124 - How To Talk With Your Kids About Sex

You're listening to the Pure Desire podcast, your safe place to find hope, healing and freedom from sexual addiction, betrayal and relationship issues. Hey, hey, hey. I'm your host, Trevor Windsor, and you are listening to episode 124 of the Pure Desire podcast. Here with me as always, my co host, Nick Stumbo.

Staying alive. Staying alive. I ah, ah, ah. Staying alive.

Different key. I think a little bit like you did. Definitely didn't make the jump there to the falsetto.

Well, that's asking a lot, Trevor.

I mean the Bee Gees, have you seen the mashup of that? I can't. I think they did, I think it was Beat It. They did beat it with Michael Jackson and did a mashup with that song and music video. That's incredible. You should check it out.

I, you know, I will consider that, but I, I, I brought up that topic because I know what we're going to covering the podcast about parents. For a lot of us, we just want to get through our teenage years with our kids and have them be alive and us be alive. We're like in survival mode. So staying alive. And today's podcast is hopefully to take them to another level of parenting.

Yes. So a couple quick things before we get to that. If you're not subscribed to the podcast, please do check us out on all the major platforms and look give us a review. It helps other people find the podcast and really hopefully end enter into their own journey of healing. Also follow us on social media, you can check us out on Facebook, on Twitter, on Instagram, you just searchuredesirepdmi. And if you like to consume content through video platform. Also we have the full episodes on YouTube if you just search Pure Desire Ministries. And then lastly, Nick, we just see toward the end of the year, we really just wanna push people to consider what would it look like for me to give healing and freedom to other people? And really for that reason, we've created a financial giving campaign called Free People.

Free People, Yeah. Kind of playing off the idea that hurt people hurt people. That in our woundedness and brokenness, especially when we haven't processed those things, we have a way of perpetuating those cycles of brokenness. But when God brings freedom and he brings hope and healing, a big part of that healing journey is to pay it forward. And so we hope people pay it forward in their families. We hope they pay it forward to their local church. And as God leads them, we hope they'll pay it forward with us, that they'll be a part of this mission. To bring hope and healing to so many more people. And we can't do what we do without support of people that are a part of that. And so whether it's a a year end gift because they're just looking at gratitude, God, thanks for what you've given me. Now I'm going to pay it forward to others, or they want to become a recurring giver and stay connected in that way. Those financial gifts make a huge difference to pure desire and those that we're able to impact. So we hope that people consider that being one of the ways at the end of the year here that they pay their healing forward to others.

Yeah, absolutely. So go to PureDesire.org free people if you are interested. All right, so staying alive, that theme. We sat down with Rodney and Tracy Wright, who are very alive and very energetic and we love them. And we talked about drumroll. Their new book called how to talk with your kids about sex.

Yeah. Super excited to have this resource coming out. And I love when Rodney jokes that in high school he was required to take English as a second language and now he's an author. But I think that speaks to what this book is all about, that they're not professors, they're not quote unquote experts. They're just parents that made a lot of mistakes. But God has brought a lot of hope and healing into both their family journey and their personal journey. And the way they bring that into their story really is awesome. So I, you know, I've read the book. I think it's unique to anything I've come across. And I think our conversation today will reveal why it really is a unique approach to how to create this conversation in your home.

And they really do take a really scary topic for a lot of parents and make it really easy to understand and palatable and honestly enjoyable.

Well, and I think if you're not a parent, don't check out because what Rodney and Trace Tracy will share has application. Whether you're single, divorced, a grandparent, a lot of it is just about what do healthy human relationships look like? So lean in even if you don't have kids in the home right now.

Yep.

So you will enjoy this. So here is the episode. Rodney and Tracy Wright, you guys are here. We're super excited to have you, Rodney, we've had you. You're a speaker, you've been at events, you've been on the podcast before. Tracy, you're on staff now and we're excited to have you. This is your first time on the podcast.

Welcome.

Thank You. Thanks for having me.

Tracy's the best part of us, for sure. So you'll want her more. For sure.

We agree.

Yeah, we agree.

Definitely, definitely. So we love you guys and that's why we have you on the podcast. But there's a special reason why. And if you're not viewing this on YouTube or online, then you're not going to necessarily see it. But I am holding in my hand the new book that you guys have written, how to talk with your kids about sex. So that is the title of this episode. So we're going to talk through the book, talk through you guys story a little bit and, and really just convince people that they need this book in their lives. Because let's be honest, everybody needs to know how to better talk to their kids when it comes to the topics.

Tools can help us, right?

Absolutely.

Tabs can help us.

So let's just do this.

Why?

Let's just start right off the bat. Why is it so difficult for parents specifically to talk to their kids about sex?

I think, Trevor, one of the reasons why it's so difficult is because not a lot of us got excellent training or modeling from the generation ahead of us. You only know what you know. So think about your parents, your grandparents, your great grandparents especially, maybe if they were in some kind of a religious organization, even more so. It was difficult to talk about, you know, sex is good, sex is from God. We want to manage this gift in a healthy way. And the language around that, it wasn't always safe or welcomed or none of that was really modeled well. So I think why it's so difficult is because in our culture, maybe in our faith community or at our home we grew up in, there was just so much silence about the subject matter. And the conversation was really maybe something that was, you know, given when you were 12 and you just had to sit down and endure that 30 minute conversation thinking, dad, are you okay? Dad, are you okay?

Yeah.

