127 - Healthy vs. Sober

You're listening to the Pure Desire Podcast, your safe place to find hope, healing, and freedom from sexual addiction, betrayal, and relationship issues. Hey there. I'm your host, Trevor Windsor, and you are listening to episode 127 of the Pure Desire Podcast. And with me, as always, is my co host, Nick Stemba.

FA la la la la la la la.

There is a Christmas theme on the podcast.

Yes. You know, I don't know if there's anyone that enjoys Christmas more and shows it less than me, really. I love this time of year, but, like, I don't wear Christmas sweaters. I don't get big into decorating, but I love the Christmas lattes that come out. I love the parties, the food, and the possibility that it could snow. Having grown up in Wyoming and Montana, like a snowy night, there's just something magical about that. So I'm getting pretty excited because I have a hunch that this is going to be a bad winter, which means snow, and I can't wait. So I'm really hopeful.

Okay. Okay.

Well, that makes one of us. We've got a great episode that we'll let you know about just here in a second. But a couple quick things. If you have not subscribed to the podcast, please do so. You can find us on all the major platforms. And look, if you give us a review, it helps us know how we're doing and then also helps other people find the podcast as well. Well, so please do that. That means a lot. And then also follow us on social media, keep up with what we're doing, the stuff that we're pushing, the message that we're moving forward. We're on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram. If you search for us, it's your desire, pdmi. And then also for any of you who do listen to the podcast and want to watch these episodes, you now can watch full episodes on YouTube if you just search Pure Desire Ministries. Last thing before we get into today's episode is as the year is getting closer and closer to the end, we want to encourage the those of us that have experienced freedom and healing to really consider what it might look like for us to give that hope and freedom to other people. And for that reason, we started a giving campaign called Free People. Free People.

Yeah.

We've all heard the idea that hurt people hurt people. That when we're not in touch with our woundedness and our brokenness, we have a way of passing that on to others, that we perpetuate cycles of hurt and woundedness. But on the positive side, that when God brings healing into our lives. We can pass on healing and freedom and joy and peace to others. And that's a big part of the curriculum or the process at Pure Desire is asking one another, how can you pay forward? How can you become a healing instrument as God has brought healing to your life? And just one of the ways that people can do that is by partnering with us, by bringing that message of hope and freedom to people literally all over the world. And so if you would consider listener becoming even a $10 a month giver, the way that would encourage us, partner with us in this mission, and you could help more people find hope and healing in the year 2020.

Yeah. And if you do want to give that to more and more people, just visit PureDesire.org FreePeople all right, so you and I sat down with Bob Vandermeer, who, I mean, don't tell anyone, but he's one of my favorites. Don't tell him. Actually, he's one of my favorites. He's one of our clinicians, one of our speakers, and it's just an amazing dude. And we sat down and really explore this idea of a sobriety mindset versus, like a health or recovery mindset.

Yeah, I think it's a great episode because we do have a lot of people that operate in this arena that have been very familiar with 12 step groups, some AASA kind of stuff, and there's definitely a focus on that. The challenge coin idea, how many days since your last drink mentality that can have some benefit but also can have drawbacks. And I think this episode does create or distinguish a little bit how our approach differs from that, that it's not just about the days since your last relapse, but it's what is happening for health in your life. Maybe even if there's been a relapse or you haven't been able to establish a streak. So I hope it's something listeners can really think through for themselves. We're certainly not in any way trying to put down an AA approach. If you're big into a one year coin idea, that's awesome. We're not trying to say stop that, but I hope to help someone think through how Is there more than just did I or didn't I relapse?

Yeah, absolutely. And Bob's got a lot of good stuff, and I feel like it was a really good, beneficial conversation. So enjoy. Bob, welcome back.

Hey, thanks, guys. Nice to be here.

Nice hat.

Hey, thank you.

I've never worn a hat on the podcast. Now I'm Thinking I should start featuring some of this.

I brought an extra one.

This makes me so happy because if I started wearing hats to work, this would be great. It'd be so great.

Yeah.

Okay, well, this is not what we're talking about. Yeah. Today's episode, it's not a hat episode. It's about what you get to wear to work. You too can come and wear a polo to work at Pure Desire. Okay.

Or hoodie.

Or a hoodie with a blue hat. Those of you that aren't watching it, it's teal. So we are going to be talking about healthy versus sober or health versus sobriety. So let's just start with this. Bob. In the realm of addiction, the goal often is, I think of like aa, just the idea of sobriety, maintaining sobriety, or in other words, no longer acting out in our addiction. So in really what we teach in our perspective is that the goal is sobriety. The goal.

