132 - New Year, Renewed Relationships

You're listening to the Pure Desire Podcast. Your safe place to find hope, healing and freedom from sexual addiction, betrayal and relationship issues. Happy Tuesday, or whatever day it is to you. I am your host, Trevor Windsor and you are listening to episode 132 of the Pure Desire podcast. This is the second episode of the year 2020. Here you're joining me as always for the last two and a half years.

Nicholas Jstembaugh and Boom Goes the Dynamite.

That's a classic.

Do you know what it's from?

I don't. I know it's classic.

There was some college or university had their regular announcer for basketball games was sick or unable to do the report and so a student filled in and was doing like the play by play highlights of their school. And on one of the three point shots, in a very deadpan, just like, not in an exciting way, just said like and boom goes the dynamite. And that got picked up by ESPN and I think Dan Patrick heard it and they started replaying it over and over cause they thought it was so funny. And now there are several ESPN sportscasters that will occasionally on a basketball game say boom goes the dynamite. And it's some 19 year old kid that just didn't know how to announce sports that came up with this classic phrase.

There's so many good ones too. There's so many good ones. The ones coming to mind, I can't remember his name but he says, fill thy horn with oil and go. I just, I love him. Okay, we're going to get off topic. We could have a whole episode on those because we love those. A couple quick things. Couple quick things before we get into just description of what we did today. First thing, subscribe to the podcast if you're not. We are in year three now of doing the podcast and we're so thankful for all of you who keep up with it, who listen, who watch the episodes and if you're not subscribed, do it. We're on itunes, Google Play, Spotify, Stitcher, all of those. Give us a review, let us know what you think and help other people find the podcast. And then second, you can follow us on social media, keep up with the message and join the conversation on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram. We're earedesirepdmi. You can watch all the full episodes of these on YouTube, just search Pure Desire Ministries. All right, Nick, so we sat down with two of the newer people to staff. Not newer to Pure Desire, but newer to staff. The second episode we've had now with Dan and Jen Howey Dan is now our full time online groups administrator and Jen has just joined us in an admin position and we're really glad to have them on staff. And we talked about a new year, renewed relationships.

Yeah, I think we're trying to look at how do we live intentionally. That's kind of been a theme of a lot of the last couple of podcasts here. Just looking at how life can go by and we look back on a year and go, ah, gosh, I just, I made it through and I did my job and, you know, performed in my roles as a dad or husband or friend or whatever assignment God has in our life. But were we intentional to grow in the things we wanted to? And I think relationships are one of those areas that does get always pushed to the end of, like, oh, yeah, I want to work on that. Oh, yeah, I want to work on that. And so the purpose of this podcast is to just help all of us think, what could I do to be more intentional to grow in those relationships? And Dan and Jen do so great at bringing a realness of vulnerability, talking about their own lives and their relationship and things they've had to learn both the hard way and through their strengths and the things they do well. So I really appreciate hearing from them.

On this and it really was a great conversation. We enjoyed our time and I think there's a lot of really good content in here, so enjoy the episode. Dan and Jen, welcome back. We're glad you're here.

Thank you.

We're so glad we're here too.

Are you?

Yeah, super glad.

So I wish listeners and viewers could be sitting in the room sometimes and hear the conversations that we have.

Do you wish that, though?

Yeah, sometimes there are times where I'm.

Like, well, they might not be listeners after that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, we're gonna stay focused, though. Even though we've had some other conversations this morning, we have entered into 2020. And so new Year, new me, goals, resolutions, rhythms, themes, it becomes like, first on a lot of people's minds, especially starting a new decade. It's just, it's on people's minds and it's fresh. And so today we wanted to dive into relational goals and talk about relationships. So let' with this we have. When we start a new year and we create these resolutions and these rhythms that we want to do, it's really easy to make it stuff that's measurable. Like, I want to make this much money this year or this much sales or lose this much weight or whatever it may be, but I Don't usually hear a lot of goals or rhythms or resolutions that are, hey, I want to have better relationships. So why do you guys think moving into 2020, we need to prioritize relationships in our new year rhythms and goals?

Well, interestingly, when I was thinking about this question, when we talk about the things that are on our mind, it seems like most of the time it's something like it's really difficult working with this person. Or it's, my wife and I have just hit a rough spot. We might talk about the car broke down, but. But we usually fix it and then we don't talk about it again. The things that come up constantly are interpersonal relationships. So unless we're intentional about addressing them, we're going to stick on these. These themes where we're maybe dissatisfied. And it is one of the biggest themes of dissatisfaction that we, that we see or that I hear, yeah, healthy.

Relationships are, you know, critical for healthy living. And without them, you know, circumstances are what they are. But healthy relationships really determine how healthy we live. I think. Anyway, I guess that's up for debate.