No, I just have to get through this, son. You know, rather than just those short conversations that happened all through your life about something real natural.

Right.

You know, so I think that's, I think that's why it's difficult for most of us. We just didn't see a lot of that modeled. It wasn't the culture that you're around.

And we don't really have very many settings where we actually talk about our sexuality in a healthy environment. So if you think about it, even sometimes as couples, we aren't good about talking about it. So if we're not talking about Our faith communities, we're not even familiar with the conversation or being able to have those. And then we try to have that conversation at the awkwardness, puberty age of our kids.

Well, it seems like there's a real challenge when we divide things. And I think this happens particularly in Christian homes and circles where there's things that are like, of the world and then things that are faith based or of the church. And for a lot of decades it was sex, drugs and rock and roll, that that's of the world and we just stay away from that. That's how we stay holy. But what we miss in that is that there's a whole bunch of sex and sexuality that is very divine and of God and a part of our spirituality that we kind of threw the baby out with the bath in homes. I think parents might feel like, well, if I'm talking about sex, I'm leading my kids astray. It's like, no, you're guiding them towards godliness here.

Right?

For sure.

Yeah, for sure. I couldn't affirm that even more. In fact, we talk about that piece in the book, just about healthy versus unhealthy language that we would use as well as manage and mismanage and our sexuality. Nick is an integral part of how God made us. And if you see it as we're made in God's image, male and female, our male and femaleness is good and you start that as a premise, then I think that's a lot better way for our kids to be informed. And it's what I love about being around pure desire. There's always healthy conversations around sexuality. So just, you know, if anything, watch these podcasts, get in a group and because I love. Because here is a great. Where we talk about our kids or something that you know, that we're learning or trying to help. And if you've been through group and you've done your own shame healing and you're healed, your woundedness and you're not afraid to talk about those things, then you want to learn, you know, and so that's the beauty of this book. Hopefully it can be. It can facilitate learning for all of us because, you know, it's the Christ in you that helps me learn something and in Nick, and it becomes that we can learn from one another on this subject matter.

Yeah, that's great.

So we know there is a lot of unhealthy sexuality in our world and we see it portrayed in media and a lot of movies and our kids are immersed in it and we're seeing Perhaps more than ever, a growing divide between the culture that kids are immersed in, having grown up with smartphones and the digital age, and what parents are aware of. I mean, I have a 15 year old daughter and she's mentioning bands or singers that I'm like, who? And she'll be like, oh, dad, how could you not know this person that everyone in my world is just obsessed with?

Which is why I hear the Jonas Brothers from your office now. Yeah, I'm just trying to.

And that's really the question I want to.

Instead of Phil Collins, right? Yeah, for sure.

I want to lead into how can parents better equip or educate themselves about the world and the culture their kids are growing up in? I mean, do they have to be immersed in youth culture or what does it look like for a parent to connect with kids in what they're experiencing? Because it is different than what most of us as parents grew up with.

Well, we know that. I mean, I think all of us are aware that we have an over sexualized culture. So one of the upsides to technology is we have more access to share resources, to have tools. So I think parents have maybe more than we had. Even our kids are grown.

And this podcast is a great example. Right. If you just listen to the podcast, you're going to learn so much about culture and kids and what's out there. So go ahead, Tracy.

Exactly. So we have more opportunities. And yet at the same time, on the flip side of that, our kids have earlier access to things that we would actually like to keep them from. So I think opening up the conversation is so important. Part of that is, and I think about being a parent and just parent to parent, what I wish somebody would have said to me or would say to me at this time if I was raising young kids. And that's just that the pornography industry is a multi billion dollar industry, very targeted and focused. They're big business like Walmart and Starbucks, and they're sitting around looking at ways to get our kids exposed to it earlier. So it's not only free, easily accessible, a click away for them, drawing them in, but they're looking at and targeting our kids for that.

Yeah, we're really facing now with the pornography industry what was happening with the smoking companies a couple of decades ago where they recognized if we hook someone young and early, we've got a customer for life and we're gonna make, you know, thousands of dollars off every customer and to recognize there's a pornography industry. Last number I'm hearing is 14 billion and that's the direct porn industry. Not all the stuff that spins out of it and stuff that just gets shared, but a $14 billion industry that's. @ the end of the day, they're not morally asking is it right or wrong? They're just asking, how do we make more money? And if we can trap kids, if we can trap people young and we've got them for life, that's something. And not to scare parents with, but to create an awareness of this is a very serious, real issue that I can't just hope my kids figure it out on their own, because that's really abandoning them, like throwing a sheep to the wolves and hoping that they survive.

Well, that's like one of the things that in another resource that we have, digital natives, we talk about the Internet and really understanding it.

Right?

And it's one of those things where, like, we've especially growing. For me, growing up, I was told to avoid sex, avoid pornography, all that stuff. And in reality, I didn't have people who are living in the world and in the culture enough and understood it enough to teach me what it looked like to be healthy, not just to avoid.

Right.

And so I think that's how. And as I'm thinking, because I've got a two and a half year old, I'm thinking about, look, I need to start equipping myself and educating myself on what the world's gonna be like. Not so that. Not so that. I just think that it's easy to be like, you know what, new generations. I'm just gonna avoid it. There's this whole like, well, this is just what the millennials do with social media. So I'm not gonna engage in it.

Kind of put your head in the sand and hope it goes away, right? It's not going away.

