134 - New Year, Renewed Freedom

You're listening to the Pure Desire Podcast, your safe place to find hope, healing, and freedom from sexual addiction, betrayal, and relationship issues. Hello again, people. I'm your host, Trevor Windsor, and you are listening to episode 134 of the Pure Desire podcast. Here, joining me as always, my co host, Nick Stummo.

They are who we thought they are. You want to crown them, Crown them.

Hold on, let me just grab all the, like, glassware that's on the table. Goodness gracious.

It's a Friday. We're excited. We're fired up. And it's football playoff season. So I thought an old microphone quote from Denny Green, right? Former Vikings, former Cardinals coach just could get us in the playoffs mood this morning.

Yeah. Now we need a new table. Okay, so today we're finishing up our New Year's series. But before we jump in, a couple quick things. Things if you are not subscribed to the podcast, do it, don't wait. You can find us all on all on the major platforms. Give us a review. Helps people see. The podcast means a lot to us. And also you can follow us on social media, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram. Just search us earedesirepdmi. And then also we'll have video content up on YouTube as well. Just search Pure Desire Ministries. Okay, so I'll now open it up. We talked. We really. We wrapped our New Year's series today. And so please explain to the listeners and me why you had such an aggressive intro.

Well, I didn't even think of it really, until just now. I thought of football and thought that was a great quote. But for those who know that story, Denny Green was coaching the Arizona Cardinals, and that year they played the Chicago Bears. And Rich is going to talk about Chicago, so it's a good tie into that, too. But that year, Chicago had a really good team, but they had some holes that hadn't been exposed yet. And Arizona was a much lesser team. Really bad record, and they nearly beat them. But in that game, they exposed a lot of these weaknesses that the Bears had managed to kind of hide from other teams. And that's what I think of in today's episode as we talk about renewed health and just how do we stay in. It is in some ways we might be like that Chicago Bears team that things are looking good. We've made some progress, in a sense, in life. We feel like we have a winning record, but we still have weaknesses. We still have areas that need to be addressed. And we can either wait until those get exposed in maybe a difficult way, or we can Address them now. And so I think that's what this episode is about, is just to say wherever you're at in your healing. And this episode is for women, too. It's not just a football episode. I promise to realize we all have areas that we want to continue to grow in, and that doesn't invalidate the progress we've made.

Sure.

But if we stay blind to those things or act like they're not there, they're going to come back to bite us. So I hope that's what a listener gets out of today, is just how do I address, no matter how healthy I think, how grateful I am for what's going on in my life, to just allow God to keep working in those areas that he wants to bring growth in.

Yeah. We sat down with Rich Moore, our men's International Groups coordinator, and we talked more freedom. Enjoy the episode.

Rich.

Welcome back, friend.

Great to be here.

We're glad that you're here. I mean, you didn't travel very far. You're just literally like a couple rooms overlocked around the corner in the big open space that is no longer open. Okay, so we are finishing up January now of the new year of 2020. And we're still in this season probably until February 1st, probably we're still in this season of New Year, New me, New Year's resolutions, all that sort of stuff. And really, like I said, February 1st, and this is sad. Most New Year's resolutions or goals tend to fall off around February 1st. Now, one area we don't want to see people give up on or see a drop off in their goal is their freedom, their sexual integrity, their freedom from porn and sexual addiction. And so we want to talk through really how to make the year 2020 a way to renew that freedom. Maybe we've had it for a long time, maybe we just are experiencing it. Either way, we want this year to be one of renewed freedom, just renewal there. So something that we say a lot on this podcast in our material is that it takes really two to five years to get really fully free. Why is that? Why does it take that long?

Yeah, great question. I get it all the time, probably every day. And it really comes down to it just takes time. It takes time. We got, you know, we talk about renewing our mind. So it takes time to do that. It takes time to heal from our past trauma, takes time to forgive those who have hurt us, or it takes time for us to forgive ourselves. Right. So it's just a process. It's a daily process with Victories every day. And it's, you know, we've treated our addiction like a full time job for years. So you can't expect to get through this in 12 weeks, 10 weeks, whatever it is. It's a, it's a process and it's, it's going to take some time and you're going to get out of it what you put into it. You know, I always tell guys, if you put the same amount of effort you put into group as you do your addiction, you're going to see some great changes. So it is a process. And, and I always tell some guys, you know, like when you have a cinder block that is, it's super solid. That's what happens when, with our brain, so to speak. It's like, you know, when we've been in addiction, it's just full of junk. So then you got to take this screwdriver and then you're like chiseling away and you're trying to create new paths.

Good.

And it's not easy. So there's fragments and you got to repair those ones. And so there's, it's just a constant remodel.

It's great.

Well, you think about the number of things that we work on in our world that we accept that it's a process, you know, so we, we send young people to college for four years and you wonder like, where did they come up with that time frame? Because why not just give them one class in four months?

Or why not be in a lot less debt if it was less than four years?