But I think what you brought up, even in the question, Trevor, is kind of the point in that relationships tend to have. They're static. They're there. Not that the people are static, but we come home at the end of the day to our spouses and our kids, and they're there. And we don't necessarily look at the measurables of how many pounds did I lose, how much income did I make, that we put our focus on those things. But at the end of the day, we all can see, well, what really mattered was the relationships along the way. And I think we feel it. When in my experience, if things are great at work, that doesn't automatically mean things are going to be great at home. There's not that direct transference versus I have found, when things are great at home, when things are great in my relationships, I can weather just about anything at work and other places. Like, I feel good, things are in a good place, we're going to make it. But there is something about when relationships, as you were saying, Dan, start to be off kilter or aren't right. It doesn't matter what else is good. It can just feel like our whole world is consumed by what's not going well in relationships. And so that speaks to the value of prioritizing relationships and how that does make everything else better because of the people that are with it, that are with us in that journey.

I was just as you're saying, I'm thinking you can lose a bunch of weight but still be a terrible person. And I've been pressing into some spiritual disciplines and trying to figure out what does it look like to become the person I believe God wants me to become. And in last episode we talked about rhythms that help kind of create that. But I just have been thinking about this and recently read basically a statement that spending time on yourself or spiritual disciplines or soul care is really the means or the vehicle that gets you to practicing what it looks like to be a healthy person or to be a godly person in your relationships and day to day life. So it's almost like the work that you do on yourself is prepping for the big game, and the big game is relationships. And so again, I come back to, you could lose £800 in a year, but still not be kind to your wife or to your kids. Like, you can make this much money but still waste it on things that don't actually, actually add value to your life. There's so many things that we can achieve or accomplish without actually having any heart change, which is why I think relationships are so important. Wow. Agreed. Okay, cool.

What else do you want to know? I think you said it all. Good job, guys.

So I think we would all agree that we want to grow in relationships. And I know a lot of listeners would say, yeah, that's. Boy, that's important to me. But how do we actually go about doing that? Because as we're saying to set a goal for weight loss or our health, there's more measurable things. We can kind of say, okay, I'm going to work out this many times or eat this kind of food. But relationships, because it's. People like to just set a goal of, well, I'm going to have. We're at an eight now. We're going to be at a nine in our relationship later. It's not as easy. So what kind of things can we do or what steps do we take to really prioritize relationships and the development of them in our lives?

Well, prioritizing. Well, there's a couple things. One, we talk about prioritizing relationships. We can't do them all, right? There's like, how many people do we know? Right?

Too many.

Too many.

Too many.

Right. Like, even in this room.

Sorry to all my Facebook friends.

Oh, wow, Dan. Okay, that's hurtful.

That's not true.

Well, the relationship, the goal is, you know, we have to focus on a specific relationship as we're working through it. But the goal isn't to neglect relationship, to focus on another. The goal is to have balance in that. And you know, there are some biblical principles that, that the Bible lays out regarding the order of priorities for relationships. You know, God, your marriage, your kids, your parents, you know, and so on. But wasn't interesting something that you said that made me think, I actually, when I put in order the priorities of relationships, I never even considered throwing myself into that. And now that we're in this phase of empty nested and you know, I was, my kid's mom, I'm Dan's wife, I'm, you know, who I am in my career, it never occurred to me to really prioritize my relationship and figuring out who I am. Obviously that incorporates who God says I am totally. I don't know. Something you just said a moment ago made me think, holy smokes. I never even put myself in consideration and prioritizing my relationship with myself. You know what I mean?

That is, that is interesting. I think that that's something that in the church is taught that it's almost, it's almost like it's selfish to focus on yourself. And we talk about it a lot. I mean, self care is important. Emotional health is important. And you can't do that without paying attention to your own body. You know, I had a pastor friend of mine say that your body never lies. And so if you're feeling something or something's going on in your body that you aren't really sure something's going on, like, you have to pay attention to that. And if we don't take care of ourselves and pour into that, into our own relationship with ourselves, if you will, then I think that we'll miss what's there and that really we just continue on in unhealth.

What are some other ways, Dan, that you see we can prioritize relationships?

Well, like Jen was talking about, we often prioritize. Well, there's certainly a hierarchy of who we should prioritize for first. God, obviously, you know, if you're married, our number one relationship is with our wife. So one of the things I've seen and I've done is prioritized like friendships at the expense of my closest relationships. A lot of times, because I take it for granted, like, I'll always be with her, you know, but this, this relationship needs attention right now. So I'm gonna do that. One of the things that I did when I first got into pure desire is I started changing. And so for seven years I'm like, this is awesome. And, and I start working on My relationship with my wife and God, and things are changing. And it naturally led into leading groups, and I start pouring into. To these guys in group. And it was great until I realized I kind of left my kids behind. That was like the one thing that I'm like, I look back and I regret because I prioritized these groups and these other guys, which is great. And I got a lot out of it.

It wasn't a bad thing.

It wasn't a bad thing. But my priorities were a little off. So, you know, it. I have to be mindful of what's important.