It's not. And the thing is, how can I help someone navigate the waters of life if I haven't been in it and swam around? That, for me, is what I love about this book and what I love about the approach that we're taking is you have to understand, you don't have to, like, you don't have to go watch pornography to understand it, or you.

Don'T have to be the most technical person in your fans, which I'm not. Right. But we know that technology is here, and so now we have to manage this. Just like we manage our sleep, our food intake, we manage our money, our time. This device is something else that we have to manage as well. And we have to kind of model that for our kids. And teach that. And then when they are exposed to something, mom and dad, we want them to be the safest people in the room. That I would go to my dad and say, hey, dad, look, I saw this on my phone. Remember, it's that porn that we talked about. And you told me it damages my brain on the inside. And I wanted to let you know because the kid would feel safe, the daughter, the son would feel safe. Instead of, I'm not going to let my parent know that I looked at this totally. And so, you know, in the book, we really try to. How to. We talk about how to have a healthy environment in your home. It's not just so much here's what to say and not to say. It's really about the culture that you're creating in the home where the kid feels like, my dad's growing, my mom's growing. They're learning about technology. They're aware of what's out there. And they're also some of the safest people in the world because they have nothing but my best interest. And to me, that's so important. I didn't even perceive God had my best interest. I thought God was going to catch me when I was a kid looking at porn. And God was so mad at me and disgusted. Rather than God saying, rodney, there's a better way, I want to show you this better way, but I won't force your will, but I want you to know that I'm safe. This is why I'm just a real proponent for healing groups and for being healthy individuals. I could talk for the next 35 hours.

Totally.

I'm going to officially land that thought right here. This is self discipline.

Well, here's like, here's. This is, I guess maybe a summary statement. The way that I think about it, that the church historically has been very anti culture. And a lot of that is just to protect ourselves and maintain holiness and.

Pursuit of others versus them. Right, Right.

And in reality, if you look at what Jesus did, Jesus entered into culture and spoke to culture, which means he had to know culture. And so I. That like a big thing is like, is the church culturally relevant today? And the answer for a lot of churches is no, because they're not engaging it, they're trying to avoid it. So I think the same thing is true in the culture of the house. If you want to create a healthy culture, you have to engage the culture your kids are living in.

Right? Right.

We would agree. I think the parent should be the primary educator of your kids. But not every parent is going to be healthy. And so I really just see the value of linking arms with the schools, with the medical community. I think a lot of people are seeing that this is a public health crisis. Right. Like smoking used to be. So they see that. So I think people are wanting to move towards giving our kids good and healthy information. So if we link arms, we have the opportunity first of all to share what we want our kids to know. Right. Share what, what our belief system is, but then to also look at what, what are the schools teaching and connecting with that.

So let's talk about that. So how do we feel? Because a lot of parents, and I was blessed to not necessarily have this as my reality, but a lot of parents are trusting the systems or the schools they go to to educate them on sex, on what it looks like as far as, like biologically what happens, but then also protection and understanding the role of it in life. How do we feel about allowing the.

Schools to educate our kids and sexual values? Right. Not just, not just biology, but values even. Right.

First, I think only about half the states have mandated sex education and then, and that's really inconsistent in what they're actually teaching. So most states, I think have an opt out system for parents. But when you look at that, and the reason why the United States has it set up that way is because we can't all agree some parents want it to be taught as abstinence and other parents have another agenda that they want taught. So I just think the most important thing is that we're figuring out what our school district is teaching and then we're having conversation with our kids. So even if they are sharing values that are different, I assure you that they're learning from their peers. Values that are different also, 100%. And so just by assimilation, it's not.

Like I hear my perspectives on sex. It's just in conversation. And the way people talk about it, it just comes out.

Yeah, I think one of the things the schools are trying to do right. Is education system is start educating our kids at younger ages. I think that's really positive.

Absolutely.

I don't think that's negative. I think that the church should say my goodness, thank you and we're going to join that conversation at an early age. And so I think that's one of the things that is helpful for us. Well, I don't want somebody else telling my kids about this. Well, who's going to tell them and how can we equip you so you can start that conversation when they're learning about their elbows and their ears and their noses. They also learn about their penis and vagina, male or female, and they see all that in a healthy context that's really normal and normative. And family's a place where you talk about this and then it's these ongoing conversations that happen as they grow and develop in that regard.

And preparing them really, like you said, Rodney, is about giving them that context. I liken this conversation or this question to what I'm seeing in our home with the evolution versus creation that we grew up with. Our kids going to church with us and reading the Bible together and understanding God as the creator of the world. And so when they get into grade school even and in science, they start to talk about evolution, they come home with questions. And we have great conversations about why would someone believe that and what are the problems with that view and why do we believe that that's not how the world began and we see a creator. So I've had with especially my older girls, really good conversations where I can see they understand a foundation that they're trying to fit. Where does evolution fit? And when they can ask those questions in freedom, they are arriving at their own conclusions. Like, yeah, that doesn't make sense. And they see God's goodness and his design. I think we want to do same thing with sex, that our kids are going to hear about it at school. There might be sex ed. But if they have a foundation of God's design and God's goodness and God's plan, then when they hear other things, they can come home and say, wait a minute, how does this fit? And they need that process of going through to come to the truth so that we don't just expect. Well, I hope they'll figure it out on their own. We give them the foundation.

And you're wise enough to just say you have a brain. And I believe the way of God is a better way. And so I'm going to encourage you to think through this process, Nick. So you come to that understanding of that this is the better way, rather than you just better believe this.

