128 - Drop Your Shame w/ Ben Bennett

You're listening to the Pure Desire Podcast, your safe place to find hope, healing, and freedom from sexual addiction, betrayal, and relationship issues. Hey, hey, hey. I'm your host, Trevor Windsor, and you are listening to episode 128 of the Pure Desire Podcast. Here with me, as always, is my co host, one of my favorite people, Nicholas J. Stumbo.

I made my family disappear. I made my family disappear.

I got. I got nothing. Also, you just breezed. I told you, you're one of my favorite people and you didn't even say anything.

I have an intro. I rehearse these things. I prepare for it.

Believable.

And the listeners don't have context for why you did that because it doesn't come up till later in this episode.

Yet. Yet they will. I don't know what that's from.

That is from the classic Christmas movie Home Alone. Young Kevin wakes up to find that his family is gone. He thinks. He thinks it's because he's wished them away. And I thought of that one because we're talking about shame today. And I know a lot of people wish they could just wish shame away. Like, totally. I made it go away.

Yes.

And it's not that easy. So that's why we need today's podcast.

Totally. Couple quick things before we get into description. If you are not subscribed to the podcast, do it, don't wait. You can find us on all the major platforms. Give us a review. It helps more people see the podcast. It means a lot to us. Also, you can follow us on social media, on Facebook, Twitter and Instagramureduredesirepdmi. We're also on LinkedIn, but don't judge us because we don't have a lot of content out there yet. And also, you can watch full episodes of these interviews of these podcasts on YouTube. Just search Pure Desire Ministries. Last thing. Real quick, Nick. We're rounding out the year. It's coming. It's coming in hot 2020. And we continue to see how the generosity of other men and women, really, who've experienced freedom creates more opportunity for other people to find that freedom, too. And so for that reason, we started a giving campaign that we're calling Free People. Free people.

Yeah. Playing off the idea that it's hurt people. That hurt people. And when we don't deal with our stuff, there's a way that we perpetuate or pass along hurt and shame. And so, as God redeems our lives, how can we pay it forward? How do we pass on freedom? How do we pass on hope to Others and the reality of this battle that we're in together, of changing culture, of making a difference for integrity and purity in our world. At Pure Desire, we don't have a lack of ideas. We've got them everywhere. We don't have a lack of opportunities. But, but there is a reality. There's a lack of resources, of people and finances to do the things that we feel God's leading us to do. And so we are not shamed or held back to invite people to be a part of that mission with us. And their generosity of a monthly gift or a one time year end gift could really make a difference in helping others encounter freedom both this year and in the years to come.

Yeah. So if you are willing to give financially to help move this message forward, help other people find freedom, go to PureDesire.org freedom free people. Okay man, so we had back to your home alone, back to the idea we're talking about at the beginning. We had one of our buddies on Ben Bennett. Ben Bennett is a speaker, author, contributor, just all around good dude with Josh McDowell Ministry. He was a part of a new initiative called Uprising and we broke down a blog that he wrote not too long ago, breaking down five steps to overcoming shame.

Yeah.

And I think it's crucial for us to talk about this because shame is one of those subtle saboteurs of our lives. It's one of those under the radar things. If we're not really addressing it and becoming more aware of it, it just happens. It functions in the backdrop of our lives. And that's what I love about what Ben brought today, is really helping bring to the surface these thoughts, feelings, emotions, fears, lies that when we become aware of it, we all know that they're there. We can all relate to it. But hopefully today we give some real practical, thought provoking ideas of how to address it and to live more free of shame than we ever have. And I, I think Ben really nailed it today. Brought a lot of great ideas and I know listeners are going to get a ton out of this.

Yeah. So enjoy it. It's a good one. Ben, my friend, thanks for spending time with us, man. Glad you're back.

Hey, thanks for having me. Good to be here.

So you are a good buddy. We really appreciate you being here. You are in Dallas, Texas is where you're located. You're one of the speakers and contributors under the Josh McDowell ministry. Right. For anybody who maybe doesn't know and you recently we've talked about this a little bit and this is the whole reason why we're doing this episode is one of your recent blogs. You dove into five ways to get rid of shame in our lives. And I think that this is something that. Honestly, a topic that you cannot talk about more or you cannot talk about enough is this idea of how do we get rid of shame? So we're gonna talk through those five steps. And so if you trip over your words or don't know what you're talking about, you're the one who wrote these, so that shouldn't happen.

Okay.

Are we good?

We're good.

All right.

That's not shame inducing at all.

That's right. Exactly.

It's like, what a setup, man.

Yeah, Call it out. All right, man. So let's jump in the first step that you talk about in this blog, this idea, and we'll make sure that it's linked in the show notes. The first step is to understand what God says about you. So talk us through that.