Short answer. It's part of the goal. Do you want the long answer?

Longer answer?

Longer answer, yeah.

The four minute podcast. Yes.

No, no.

Yes. No, no.

Are these open ended questions? Yeah. You know, I think for a lot of people that first approach sobriety, the reason they're approaching it is because something, you know, has come to light. You know, I mean, they've been caught, they've been found out, they've been, you know, fired, whatever it is. And so there's that pressure to stop whatever the behavior is. So I mean, I think early on there's a lot of just thought and time and energy gone into put into not acting out. But no, that's not the goal for us. That's part of it, but it's definitely not the only goal. And so, you know, we're going to talk about this more in these other questions. But there's this, there's this broader scope of what we're really aiming at and that's a challenge changed life. And we see that behavior is symptomatic, whether it's alcohol or sex or whatever. But here with us, we see whatever sexual brokenness or sex addiction as symptomatic of some other thing. So we can't just address the symptom without addressing the rest of it.

Yeah, you know, I'm from Montana and so there's an analogy from that part of the world that always comes to mind for me. And in, in those states, Montana and Wyoming, there are still wild horses that ranchers will go and catch and, you know, try to tame for purposes of actually being able to ride the horse. And I Think about it. That the goal is not just for them to catch the wild horse and put it in a pen and be like, hey, look, we. Now we have four more horses because they're still wild. You can't use them. They're not good for much. So sobriety might be like, hey, I'm. I'm not drinking anymore. I'm not acting out. I'm not watching porn. But if nothing on the inside has changed, you're just penned up, and you're not really a better version of yourself yet. And that's really what I think we're here for, is to say, how do I become a better version of myself? Because I see the behaviors are just the outcome of the deeper stuff. And the invitation to lean into the deeper stuff is the process of that wild horse, you know, becoming tame and disciplined.

Really, it just feels like step one to me. It's just creating that sobriety. And then if any, it's almost like. And this maybe is a. Is a wrong analogy, but maybe not step one, but it's part of laying the foundation for overall health is the idea that sobriety has to be maintained first, and then health can be built on top of it. And even as I'm saying that, obviously health motivates a lot of things in our lives, but I just think that this could be really step one in so many ways.

Yeah. I think there's a lot of guys that are a lot of people that jump into recovery, and sobriety is, like, the only thing they focus on. And if they have a hard time getting to a place where they have significant sobriety or significant length of sobriety, then they feel like they're not making progress. And that's also not true. You know, I mean, there's. Sobriety is something that. That obviously we. We get there by a lot of challenging work that we do. And so, you know, it's. I know a lot of times we'll have clients or people in group where they feel like they feel a lot of shame because they can't get the sobriety they want, and they end up missing the progress that is the result of the hard work that they're putting in.

Totally.

Yeah. I think that's one of the real ironies we're talking about on this podcast, is you can actually be getting healthier even without good sobriety. And on the flip side, you could be very unhealthy, but have sobriety that the two aren't necessarily, you know, equal now. They do tend to go hand in hand that the healthier you get, sobriety is going to come, but there's not always a direct connection and relationship. And so, Bob, along those lines, what are the pitfalls that you see people fall into or maybe the implications if someone just is only approaching their journey through a sobriety mindset?

Mm, yeah, I think a couple of things. One of them is that they fail to or have a challenge seeing the broader scope of what they're trying to do. So let's just say that they're not acting out, but they're still procrastinating. They're still distant from their wife or their kids. They're still, you know, trying to prove that they have value through their job. I mean, all of this, it's like, okay, they're, that's great that they're sober, but then they're still, they're missing the point that that is supposed to be the, in a sense, the gateway to the rest of health, you know, by stopping that one behavior. And so I think that's like, that's one thing for sure. And the other one is that I think that they can also find their own value in the number that sobriety date. And so like that sobriety date represents their own value and success. So they step into a group and they have pride in a sense because they've got more sobriety than the other person.

Performance based.

Absolutely. Yeah.

I think one of the things too that it does is it for me, I was just thinking about where would I be if I was living in this mindset and it's just white knuckling. That's it. Like if I'm trying to maintain sobriety, it's just trying to stop a behavior or keep this behavior at bay. And like for me, white knuckling, eventually you're going to get tired, something's going to happen and like sobriety, it's going to be sketchy because white knuckling and trying really hard and working really hard to try to stop a behavior. For me, I have not had success in that in my life. And so the implication for me is it just sounds exhausting.