Because we're Christians, we're promoting self discovery.

Yes.

Which is what our group. Everything is founded on self discovery.

And turn your brain on and engage in this process. And it's okay to ask questions or even maybe question about what you believe about this. Is it the better way? Why or why not?

And I would say self discovery with a foundation. Totally. Because there is a view out there of self discovery that's like, hey, whatever, you.

Yeah, sure.

And we're not saying that, but we're saying understand truth because you've wrestled with it and see God's goodness.

And that's how they own it, by wrestling with us.

Absolutely.

So even if we're guiding them along, they're owning it by looking at it themselves.

So take us into the book a little bit as you help parents in this process of having the conversations. What are some of the unexpected tips or advice that you're giving to parents about how to talk with their kids about sexual.

Well, unexpected, I think for me would be just this foundational thought and piece for me. And I really think it comes out in all kinds of different chapters within the book is that we're made in God's image and that our humanity is good and that our sexuality is good, male and female. And that the very act of intercourse, of creating life and having orgasm and joy and bonding to another person, that all derives from the heart of God. And so first of all, it's just unexpected is helping us dive in. And having a positive thoughts and concepts and convictions about our human sexuality is good because I think that hasn't been the starting point for a lot of us. It was typically for me, it was something I was wrestling with or fighting it because it was all lust based rather than how to normalize our sexuality as good. And our sexual feelings we can't always control, but we can always control our behavior. Right. And so just that that framework sometimes is an unexpected gift maybe that you can begin to read and see and maybe just offer another paradigm. You know my famous line, it's always good to get kicked in the paradigm. Right. To have someone offer a thought that might be a little different than you're used to hearing. I think another thing is that we talked about this ongoing conversation and educating yourself that there's a lot you can learn from other people.

People.

And so we've brought a lot of experts to the table or we quote a lot of people here that we've learned from and that have give good language. And then I think the other thing that may be unexpected is just practicing your communication. If you're not used to saying certain words, then when you know, it's like, dad, how come you're getting red in the face? Right? Or how come this is awkward if you're not used to talking about erections or these aren't things that. And I tell just a lot of stories in the book about just language and how sometimes if it's unfamiliar to us, we're not even going to say that like orgasm or erection or. Those would all be negative words.

Yeah. If you can't use the name of the body parts you're communicating to your kids, those are awkward. That's off limits. So we need to use the real words and help them see that's normal. There's healthy views on these things and we don't need to act like it's this big scary topic.

Right, Right. In fact, I would recommend that a couple buy the book and read a chapter out loud to each other. Out loud. So. Because sometimes even we know that healthy couples in marriage, they can articulate and communicate their sexual needs and meet the needs of their partner because they're talking about it. It doesn't just happen through osmosis. We learn how to grow and be better lovers to one another. And so if we're not used to communicating about these things, just reading books aloud, I mean, I took that from some psychologists years ago that I thought, man, that's brilliant because we're not used to talking about these things. And so just the language piece is really, really helpful. And there's so many ways that you can learn. So I think keep, keep pressing toward that.

I think another unexpected piece might just be that parents learning. I think younger parents are learning this more, but that it's an ongoing conversation. It isn't a puberty talk and a sex talk because that's what we're used to. And so how do I integrate this ongoing conversation into just the way that we do life, into a whole bunch of little conversations and into more than even just sex. But that's about respect and that's about what does intimacy look like and what does real connection look like and being able to talk and walk through those different questions that our kids have.

Yeah.

And not waiting for that conversation. I think, I mean like the purity weekend is a great concept, but if you're just banking all of the, like when they get there, when we get there, when we. You're going to try to open up 95 doors all at once that they're not really prepared for. So at age appropriate ways, starting to introduce these themes and concepts and topics. And then when you have a weekend that can be a great focal point, a connection with your kids. I mean, do that, but make sure you have good lead in and follow up that it is ongoing. That's so good.

Used to be a checklist like got.

That done, they turned 13, we're good to go.

Reminds me of a quote that I heard someone say the other day. I thought it was great. And Tracy will know who said it because I don't know who said it. So I'll probably take credit for it here in just a couple days. But it was like, don't just have one talk for 100 minutes, but have 1001 minute talks all throughout their lifetime. And I just thought, my goodness, that's wonderful.

That was me. I texted you again.

Yeah. So anyway, but I mean, there you go. Just what you're saying, you know. And I think another unexpected surprise would be that it isn't the kid that needs help as maybe as much as the parent. And it's the only person I can change is me.

Right?

That's the only one I can. I can really change. So if I give myself to health and growth and I keep becoming a student and I'm vulnerable and I'm humble and I take the disposition of learning and that's going to be a great gift that I pass on in my family and set the tone as mom and dad.

There's like a leadership principle that everyone wins when a leader gets better. And I think that the same thing is true about the household. Like, everyone in the household gets better if a parent gets healthier, educates themselves more, grows more. So you guys are already talking about this, this idea of not the one time, which for me was one time, birds and the bees. That's it. I remember the first time I heard the F word out loud and went home and I asked my mom and I mean, she'd be just. She would feel terrible about it. I don't blame her at all. But I remember I asked her and I said it out loud, what does this word mean? And she goes, oh, honey, don't use that word. And immediately it was like, okay, shame. Got it. Okay. And then we ended up having that conversation, the birds and the bees.