Yeah, totally. So just to set this up, I think this is so important to me because for years of my life, I literally thought that I was a worthless sinner. And I was convinced that that's what the Bible taught about me. And of course, I had hurt from other people. I was wounded, which was affecting my view of myself. But on top of that, I had all this spiritual stuff going on, thinking that, well, the Bible actually backs that up, all the stuff people are saying about me. And I knew that God loved me, but I thought he loved me despite my low value. Did you see the difference there? I thought God loved me even though I was worthless. But in a word, I'd say I would sum it up as I believed shame. And y' all are probably familiar, a lot of listeners, probably familiar about how people talk about guilt versus shame. Guilt is I did bad. Shame is I am bad. But I define shame as this belief that something is faulty at the core of my being. This belief that something is faulty at the core of my being. But the Bible has so much to say. God has so much to say about what our value actually is, and that shame doesn't really belong in our. In our life. And as I've been thinking about this the past couple years, I think in the church, we talk a lot about identity in Christ, but we don't talk about intrinsic human value so often. We're talking about, well, identity in Christ. God says I'm this. God says, I'm this as a result of becoming a Christian. But we don't talk about what it means to be made in the image of God, whether or not I'm a Christian, the human value. So just to give a brief synopsis on that, and the way I think about this, Genesis 1:27 says, we're made in the image of God. An awesome statement. You know, unlike plants, unlike animals, unlike the rest of creation, we've been given this rational mind, this infinite value, dignity, the creation was entrusted with. To us, human beings were the pinnacle of God's creation. You know, God created us and said, it is very good in Genesis 1:31. And he didn't take that statement back. You know, in Genesis 3 after the fall of mankind. A lot of times we think he did, but he didn't. Because Even in Genesis 9, 6, it still refers to people being made in the image of God. And although Adam and Eve sinned and sin was passed down to every human being, and I think it was David and. Yeah, and David in Psalm 51:5 says, Surely I was sinful since birth. We know that the results of the fall will pass down to every human being. That doesn't change the fact that we are made in God's image with this, with infinite dignity, with. With value. And I'd say too, I mean, one that's awesome that, that we're made with that kind of value. But we're also. So we have infinite value, but we're also infinitely loved. You know, so often people have quoted John 3:16, and we forget that it says, for God so loved the world that he did all of this. Like love was the motivation. God loved people, the good people, the bad people, if there are any good people. But everybody, Christian or not, God loved them. And then we're also, you know, when. When we become Christians, adopted into God's family. 1st John 3:1. See what kind of love the Father's given to us, that we should be called children of God. And so we are. And how beautiful is that, how loved we are, and the special love the Father has for his kids specifically. And then lastly, I love how God expresses his love to us in Psalm 17:8, where David says this, Keep me as the apple of your eye. Hide me in the shadow of your wings. And I started studying that earlier this year. And the Hebrew word for apple literally means little man. So it's this whole idea of when you stand close enough to somebody, like our eyes aren't close enough right here over this video. But if you're close enough to somebody, you can literally see yourself as this tiny little person in their pupil. And David is saying, that's the kind of love God has for us that we are the object, that you are the object of his affection. You're always in his vision. And God's so powerful and infinite that he can do that for each and every one of us. But we are literally the pupil in his eye. And that's how much he cares for us and loves us.

Yeah, that's such a great story. I remember having one of my sons on my lap when he was about 3 years old. And when you're super close like that, and he looks up at me and says, dad, I can see me in your eyes. That experience for him of like, I'm looking at you, but I still see me. And that is really a beautiful picture of that verse. And I love what you said at the beginning there, Ben, about how we think God loves us in spite of our worthlessness or that we're no good. And I think that's really common. It makes me feel like for many of us, we're stuck in the Jonathan Edwards Puritan, preaching sinners in the hands of an angry God. I. I think I've got the right person there. But that kind of mindset of like that we're just this worthless scum, and it's only by his, you know, infinite mercy that we're even allowed to exist. And there is some truth in the sense that none of us can merit God's love. We're not worthy of his love. But that's a very, very different statement than taking the next step to say I'm unworthy and I'm not valuable. And I think of a sermon I heard from more modern classic preacher Haddon Robinson, and he told this great story about how some things are loved because they're valuable and other things are valuable because they're loved. And I think that's kind of the mindset shift between those two sermons. Do we see ourselves as the sinners in the hands of an angry God? That he loves us in spite of our worthlessness? Or do we see that his love makes us valuable, his love gives us infinite worth, and he's not loving us in spite of our worthlessness, that his love creates worth and value in every single one of us.

And I think what you're saying too, Ben, and I like this a lot, that idea of we are if we're the apple of his eye. There is also a closeness that is implied there, that God is always around and close enough to where that's what we can see. If we were to look into God's eyes, we'd always see the little man the little us there, because he's always near, he's never distancing himself from us. And a lot of that too is wrapped up into that shame. Perspective or ideology is that when I do bad, God needs to distance himself from me because I'm sinful or I'm no longer worthy when I. When in reality we weren't worthy in the first place. Like he chose to bridge that gap with Jesus and then he's now always close and present with us. So I love that imagery. Man, that's really, really good.

Yeah, it's awesome. When we start actually, when we start actually reading what the Bible says, not just taking other people's opinions and how they've, you know, interpreted certain things, but if you read it at face value, we start seeing what God actually says about us. Right?

Yeah. So I think all three of us have heard our friend Dr. Ted Roberts talk about how we need to deal with the trash talking voice of hell that tends to go on in our thinking. And so it's one thing to believe or to hear God say that we're valuable, but it's another step to really internalize that. So your second step, Ben, is all about surrounding yourself with people who will affirm the truth of what God says about you. Unpack for us. Why is that so important?