Well, and I think it allows us to permit a whole lot of unhealthy behaviors because we can look at that number of, well, hey, I haven't relapsed in X number of days. I'm doing so great. But meanwhile, we're still very angry and self centered and you know, numbing out in a lot of unhealthy ways. There can be a huge cavern of behaviors in our life that still need to be addressed. But because. Because we've got this one that we haven't done well, then we kind of take comfort in that. So it's an invitation, I think, to go beyond that behavior focus. Because if we're just looking at sobriety, we're still focused on behavior, which is actually a big part of what got us into the problem is that we were so focused on our performance or being good enough or meeting some standard that a lot of times, pornography and other forms of sexual brokenness became the back end of what we do when we don't feel good enough, when we're not performing well. And so in a sobriety mindset, we haven't really changed that. We're still just focused on our performance, which is always going to leave us vulnerable to pursuing unhealth or ways of feeling better about ourselves that don't contribute to health.

Yeah, I think there's a little bit too of, like, the end justifying the means with that where, you know, there could be an addict that has significant sobriety, and if someone tries to bring up other things, you know, relational things or anger or whatever else that they can just hang on to. Well, I'm sober, so I'm doing fine.

What do you want from me?

Yeah, yeah. I'm dressed and out of bed. What do you. What else do you want from me? Yeah, so, like. I mean, it's like, okay, well, no, I have. I've got X amount of time of sobriety, so that means that I'm doing well in my recovery, which means I don't really need to address these other things.

Yeah.

So I feel like we're circling this definitely already, but let's just flat out. And some of the language you use for healthy living is also recovery. We talk about that word a lot. So we. What's the difference between recovery or healthy living and sobriety?

Yeah. Yeah. And I think we have been kind of circling the. The bloods in the water already that. Yeah. Like, if. If the goal. If your only goal is sobriety, then you're not. And you're not focused on how this fits into the rest of your life. The trajectory of sanctification, of progress, of all of that, then we're missing the point. So, like, what. What our approach is to dealing with sex addiction is that. Is that we haven't learned to process pain and fear well, and we haven't learned to connect well with other people in intimacy, emotionally, or in our attachment. And so because of that, like this. This addiction is just the symptom of the problem of that we that we don't connect well with others, that we don't trust others, that we're not in these vulnerable, emotional, intimate relationships. And so once we get past sobriety then really what we're saying is now let's work on figuring out the reason why we can't connect with others, why we don't trust other people, why we don't trust authority, fig, you know, all of that. And so yeah, we miss like the long term goal and the long term trajectory of all of this if we just get stuck on sobriety.

Yeah, I think of it from that lens of that our coping behaviors are there because they're ways that we deal with unwanted pain and emotions. And so if we're focused on sobriety, we may just find other ways, maybe more socially acceptable or in our Christian faith, more faith accepted that you know, workaholism over exercising, overeating are much more acceptable but they may be just as rooted in avoiding pain and dealing with unwanted emotions. And so a recovery or health based mindset is to say I want to recognize why I run from difficult things, why I procrastinate hard projects, why I can't have a vulnerable intimate relationship with my spouse. Because those things are all rooted in those negative, difficult emotions. And so health is saying what's driving all this and how can I change that? I can recognize those emotions and then deal with them in healthy ways versus escaping or numbing out.

I think that living in a healthier recovery mindset versus sobriety is really, it's a mentality of pursuit rather than avoidance.

So that's good.

Health is pursuing health in my life. It's not just avoiding a certain behavior, which we talk about that a lot in our ministry. We see that biblically backed up as well. It's not just taking off the old man, it's putting on. So it's not just. And for me I just, I feel like that's where I land. It's a pursuit, not an avoidance. And so that's why recovery or healthy living. To me you're talking about that longevity. That's why it creates that longevity. It's because you're running after something, not running away from something. We're gonna take a break real quick from this conversation and let you know about a brand new resource that we have. Check it out. Alright, Nick, you and I are parents.

We are, we are parents.

We have children, like it or not, we have offspring. And one of the things, and you're a little bit further along in the parenting than I am, but one of the things we're already thinking about with our young kid is how to talk to him about sex. And really, this topic is not an easy one, and it can be mishandled very easily in the home. And so we've got a new book out. Let's talk about it.