Let me press into that a little bit. So when you're prioritizing these relationships, I think it's easy to go, okay, well, if I need to prioritize, like, maybe it's a season where I need to focus more on my kids or what's going on in the relationships in my household and less focused on the people in my friend group or in my community. How do you do that without being a jerk to somebody? And then how do you even communicate that to people in a way that. Because that's where my mind goes. It's like, if I'm hanging out with my friends and it's like, look, I got to take a step back. How do you do that in a good way?

This is actually a really tough question for me because.

Which is why I asked you.

Yeah, I have a great sense of commitment to walking with other people, and that often results in a lot of text messages, a lot of phone calls, a lot of urgency from people. And I have often put people first before I put my marriage, before I've even put my kids as well. And so I. While I say, yeah, I have no problem saying no, I. I really struggle to balance how do I be there for people and. And still be. Keep my priorities, my relational priorities in order. And I will often get from people, oh, you're so busy. You're so busy. Well, yeah, I'm busy because I'm busy being a friend to you, and I'm busy being a friend to you, and I'm busy being a wife to you, and I'm busy being a mom to you, and it often starts to feel like there's not enough of me to go around. So actually, I would love to hear what you guys have to say to this question because it would really speak to me as to balancing that out. So far, what I've done is learn to not take the bait of offense. And I'm not going to be offended by you calling me Busy. And I'm. I need to. To be in okay. In and of myself with what I have to offer and be okay that I can only offer this much, be okay setting my phone down and not answering your urgency, because I'm going to engage in a relationship with my husband right now and have a conversation with him. So for me, that's what I've done so far since moving here. Anyway, I've set my phone aside and I've worked on not making someone else's urgency my urgency. But aside from that, I would love to hear what. What you guys have to say on that subject. That would be.

You know, I remember as a young man in church, hearing a pastor talk about, you know, our priorities. And financially, he says, you know, look at your checkbook register, and that says what your priorities are. Well, anymore. Now, that's our credit card statement or our bank account, because everything's direct. But the point being, you can say you prioritize something, but if you don't see it, it's not really your priority. So if you say God is my number one, but you never tithe or are generous to the church, to what God is doing around the world, well, it's not really your priority. It's just your motive or your desire. And I think that's something we really can apply to relationships that I can say, I value you and our relationship, but if we never spend time together or I never plan time with you, then I'm just saying it's my desire that you be a priority, but I'm not really prioritizing you. And so I think it's looking at our list of, like, really where do I want to invest time and with who and asking am I creating a plan around it? You know, so as a family, I think we do want to be aware, not to discount maybe things that we do naturally as part of our rhythm, you know, so for us, we're in my home, we're all up and getting ready around the same time, and there's time that we're spending together, and we have dinner together every evening. And that takes time and commitment and a plan. But because it's just what we've always done since we first started having kids. It's not hard to do anymore after 15 years that it's like we have dinner together and either my wife or I puts our boys to bed because they're still young enough and they like, you know, that story time and prayer time and song, and that matters too. So I do have to be careful, like, when I look at my calendar that I don't say, oh, I don't spend any time with my family when really every night of the week we're having dinner together and there's conversations. So those kind of things I can look at and say, we're valuing our family. And for my wife and I to have a weekly night where we're either out on a date or just couple time or. It's funny, as we have older kids now just getting to go shopping together, like to actually get some groceries or to go to Target, that can become a date night because it's just the two of us and there's no kids around. And. And when I see that happening regularly actually on my calendar, then I know, okay, I'm prioritizing the relationships. I think where I have to be aware is on the friend side that, hey, I got friends. I got a lot of people I like. We interact here and there. But to have a plan when you've got a busy family and four kids at home, I rarely make a plan. And so I see that as like in 2020, to say, okay, if I say a friend is a priority, do I show it? Do I reach out and say, hey, is there a night we could get together and. And go see a movie or grab a drink or something that we. I know we both enjoy because it's the kind of thing I always want to do. But then I look back on a year and go, gosh, I don't know if we ever really even hung out outside of just the ways I happen to bump into them in life. So I think looking at your calendar and looking at your day to day schedule and say, where in this will I make relationships a priority?

Yeah, did I hear that? You said song. Do you sing to your wife and children?

My children? Yes. Yes.

Not your wife.

I don't sing my wife to bed. That would be very romantic.

Super romantic.

I was just gonna request. Dan, you gotta step it up.

Setting priorities. Something that just recently just. And I'll be brief on this one considering, like, the full cost of my investment in something. So if a friend hits me up and is like, hey, what are you doing tonight? Or like, this literally happened yesterday. Bob Vandermeer, one of our staff members, clinicians here, texted me. He's like, hey, last minute. What do you think? Can we hang out tonight? And what I'm practicing and what I'm really trying to do in 2020 is evaluate. Look at the calendar. Like, where are we at? Evaluate my relationships at home. Where are we at there and then be able to make a decision. And that for me is counting the cost. Like, where are me and my wife at right now? If I'm out another night this week? Like, does that add stress to her? Does that, like, what does that do to my kid? Am I going to be around for bedtime? Like, evaluating the. The effects of it outside of just, oh, that would be fun and I would enjoy it to actually think through that. So that is just for me, practically.