Yeah. So if, if growing up, we are looking to people's opinions or actions because we as kids, we don't really know any better. We just, we just look at what people are saying, doing, and we interpret that as what our value is. We just can't help it. Especially with our parents or our siblings. We read into these messages and a lot of times, well, I'd like to believe our parents do the best they can. Totally. You know, but as kids, we're still going to get hurt. And no parents are perfect. Yeah. And we just take these messages and kind of run with them. We at times experience conditional acceptance, meaning we're accepted based on the how we perform or the good we do or the kind of grades we get or how well we obey. We often experience rejection or disappointment. And then many of us experience things like abuse and a lot more tragic things. But all of these things communicate as kids growing up what our value is. Yeah. And we think, okay, if I am valued and loved, that people are going to not reject me, they're going to support me, they're going to affirm me, they're going to care about my opinions. But oftentimes we don't, you know, we don't experience all those things. Because we live in this. This world that's. That's fallen. So just as Dr. Ted Roberts has been saying for. For years, we're wounded in relationships. We have to be healed in relationships. So if we add up all those experiences growing up in the chaos of this world and all the times we're hurt in the messages that think about how important it is now as adults to move towards supportive community and having people who really combat those past experiences and help us experience who we actually are. So how do we know who these people are? I mean, it's people who build us up rather than tear us down. It's people who, as Romans 12:15 says, celebrate with you and mourn with you. It's. It's people who point out your strengths. They genuinely care about your life. They don't just, oh, here's. Here's a big one. They don't just tell you your value. They show you your value. That's good. Yep. And that is. That is a big difference. And for me, early on in my healing journey in. I was in the Seven Pillars group, and Dr. Ted Roberts was counseling me. And so many times I was believing lies. I was stuck in double binds. And Dr. Ted and the guys in my group helped me believe the truth about myself. I remember vividly one. One experience. I was at a Subway, not the restaurant. An actual trash. Yeah, an actual Subway. And I was trying to buy. I was trying to use my credit card to buy a ticket. And my sister was there with me, and I was getting frustrated, and she told me something like, you're putting the. The card in wrong. And I didn't snap at her, but I was growing, like, vividly irritable. And, you know, in group that week, lowest point on the faster scale. Oh, I was speeding up or ticked off. Oh, what happened? Well, I was at Subway, not the restaurant. I was at a Subway, and this happened. And Dr. Ted is like, what were you believing about yourself? Ultimately, you're believing that you're inadequate, that you're not good enough. It was a lie that was coming up. I was like, oh, man, you're right. Yeah. Because I was afraid in that moment. Gosh, I'm not smart enough to be able to figure this out. And it all happened in a split second. But they reminded me, no, you're not an idiot. Like, that could happen to anybody. Like, it's just part of life. This is who you are and how much you're loved. And even now, there's one of my best friends. I talk to him every week. And Then throughout the week, we support one another, text one another, and all of that. But at the end of each week, we call one another and just process life and do a deep dive on some stuff. And he shows me my value. I know that I'm not going to be condemned. I'm not going to be judged, that I'm just going to be supportive regardless of how much I got angry that week or whatever. He's just going to encourage me and help me know who God says I am. And that has continued to be so healing. It's. I'm like, in year eight of recovery and living out some of these pure desire principles and still experiencing the healing and life change that happens as I'm living into these. These healthy, safe relationships.

I just. As you were talking, Ben, I was speaking to a couple people last weekend. And I just love when the Holy Spirit teaches you some things just in conversation. And there are times where even I'm talking and something comes out and it's like, that was totally the Spirit, because I have no idea. I've never had that thought in my life before. But was speaking, and there was a high school student there who's on our worship team at church, and she, like, she's gonna cut a record. Like, she's that good. She's incredible. And I saw her, and in the moment, I just felt like I should encourage her and use it as an example. And so I said something to her about how good she is at singing and how she welcomes people to the Lord. And she, like, kind of like, crumbled, you know, she kind of like shoulders in, went down like. And. And in the moment, the Lord's like, press into this. I want you to talk about this. And it just. He gave me clarity. And I said to the group, I was like, look, the reason why she's responding this way is because it's not normal that people say nice things to her and affirm her. And to me, I got this picture of what could life be like if we did that more often, if we encouraged each other, each other and used our words? Because I think that our words are way more powerful than we realize. And so that idea of surrounding yourself with people who can speak truth and life into you, but then also work on becoming that type of person that's speaking reality of God's love for you into existence, into your life and breathing that fresh man, that just fresh outpouring of God's love on you through your words, because we all need it. And maybe it's going to Feel weird and uncomfortable when someone says something nice to you every time they see you, but at the same time, they're speaking truth to you and value to you. And so for me, that's just been thinking. Something I've been thinking through practically, is how do I speak life into other people more and start to create that culture around me? And I think it can be so powerful.

Powerful. Yeah. And per your comment, Trevor, so many times when we get compliments from people, we're like, oh, no, no, that's not me. That's totally God. That's all God. And we forget that, well, God has given you gifts. You didn't mess up when he created you. You're using them. It's you and God. Yeah.

Like partnership.

It's. It's not humble. We think it's humble. Like, no, no, no. It's all God. It's all God. No, no. It's also like Joshua Gall defines humility as seeing yourself as God sees you, no more, no less. And it's fully humble to say thank you. Yeah, I appreciate that. And to know who gave you your gifts and talents.

Yeah. Well, I think that's why this question is so vital, because I see so many Christians that have this huge divide between how they see God and everybody else that on the one hand, they believe that God accepts me. He knows all my garbage and he loves me anyway, and that's awesome. But we think no one else does that. If anyone else knew all my stuff and my garbage, they wouldn't want me around. They'd reject me. They wouldn't be friends with me. And so if that's how we live, that the only being in our world that really gets us and accepts us for who we are is God. It will actually be really hard for us to see ourselves the way God does, because we're still primarily viewing our life through this other side where we feel like all the people around us don't know the real me. And if they did, they would reject me. And so I think we've got to get to a place where there's community around us that echoes the voice of God in our lives. I know for me, that's what my first group experience was like, was realizing that there were actually people who could love me the way God did. Obviously not perfectly. Obviously not to the same level or extreme, but that they could also know all my stuff and still love me. And that actually made God's love real to me for the first time. So I think we have to not only believe what God says about us, but have others that echo that voice and affirm the truth of it so that we actually begin to live out of that place rather than just think, well, yeah, God loves me that way, but he has to. He's God. And when he said God so loved the world, I guess I'm in the world, so he had to include me. And it's just a dangerous place if that's where we're at, where we don't also have people breathing that truth into our lives.