Yeah, we're super excited because we find at our events that only 1 to 2% of people grew up in a home that had open, honest conversations about sex. So most of us, we don't really know how to. To do it. And that's why this book, how to talk with your kids about sex, I think, is so key. You know, I read the manuscript and I found myself. I was supposed to be reviewing it as the executive director of Pure desire, but I kept finding. I was just reading it as a dad. I was learning so much. And when I got done with it, not only did I feel grateful that I had read it, but I thought, I wish my parents had had this book. And so for our listeners, if that's any motive for you to think about your kids, you don't want them saying, I wish my parents had read this book. You need to get it and read it and learn how to start a culture of conversation in your home around sex and sexuality.

And it makes a decent Christmas present. So you can go and order it@puredesire.org kids.

So, Bob, we've already talked about this idea a little bit, but it's very common in recovery circles, in groups, whether it's sa, aa, any kind of recovery that people will track days, they'll give coins, you know, the one year mark, even 30 days. Is it helpful to track the days of sobriety? And are there aspects of it that we would affirm and are things that we might want to avoid?

Yeah. Great question. Whoever came up with this question. Great guys. Great guy, huh?

Nice work.

Nice work, guys. Yeah, you know, I've had a couple really interesting conversations about this with people, and one of them, I think it all started out of a conversation with a guy who, he said that the more sobriety he got, the more anxiety he felt.

Yes, I've experienced that.

And so what we, as we were kind of processing through it, what came to light was this concept for a lot of people in recovery that they believe that relapse is inevitable. And because of that, the more sobriety they have, the closer they are to the inevitable relapse. And that there has to be this shift in our thinking that the more sobriety we have, the more health we have. And that relapse is not inevitable in the way they've been thinking about it. And so there's been this weird kind of double bind with it that the more sobriety, the more, you know, anxiety because the closer they are and just the craziness of that. And so I think for those people that like a shift in mindset to say that no, the more sobriety days I have, just the more into health, the more momentum that I have. And. And to kind of even think about that, the pursuing as opposed to avoiding. And so, you know, that I think that's one aspect of it and another idea that we can celebrate these anniversaries. We should. And we've. If we have still so much shame wrapped around our behavior and our past, then it's going to be difficult for us to get a coin. Like, a coin is still going to be shame that I only have X amount of sobriety or, you know, like the anniversary is still going to be shame because it's pointing back to how I used to always. And so I think if our shift in thinking changes in the recovery process, then we can celebrate that stuff and it can be good.

I think too with like that is that we tend to get to the point where if we're keeping track of it, then if we relapse, then it's like, oh, okay, I'm no longer healthy. Now I go have to go back to the starting block and do I.

Have to give the coins back? Or how does that work?

Yeah, so I would agree. I think, I think one of the. And when we go to events and all three of us travel and have gone to events before is that we hear this question a lot. This idea of when do you know that you're free or, you know, how do you know health has happened? And really they're asking the question of how, like, what are the marker, what are the markers on the path to my health that I can look back and be like, ah, yep. See, there is some proof and some traction there. Like, I have seen that you and I had an experience like that. And I've talked about it on the podcast and at events before. In D.C. we had this event. Things weren't going right. I got triggered. And through that experience I learned it's not that I got triggered was like, Cause for me, I think I was in that thinking that I was only healthy if I wasn't getting triggered. When I realized it wasn't that if I got triggered or not, it's how I responded to being triggered. And I pursued health in that moment. And that for me was one of those markers where now I can look back and be like, oh, yep, when we were in dc, I remember this happened and I remember I pursued health. So I think that as long as we understand that reality, that yes, we need markers, but also understand that it's not something that if you have relapsed, it doesn't mean that there hasn't been recovery, your health established in your life.

Yeah, I think it goes back to that bigger conversation we've had. Is, is healing a destination or is it a journey? Because the, the counting days can be kind of destination focused of, oh, I'm healed, I'm better, I'm free, I'm. I'm 80 days free, I'm a year free. I'm too versus this journey of I'm becoming healthier. And I do think it's helpful to be able to look back and see how far we've come. Like you were saying earlier, Bob, the person that could see, even maybe in some relapses, even though they haven't had much sobriety, they can see, man, I've, I've got community I didn't have. I've got self awareness, I didn't have. I'm growing in relationships. And yeah, my behavior hasn't been totally perfect, but I'm seeing progress on this journey. So I think there is something to be said of remembering back. Well, how long has it been since you sought out pornography? And maybe it's been months or year and you can feel some pride in that's. That's a neat amount of time. But not get so hooked into that number as the only thing that matters. Because I do think it creates underneath of it this cavern of secrecy then where we feel like, well, as long as I haven't looked at porn, I've still got my streak alive. All this other garbage is still happening, but I keep that streak alive. And we become so focused on that that that's the destination thinking. So I think it's a. Both end of how can I be aware of progress while still recognizing the goal is to continue moving towards greater and greater health. Sure.