That's good. In Brene Brown's material, you know, she talks about being in the arena and walking into an arena with your set of values. There's been several times where, you know, we've come into the house. This is when our kids were teenagers and the dishes wouldn't be done. And there was. For Dan. I'm going to speak for you for a moment.

I love this.

But for Dan, there was this feeling of disrespect. You didn't do the dishes. You didn't. So I would walk in as a wife. Excuse me. And feel this tension between. I know that my husband's not going to be super happy because the dishes aren't done, but I know that. That the kids don't want to be barked at because the dishes weren't done. And so how do I walk into this arena? Well, in her work, she talks about walking in with your values. And so one of my values is connecting with others or connecting with my kids and with my spouse. And so when I. When I take that, it creates a narrative in my mind that's a little bit healthier than the one that's more reactionary. And so I would walk into the room knowing that my value is connection. I would connect with my kids the best. Hey, how was your day? Hey, what are you watching? What are you reading? Whatever. And then enter into that conversation about the dishes later. So I have found that when I walk into any arena, whether it's deciding whether or not to go out with someone or the arena that I just spoke of or any conversation that I may walk into if I walk in with knowing what my core values are, I can navigate through what I want to communicate a little better than if I were to walk in and try to rescue or codependently rescue the circumstances.

Yeah, apparently my.

Yeah.

Priorities of dishes.

Dan has a lot to work on.

I do.

We all do. Don't feel bad.

I actually, that was. Speaking of relationship, that was kind of a. It was one of those situations that revealed a lot about our relationship because I would Be passive aggressive. She would address it. As you just heard, she was the one who went in and connected with the kids and then brought it up rather than me because it was my issue and I let her deal with it. So that's. Yeah, that was super healthy. So anyway, we had some pretty significant talks about that. And it's not the. We don't handle it the same way now, but it certainly was an eye opener when I look back at it.

Well, and I think you're bringing up a really important dynamic because in our personality profiles, we all have a place. We land on the spectrum between tasks and people. And so for those that have a personality that's just more on the people side, it's easy to connect, engage in relationship and just naturally prioritize because that's kind of what fuels you. Others of us that are a little more on the task side are thinking, I got to get this cleaned up, this organized. I've got this to do list. And when all that's kind of done and in place place, well, then I can go to people. And on either side of the spectrum, I think we have to be aware. The task oriented person, it doesn't mean they don't value people. And the people oriented person, it doesn't necessarily mean they're prioritizing people. They may just be like, I've seen in one of my daughters, she'll be all relational and talking, and you find out actually she's just procrastinating. What she'd rather do is hang out with people, because that's fun. It's not so much that we're important though. It's just we're easier to do than her homework. And so I think wherever we're at on the spectrum, we need to recognize that doesn't define whether or not we're prioritizing relationships. So for me, like, on the task side, I do have to at times take a deep breath and say, you know, connecting with my kids is more important than a clean room or having an organized house. And when I do that, it's a conscious effort to say, this is valuable. This is something meaningful, but only slightly more valuable.

Yeah.

Wow, that's good.

That's good.

Just joking.

So let's say that through the conversation so far, someone's like, okay, relationships, it's obviously something that I need to make a 2020 new rhythm, new goal. But you can't just overhaul. We've already talked about this a little bit. You can't just overhaul all of your relationships and every aspect of every relationship right away. If we did, a lot of different people would be changed very, very quickly.

Right.

Because I don't like that Dan walks in and tells me that the kitchen's not done. I would just, boom, you're done. Changed. Got it. And it's just like that. So with that, where do we start the renewal process? Like, where do we start? We want relationships to change. We can't change everything. So what's the first step, do you guys think, in renewing relationships?

It's a little redundant, but realistically, I have to work on my relationship with Christ first, and it truly does trickle down from there. So prioritizing, that has to be number one. Sometimes that's just a matter of even inviting him into your day and just having that continual conversation with him through the day and inviting him into all that you're processing throughout the day. But then I also know that my relationships with my kids aren't going to be as good if my relationship with my husband isn't solid. But I think it's natural to go to that relationship that isn't working out, which is pretty legitimate, or the one that's requiring a little bit more work, the one that's causing a little bit of chaos, maybe even in your life. And that could be any relationship. So for me, I have a tendency to go, but I'm a fixer, and I want to go toward the one thing that isn't working and make that work. And once that works and that's good, I can push it aside. But there's so much more depth that is required when working on those relationships.

And.

And I have to. I have to question my motive towards those relationships that I am prioritizing. Am I wanting to make it better so that I can move on to the next thing, or is this something that is going to better me and better the relationship and the health of that relationship and the others that are.