Yeah. So really that leads into the third step that you talk about. And this one, dude, this one's tough. Just practically in my life, I've been trying to address this every single day when I wake up, and it is still so difficult. And it's this idea of stop listening to certain voices. And so let's kind of talk about this. Like, which voices? Really the idea is which voices are the ones you're listening to. So let's talk about that. What are some voices, Ben, that you think we listen to that we gotta stop?

Yeah. Should I send you the dirty dozen?

Please.

List of creatures? Yeah. Later in the podcast, we'll talk about. Because voices can come. So many from so many places. Like, we've got our inner voice of shame. We'll get to that. But I think when it comes to this in my life and what has done. How do I say this may maybe some of the most damage. It's come from certain preachers and spiritual teachers that kind of. Yeah. Boil things down to, you're a worthless sinner that God only tolerates now as a result of. Of the cross. So it's honestly a lot in. In the church today. And that's not just. That's not to blame people. I just realized, you know, for me, this is making my shame worse. And. And I need to listen to people that I think are teaching within accordance to the scripture about the imago dei, the image of God, and. And all of that. And so when it comes to this idea. It was about a year ago, I had the opportunity to sit with Dr. Henry Cloud, and we were just talking about this concept of the image of God and whatnot.

I am so jealous. I'm also upset that you didn't invite me. I'm really disappointed in you, Ben. But it's okay.

Yeah. Sorry about that. Thanks for the shame, bro. But he told me the average sermon outline, three point outline, classic. The average sermon outline is, you're bad, God is good. Try harder. I was like, yes, that is such a accurate articulation of what we hear many Sunday mornings. But I think a better outline would be, God is good, you're being restored, come and be. God is good, you're being restored, come and be. So often we start with Genesis 3 and the fall, and we major on Genesis 3, the fall of mankind, sin, the old man, the flesh, but we forget that it begins with Genesis 1 and 2, the image of God. We're quick to major on our sinnerhood rather than our sainthood. And I've just been thinking, let us not do a disservice to the glory of God by downplaying his creation, by downplaying human value in the image of God seen in people. If we have a low view of the creation, what does that say about our view of the Creator?

Yeah.

And I'm not saying we need to or we. I'm not saying we don't need to talk about our sin or our brokenness or our rebellion against God. That's important. But the gospel is so much greater than just dealing with our sin. I've been kicking around this idea and stay with me because I'll sound heretical for a moment, but the greatest thing Jesus did on the cross was not dealing with our sin. The greatest thing Jesus did on the cross was not dealing with our sin. What was it? It was one, all authority, as we see in Matthew 28, all authority in heaven and on earth being given to God, being given to Jesus because he sat down at the right hand of God. Second, it was making possible a reconciled relationship with the God who created us, restoring what went wrong in Genesis 3. Sin just got in the way. See the difference there? But so often we make. If you ask so many people, what's the greatest thing Jesus did on the cross? Deal with your sin. We downplay one, his glory, and we downplay two, the purpose of why he went to the cross. Sin is still big, it's still serious. God is so holy and other. But there's something greater that Jesus did on the cross. But so many sermons we listen to, Bible studies preachers major on our sin. When God is majoring on what dealing with our sin accomplished, a reconciled relationship with him and his goodness. And so as I've been thinking about this the past couple of years and what I'm intaking, you know, into, into my spiritual life, a big question is, is who you are listening to furthering your shame or is it hindering it? Do you constantly walk away going, man, I just feel so bad, and here are five more ways that I don't have it all together. So now I just need to try and love Jesus but more or I need to serve in church more or read the Bible more or do all these things, or am I walk, walking away going, how good is God and how awesome is it that he loves me and that I am his and that I'm in His family and I'm loved and this is my new identity. So now let me go and live in that identity. And of course we have so many, so many more voices, you know, from friends, from relationships, people in our life, from tv, from music, from, from shows. And those are voices we need to consider what are they telling us and because all of these play into our formation and our beliefs and where we're, where we're ending up in life. So real quick, personally, it was probably sometime in, in high school, honestly I just made a decision not to listen to, to sexually explicit music. And I was addicted to porn back then and trying to quit and all of that, but I just didn't. Like somehow in high school I had this awareness that all of this was playing into like systemic sexism and how we view women and all of that. And it was also triggering to my own thoughts, but it was just kind of like grotesque. So I made this decision. I am not going to allow that voice to come into my life and whatnot. And then also, you know, in 2018, the fastest. I talk about this a lot. The fastest growing genre on Spotify was emo rap. And it's so catchy, but it's so sad and, and some of it is just gets really deep into mental health and is. Some of it's not particularly helpful because it's like, it's like catharsis. It's like venting how you feel and the things you're thinking about doing about like no longer living in this life. And I've had, even though I love the genre so much, I've had to make a conscious decision to cut some of it out or not listen to it that much. Because all of that plays into my formation and the shame in my life and trying to hinder it rather than furthering it.

