125 - Myth Busters: Christians Can't Be Addicted

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You're listening to the Pure Desire podcast. Your safe place to find hope, healing, and freedom from sexual addiction, betrayal, and relationship issues.

Hello.

Hello. I'm your host, Trevor Windsor, and you are listening to episode 125 of the Pure Desire podcast. Here with me, as always, is my co host, Nicholas J. Stumbo.

Good morning and in case I don't see you later, good afternoon, good evening, and good night.

So for fans, let's just do this. For people who don't like Jim Carrey, why don't you tell them what movie that's.

That is one of his most unique movies, the Truman show, because he doesn't play the comedic genius as much as he plays someone in a real life drama. It's. It's his life on film. Yeah, it's actually one of my favorite movies. Not necessarily the acting, but just the concept of would you rather have a safe, controlled, perfect life?

Right.

Or would you rather, you know, leave that world and go into the unknown? And his. His processing of that and, and leaving and risking, I. I just think is a cool idea.

Yeah. So before we talk about our episode, cause I'm sure there's always a tie in from your intro to our episode, couple quick things. If you've not subscribed to the podcast, please do check us out on all the major platforms and give us a review. The more reviews we get, the easier it is for people to find the podcast and get connected. And then also if you are not following us on social media, we ask that you do on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram. If you are able to be healthy on social media, we just say, let us be a part of your feed. You can follow us earedesirepdmi. And then if you wanna watch these episodes, we actually have full video episodes on YouTube now of the podcast.

So please keep in mind I have a face for radio.

Okay. All right, great. But you could search Pure Desire Ministries and find Nick's face for radio. The last thing before we get into what we talked about today is 2019 is rounding down and man, 2020 is coming around the corner. I feel like there's so many illustrations for pastors that are gonna be so great in one of the things that as the year is wrapping up, we just really want to push and encourage people to share their story and to push getting healing and to encourage people to join Pure Desire groups and get health and recovery. And another one of the ways that people can help is by giving financially. And so we started a giving campaign called Free People. Free People.

Yeah. We're Kind of playing off the idea that hurt people hurt people. That on the negative side, when we are not processing our pain and our wounds, we transmit it to others whether we ever intend to or not. So the reality is that we are all passing on something. And so as we find health and freedom and joy, we want to ask the question, how can I pass that on? And we hope people are engaged in their family and passing it on and paying it forward in their local church and as God leads them, that they would consider partnering with what we do at Pure Desire, because this is a message that needs to get to so many people. And we feel like what we're doing now is just a drop in the bucket. And so we ask people, could one of the ways you pay it forward be a financial gift to Pure Desire? And whether that's a year end thing or as a recurring giver, it would mean a lot to us. And even at $10 a month, as a recurring giver, you are engaging and helping others find hope and healing like you did. So pray about it, consider it. And if God lays it on your heart, we would be so grateful for your participation with us.

Yeah. And if you want to partner with us that way, just go to PureDesire.org FreePeople all right, so, Nick, we sat down with Heather Kolb, speaker, writer, all things editor. Yeah, she's super smart. I don't even want to list out all the ways that she's smart. But we sat down to do our second mythbusters episode and talk about really this myth that Christians cannot be addicted.

Yeah, well, and just like Jim Carrey in the Truman show had to discover that his world was a myth. And it started when a light fell from the sky in the middle of the street in front of him. And he suddenly realizes, like, maybe there's more going on than I realize. I think that's what we're trying to do with this Myth Busters, is get people to think maybe there' going on than just, well, someone doesn't have Christ, that's why they're addicted. Or they don't have the Holy Spirit. And you and I both wish it was that simple. Like, well, just bring in Christ and addiction will end. But we want to look at the complexity of how a vibrant spirituality can actually coexist with a real problematic behavior in someone's life. And yeah, they're in contrast, they're intention, but the two can coexist. And so what does it look like to acknowledge that and then deal with it and move forward?