Involved in it, because sometimes it's easier to prioritize and to fix or renew relationships outside the home than it is inside the home. Absolutely. And that's like, I can. I can go and squash it with a friend and we're done after 20 minutes. But it's like, maybe you've been having a really difficult conversation over a period of time at home, and that's not like a one and done change. And the irony is, too, as you're talking, I'm thinking, man, if I only go after the relationships outside the home that are challenging right now, I know that for me, the motivation is also prideful. I feel like a bad person. Therefore, I need to fix the ones that need more work so that I can feel less like a terrible person and then can just kind of manage. Right. Like whack a mole, if you will, in some of my relationships. So it's actually selfish motivation that's actually pushing me to that. That's just been my experience.

One of the other things that I've realized is I have two things. I have to be intentional. Like, I have to. I have a bad relationship with this person, so I just want to fix it. So what does that mean, avoiding it? Sometimes it just means avoiding it. And now it's not so bad because I don't interact with or just do more of what I think will help rather than communicating like our relationship may have. May look good for different reasons. Like some people, a good relationship is. Let's talk about your greatest needs, your biggest fears. Tell me about the 10 worst moments of your life, and then we'll talk about number six in depth. And the other person is like, you know, what is a good relationship to me is eating pizza and drinking Sprite. And that's important to both people.

Very, very specific.

Well, I don't know where it came.

From, but that doesn't mean that you pick one or the other. Just because I like talking deep and Jen, like Sprite doesn't mean all we do.

There it is.

Is talk deep.

Yeah, that's why I said Sprite. Got it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, I think that's where I was going with this question, that when I think of how do we be intentional? I think we have to guard against the temptation to do what makes most sense to me, to be intentional about how I want to improve the relationship. And for me, one of the big takeaways of a great series, the Five Love Languages, which talks about our primary desires to be loved through gifts or words of affirmation and quality time or acts of service. And what I took out of that, though the big takeaway was that we tend to love others in the way that we like to be loved.

Absolutely.

So if I feel like I want to show you love, well, my lens or my context is always words and touch. And so I will tend to give to my wife and kids words and touch. Not the time. Not the time.

He's just moving his shoulder away from.

Where he is really uncomfortable. But if I want to be intentional, I need to be able to go to my wife or my kids or friends and really understand what to them feels like friendship, what to them feels like relationship. Because if I'm offering all these encouraging words, but really what my wife is craving is quality time because that's more her lens. I'm not making much gains, really. I mean, she's me like, well, he's sure saying a lot of nice things, but why won't he spend time with me? So in being intentional, I think we've got to go to people and get to know them, ask about what's meaningful to them, what's important, what helps them feel cared for, supported, and like we're growing in our relationship. Because when we hear that from them, then we can be intentional in the right ways and not just kind of randomly trying to be, you know, for a gift giver, just, I give all these gifts and boy, aren't I a great friend. Right? When others are like, oh, well, why did they give me this? You know? So I think just being aware of what will feel like friendship, what will feel like relationship to them, and making sure we prioritize that, yeah, it's good.

What about the relationships that are hurting though? You know, the ones that are harder to navigate, whether it's the marriage relationship or the relationship with your kids or even through the pure desire process, we unpack the family of origin and there's that struggle with the balance of relationship with our parents or even with our friends. I just, I think for, for me, something that someone challenged me with years ago was assuming the best. Unless you know otherwise, assume the best of the person that's sitting in front of you and consider that your reality isn't the only reality that's taking place. That's been really, really difficult for me, especially in relationships that are a little bit harder to navigate. That's been difficult for me because I feel like my reality is the correct reality.

Sure. Oh yeah.

And when I've been hurt, it's really difficult to assume the best about the other person because it doesn't validate what I'm experiencing. So I think regardless of what relationship we're in, those two things have to be key. You know, I think you have to.

Give yourself some time too. Like, I think if relationships need to be renewed, it's not going to happen overnight. And if you want your relationship, if you want you, yourself and your relationships to be better or different, that's going to take a process. And process is not easy. Like, it'd be easy to just hit a button, right? I think of the staples button. That was easy. Like, it's not like that. And so it's the small steps, giving yourself grace and creating new trajectory for. And this, we talked about this last episode. New rhythms. You know, you talk about new rhythms or new things that you want to implement into your life. Take time, give yourself grace as you move into it. Same thing with relationships. It's not going to be like you have two great conversations and then everything's fine. It's probably going to be six months, maybe a year of multiple conversations. I think what's coming to mind right now is like, I think Rodney Wright, Rodney and Tracy Wright, on their recent episode with us, were talking about talking to your kids and they said, don't have a 100. What do they say? Don't have a 100. One time, 100 minute conversation. Have 100 one minute conversations. And it's that whole idea. It's like, I'm in it for the long haul and invest in this relationship. And I think that that's where you see priority kind of come to the top and then also where change will happen. We're going to take a quick break and talk about our online groups. We are now in a new decade. Crazy, right? Crazy. And with this fresh start, this fresh year brings a lot of new opportunities for growth and health in our lives. And Nick, one of the best ways we've both grown in our own sexual health is through group, right?

Yeah.