Then.

So let's talk about then. Why one time conversation, like, how detrimental is that and why is it detrimental to a kid's understanding of sexual.

Well, I wouldn't know that it's detrimental in the sense of. I just don't think it's the better way.

So let's talk about that then.

Why isn't it the better way? I think the better way is that as kids grow up in our homes, that home, the dinner table, this was a dinner table. That it becomes a safe place to learn and grow. And we don't learn everything at once, right? I mean, I wish we did.

Right.

I mean, just the fact that we're doing a podcast here today. You started podcast one and now you're at 123 or something like that. Right. So you've learned a lot in the process. So the education, when it comes to our humanity, how we're wired, our sexuality, how we connect with people, it's pretty holistic. So you just don't get all that at once. And I think for us, the book is more about, again, a healthy family environment than just this is all about sex. It's all about this, an act or how you're made. It's really a broad perspective about the kind of home environment you're trying to create, where learning and growing is a part of that. And that's why we're in school so long, because it takes a while for us to learn some things. Right. So that's what I would say to that.

I'm just thinking back again to that early conversation because of exposure. So it's better that our child hears from us in that appropriate way. And they even have books like that right now, like good pictures, bad pictures. So it's on their level to be able to give them a little bit of context and a little bit of framework so that when they are exposed to something, they feel safe to come to their parent and it's not as traumatizing to them. So I think if we have that one time conversation, it's generally more at that adolescent age. The other thinking behind that too for me is when they're younger, they're so much more impressionable. They're like a sponge for everything that their parents saying. And so that is such a great time, such an opportunity to train them, even up through that pre adolescence. And then they began to look more towards their peers and towards what culture is saying. And I think at that stage we move a little bit more to I want to stay in the conversation with you. I want to be a safe person that you come to. I want to remain in the conversation. So the younger years, the earlier start and then all the way through adulthood. I mean, we're sexual beings from birth all the way through adulthood. So if we see that differently. And I think I grew up thinking I didn't even know, like sexuality, your own sexuality was a thing. I just, you know, you have puberty and you have a sexual relationship with your spouse. So to understand I was a sexual being from the first time I, you know, took breath from my conception and I will be until I die, whether I'm married, not married, however old I am, that if a parent has that understanding, they're going to be looking at it from a different way, and they're going to pick up on things that we would normally miss.

It's interesting as you say that, Tracy, because I think about culture and how if kids turn to culture to learn and grow, culture doesn't judge them. Especially now, the attitude of culture is be you, do you whatever you want. So that can be a stark contrast. If they feel at home, it is judgmental and it's critical and it's shameful. It's like, what's not safe? And that's, I think what we're talking about here is how do we create a culture where our kids do feel like mom and dad are the safest people in the world, like you said, Rodney, because culture does feel safe. I mean, there's people that judge and bully in culture, too. But as a whole, culture just accepts our views. And I think as parents, we need to think through that, of how can I make sure my kids know I love and accept them, even as we maybe have hard conversations? So to maybe go in a little bit of a different direction. For some of our listeners, this may be a challenging area because they feel like they've really messed up their sexuality. They feel like when they were a kid, they were just a mess. And, and they're on the journey now of getting healthy, but maybe they're in their 30s, 40s, 50s, and they're looking at their kids, whether they're little or grown, and thinking, I was so messed up and I'm only getting healthy now. What do I have to offer? So how would you encourage those parents to stay in the game and not think that they're disqualified because of their past?

The first chapter in the book is pursue personal health. And part of that is just going back to that. If we're not healthy, it's hard to be able to, to share with our kids or to create that environment, that safe environment. I think that our kids can sense when we have shame, they pick up on those things. And so to me, that's about continuing to grow. So that's something that in our family, we say a lot our kids will know that that's a theme of our family, is to keep growing. We don't have it all figured out. None of us do still. But we're on this continual path of growth. And so we point that because I think I've heard that from parents before. I mess up, messed up, but boy, I hope my kids do better than I did, or I wish I could help them, but I don't even know what to say because I screwed that whole thing up. And so to be able to know that I can go back and look at that and deal with my shame and have a healthier way forward for them. It's just never too late to do that.

And I would just simply add trace because you said that really profound, that was great. But there's no such thing as a perfect parent. There's never been one. Right, right.

So.

So the reality is that we've all made mistakes. We'd all like do overs. In fact, in the book we write about some of our mistakes because we want parents to know you're not going to have time to make them all, so why don't you learn from some of them all. But we also say, hey, here's some things that we picked up that we did. Right. And so it's that balance of that and it's one of the things I love about. I'll just talk a little shout out to my mom and dad in 90 and 91. But they've kept right. And I think that's such a beautiful trait. You know, I've watched my dad in his 70s and 80s just be a more loving, caring, compassionate person to my mother and the family and his vulnerability and his growth. And I think, man, when I'm 80, you know, I hope my kids are watching me just still on that growth path and still on that. I want to, you know, continue to follow my faith and integrate the ways of Christ into all my life. And when I know better, I want to do better and move down that road. So yeah, I just would say to that parent, I understand you. I understand wishing I could have some do overs. In the book I talk about some of those do overs I wish I could have, but I can't. But here's what I can do. I can say to my kids, you know what I think I didn't do that. Right. And I can look at them and just own that and be vulnerable with my own mess up. And what I found is that, you know, our kids are adults 22, 26 and 27, somewhere around in there. And don't ask me their birthdays, but they're right around in there. But I'm still their parent, I'm still their dad. And so I love when one of my kids will call me when they're maybe making a mistake or on the backside of something they did and they're saying, dad, I need some help. Help me with this. Because they deem me as safe and they realize, oh, we can make mistakes in our home and learn and Grow from them. And so if you can get that at a younger age with your kids or grandkids. And that's why I really encourage grandparents to the book, because many of our grandparents are doing the raising of kids. But then we can also, you know, buy a book for your. For your younger kids and help them in that regard, just to continue that growth in education.