That's good. One of the voices. And this is something God's been revealing pretty recently. I've been trying to identify the voice of comparison that. And I think there's. It's interesting because I think that comparison, this is how I'd say it. I think shame wears the hat or the clothing of comparison. And also, you know, think of the whole like a wolf in sheep's clothing. It Also looks a lot like a desire to grow. Like, I see something in someone else, and I'm like, man, that's great. I want to have that habit. I want to be like that person or use my gift like this. But really what ends up happening is I press into that, and then shame seeps in, you know, gets into the club of my soul, if you will, and just, like, goes at it, like, party's hard, and makes me start to feel like I'm not as valuable as this person because of, you know, like, Ben, you hang out with Josh McDowell. It's not that I don't love Nick, but, like, Josh McDowell is Josh McDowell, like, right. And there are times where there have been. There have been times where we're talking, we're hanging out, just loving life, and this comparison voice starts to speak in. Well, like, you haven't authored a book. You don't get to, you know, speak on a local or a national, international stage, Things like that. Which in reality, if we're going back to the second one, I need to start calling that out in you and saying you're doing amazing stuff and how awesome it is that God's moving in and through your ministry. Rather than listening to the voice of comparison, like, oh, I must be less gifted, or I'm never going to have a platform that I can use for benefit. Like, there are things like that that are super, super subtle that seep in, and when they do, can just cause destruction and damage in your own heart, in your own gifting and ministry, in your relationships and how you avoid people because you're. You're almost. It's almost like I'm afraid to hang out with people because I know they're better than me, or that's the perspective or posture I take when I'm with them. And so comparison is one that I think I would just encourage people to start pointing that out. Where does comparison come in? Because comparison by itself is not necessarily bad, but when it's shame that cloaks itself like comparison, then that's damaging.

Yeah.

So good.

I think what we're talking about is the key and how external voices have a way of echoing the internal voice. And so if we have an internal voice of shame that's speaking that language, then we interpret everything through that grid and the external voices, even when they're unintended. Because I think that's the challenge, is you can walk away from a good sermon or a good book that really, in and of its own, wasn't shame inducing. But because of our internal dialogue we hear it through a grid of shame even. Just this morning, I happened to see a tweet from Mike Trout, who's the American League MVP this year for baseball. And he was just thanking his fans for a great season. And I looked at his account. He has 2.5 million followers. You know, the guy hits a baseball. Now, granted, he's one of the best.

Players we've ever seen, but, you know.

The internal dialogue for me is all he does is hit a baseball. I'm trying to help change people's lives. I have like 200 followers, and the internal voice is, what's wrong with me? Why can't I be known? Why don't I get hurt? You know, especially as a three on the Enneagram. It's like, shame, shame, shame. I'm not performing well. I'm not achieving, I'm not successful. And if I don't become aware of that voice and go, wait a minute, there's no comparison between a professional baseball player and someone working in a sexual recovery ministry. That's just not even fair. But that can become lodged in our thinking, silly things like that if we're not aware of the internal voice. And that's actually a segue into your fourth point, Ben, which I think is a great one to discuss more that we've got to cut the trash talking voice of shame. So unpack. How do we do that? How do we start to address and then stop that trash talking voice of shame?

You just got to stop it.

Yes, that's what I thought. Okay, next question.

Yeah, moving on.

Next question number five. No, so there was. It was like five. Five years ago or something. I don't know how this came about, but I made a conscious decision to cut the trash talking voice of shame in my life. Because I realized growing up, at some point I was no longer just hearing the voices from other people and fighting those. I started telling them to myself. Yeah, so I was. It was like at that point, I was fighting my own thoughts and other people. Yeah, dude, thoughts. And it was just a lose, lose situation. Totally. And I. I'm not sure. Maybe it was just God in his kindness, but I was able to quit that pretty quickly. And that was as I had, you know, was early on in my recovery journey and had group support and whatnot. Maybe I was just so stoked about what God was doing that he just gave me this ability to stop that. But what I've realized over the years was, although I was able to cut that, consciously cut those negative words and phrases, I was telling Myself, whenever they would come up. I realized now so much and over the past couple years that trash talking voice of shame has been coming up through emotions, through anger, through sadness, through anxiety, through depression. Why? Because the, I realized how often I would start to get sad. And as I looked at the scenarios that I started to feel sad, it was when I had an overwhelming task or I had a speaking engagement. And the sadness coming up was saying, you're not good enough. You're going to, you're going to fail. Yeah. And it was shame coming up through emotions, which was so powerful for me to realize because I thought I was doing a pretty good job, you know, cutting the trash talking voice. But oh my gosh, these emotions coming up all the, all the time. Yeah. And I think something to consider is why do we have negative self talk? And I really think it's about self protection. It's about being safe and the ways we learned how to survive growing up. Because if I, if I crap on myself before somebody else does. Right. Then they can't hurt me. If I beat them to the punch of shaming myself.

Yes.

Then, then I'm already protected. Like, you can't reject me if I reject myself first. So we got to start considering why does this happen in my life to understand its purpose. Because once we understand the why and the purpose, then we can start figuring out how to find healing. And then another thing is that we all have this inner critic. I've been studying this recently, the inner critic in our life. And it's the voice of shame that comes through words, through emotions, et cetera. Ultimately, it tells you that you will not be loved unless you're perfect. That you have to fix yourself to be perfect so that you will be able to be loved. And I'm learning that in my life that comes up not so much through negative thoughts now, but bettering thoughts. And you're kind of hitting on this a couple minutes ago, Trevor, but these bettering thoughts. For example, recently I went to a two day trauma workshop and I've been realizing, okay, I still get stage fright and that sucks because I'm a speaker and that's part of my job. I still get anxious about many different things. I went to this two day trauma workshop and just learning more about trauma and then how trauma stored in the body and whatnot. And at the end of the workshop I was like, okay, here's my plan of how I'm going to move forward and get rid of this trauma. I'm going to do this, this, this, and my friends who are leading it pointed out to me, that's the inner critic. I'm like, oh, my gosh, you're right. It's these bettering thoughts that are saying, once I get there, once I get more healthy, more healed over this, then I will be okay with who I am and be able to love myself and be loved by other people. And that was profound for me. Yeah. Because I'm realizing I'm not okay. Even though I've been, you know, free from porn for six years sober, whatever, I'm still not okay with who I am, where I'm at. And I still need to, because shame is still at play in my life. I'm still growing in accepting and loving who God created me to be and see myself the way he sees me. And even this week, as I've prepped for this, I've been thinking about this question, right? If God, if the God of the universe is okay with where I am at, why am I not? If he's all sovereign, in control, and he. He could have me further or, yeah, further than I am now, and he's okay with it, why am I not? And then the second one is, if Jesus is not even trying to make me perfect in this life on this side of heaven, why the heck am I, you know, if we will not be fully sanctified and holy and righteous and free of sin until the new heavens and new earth, and God could make us perfect in this life, but he's not. He's trying to grow us and mature us and whatnot, but he's not trying to make us perfect here and now. Yeah, why? Why am I trying to do that? So it's what I'm trying to grow in now is being okay with where I'm at and loving and loving myself the way God loves me, which of course I'm never going to be able to do, but see myself the way God sees me and just. And just being okay and being content.