And so I think what we see is that there are a lot of men and women who have the desire to jump into group and start their healing right now, but they don't have groups in their area. They don't have people at their church who maybe are ready to lead or are willing to even jump in. And so that's why we have created this online platform for people to jump into groups.

Yeah, that's right. You know, my experience in group for the first eight years was as a leader in a local church. And then we moved to the Portland area and there weren't groups in our local church. And so I started leading an online group. And I would say at first I was skeptical because it was like, you know, meeting over the Internet and in video. This is gonna be awkward. It's gonna be weird. And there's always the technology side of it that you got to make sure everyone's videos working in audio and inevitably there's going to be someone's Internet's not working. And. But once you get through that and you're actually all in a video hangout together, I was amazed at how quickly it felt personal. There was connection. And I was able to share my story with other people who understood what I was working on and could share theirs with me. And so that is really my encouragement for anyone listening who hasn't had a group experience yet. There's probably a lot of reasons that you've given or come up with why not to. But I think you will find a healing community beyond what you expected. And so here we are at January, and many of us are motivated to change. We, we've called the holidays the season of relapse because there are all kinds of challenges with vacations and family of origin and being out of our rhythm that maybe right now someone listening is in a place of vulnerability and humility that they haven't always been, that they're looking at their life going, something's got to give, something's got to change. And I think our encouragement would be to say the best thing you could do rather than just buying more books and more, you know, self effort. I'm going to try harder. This is the year I change. If you're not doing it with other people, the likelihood of success is just. It's really, really slim. And so that's why we have these online groups now. I'd love for them to first look and see. Could I engage with something nearby and go in person. But for a lot of people, the answer to that would be there's nothing around me. So that's why we have the online groups and it's a great place to go and really dive into your healing in a new way.

And we have certified pure desire group leaders that will lead you through this roadmap to your healing. They are charged groups for that reason. We're charging 49amonth for people who are struggling and 29amonth for betrayal groups. And we do. We just encourage you to explore this option because this could be the thing that really sets a new trajectory in your life. If you're interested in looking at these online groups, go to groups.puredesire.org now back to the episode.

So I think when it comes to our marriages, it's natural to think about how do we invest in more time there, how do we engage with our kids? But what about those relationships outside of the home? Friendships? How do we engage and be intentional about our friendships, whether we're single or married? What does that look like? Because it's more sporadic than someone that's living in our home with us.

Yeah, yeah, go ahead.

No, you go ahead.

Okay. Groups actually helped me navigate this quite well. I. It was really through the betrayal and beyond groups that I really started to understand not Just the importance, but how to navigate relationships in general. I had a leader that really taught me that it's okay to have conflict and how to navigate that. That wasn't modeled for me. Conflict was to be avoided, and being happy and smiling was what I was supposed to do. So in group, when you're processing things there, there is no avoiding, especially with. With a healthy leader. And my leader showed me that speaking truth and love is a healthy way to navigate a friendship. And it was really in group where I first learned that navigating through conflict can be not just a good thing, but a very healthy and just a very healthy thing. So, yeah, speaking truth and love. And then another thing that she taught me was telling the other person when you're hurt or telling another person how you feel and walking through and giving the other person a chance to respond to how they made you feel. I know these aren't novel concepts, but quite honestly, to some of us, they really are. They really. That wasn't modeled again. And so learning that in group was huge for me, and that was a tool that I was able to take out of group, apply to my marriage and apply to my kids and apply to those around me.

Yeah. Yeah. I think for me, being realistic on what a relationship can or should be, if I want a deep relationship and I keep calling someone or texting them and I get little response or the response that doesn't help grow that relationship, maybe it's time for me to reevaluate what this relationship can be so I can stop trying to invest in it differently or vice versa. If I feel like I'm just being sucked up, maybe it's time to change the way I respond so that I'm.

Not.

Putting a lot of time in places I don't need to be. So really determining what's the right thing for this, should it be a deep relationship? Should it be more of a casual one and then moving towards it.

I think one of the things I've even seen since you guys have both now been. You're both now on staff. And one of the things I've seen with you guys and we've had some conversations, you and I, Dan, where you have wanted to be more intentional about just having conversations and touching base. I think when building relationships, don't just think it has to be like this mountaintop experience where we went out and had the best beer of our life and saw the best movie of our life and the best pizza or Sprite or whatever. Like that's not what it is. But maybe it's just a three minute flyby conversation where you drop in and say, hey, how's it going? Tell me about your day. Have a conversation. Maybe it's not even about the day, maybe it's work related, but there's still some investment in that relationship. And I think that trusting that doing that over time will actually create a better relationship. So I think for me, and I was having conversations with Justin, who's also on staff about, about this, that it's like, it's either we do it or we don't. It's like black or white. Either I'm gonna do this and crush it or I'm not gonna do it. When it's like, well, what I. What we're talking about is like, how do we just do these kind of like, Maybe it's only 70% of what I want to do, but at least it's something that's investing in this rhythm or relationship or whatever it may be. So I think that that's something I respect about you guys. You guys come into my office and just drop in every once in a while or like, hey, what's up? Let's talk, let's chat. And then 10 minutes later we go on about our day and neither of us walk away going, man, that changed my life. But it did change our relationship.