Yeah. And Obviously, having Heather on always helps. Cause she's got research and brain stuff to back it up. So you will enjoy this. So here's the episode. Heather, thanks for being with us today.

Hi, guys. Nice to be back.

We are glad that's a good episode.

Yeah. Looking forward to having it. Yeah. So we are jumping into our second mythbusters episode. And the myth that we're gonna be talking about today is that Christians can't be addicted. So we're gonna jump in. Many of us go through life knowing that addiction is real. It happens in the world, whether we know somebody or know somebody who. Somebody that has struggled with an addiction. But when it comes to Christians and being saved and then filled with the Holy Spirit, the thought of addiction being a part of our lives seems really silly and really unclear. So why do we as Christians struggle with the idea that we can be addicted?

Yeah. I think for me, a couple of answers come to mind, and Heather may chip in with some kind of the brain side of how Christians do or don't view it. But I think for a lot of us that grew up in a Christian background or in the church, we see addiction through the lens of a spiritual problem. That someone has a dependence on a substance or a behavior, and instead of having a dependence on Christ, and it's like, well, if you would just depend on Christ more, if you just pray more, you wouldn't have this. And there certainly is a spiritual component to addiction, but it's really, really a narrow focus to think of addiction as a spiritual problem. It's ignoring a lot of other. And I think another thing that goes along with that is that we define addiction by degree, like how far someone is struggling. And so it's like, well, if you've crossed all those lines, you must not even know right from wrong, or you might. Must not believe what the Bible says about obedience and how to live. And because you've made these decisions, maybe you don't have faith at all. And so we feel like, well, if. If I have an addiction, maybe I can't be a Christian because of how I'm defining even the word addiction versus what. What we see so much more. And this is where we get into the brain stuff is. Is that addiction is rooted in patterns in our life. And when all of us come to Christ, whether we came to Christ at 5 or 50, there are patterns that are being developed in our thinking, in our emotions, and our family of origins that crafted these, the context and culture we grew up in. And we would look at so many areas of life and say, well, just because you came to Christ doesn't mean he immediately fixes all your negative patterns. So if that's true in other areas of life, whether it's eating habits or swearing, and. And yes, we want to make room for the fact that there is miraculous. There are miracles in life that God has. When people come to faith, he's miraculously healed them from certain things. But none of us believe God miraculously heals everything in our life that we immediately become perfect. I mean, that's just a very ridiculous formulaic thought about Christianity, that they become perfect. So if we know we don't immediately become perfect, that all of our old patterns aren't immediately fixed, then wouldn't it make sense that there may be patterns in our life where we've become stuck in a behavior and we could call that addiction? So what I really see here is what we're talking about today is the process, and I'll use a big churchy word, a process of sanctification. Sanctification really just meaning becoming more like Christ. And if we see that in my life, I need to grow more towards Christ, it may be one of those areas is in an addictive pattern or an addiction that I have that isn't about the degree of my struggle, but it's about the amount of dependence I have on something or how often I've gone to that pattern. And I'm really needing to bring the pattern to Christ as much as just the behavior, which is more of the outcome of that pattern. So I think a lot of it is just in our understanding of what we think of when we hear the word addiction.

I think that that's very true because we tend to put addictive behaviors almost on a hierarchy. And so if a Christian is struggling with porn or sexually addictive behaviors, then they're seeing seen as worse, rather than somebody who maybe has a strong caffeine dependence or like you said, has an unhealthy relationship with food or both of those things. Yeah, exactly.

For those that can't see on camera. Right.

But we tend to think that there are some more socially acceptable behaviors or patterns like you say, that really are addictive behaviors, but yet we don't look at them through the same lens as we do when somebody struggles with porn and sex addiction.