So let's talk about what health looks like on like a daily basis. What is it like for you guys? And if you guys are willing to share some examples too, what is living in recovery or living in health look like?

This kind of goes into the next question too, but I think it's a little bit of just not giving up and not stopping. And so part of the sobriety mindset that is A challenge is that if you have sobriety, then you're good, which means kind of what we referred to earlier. We don't have to continue to work on things. And so if I think that the sobriety in the daily life is just continuing to say, oh, yeah, I, you know, I missed it on that, or I need to be a little bit better on this. Last week yelled at my kids, like, you know, was not. It wasn't like a good, stereotypical dad moment. And so when we were in the car driving someplace, I, you know, I. I pulled over and I told both of them. I was like, you know, guys, like, when I yelled at you earlier, like, that was my fault. That wasn't your fault. Like, it was. Yeah, you weren't listening. You know, you did this and this. But it was my fault that I yelled at you. It was my fault that I got angry at you. And even the irony of that is, earlier in the day, they were playing, and I just, like, I sat down with both of them. I said, I just want you guys to know how much I love you and how much I love being your dad. So then a few hours later, like, I flip out and I'm screaming at him, right? So I even. I call back to that with him, and I said, you know, that's kind of weird that earlier today I told you guys how much I love you and how important you are to me, and then just how. How much I love you, you know, for who you are right now. And then I, like, flipped out and I got angry at you. That doesn't make a lot of sense, does it? And my son Amadeus is like, no, papa, that doesn't make sense. And so just as a personal example, it's like being me, being willing, even though that wasn't fun, to pull over and say, okay, guys, let's talk about this, because that doesn't fit with my health and who I want to be.

Yeah, Yeah.

A couple of things that come to mind for me is just how important community is, you know, So I started this journey of healing and recovery nine, over nine years ago. And I still have a group that I'm in weekly. I have men that I can call. I hope to make a call every day. Now, I'll tell you, I fall far short of that. But that mindset of I'm just proactively going to reach out to guys, tell them how I'm doing, that's huge. And then I also think about that growing awareness of how do I deal with unwanted pain and emotions, emotions and Thoughts that come because they're still there. I still have self doubt about my abilities, about how I'm doing as a dad or a leader, or my work at pure desire. And these negative thoughts that can sit there are the very things that in the past drove me into the addictive behavior. I still have to do work to renew my mind, to be in God's word, to be vulnerable about those things with my wife, to say, man, I don't know what's going on, but here's what I'm feeling. And. And if I've gone, you know, a few days or a week where I haven't heard myself say the words, here's what I'm feeling, I kind of take that now as a red flag of I'm not in a very good space. I'm just dealing with it all myself, which is my old mindset of I'll fix it, I'll figure it out, just power through it. And that's going to put me in danger. That doesn't mean I'm in danger of looking at porn, but that could be one of the many possible outcomes of how I try to fix by myself those negative feelings. So I think that's, for me, the growth is just how am I dealing today with the negative stuff that comes? Because it's going to come in this world, the challenges we have. It's not if it's going to come, it's when it does. What do I do with it?

Yeah, something I've been trying pretty recently, and I just mentioned this on a recent episode as well, is instead of waking up and going right to my phone, I've been waking up and then spending time journaling or praying or reading the Bible, because I found out that when I wake up in the morning, I'm pretty susceptible to what I first exposed myself to, that maybe I have some clarity on some things. But if I rush to kind of distract myself, then I don't really have time to press into what I'm feeling or what the Lord might be saying. And so for me, it's just almost that silence, that solitude, that. Which Harry talked about on a recent podcast as well, just that idea. So I've been trying to press into that. That's just a practical thing for me is, you know, and I was just telling you, even off air before we even got onto this episode, that I've been turning off notifications to try to protect myself from that. And so I think for me, that's something I'm already finding, like little seedlings of fruit in my life. And so I'm pressing into that. I feel like doing things even small and practical can still help with the health and recovery stuff. So. Yeah.