It did. That's good.

I think for me, it's sometimes being honest about where do I want to engage, because I know. And some of this is that personality profile stuff again, that I think some of the three on the Enneagram. There's a contentment with having a solid relationship with a whole lot of people, but not going deep. And so I'm thinking of my own life. The challenge is I've got people I see as friends at church, in my small group and my workplace, in my neighborhood, friends of my kids sporting teams, friends from where we used to live. Because it's only an hour away. It's just like, okay, there's all these people. Any one of, like, there's all these people I could probably text and hey, next week could we get together? And there'd be all these yeses. But if I never do that, if I don't choose any, I find I can go, you know, a month at a time. And I've not really engaged with anyone outside of that routine. And so it's. It's making some decisions. And I think some of this is prayerfully just saying, lord, where. Where is there a friendship I should lean into because it's good for me? Or I know it's good for them, or I just. I sense this is one I want to develop. Because you can't be everything to everyone. And I know I struggle with that. But sometimes in that being everyone, everything to everyone, you don't do anything intentional because everything's good. Like, there's a lot of good relationships I have, but would I say any of them have really gotten a focus or attention lately outside of my family? Not really. And so that's something I'm looking at with friendship. Knowing that it's a value, knowing that God's put great people in my life. It's kind of saying, well, where do I want to go deeper? And then listening to some of those promptings where the spirit brings a name or a person and saying, you know what? I'm going to go for it. Just a quick example from my life that was one of my prayers this year, was saying, God, I want to. I'd love to have a sense that I'm helping mentor someone. I don't even know who that is, but would you just show me? And it's one of those things where, like, within the week, at my small group, a guy that I really have enjoyed hanging around is like, I just really feel like I need a mentor. And. And I didn't even know if he saw me as a mentor, but I just said, all right, Lord, I'm going to be obedient to that, and reached out and just said, hey, would you like to meet a few times a month and talk about what we're learning from the Lord and what we're reading and how things are going in our marriage? And he's like, that'd be great. And so we've started doing that, and I think in the past, it's the kind of opportunity I would have just gone, well, maybe he'll want me as a mentor. I hope he finds a mentor and let it go. But it's like, well, I'm looking for that. He's asking for that. Let's see if there's a connection. And it's been really, really. It's been really a good thing in my life. So I think it's. It's those kind of promptings of, Lord, what. What do I sense I need? Where am I lacking? And then looking at, where are those opportunities available? And then having the courage to go for it.

That's good.

Super good. Okay, so let's wrap up the episode with this question. Communication is, I think, one of the biggest things in relationship. You can, if you're married, you can have so much sex, but zero conversation and have no intimacy. Like. And so I think that whether you're single, married, whatever your relationship dynamic looks like in your life, communication is a big deal. And so, as we're moving into 2020, this idea of renewing our relationships, finding growth and healing in those relationships, what are some tips you guys have on how to better our communication with others?

I think food is perfect.

Like, around food. Yeah, yeah. Around pizza and Sprite.

Just around pizza.

Sprite socially.

You know, the funny thing about that is Dan and I just celebrated a recent milestone, and we had pizza. We didn't have Sprite.

We didn't.

But. But there is something about gathering around food. It is. It's sort of a safe place to gather, if you will.

Yeah.

Did I interrupt you?

No, go right ahead.

Great communication, guys.

Yeah, thanks. Thanks so much. Actually, the funny thing is, before we started the pure desire process, I really thought I was a fantastic communicator. There might have been a little bit of pride there.

You communicated.

I'm sure I did. But the realization is there's a big difference between communication and healthy communication. So as I've committed to working on my own healing and pursuing my own healing, I've started to recognize the areas that I communicate, communicate effectively and in a healthy way in areas that I actually really, really don't. Some of that honestly even starts with the. My. The narrative in my own mind about what's taking place between me and the individual in front of me, but something that Dan and I have found incredibly effective. And I actually kind of touched on this when we met the other day, that through the pure desire process, and this can be out, you know, not just with your marriage, but with your friends as well. When building a deep, rich relationship, risking and vulnerability and transparency are a part of that process. But what Dan and I discovered through this process is that my version of risking and my version of vulnerability were very different than his. So he'd share things with me, and I'm like, I just want you to be vulnerable. I mean, can't you just risk. Be vulnerable? Come on. He's like, I did. I'm like, when? When did you do that? I don't. He's like, well, what I said the other day, I'm like. And in my head, I'm like, that wasn't risking. That was just. That was like the minimum requirement, you know? And I don't say that out loud, but it's definitely in my head, like, how is that risking? So we came up with an agreement that when the other person was going to risk, we would actually preface what we were saying with this is risky for me. And what the requirement was for the other person receiving the information was, I'm going to put on a heart of receiving. I'm going to receive what you have as risk for you. Despite whether or not I agree that this is actually risky, it is risky for you. So we actually started that in our marriage a few years ago, and it has transformed our relationship because it requires me to put down my being right or what I perceive to be right. And it requires me to receive the reality that my husband is experiencing and receive the fact that this is risky for him. And that, like I said, can happen in any relationship. Um, we've used it with our kids. Hey, I'm risking here. Um, I'm asking you this question and I'm not receiving an answer. And, oh, well, mom, that's not what I meant. And so it really opens the doors to hearing the other person's heart and really considering the effort there that they're actually putting forth. He's actually putting effort, effort forth. And I, I need to consider that, that that is a gift that he's giving me that I need to be open to receiving.