Well, and it's not like when we get saved, that the Holy Spirit just grabs like the joystick or the controller and then just starts to do his own thing in our lives. Like, there's always a partnership, which means there's always going to be brokenness as a part of the growth pattern in my life. Yeah, I'm going to keep getting better. But there's also, like, one of my favorite illustrations a friend has told me about and talked me through before I even became a dad. He was saying, as my son's learning to walk and he falls down, I don't yell at him for falling down. I celebrate when he gets back up and tries again. So there's going to be that process of growth and development in any area. And so I think that practically we know that, but when it comes to applying it to addiction, we become very black and white and decide, you know what, either it's this or it's that there can't be this gray area and this toiling, this struggling, this process when it's like, we all know that we struggle and we all grow the same way.

Well, I think another thing that keeps us from thinking Christians can be addicted is we think of addicts as a category that is unchristian, basically. And, and maybe we haven't really stopped and thought about it, but a lot of people, they picture an addict as the homeless crowd, the person in prison, the person that's just totally shipwrecked their life, abandoned relationships, and it's like, oh, well, that's not me. Well, that doesn't mean you're not an addict. And I remember that was my struggle when as a pastor who really was doing his best to pursue God, a mentor said, you are telling me all the things that we would use to classify addiction. There's dependence, even though you've tried to stop and it's causing you pain. It's like, I had to get through this mental hurdle of how could I be a pastor and be an addict? And coming to a place of saying those two things don't have to be mutually exclusive. It's not in, well, either I love Jesus or I'm addicted. Like, it's possible you could be loving Jesus in this good area of your life, but in the unredeemed, still in process part of you, you could be struggling with addiction, and it doesn't mean you're not saved. So sometimes as Christ followers, we get into these either or situations, and we need to get a little more comfortable with it. Could be both, and you could be both a sincere follower of Christ and battling through addictive issues in your life. And one doesn't nullify the other. Right.

And so then as a church, why are we afraid to use terms like addict or addicted or even addiction?

Okay, I'm Going to try to not get preachy because I'm passionate about this topic in general or ideas like this. Because I think that the church. I had a conversation with a guy on a plane recently, not a believer, lives in Portland, hangs out, really great guy, had a great conversation. And what I have heard from him, what I've heard from others, is the black and white tension and struggle in church really ends up running over a lot of people. And so I think that the church likes to either, yes, we know this is true, or like, yes, we know this is false. And so I think that the fact that the word addicted feels so black and white and when not understanding that it's actually all played out in the gray is the struggle. That's why is because we don't know if it's okay or not or completely 100% true that someone can be a Christian and be an addict at the same time. I may get like, fire for this, but, like, I not fired, but fire from people that I was having a conversation with my wife the other day about. We have some friends who are on Rob Bell's podcast. And I just kind of as passing comment, I was like, I think people are going to be interested when Rob Bell gets to heaven. And we're like, what's up, man? Do I know if he's going to heaven? No, I don't know that. But what I know is, is that you don't have to be black and white 100% right or 100% wrong on anything in order to get into heaven. And so I think that that gray area is really uncomfortable. And there's a lot of things about it that make anybody who wants to know what's true uncomfortable. And I think because of that, the church is really, really hesitant to jump in and start using words that seem so black and white.

Yeah, yeah. And maybe that we just don't really understand the word. We don't understand what addiction is. And, you know, back to the brain science behind it. When we do an event and Heather explains to someone kind of the process of addiction in the brain, people hear it and go, oh, like that's me. Whatever their issue is, like, that's all of us get caught up in seeking pleasure and rewards to avoid pain and how that gets cemented in the brain. And the brain says, let's do that again. Like, that's like human nature. And it always reminds me of what Ted Roberts told me in my counseling journey of we're all made to be addicted. We're made to be addicted to Jesus and the pleasure of living life with him and what he gives us in terms of joy and contentment. But he says, in our fallen world, we've learned to be addicted to something else. And I think when you start to recognize that, and you see I'm in a whole church full of addicts, they may not define it that way, but every one of us is addicted to a way of thinking. We're addicted to pride. We're addicted to anger. We're addicted to food. It's what we go to in an almost compulsive way to meet our needs and to feel good, and we start to define it that way. I think the shame level goes down. The fear of the Word, it's like, oh, addiction isn't for that 1% of people way out on the extremes. It's like, who we are, it's the human condition. And that really starts to make a difference in our thinking about the Word.