So, Bob, you already alluded to this a little bit because we've been talking about what are the things we do to maintain health, to stay in recovery, you know, to keep growing and progressing. How might we know or self evaluate if I'm getting stuck into an old sobriety mindset or just focusing on, well, hey, at least I haven't acted out? How might we see if we're moving in that direction and becoming maybe a little unhealthy in our thinking?

Yeah.

You wake up and say, I have been sober for 132 days and then.

Go back to sleep.

Yeah.

So one of the things that we look for when people first come to us and say, hey, I think I have an addiction, is we look for a historical pattern of things. And back to the question before this now, and this one is, okay, like, what do we do in a day? Well, maybe you have a horrible day, but that doesn't mean that there isn't a historical pattern of growth and progress. And so, you know, maybe, like, the slipping back into the sobriety mindset, Just because you have a rough day doesn't mean that you're failing. Like, just because you have a rough week doesn't mean that you're failing. And I think we've said this before in a podcast, but when we're 80, we're going to be able to look back on our life and say, man, that was the worst decade of my life. And it was a whole decade that was the worst, you know, and there's times where we don't have grace for ourselves, even if we have a rough day. So just to say that, that, I mean, if you got a rough day, you have a rough day and just say, you know what? I had a really rough day today and try and resume maintenance and get back to health. So I think part of this is like a pattern of it. Like, is there a pattern where you notice, man, I haven't really tried to pursue health in a new way in a while. If. If you've just been coasting for a while and haven't put out some more effort to try and continue to grow and change if you're not taking new risks. Like, if you look back and like, man, I can't think of the last risk I took in relationship or the last risk I took in learning a language or playing an instrument or, you know, like, if you can't see a historical pattern of that. Then I'd say that, okay, you might be kind of reverting to some of that performance mindset.

I think of what you were mentioning to that idea of how am I doing with my emotions? Is anger coming out in other ways? Am I not treating my wife well? Am I freaking out at my kids more often? Because then at that, that for me is talking about. I think what you're starting to really touch on is that idea that if I'm doing those things, that's actually fruit of unhealth in other areas of my life. Maybe I'm still staying sober in one area, but if I. And that I think that's that, that if I'm in the sobriety mindset, well, I'm good over here and I use that sobriety to justify me being maybe an idiot in some other areas of my life. Rather than if you're thinking of healthier recovery mindset, then you're trying to pursue health in all areas of your life because we're holistic in nature. So I think that that for me is how that would show up.

I think for me, and this might seem a little unique when I first say it, but I'll do my best to connect it when I'm all done. But it's when I'm more aware of your faults or my spouse's faults than I am of my own. Because that's a mindset that says, well, my behaviors are good, I'm performing well, I'm doing what I'm supposed to do and I'm noticing what you're not doing, what. And when I say you're in a very general way, not either of you, but it could be, it could be.

One of you when he says it.

Because I think health is that self awareness of I am a person who's in progress, in process, who's learning and growing. And in order to learn and grow, I've got to be aware of what needs growth, what needs to be worked on. And in that humility and vulnerability, just continuing to lean into those things because that's going to make me the best dad and husband and friend and boss I could ever hope to be. But when I get into that old mindset of hey, I'm getting my stuff done, what's wrong with you? It just, I can see right away I've switched back into this arrival kind of idea that, hey, I've arrived, I'm healthy. So I think just for me, that's kind of the check in of whose Faults am I more aware of today, yours or mine? Because if it's yours, I'm probably not going to be doing very well in any of those arenas.

That's really good.

Yeah. I hear in that you saying kind of like ignoring relationship is a good. At least that for me, that's the application is like, ignoring relationship is a sign that I'm slipping back into that sobriety mindset. In other words, if. If. Because I'm doing my little thing over here and pursuing health sobriety, because I'm doing that, I feel like I don't need to put out extra effort in my relationship with my mom.

Right.

You know, like, because she lives in another state. Like, so this is a real example for me. Like, there's times where I realize, man, I haven't been putting out effort with my family. And so for. Even for them to think about their perspective. Oh, wow, that's great. Bob's pursuing health so much that he doesn't ever call us.

Right.

Like, that seems really disconnected. Yeah. Right. Yeah.

I love when you put the counselor hat on. What I hear you saying is, that's good. I like that.

I'm sorry, Mom. I'll try to call you more.