Yeah, I think what you're talking about is so powerful in terms of. Many of us think our shame comes because of the bad behavior in our lives, particularly if we're addicted to porn or having kind of sexual struggles and unwanted behavior. And we think if I were able to deal with this, the shame would go with it. And then we can be, you know, like you said, six years free from pornography. And like, well, wait a minute. I'm still dealing with shame. So the shame, this shame isn't just about my bad behavior. That the shame goes deeper than that into these. These core beliefs, the way I see myself, the way I've learned to see myself, and entering into this process of seeing myself the way God does and of accepting that truth, just like you're talking about that if God sees me as whole and holy through Christ, who am I to think less of myself than God does? There's actually an arrogance to that, that I put myself down in ways that God doesn't. And the more we can realize that, the more we can embrace these truths and walk in them. It does lead to a different place of being from which then behavior comes. Even though we're still imperfect, at least it's coming out of a place. We're not trying to earn that perfection or beat shame because we behave better.

So good.

I just keep thinking, I don't know, for any sports fans out there of Gary Payton, who is one of the greatest defensive basketball players of all time, hall of Famer, great point guard, played for the Seattle SuperSonics, RIP but for any fans out there that have no idea what I'm talking about, the Sonics don't exist anymore. They're the Oklahoma City Thunder. Getting way off topic, but I'm still.

Waiting for the point.

Yeah, yeah. But Gary was known historically as one of the greatest trash talkers in the NBA and the thing. And I've played sports my entire life and so trash talking is definitely a part of that culture. And really what it is, it's trying to get into your head to throw off your game. And so I just am thinking about what if we did. What if we did cut that trash talking voice? We could play the game that we're supposed to play and play the role we're supposed to play with the gifts and talents that we have to offer to the team. So, yeah, so I'm just gonna cut the Gary Payton, shame, trash talking voice out of my life. So, yeah, that's super good. We're gonna take real quick break, actually, in this conversation, this great conversation, and we're gonna let you know about a new resource that we have. We know that this world is a scary place for a parent. Can we agree on that?

Yes.

Okay. So we both know it. And of all the scary topics to talk about with our kids, sex seems to always be at the top of that list. So we're super excited for our newest book by Rodney and Tracy Wright. And it's simply just called how to talk with your kids about sex.

Yeah.

And interesting in the title how important that little word with is.

Yeah.

That it's not about talking to them. And Having that one time birds and the bees talk, but really creating a new conversation, a new culture in our home where we're able to talk about sex and sexuality and be a part of helping our kids form in their thinking and not just think we can fix it all in one talk. So I'm super excited about the book. You know, in my role as director at Pure Desire, I was evaluating whether or not we were going to print it. And so I'm reading the manuscript and I knew the book was good when I continued to find that I wasn't reading it as the director of Pure Desire, I was just reading it as a dad.

Right.

And I was taking notes and thinking about how to build into my kids. And when I was done reading, I thought, I am so glad to have this book as a dad. And I also thought, I really wish my parents had had this book. So if I could say anything to our listeners, it's the kind of book you want to have and the way will really form your thoughts around how do you parent your kids and help them in this area.

Yeah. So if you want to pre order the book and start the new conversation in your Household, go to PureDesire.org kids All right, Ben, this has been super good so far. I mean, I have read this blog and really appreciate it, but it's cool to just flesh these things out for sure. Let's round out the fifth and final step to overcoming shame. You talk about meditating on the truth. I think that meditation truly today is a lost art. So can you talk us through a little bit? What does that mean? To actually and practically meditate on the truth?