Yeah, I think the Word also carries kind of this negative label, you know what I mean? That totally points to our weakness and our vulnerability and really our lack of control. And again, it's that idea that you were talking about where we were created to be dependent on God, but now we have this other area that we're dependent, which then makes us feel more shame and feel like, okay, now I can't even be a good Christian, you know? And I think that that is really what's happening in the church around this language.

Yeah, well, I'm glad you brought that up, because I think one of the reasons we're doing this podcast is the number of people we've heard say, and I wondered if I was even saved. And that is, to me, such a sad statement, because I really think it's the tool of the enemy that tries to condemn us. Or maybe it's our fallen nature or combination of the two. But that says if you really love Jesus, or if you really loved your family, if you really care, you wouldn't do this. And. And thinking just further isolates further shames. And you can have people struggling at this core level of, am I even saved? Like, that's not the issue at all. But that's where our shame takes us. And so the more we can understand this and talk about it, hopefully it gives people new courage and new strength to say, you know what? I am saved. I am in Christ. And just because I'm struggling doesn't mean my faith is weak even. It's just a sign that there's some things I've got to deal with.

Yeah, so we may have already answered this question, which I think maybe we have, but let's flesh it out a little bit more. Like, can straight up, can Christians be addicted?

Yes. Yes, they can. And really, one of the things that we know about Christians is that we're people. We're people, and we are not perfect. And it's that process, Nick, that you were talking about. And we live in a fallen world, and really, all of us are going to struggle with something, and especially when it comes to really understanding what's happening in the brain and how our brain, the brain architecture, is shaped through experience, good and bad experiences that really all of these things throughout our life contribute to the way our neural pathways are created in our brain. And really, it points to some ways that we need to work to renew our mind or rewire those neural pathways toward healthy behaviors. And again, it's going to take time. But, yeah, there's science supports that people, all people, can become addicted to substances and behaviors in the same way.

I would totally agree. I would say yes, definitely you can. It was my experience. And as I'm learning more about the brain and how my body works, is that addiction for me? What are things that releases dopamine, releases the chemicals in my brain that feel good, that allow me joy or happiness or that feeling of satisfaction, but then also things that allow me that escape. And so you can be addicted to even good things that are good for you. I mean, you talk about athletes. Like, I was an athlete through college, and you can become, and I have at times been absolutely addicted to the physical nature of working out, staying in shape, being healthy. You can be addicted to food in, like, in ways that are actually healthy for you. I heard a pastor one time say that gluttony isn't just an overuse of food in an unhealthy way. It's an unhealthy view of food, and it's your relationship to you. So I think that you absolutely can be addicted. And I think, again, let's not be afraid of the word, because if we're not afraid of the word, then we're more willing to identify what are those areas in my life that I have an unhealthy relationship with and really need to create some new habits in place.

Yeah. And maybe part of the reason we're asking the question, can Christians be addicted? Is because there's some fear that if we say yes, it's like we're normalizing it and we're making it okay, like, just to minimize it. Well, yeah, we're all addicted, no big deal. And that's not what we're saying. We're recognizing that, yeah, a Christ follower can be addicted and it's something that Christ wants to heal and redeem and bring new health in. Or perhaps the other fear is that we're reducing or minimizing the power of Christ in our lives. Because if we say a Christian can be addicted, is it meaning well then God, that God doesn't have power in our lives? No, we're just saying that we're not instantly made perfect. And it's actually giving Christ and the Holy Spirit more room in our lives to do a good work by acknowledging the honest depth and level of our struggle. I mean, I love the idea and a lot of people have written about it in quotes, just about the, the greater we understand our fallenness and our brokenness, the greater his grace and his redemption becomes. It's when we think, I'm in Christ, I'm a whole, I'm a new creation and we ignore our problems that we really actually limit God's power to help us because we don't think we need help. But the more self aware we become and we say, I'm in trouble and I need help, it glorifies Christ because we say, and he's my answer. Now let's look at how do I get that answer in my life? Which leads right into the next question, that if someone is addicted, how do we understand God's power to heal and change that person?