All right, so let's wrap it up with this. How do we maintain life and living in health and in recovery? What does it look like to maintain that for the long haul? Simple question.

Yes. Yes.

That's the answer.

Great.

Yes is the answer.

Yeah.

I think everything that we've been saying. So if you haven't listened to the podcast, rewind to the beginning and start from there. It means not giving up. It means taking new risks. It means staying in community, pursuing relationship. If you're not, I think in your words, if you're not pursuing that health, then our natural tendency is to avoid it. So if you're just. If you're not being intentional, one of the resources we use lists out these steps of change, and the last step that it lists is relapse. And I love that. And it's not saying that relapse is, like, acceptable or wanted, but at the same time, if. And you, I think, touched on this, Trevor, if our approach to relapse is, what can I learn from this? How do I resume maintenance? Then it's part of progress, and it doesn't even have to be like a steps back at all if we deal with it. Well, yeah. And that means following through on your recovery action plan. That means the consequences taking place. You know, I mean, that means all of that. That means knowing that if you're married, that your spouse is going to have a difficult time with it, or if you know you have a job, you might get fired because of it. But that doesn't mean that it still isn't part of progress and moving forward if you do something good with that.

I remember maybe about the end of the year of counseling that I had with the team here that Ted Roberts asked me, he said, you know, what have you found is really the core of this? What's driving your behavior? And at that point, you know, what I was really clear on, and still am, is that at the end of the day, my issues also came out of my need to find my value through performance and my identity and success and that everything else linked back to that. And so when I think of this question of, like, maintaining health and living in that way, it's am I going back to a focus on my behavior? Because there is a problematic behavior that probably got all of us into this journey at the beginning that we wanted to change that problematic behavior. But for everyone, I would say driving all of our behaviors is that deeper core stuff. And so I think that's the question of how do we continue to live in recovery is to stay aware of the core stuff, not just look at the behaviors. Because what I have found now, after nine years of this, is that core struggle is still there. Now I'm experiencing growth and change. But if, for whatever reason, if it's how I'm wired, if it's because I'm a three on the enneagram, that's kind of what I'm susceptible to, is I find my value in performance, and I have to stay aware of that because that creates growth and health in so many ways. If I'm leaning into that versus if I get passive and just say, well, I'm not relapsing, I'm not doing these things, so I'm good, then I'm not going to stay in that healthy mindset of living. So I think that's the key, is just understanding what's driving you, what's the core issue for you? And then asking how am I continuing to work and grow in that area? Because I think that will be a lifelong process for all of us.

Yeah, for me, it just looks like maintaining or pursuing really health in all areas. So for food, that was the thing that for me, as soon as I broke, really started to break free and find freedom in this arena, it was like food, I just went and numbed out there. And so I think if you can look at your life and Evaluate. I mean, to almost take like an MRI of like, where you're at, evaluate where you're at and say, okay, do I have room to grow in this? Okay, here are some small steps I can do to pursue health in this area. And I think that is not sobriety mindset, that's healthy living is when. Because I fall into sobriety mindset a lot. So that idea of just where other areas of your life you can pursue healthy in as well.

Yeah. I think I have one more thought on that is like with this word health, that we are never healthy. We are maybe healthier than we were. Sure. But we are never healthy. And so regardless of whether it's the sobriety or these all these other areas we're talking about, like, we've never arrived and we're done and we're healthy and we're good now. And so if I think if we ever have that mindset, then that's that sobriety mindset. If we ever have the mindset that we are healthy now, as opposed to, like, I'm healthier than I was and I know that I can be healthier right then. Like, it doesn't matter if you're talking about exercise or food or sobriety. Like, you are never healthy, you're healthier than you were, but you're not as healthy. Like, the. The journey's not done yet.

That. That idea of, thank God I'm not who I used to be, but thank God I'm not yet who I will be.

Yeah.

So he's continuing to do a work in me.

Yeah.

Bob, you're awesome. Thanks, man. Appreciate the time.

Nice to be here.

We're not about just creating sobriety and continuing to white knuckle it in life. We're not chasing after behavior modification. What we've talked about today is we're working toward overall health. We hope that you or anyone who understand or will understand that pure desire is here to help create a roadmap for your healing. If you or someone you know is looking for help, go to PureDesire.org and start your healing journey. And if you have subscribed to the podcast, hit that subscribe button. Keep the conversation going. You can write a review and help others find the podcast and never stop being healthy.