It's changed a lot of the way we talk. One of the other things that I tend to do is with communication is I tend to fixate on one thing, whether it one of two things. Communicating me or trying to understand and what's being communicated to me from the other person. And I'll make assumptions either way. Either if I'm trying to communicate something, I'll just keep hammering it from different angles until, you know, obviously, I think you understand. Yeah, this is true. And honestly, it's like you're never gonna get it. I can't tell it any different.

That's why Dan has called me six months.

Right?

Right.

Or with.

If someone's trying to tell me something, you know, dissecting it and thinking about it so much that I lose the context or the actual person that's trying to communicate rather than engaging. And rather than having a back and forth conversation, I tend to come at it from a, let's figure it out here or there.

I tend to be the same way. And that's why listening for me, like, if I go into a conversation or communicating, prioritizing, listening over, communicating my own stuff, whatever that may be, I always tend to walk out with more understanding and more clarity. And I feel like the relationship, it just goes better when I talk Less like. And anybody who knows me, you know, in my real life, whatever that means, like, if you know me, you know, talking, I've got no problem with that. But when I listen, that changes my heart, posture, that changes the conversations. And the relationships that I listen better tend to just be the better relationships I have.

What's interesting about that is I'm the other side of the coin. I'll listen all day long, but not communicate and get really frustrated that you didn't, like, respond the way that I was thinking as you were communicating. So I guess the lesson is do what is less natural for you.

Well, that's what I was thinking about as you guys were sharing. Just, there has to be a balance to that, because I realize I live a lot in my own head. I mean, just constantly thinking and planning and strategizing and piecing together. And I get to points where like, oh, okay, it all makes sense to me. And then I have a plan, and I'm kind of operating based on that plan. And then we'll run into this all the time in our marriage. My wife is totally unaware of the plan or why. It all makes sense to me. And so to her, it's all, like, new information. And part of it is, I think, a little bit like you, Dan. I wait for to be asked. I wait for it to be drawn out of me. I wait for, well, if they want to know, they'll ask. And if they don't ask, then I feel like, well, maybe I'm not important or they don't value me, and so I'll just not share anything. And so I'm trying to get into a practice. Like when I get home and I'm doing dishes and my wife is there hanging out, just like, well, what's on my mind right now? I'm just going to start talking about it.

Can I just.

Which is hard for me sometimes, because I'd rather not. It is a risk. I'd rather just kind of keep it in my head. Be like, hey, here's something going on at work. Here's what I think about it. And not necessarily needing her to fix it or have even a comment, but just getting out all the stuff I'm thinking about.

I just want to say amen to that. As a receiver of that. I just. Yes, more of that, please.

Yeah, of sharing what we're thinking.

Yeah, just share what's on your mind. Let us in.

I mean, as long as you understand. Because I'm the opposite. I'm always sharing what's on my mind. And that can be overwhelming.

So again, that balance is what you said, Dan. If what we do, we've got to be aware of what comes naturally to us and what doesn't. So if we realize we're just a natural talker and over sharer, we've got to be the one that starts to say, hey, how are you feeling? What's going on in your world? What do you want to share? Or vice versa, if that's what we always tend to do. Hey, how are you? What happened in your day? But we don't really volunteer our life until we're asked. We've got to be more intentional just to start bringing things up.

Yeah, that was the first coping mechanism I've recognized in this process, was that I only asked questions because I didn't want to share anything. And that was, that was a way to protect myself. If I could get you talking, I never had to share anything.

Good to know. Good to know.

It's really good. Yeah, me too.

Tell me about.

So tell me why you're asking me questions. You guys are awesome. Thank you for being here. Thanks for your time. Enjoyed it and really cool.

Thank you.

We, we really do believe that 2020 is going to be a year of renewal for so many people. And relationships are a place where that can and should happen. New rhythms, new practices in our daily lives can definitely bring about major change and growth. We hope that today's conversation will help inspire you to prioritize relationships and really the growth of them in the coming year. We also hope that you or anyone you know understands that pure desire is here to help create a roadmap for your healing. If you or someone you know is looking for help, just go to our website, PureDesire.org and you can start your healing journey. And if you haven't subscribed to the podcast, do it. It's free, we promise. And if you could write a review, that would help us a lot too. And lastly, never stop being healthy.