I'll jump in because I know, Heather, you're an expert on this. So I'm gonna say some things, then you're gonna tell me if I'm right or wrong. So over time renewal is possible? Absolutely. I think that it's important too to understand. What I'm saying is it's over time, renewal is possible. I just recently was listening to a podcast with John Mark Comer and Jeff Bethke about this idea of hurry and hu and how our culture has really taken those two words and almost created them as like these holy and sanctified words in our spiritual life, in the church. And what they're actually saying is that it's the opposite, is that the fact that we hurry, what it ends up doing is we end up shortchanging our growth and assuming there's something is actually more wrong with me because I haven't. One day I decided I'm going to lose 70 pounds and the next day I've lost 70 pounds. Oh no, that didn't happen. I must be a terrible person. Or this Diet doesn't work, or I should have done it different, or whatever.

Wants me to be fat.

Gosh. Right. And so I think that there's that idea that we buy into, and it creates a lot of unhealthy patterns in our lives, unhealthy ways of thinking. And I also think what you're saying about self awareness is that when I realize that I need Jesus and realize that I have some areas that I'm struggling in, what I can then do is because I've identified. So this is what. This is what it looked like for me. I identified what was motivating the addiction, what pain or wounds or trauma I was trying to heal. And then. So I identified those, and then identified the triggers, the things that made me feel those wounds or like someone was pricking at them, and identified those. And then I evaluated what are my habits, what are the things I go to when I am triggered and those wounds are then pricked. So what I did was then replace those with healthy behaviors. And as I've been learning about the brain, you cannot unlearn an unhealthy habit. Something that you have created that neurological roadmap or highway for. You can't just deconstruct that completely. It's always going to be there. So if you want to change behavior and change your habits, you have to learn something new. And so it's about that. And I believe it's Colossians, that idea of take off the old, put on the new. So it's not only stop doing this behavior, but start doing something else in place. And that, for me, is what created, over time, that renewal and that health. As I've learned, what wounds are there, what makes me feel them, and then when I feel those, what are healthy habits and healthy things I can do to pursue a community and pursue the Lord that then allow the healing to take place.

Yeah, that is so true. The fact that a lot of times when people struggle with addictive behaviors, their first thought is that I'm just going to stop doing this. I'm just gonna stop doing this, and then I'm gonna be fine. And really, because of the way our brain is wired and because of the way that we do things that elevate the amount of dopamine in our brain to the point where our brain craves that, then we have to replace it with something healthy that's not gonna go away super quickly. And especially if you've lived in addict mode for a lot of years, expect that it's gonna take time. Think about how much time it took you to get to where you are today and, and be willing to just slow and steady work your way toward health in really, in replacing one thing at a time, you know, replacing one new behavior, doing one thing and forward motion is the goal, not completion.