Yeah. So I'm convinced that the greatest spiritual warfare, whatever you want to call it, battles that we're up against is one of truth over lies. You know, we saw that in Genesis 3 with the fall. It's like believing lies. We saw that with. With Jesus when he was tempted in the desert by Satan. It's all about identity and lies. And Satan's called the Father of lies. So if we see so much about lies in scripture and how important the truth is, I'm convinced that so much of our hurt, so much of the battles we're fighting, so much of recovery and healing and being whole is about what's going on in our mind with truth over lies. So this, this is where the rubber meets the road, so to speak. Like being intentional with what you are telling yourself and what you're meditating on and what you're dwelling on and what's coming in and how you're setting up your, your mental framework for the day. It was probably several years ago when. So I was. I was going through the outpatient process with Dr. Ted and hearing the way he described prophetic promises and developing like nailing them down and writing them out. And I started thinking about them differently or defining them or going about them in a different way. Same end result, but doing it in a different way. And actually in living free, you know, the curriculum I wrote with y' all for college guys, we explained prophetic promises this way. And I would assume it's. It's different from some of the. How it's explained in some of the other Pure Desire resources. But the way I've gone about it is identify the top three lies or a top lie you believe about yourself from either just life or your trauma or whatever. And a lot of times that's the shame, the shame voice. I'm worthless, I'm not good enough, whatever. And then identify a verse of scripture that's step number two. Identify a verse of scripture that tells you the truth that combats that. One of my favorite ones, First John 3:1, is about being a love child of God. So I'm not who my shame tells me I am. I am what God says I am. I'm a child of God. And then the third step is identifying the time you've experienced that in your life where God showed you that that verse was true. So get that. The same idea of the traditional way we've gone about talking about prophetic promises, but just maybe a more systematized way, way to do it. And for me, doing that, I landed on, yeah, first John 3:1. But this experience I had of going to this in college when I was running away from God, didn't really want anything to do with him. So angry friends kept inviting me to this campus ministry worship night. And I was building relationships with them, they were inviting me to hang out and they just really cared about me and loved me for who I was. And eventually I decided to go and to that worship night and I sat in the back and just wept and felt so loved and accepted and experienced. I would say first John 3:1, so now what I do, when the lies come up or the sadness comes up, the inner critic comes up, I'll go to that, that verse in my mind. But then also visualize the experience of being back at that, that worship night. What did it look like? What did it smell like? What was I feeling in my body? And I'll keep going over that, that truth that I'm a love child of God. And what happens in that moment is it's like there's a shift in me, holistically, in my mind, in my body, to where I start to believe that I'm, I'm not worthless or I don't, or that I'm not going to fail, but I believe this is what's true of me. Yeah. And my emotions change, my heart rate calms down. It's just so powerful how that that shift can, can happen. Another thing is, is meditating on truth. When the inner critic comes up, when the bettering thoughts come up. Just a quick way of saying of talking to yourself, like, no, no, I don't need to do that. Yeah, to be loved. I am loved. This is who I am. Just fighting that, that voice in your head with what is true. And, you know, so much of, of what we've been talking about today in this podcast is, is knowledge of, okay, here's what's true of you. And you know, we can try and build our theology of shame or self image all day long, but we actually grow and overcome shame by experiencing what's true of us in our relationship with God. If that's, if that's meditation or if that's going to prophetic promises, those experiences, those encounters are helping you grow in who you see yourself to be. Or if you're in group appear, desire group or counseling or making phone calls, those experiences of being accepted and loved, that is where all of this knowledge starts getting played out and actually leads to growth and maturity and life change.

I think one thing that is important to identify and correct me if you guys feel differently, but I think that the personal, the prophetic promises, those experiences are always something that happen in community when it happens with other people. Because that for me, that's been true that my experiences when God showed up, it was around community, in relationship. It was never something that I just experienced God in a moment and it changed my life. Or now I can use it as a personal promise. Not that he can't do that. Just my experience has been, it's always been around other people in an experience of community. Would you guys agree with that?

Not 100%.

Good.

Great. This is awesome. I think many people have experiences where they'd say, God met me on a walk, a hike, in my bedroom, in my car, and they were alone. I think both are equally valid.

Got it. Okay, good. I'm glad I brought it up.

I think yours are valid too.

Yeah, I think of. I mean, they all happen in the context of relationships. Right. I think of there's we've got a relationship with God, we've got a relationship with others, and then we've got a relationship with ourselves. So they're all relational for sure. But a lot of mine have to do with this encounter with Jesus, you know, himself and my relationship there.

Yeah, well, and the way I think of it is really the godly use or the right use of our imagination. I think so many men and women have come to fear fantasy because of how it's been sexual in nature. But you think about it, God designed our brain to have the capacity to imagine or fantasize about something that's not real. And why does that have to be a negative thing? What if what we're imagining or fantasizing about in a healthy way is an experience of God speaking that truth into our lives or meditating on a verse and not just thinking about the words, but creating an emotional thought or story that we meet Jesus in some encounter and now we're using imagination that. Is it real? Well, I mean, not really. It's not real. So in that sense, it's fantasy. But it's creating a healthy response of experiencing God's truth and not just thinking about the words, but letting them become a visual, emotional, powerful thing that stirs new thoughts, new beliefs. And if it's something real that we encountered, that's awesome. But I think also when we're reading scripture, we may not have a memory that comes to mind for that particular verse. So just let the Holy Spirit lead you into how does God want me to hear this and see this and feel this truth today?

Yeah. That's so good.

Yeah. So, Ben, do you have any. These are the five that you wrote in your blog. But today for our listeners, do you have any bonus tips about how to overcome shame in their lives?

Yes, bonus tips.

I hope so, otherwise that question would really be pointless.

He's just like, no, no bonus tips. That's it.

Read the blog.

Get out of here.

That's all I got. Yeah, I've got a lot. A phrase I've been kicking around in my mind is we. Is this idea of separating the who from the do, like separating our behavior from our identity. And I've been really diving into shame and self image and whatnot this, this past year and studying what scripture has say about it. And I've been thinking about this thought that once we become Christian, our identity is set. We no longer transform and we no longer change. We. We use that language in the church, though, or just you Know all the time, like I'm changing, I'm transforming. But I'm convinced we don't. Although we will grow and mature, sure, but there's a big difference there. We don't live from this. We don't live for a transformed identity. We live from a transformed identity. Just like the, you know, if you see a pine tree, right, Whether it's a seed in the ground or fully grown or halfway grown, the essence isn't different. It looks like it's transformed or changed, but it's only grown or matured. So the same is true of us.

So good.

That's great.