So this is something I love about you guys, and I think that. And I think that it's profound. I think it's not just to our kids, look at the mistakes that I made and don't make them. It's also look at how I process and grow from my mistakes that you.

Need to pay attention.

So it's not just, you know, dad was. Because this is gonna be a conversation I'm gonna have with my kids. Like the idea of, look, buddy, daddy struggled with pornography. I struggled with this struggle with sexual sin. But this is how I'm getting healthy. This is how I've processed it. These are the steps I'm taking to change to get better. So it's not just like, hey, so sorry that I did this, or I freaked out at you, but also, here's my plan to work on that. So it's allowing that process, because I think that in the moment, we have a really innate sense of right and wrong. Have I done something wrong? Okay, that probably wasn't the best idea, but the problem is, or the issue is not identifying right or wrong. It's how to make the change. And so I think that including in the process, which is something. You guys are always in process, and you're always sharing that. So for you, it's just natural now in the culture of your home. And I think it's just profound if you allow people to not only know right, wrong, but also process of getting.

Better and also know their intrinsic worth.

It all starts with in the process.

Like, it's okay to be like, you're valuable and your value is not based on your behavior. One of those. Our last chapters really speak to that in this concept that we roll out called the value ring. And it's that. It's. It's that, you know, I won't. Spoiler alert.

That whole story is worth the price.

I'm just telling you. It's just saying we want you to see your intrinsic worth and then make moral decisions, all kinds of decisions, based out of seeing your worth and value. Not. Here's the rules. Try not to break them to get us mad or God mad. This is about showing you the better way to Live life. And so if you can just model that. And I, I just would love a kid to learn something and they get the lesson at age 10 than to have to learn it at 20 or 30 or. I've had 76 year olds in my group. You know what I'm like, I'm so glad you're here now. 86 is tough, right? You've heard me say that before. I'm glad you're getting a jump start on this. But that's what we're trying to do. We're trying to. And the way you help the 10 year old is by mom and dad having that kind of culture that they're setting and establishing. And this is all about growing and learning.

It makes me think that our kids don't need perfection. Our kids need connection. And connection comes from vulnerability and humility. And so if you're a parent that feels like you really messed up, that's okay. Inappropriate ways share that with your kids because they're going to suddenly feel through your vulnerability and humility. It's like, wow, Mom's a real person, Dad's a real person. I can go to them. And I know you and I have talked, Rodney, that with our dads, it felt like he was amazing and perfect and how could I bring these faults up to him because I didn't see that coming from him. So if we lead the way in that and create connection for our kids, it's not based on our performance or goodness anyway. So don't let your past faults keep you from this connection with your kids.

In fact, vulnerability done right is attractive.

Yeah, absolutely.

It really is. It's attractive. And so our third chapter is Foster Connection. And Nick, you said it so well, because that's our greatest need, is connection. Right? We all want to fit in. Whether it's a family, a work environment, a school or a sports team, whatever, we're all trying to fit in. And so family should be the number one place where we say there's a seat at this table for you and your valued individual here, and we love you. And they feel that intimate connection because that's what we're modeling for them is intimacy. Right? That's our greatest human need, is intimacy into me. You see? And so these are the kind of things we talk about in the book.

I think that was one of our biggest desires in the book, even as it progressed, is just that the parent has the equipping or the framework to be able to add on to whatever they already have. If they have nothing, if they have good things, but to be able to add on to that and look at the culture and be able be a part of creating that culture in their family. And it's not a culture of just what I need to teach my kids now, because I got it figured out. But we're creating a family where we all keep growing together. We're all working on our communication and continuing the conversation, and we're all learning how to deeply connect in a better way. And so that just would be our heart that people that read this book, that it would be a whole family systems, family norms. What are our unwritten and written rules, and what are the things that we want to take with us, and what are the things that we want to let go of? Because maybe we brought them in from our family of origin and they don't need to go with us or they don't need to be passed on to our.

And we say it sometimes like this. Whatever you see to our kids, we say, whatever you see your mom and I in our marriage or the family that you grew up in, that's good and healthy, take it with you and use it as a foundational block to build on. But our dysfunction and our craziness, that isn't healthy. Please leave it here with us. And we give you permission not to carry that on. Now, the sad part would be, is if we wouldn't think, if we didn't think we had any dysfunction or that we were somehow perfect because of our religious belief or our vocation as a pastor, that we do things the right way. You know, that's our last name, right? So, you know, everything we must do is right. You know what I'm saying? Or because we're a Christian family, we do everything the Christian way. You know, if you're in debt and you're not saving, that's not the Christian way, that's the unhealthy way. So it's not so much about Christianizing or secular, it's just about what's healthy, you know, and if you have secrets and you can't feel safe to share those secrets, that's not healthy, right?