Yeah. And the thing I would add, and we've talked about it on this podcast before, but just thinking of that metaphor or the image of an iceberg, that what we can see above the water is our behaviors. And if all we focus on is changing the bad behavior, we're missing the majority of where the problem really lies. And that's below the surface in our thinking. Because before we're addicted to our behaving, we're addicted to our thinking. And even below that is our false or negative core beliefs that drive that thinking. So when we talk about God's power to heal us, we don't want to just try to apply it to the behavior. We really want to see the value of God changing our thinking and our believing. Because if our core beliefs, and this isn't just head knowledge, core beliefs, it's like the experience of who I am, where my identity comes from, and if that's being renewed and formed by God and his power in my life, that filters its way up into my thinking and alters my behaving. And it's one of the reasons why we know these principles work for a non believer. But we really encourage someone to take seriously the claims of Christ because apart from knowing your identity and your value in God, your Creator, and who Christ has made you to be, you're only going to have so much success in changing those core beliefs because otherwise you're just kind of going into some human empowerment of, well, I'm worthwhile, I'm valuable. And it's like, well, why? Well, because I am, you know, but if it's in God's creation of me and his values, like, well, there, there's real purpose there. And just seeing how that works its way up into my thinking and behaving is really where we see God at work.

Yeah, you can tell we've talked about this a lot because we already answer some of the questions and some previous questions. But so let's flush this out a little bit more. If someone is addicted, what are steps that they need to take freedom or take to find free freedom from that addiction?

Yeah. So I think that one of the more important steps is to break that isolation that's very common in our addictive behaviors. And really that could be just, you know, reaching out to one or Two safe people, people that you know are safe and confidential, that you can kind of just start to share your story with them, share how you're struggling. And. And again, like Nick, you were talking about those core beliefs. We really do need to dig deep and dismantle those. You know what I mean? Because those core beliefs are really impacting, you know, the way we're living our lives and impacting our brain development and our thought processes and the way that we relate to other people. And, you know, there's a lot of people who I think, struggle with the idea that, okay, I don't want to have to process my past, it's in the past and I want to leave it there. But if your past keeps jumping up in your, you know, in your daily life, then it's not content to stay in the past. And it's an indication of something that you really do need to deal with. And doing that with other people who are safe, who can help you, who are, you know, create this grace filled environment is a great first step.

And I remember asking Ted Roberts again this at the end of my first year of the healing journey, like, why has this worked? Why did this work when all my other attempts didn't? And I remember him drawing the three circles out and the first one being about the family of origin and the trauma and the wounds and understanding how those had created these false core beliefs and these negative messages and how that was starting to change through God's power in my life. And then the second circle being all about recognizing the pattern, seeing the arousal template and all of the ways that this had gotten stuck in my thinking, and then creating healthy guardrails and steps around that. And then the third circle really being about being honest, facing the truth no matter what it cost, not only with others, but even just with myself, about accepting I'd become addicted. That was part of the truth I had to face. And seeing how when all three of those circles were in action simultaneously, that change was occurring. And so when I think of how we're healed or how we are delivered from addiction, it's seeing, am I working along with what you said? First, Heather, in community, because this is very hard to become self aware by yourself. That's why you have blind spots, because you're by yourself. But in community, when I'm facing the truth, understanding my pattern, and seeing the wounds and false beliefs that drive it, that's where we really get traction. Yeah.

So basically get your shovel out and dig, dig under the surface and figure out what's going on.

Yeah. Definitely. So just to kind of wrap things up, how do we help others understand and really dispel this myth?

Yeah, what comes to mind for me is we have to be courageous. Because if someone is maybe being very negative or snarky about addicts or people that are addicted to porn, or we might have to be courageous to step up and say, you know, I was addicted to pornography and voice a little bit of our story and talk about, you know, it's not just an extreme behavior. It's about even a very silent way of becoming dependent on, a way of behaving and finding pleasure, even though we know in the moment it's a cheap high and it lasts for a moment the brain gets hooked on. And trying to, through the lens of our story, bring a little more understanding, that may be the key thing. Because there are many, many environments where addiction isn't understood. And it's only seen as well. Addicts are the extremes. And to help change people's thinking. I think rather than being argumentative or preachy, if we're more testimonial driven and the courage of our own story, that will begin to alter their thinking and make them hopefully ask more questions. And that's my other encouragement would be to approach it from the invitation to them to become curious. Have you ever thought about or have you ever considered this? Just the invitation of, hey, here's some stuff I want you to think about is more inviting than saying, well, you're wrong and think you've got it all. Here's the truth. Well, that's usually just going to create sides and more arguments. So think of how you can invite someone to become curious about that area and help them explore maybe what they don't yet know.