My identity is, is the same. It's I'm loved, I'm cherished, I'm a son, I'm a daughter. And all of this hustle culture even, yes, much of our, our Christian culture is about trying to better ourselves. It's the inner critic trying to better ourselves, thinking we will be more lovable if we are this or if we're that or if we do that. But that's just, it's so fascinating. That's, that's an ancient idea. That's man made religion teaching that you have to do essentially you have to do these things to be loved by God or others. But I think it's crucial for us to get, because we use this, you know, even in our language, the concepts we use as Christians, we, we think that, here's a common one. We talk so often about becoming more like Jesus, being transformed into the image of Christ. You know, by studying the Bible, by serving in church, by praying, AKA doing. Doing, Doing, Yeah, like we pray this all the time. God, would you change us to be more like Jesus? But here's the thing. Our spiritual activity will never transform our spiritual identity. It's already done. Our identity is set. We're maturing, we're growing, but we're not transforming. We're not, we're not changing. And of course it's our hope. Of course we strive for holiness, we strive to grow, we strive for our behavior to catch up in our hearts, to catch up with what's already true. But so much of this stuff is done and set by Christ. So it, it frees us up to live, to just come and be, to live and for your behavior to line up with who God's already made you to be. Christianity is simply about being, you know, in this chaotic culture of hustle and of doing and of trying to, in the inner critic and trying to better yourself. It's simply about being God's son or his daughter. And that's the invitation to the Christian, to the non Christian, to become who you already are, to become who you already are, who the person God intended for you to be, to be restored to a relationship with him as his son, as his daughter. And I got a couple more things. This is like bonus tips. 6, 7, 8, 9. Because I, I think this is so important. Like, this is. I'm convinced that shame, the battle of shame, is one of the primary battles we're up against in life. This one of truth over lies. God didn't mess up. If you're listening this today, God didn't mess up when he created you. You may be living with this shame voice, thinking you're not good enough, thinking you're not lovable, thinking you can't love someone else as a result of what you've done, what's been done to you. And maybe your view's been influenced by the past, but the person who has the most important opinion of you, Jesus, God has the best opinion of you. You're loved, you're forgiven, you're a son, you're a daughter, you're cherished, you, you have a purpose in this life. And the best way I know how to sum up all of this up is a couple years ago I started thinking about how we so often identify with the old man, the flesh, our fallen nature, rather than the new man, who we are as saints. We're no longer sinners, we're saints. We're saints who sin. But this is our identity. We're saints. And what an amazing earth representation there is one of adoption. And a couple years ago, I had friends who adopted a kid from overseas and I started thinking about the relationship there. These parents weren't going to their kid and saying, aren't you so glad that we took you out of the orphanage? Aren't you so glad? Remember where you came from. Remember you used to be over there and your parents left you but or dropped you off there and we did this. And now they're not comparing, they're just saying, your name has changed, you're one of us. You have a new last name. You have even by law, it's a certificate of a new identity. He's part of the family, fully part of the family. He's living as one of them. Because he is. And there's not just this comparison. They don't keep going back to the orphanage, so to speak, and encouraging him to think about that he's in this new family. So why do we keep going back to the orphanage in our Minds.

You're preaching, man.

I encourage us just to. To stop going back to the orphanage. Like in our. In our sermons, in our messages, in our minds, in our relationships. We're no longer orphans. Why are we dwelling on that so much? How about we live into the truth of who we are and how much we're loved and what our identity actually is and just come and be the stuff. Come and be.

That'll preach that. Yep.

We're just gonna let that sit for a second. All right, Ben, so real quick, man. You. You have earned this. I'm just kidding. You haven't. You're crushing it. We really appreciate this conversation and appreciate your voice. I mean, I think that that is really important for us to hear. It's a great, great analogy. Great imagery on that. So you're a part of a new initiative with Josh McDowell, and it's called Uprising. Is that right?

Mm.

Uprising. So just want to give you an opportunity to talk to people about it. How can they see what you guys are up to?

Yeah. So Uprising, it's this national initiative that we're launching of youth overcoming hurts and struggles and starting to thrive in life. A lot of it has to do with reaching youth and also their parents and youth leaders, equipping them through biblical truth, brain science, to return to overcome different struggles like anxiety, depression, shame, porn use, body image issues, and to return to the life they're created to live. So you can check us out. We haven't launched yet, but we're doing a lot of videos and message development, got books and resources coming out, talks, traveling around, giving trainings to youth leaders, and also speaking to youth groups and doing a lot of exciting stuff. But you can check us out@josh.org uprising and you can stay tuned. We'd love you to be part of this growing movement, because the next generation is experiencing so much, but so much hurt, so much brokenness, but there's so much hope. So. Excited about what? Just as I've gotten to know young people, they really want to change the world, and they're more connected than ever before, and it's an exciting generation to invest in.

We are super excited that you're doing that, and we're honestly just anticipating amazing things. I know amazing things are already happening. Just anticip participating even more. So look, man, we appreciate you, your ministry. You're just a solid dude with a great mustache, and we love having you on the podcast. And, dude, we'll have you back. We'd love to have you back if you're up for it.

Yeah, I'd love to be back. Yeah. Shout out to the the video podcast. Everybody listening. If you haven't seen the video, check it out. For no other reason than to see my bleached hair in my. My mustache that has been making them laugh the entire time.

You are transforming. I know you said we don't transform, but I think you are transforming.

Yeah, absolutely. So, Ben, if people want to keep up with you, how do they follow you? How do they keep up with your. With what you're doing?

Instagram, Ben V. As in Virginia, where I'm originally from, Ben V. Bennett, or Facebook. Same, Same handle. Got a page on there. I would love to connect with you. Yeah, all the stuff I'm regularly posting on there, trying to get out content to help serve people. So.

So we suggest that you do keep up with what Ben is doing and check out josh.org uprising and look, we hope that you or anyone you know understands that Pure desire. This podcast podcast is here to help you create a road map for healing. If you or someone you know is looking for help, go to PureDesire.org and start your healing journey. And if you haven't subscribed to the podcast or have friends who haven't do it, keep up with the conversation. Write a review, share it on social comment. Let us know what you think. Thanks for listening. And never stop being healthy.