So one of the things I think a lot of. A lot of Christian kids walk out of the house carrying is shame around the topic of sex. And so let's talk like a little bit practical right now. Let's say there's a parent who, whether you're about to have a kid, you have a kid, or, you know, in the next couple years, that kid's going to be leaving your house. How can we be A part of taking shame out of the topic of sexuality.

I say keep growing. Keep growing as an individual and then.

Like educating yourself, reading, processing. What do you mean by that growth?

Well, what's coming to my mind is normalize and validate. And that's not normalizing negative, harmful behavior. That's normalizing and validating the process. Just like we've been talking about. We are all in process. So being able to do that with your kids, I think that's a part of it. When I'm talking about being healthy, that's about group. That's about connection for ourselves so that we can pass that on. So part of, I mean, in the book, we created it so there's questions and applications so people can do it as a couple or they can do it in a small group. So because we learn from each other, we're learning around this table from each other. And it's not just Rodney and Tracy who have answers. It's we learn from people. We learn from people. Yeah, we learn from people. People. And we each learn from each other. And so I think we can, we can take from what's good and what's bad. In the conversation.

I like what Bernay Brown says about shame. You know, she's written some wonderful stuff and I think she's a great voice for the world in this regards. But she talks about, you know, if you don't own your story, it traps you. I won't give. It won't be a direct quote, but we have it in the book. But she says when you own your story, you have a chance to write a brave moment ending. And I think one of the things of not passing on shame to your kids is that you probably still have some shame work to do in your own soul as a parent. So this is the power of community. It's the power of confidential, closed betrayal and beyond group or seven pillar group or unraveled group or right. You know that when you do that soul work in your own soul, then you're not going to project that shame. You're going to say to your kids, kid, hey, where you going, dad? Where are you going today? I'm going to my men's group. Right. I'm going to go see my counselor today. Oh, okay. My dad goes and seeks help because that's what healthy people do. And you're already lowering shame about those areas of their life that maybe they feel uncomfortable with or, you know, I've made some mistakes in these areas. And when you get out there and if you get stuck, I Want you to know you can call me, you know, So I think that's really important. And this is not just about sex. It's about all kinds of areas in life. Right? It transcends all this.

So a follow up question to that. A lot of kids with the shame, the shame comes from that performance mentality of I've got to live up to mom and dad's standard, I want to be the good boy or the good girl. I want to do right, not wrong. And if I do wrong, I feel shame. And what you're talking about is changing that culture to be more growth based and health based. So again, what kind of practical advice? Like, how could parents start making that shift? Because I think it's human nature. We're trying to teach our kids right from wrong and don't do that. Shame on you. We maybe even have heard ourselves say those words, words. And we're naturally kind of in that, do the right thing, don't do the wrong thing. But how do we shift the focus more towards health and growth?

Well, that was the heart behind our book. A couple of our chapters are like train and guide, don't shame and punish. And so realizing there's a difference between we talk about discipline and consequences versus punishment. So having a mindset that's redemptive. This is, you know, we start talking about scripture and theology, you know, we can divide this a lot. But I see the heart of God as redemptive than punitive. Absolutely. So for me, I see the judgment of God as not saying, well, I'm pissed, those kids down there on earth, right? Blah, blah, blah, and he's just ready to get us. I see the heart of God revealed in Christ to be very redemptive. And when Jesus met sexually broken people, we see it in scripture that the heart of God through Christ was redemptive. Where are those who condemn you? Neither do I. Now go and sin no more. It was the elevation of their worth and value. And it was more about focusing on their growth and guiding them than just to focus on, don't do that bad behavior, you're going to get condemned for that. And then the whole just focus on growth, not perfection, is that mistakes are a part of our learning in life. I think that's so key. And I'm not talking about mistakes necessarily equaling sin necessarily, but just mistakes. Right?

Like I didn't actively pursue this knowing it was wrong. I stepped into, into this not knowing what I was doing and it ended up maybe being wrong.

I clicked onto something and it shot this dopamine in my brain and I'm hooked. And it wasn't like I had this evil intent of my heart. Like, I'm. I'm only four, but I'm going to see if there's porn in the world, right?

Totally.

You know, I got the spirit of lust on me. You know what I'm saying? Here I go. You know, get the M&M's. It could be a long day. You know, it's not that kind of thing. They're just kids, and if they make a mistake, we want to be able to help guide them.

Totally. Yes.

There's a lot of stories I put in the book about that, but one of them that just comes to my mind is, you have to read it in the book. How about that?

There you go.

There you go. Self discipline, right?

That's really good.

I think part of it is looking at our core beliefs, and that's what you do in any kind of recovery work. So if someone's listening and they haven't figured out that we're all in recovery, that you can do some of your own recovery work. So like you were saying, Nick, if you see that in my family, we seem to be shaming. We seem to expect perfection. And a lot of times that comes from if we had a parent that expected perfection and then we expected of ourselves, and we can pass that on and expect it of our kids. So if you are seeing that, it's taking a look at some of our belief systems. And in the book, we do try to challenge some of our family and our religious norms that we have that we take on. So challenging some of that. Think about that and how might I need to correct that? And then who do I have around me? Because if all I have is me, I'm isolated in my mind. You know, things can sound good in my brain, but I need people around me that reflect back to me what they see and what's going on in my world and in my family. So where do I have those people around me that are reflecting that back? And then where am I challenging that belief and then taking those steps, just like we do in anything else that we want to change. Taking those steps over a period of time where we change, change that slowly. And I think you begin to see that if you. If you are intentional and you begin to see to be looking for shame messages. You hear it when it comes out of your mouth. And maybe you don't catch it the first time, but maybe you catch it as you go down the road and you get better at it, we, what we do in our family right now is not most definitely where we did not start, but we keep changing things as we see them, as we catch it, as we say. Something about this doesn't sit right with me. This is maybe how I was raised or this is how I, what my belief system was, but, but something about this doesn't seem like the way of love, doesn't seem like a Christ centered way.