Yeah, I think too, the idea of educating yourself is always beneficial. And as I say that, I'm even thinking it's important to emphasize that it's not just educating yourself on the neurochemistry and understanding emotional health and the clinical stuff that really can help put handles on what health and recovery may look like, but also educating yourself biblically as to what the principles are and where you see this show up in Scripture. Because I think that that's one of the things the church tends to be so hesitant to accepting addiction and clinical approach and counseling and recovery stuff, because it's like, well, where in scripture do you see it? And I think that it's easy. Even this morning, as I'm like, I'm gonna say this, I'm not this amazing Christian who spends every morning in the Bible, but Like this morning, a prototypical Christian thing to say as I was reading my devotional. I was, but I was doing it. So, yes, be impressed. Cause I'm a seven and I don't like sitting down to do anything. So that's on Enneagram. I am way off topic. So here we go.

Focus, man, focus.

Was reading First Corinthians and realizing that Paul, when he is speaking to these people, he's not just writing scripture to write scripture. He's writing to somebody who has an experience, who is a normal person. They didn't have iPhones, they didn't have the Internet, they didn't have Netflix, they didn't have, you know, professional sport, whatever. Like they are human beings. They had same experience as me, same emotional issues and struggles, same wounds and trauma, all that. And so don't go like digging and trying to find something that can support your. Whatever it is you're trying to communicate, but also understand that they were real people. And so it's okay to read into the idea that there was a human that was experiencing human things in that experience, in that moment, in that passage. So start to understand that, start to research and do, man, just educate yourself. I think that that could be really helpful.

That is good. I think too, that is to always remember that no one sets out to become an addict. You know, that we don't ever have all the information. We never will know everything about their journey and their experiences and why they are where they are. And I think that it's really just important to give grace before anything else and just to, like you were saying, Nick, create that relationship with somebody. Because again, they might be struggling with addictive behaviors, but that's not who they are, you know, And I think that that's just, just so important to remember.

Yeah. And I think to your point, Trevor, about educating yourself, you know, we've talked about resources and it's maybe saying to someone, hey, have you ever read Pure Desire? Ted Roberts does a great job at laying out a biblical foundation and helping someone understand the process of addiction. Or if someone is more into the brain science, there's some great Christian authors like William Strothers in his book Wired for Intimacy. Or is it Tim Jennings Jennings and the God Shaped Brain? Or we've had Jay Stringer on the podcast. His book Unwanted would help someone understand through the lens of faith what's going on in their life. Or another one. Not from a Christian source, but just the documentary by Fight the New Drug Brain Heart World does a beautiful job of helping you understand addiction. Particularly in the sexual area, in a very non confrontive, you know, non brainiac kind of way. It's. It's really aimed at young adults. So if you've got a teenager or a college age person that's asking questions, man, go watch that documentary with them because it's just going to open the door to go, oh, this is what's going on. I'm not crazy. I'm not a pervert. I'm not some weirdo. I'm a human being that's gotten stuck in a behavior. And when you read those books or watch that film and you have a whole new understanding, it really becomes a new place to then invite God into that healing journey because you're not afraid of it anymore. It's like, you know what? We can do this. And that's encouraging. Yeah.

So understanding what's true and really how to properly address, talk about, and offer hope for people that are struggling with sexual addiction or even betrayal, just understanding it is so important having that, not only that understanding and the educating part, but also having your story and your experience as well. So we want to help more and more men and women, more and more communities understand what it means to find freedom and to experience it in long lasting ways. So we hope that this MythBusters episode helps you understand a little bit more of the topic and more are coming. So, Heather, thank you. Nick, thank you.

Yeah. This was fun.

Yeah. Great episode, guys. Thanks a lot. Awesome.