you've used before is the idea of you become like a detective, and you're trying to identify all the things that cater to this scene that has happened. And so I think that when stuff like this happens, we have to jump in and add truth and reality to freedom as possible. And we need to talk about it. We need to evaluate, are we putting these public figures on a pedestal and expecting them to be holier than we are because they have a platform and evaluate our culture and what are ways we can help, and what are ways that we can press in with our friends and really encourage them to pursue healing, whether it's in the area of sexuality or something else. I think it really gives us. It's just fresh. It's almost like the wound is really fresh. And so let's talk about not just a band aid so that we can cover it up, but what it looks like to avoid falling in the first place and really press into it. So it really is not. And you and I are both on the same page with this. It's not something that we're trying to get more views or listens. We're not trying to piggyback it for our benefit. We're trying to enter into the culture and the world that we're seeing. And this is happening a lot. We want to enter into it and really add a voice of there is hope. You can break free. There can be health in your life in this area and more examples of it. And I both. And we just want more and more people to know it's out there.

Yeah. I think the reason is that it's sobering. There is an appropriate, sobering reality that reminds us we are all susceptible to sin, temptation, addictive patterns. It always makes me think of James, chapter three, that says we all stumble in many ways. And I said stumble, not stumbo, but just. I've heard that one. But to point out how many of us? A few. Most men. All. And in Just one or two ways. No, in many ways. That. That's. That's human nature, as we've been talking about. And so when we hear this news come out, I think we need to look at it and say, well, what am I doing? Because maybe I'm not preaching from a stage, but I'm leading kids in my home, or I'm leading a small group, or I'm a part of. We're all in danger in a sense, so that if we don't process our stuff, have places we can be real, we could be the next name. And maybe ours never hits the news, but that it's damaging someone else because things came to light that others didn't know. And so I hope in that sobering reality, every one of us looks inside and says, how do I make sure that I'm dealing with my stuff proactively and in health and not waiting for it to cause some kind of crisis. So if you're listening and you're a group leader or you're just a spouse or you're a parent, I hope the motivation in all this is it reminds you why this matters, why being in a group matters, why doing the hard. I mean, being vulnerable is messy and hard, and at times it suc. And it's like I'm just going to act like I'm okay. And it's this kind of thing that reminds us, no, no, lean into it. And yeah, it's going to be hard or messy, but it's what we need to keep growing and to keep finding freedom and community and walking in that hope. And so I hope that's kind of the takeaway for a lot of people, is not to point a finger at someone else, but to look at the human nature behind all of this and point the finger inside and go, God, what do you need me to do so that I'm not Another story that people use to discredit faith and what's happening in the kingdom of God.

Yeah. So as we finish today, we want to let you know that we love and have nothing genuinely but compassion for men and women who've experienced a moral failure. And really, we all experience moral failing. We do. Whether it's in this area or another. No one is perfect, and everyone needs more health in their life. And look, we know what it's been like. We know what it's like to be where he is. We've struggled in this area before and have found freedom, but we also know that healing is possible. We've experienced that. So we hope that you or anyone really just know and understand that pure desire is here to help create a roadmap for your healing. We don't do it for you, but we put a map in front of you that if you walk, will bring freedom in your life. And so if you know someone or you personally are looking for help, go to our website, go to PureDesire.org and start your healing journey. And also, guys, if you haven't subscribed to the podcast, we just ask that you do. You keep up with us, continue the conversation, write a review, help others find it, and never stop being healthy.