Yeah. So great to remind us that it's a process, that this isn't just a snap your fingers, change your culture over and done thing. You might in a moment make the decision to change your focus. But actually making that transition as a family is a process of growth and learning and conversations and missteps and backtracking and offering apologies and forgiveness. And like it's that focus of continuing to walk it out is what I hear you saying.

And there's grace and there's truth and there's guidance along the way. And so it's not like, well, I read the book, I got all that figured out now. It's not like that. Yeah, it's like, wow, this is encouraging me to continue to grow, to continue to learn. This has helped me to think and I love what Traci said about we're all in need of recovery. And in our churches we just think, you know, we have a recovery ministry for people who need recovery, recovery. And the reality is we're all addicted to our way of thinking. It's sin. It's the universal problem that has affected all of us like a disease to be healed. And so whether you were raised in a strict religious home or no faith whatsoever, we're all susceptible to our stinking thinking. And so being aware of that and identifying that is how we're going to move forward. And we learn best in community. We grow in community. We were made for community, community. And one of the things we say that. Tracy, some great thoughts just about having takeaways at the end of each chapter and then group questions. So we would recommend that you could take this book and do it as a group study for couples. Now to me, that would be a wonderful for some really good dynamic learning because you're all going to bring your history, you're going to bring your education, you're going to bring how you learned, what worked, what didn't work. And that collection, collective tribal wisdom, so to speak, is how we all get better. You know, we learn.

So if you haven't listener, viewer been convinced to buy this book, we're going to give you the Opportunity. Now, Rodney and Traci, why should people buy this book? Why do they need it in their lives?

Well, I mean, listen, so many reasons. I made so many mistakes as a young kid and had so much shame wrapped around my sexuality. I was damaged goods, and I believed the lie for many, many years. And I projected some of that shame even onto my own kids. And I thank God for people and resources that continue to move us down the road of healing. And for me, you know, if somebody gets the book and it helps a dad to move forward to getting his own health or a mom, or helps a kid hear something, that doesn't create shame, but puts that kid on a whole other trajectory toward a different direction. Nick. And that kid marries another individual, and a husband and wife marry, and they start having kids with a completely different friend framework. Yeah, that's. To me, it's all about the next generation. It's about paying it forward. And for me, I just want to say, you know, again, here's some of my challenges, and here's where this whole arena was so difficult for me growing up. I take full responsibility for my actions and my choices. I've found grace for myself. And I just now want to say, hey, why wouldn't we share some of that to help some other people down the road so that our kids and our grandkids can be better people because of that. So for me, that's that, you know, that's why I'm all getting the resource in as many hands as we can.

I think one of the biggest things in anything I do in life is to know I'm not alone, to let other people know they're not alone. So when I think of this book, I'm like, this is an opportunity, another opportunity to know that you're not alone. All of us that are parents are walking this road together, trying to figure it out, trying to do the best that we can with what we've got and improve on that. And so it's an opportunity to grow, take on another perspective. Keep going.

Yeah. I took English as a second language in college, and now I'm an author of a book with my wife, Tracy.

God can do anything.

It's a miracle. It's a miracle. It's nothing short of a miracle.

So, like they said, grab the book. It's available now@puredesire.org Kids, you can grab it. And as you guys talked about, it's something you can do with other couples, with the community of people. People you can engage this topic, but really, what we're after is changing the culture in the home.

For sure.

Changing the culture in the home. Dropping shame off this topic. And really what we're doing is, like you said, we're creating this new trajectory for our kids and their lives will be different because of it. And so listen, it's truthful, it's practical. Rodney alludes to many stories you guys tell, which are excellent stories, and there really is no reason not to pick up this resource if it's not for you. You educate yourself, understand how to help other people talk to their kids, create this culture in their home.

And I think also we tackle some difficult subjects. How do you talk to your kid about masturbation? What are the different thoughts within Christendom on that? You know, I just, we, it's, it's not like we're shying away from this and it's just about theory. Yeah. We're trying to dive in and give some, give some tools that really, in language to really help articulate what do you believe and why. Yeah. And then the other thing is as an organization, Pure Desire, I mean, we really want to help churches and resource parents. And so, so I know our heart is to come to churches and to do parent training.

Bring these guys in.

Yeah.

And I think we'd love to have you do that.

And I think there's a lot of the Pure Desire team that can, that is able to come really help us because I love what Ted and Diane have started with the healing ministry here to bring healing to our souls. But it's just beautiful to see this next wave coming of let's be proactive and to see our organization really say, hey, let's help the kid that's not even, not even, maybe even born yet. But they're going to be fruit of what's been started here 15 years ago.

Amen.

So whether you're a grandparent, you're married, you have kids, you're single, get this book. It's going to be helpful for you guys. Thank you for writing it, being willing to share, pushing into your own recovery and your own health and for being with us today. Appreciate it.

Nice to see you again, Trevor. As Brady would say.

Yeah.

Thank you guys very much.

La.