Or you know, why isn't it 12 years? You know, why is it only dol doctors that go 12? Right. We, we have determined as a society that there are things that, that take time. And even if in the first year or two, like in college, for example, someone has a really good grasp on English or history or whatever their major is going to be. We don't just say, oh well, you're good to go off, off on your way. We, we recognize there are still new things to learn. There are higher levels of classes to take that are really going to build in so that by the time they're done, they're, they're really proficient in this area and not just kind of given a quick overview. And I think when it comes to, you know, this area of our health and sexual integrity, we still can fall into a behavior mindset that we just want to say, well, if the behavior stopped, I'm good to go. Right. Where we maybe miss the good that comes of those higher levels. Of learning, of having things that we are trained in and able then to even pass on to others. And I think of professions like plumbers and electricians and firefighters, they go through a process of both class learning, on the job training, apprenticeship, and then even a time period of like, okay, can you do this before we officially kind of stamp you with that journeyman? And you know, then it's like you got your real, you've arrived as a plumber, electrician. And I think in sexual integrity there is some of that as well. Like there's the class learning, but there's also kind of that on the job training of how are my relationships doing? How am I doing over a holiday? Like we've just come through, did, did I relapse back into these old patterns and develop things that now I've got to work on again, or was I able to go through that in a healthy way? And that's kind of like an apprenticeship idea. So that's for me, what I look at is there's a lot of layers to this. And the other one that we talk about a lot, especially in the two to five year time frame, is our relationships. If we've been particularly in a marriage where trust, intimacy, a sense of really being bonded together has been deeply broken and fractured, that doesn't change quickly. I've described that in my groups for men to say, you know, when your addiction was found out or when she stumbled across whatever she did that kind of brought all this to light, it was kind of like you threw a stick of dynamite into your brick home and just blew it up. And now there's bricks lying all over. And in this process of change, we're walking over and taking a brick and putting it back in the wall and then getting another brick and put. And it is a lot slower, but it's kind of speaks to the level of damage that happens in our trust and relationship. So that two to five year process is a lot about getting to a place of health with other people. Because even if our behavior may be changed quickly, establishing that trust and really being healthy as a couple is probably in that two to three year window where a lot of couples will say, wow, we're really seeing health, we're really seeing things stabilized. We feel like we're in a different place. And so just taking that long view and, and being committed to it really, I think has, has benefits.

My father in law just had shoulder surgery and surgery 10 times. Yeah, I don't want to. And it's early, I don't want to do that. But you have surgery where you're under the knife. And I think that part of this journey is also that kind of doing surgery on the soul, if you will. But then there's also this period of time where you're going to be in a lot of pain and things are going to have to heal over time before you can use. Before he could use his shoulder the way it's supposed to be used. And I. So like, for me, just. That's the visual I get too, like building a house or rebuilding brick by brick. But also you're giving yourself time to reset the bone, maybe, or really reset your soul or the brokenness that you have, and then give that time for recovery. Because if you started to use that shoulder the day after surgery, bro, you're going to have to go back in for surgery again probably the next week. And so just that idea. And I like what you said, basically, the long game, keep that in mind.

Well, I really like that metaphor because we probably all know people that had surgery and then they were prescribed physical therapy, but they skipped out on it. They didn't fulfill the, you know, kind of the whole process. And so they can say, well, I'm not in pain anymore, but they've got, you know, they've got a funny hitch in their shoulder or it doesn't go up as high as it should or. And they say, well, yeah, I kind of. I didn't feel. Finish the process. And I think we see that in recovery where people could say, well, yeah, I'm not relapsing, I'm not looking at porn. I'm not destroying my relationship anymore. But there's still a hitch in their step in their relationship. It didn't really get all the way through to health. And I think that's what we're trying to address today is, hey, if you're making strides and some of the pain is gone, that's great. But that also can take away some of our motivation because we're like, well, I think I'm okay. I'll just skip the rest of the stuff. And we're here to say there's so much good that comes. Yeah, some weeks, just like physical therapy, it can feel like hard work. It can be painful. It could be tempting to say, ah, beg it. I don't need this. But if we have that view of what we're headed towards, then we can keep after it.

Yeah, absolutely.

So we've touched on this a little bit about a process of change and renewal and the layers that there are to that so, you know, Trevor, talk a little bit about maybe what are some of those layers in this process to being sexually healthy.

So I really just mapped out three as I was thinking through this, that it first comes with awareness that there's a problem. And part of that too is then becoming aware of what's motivating the problem or the behavior that you want to change. And then I'm thinking back to an old episode a few episodes ago that we did with Bob Vandermeer on health versus sobriety. The second layer for me then is sobriety, the stopping of the behavior of which is what you were just mentioning, that idea of like, okay, I've stopped it. I stopped acting out sexually or pursuing these unhealthy behaviors. And that I think is one of those layers of sexual integrity and sexual health. But then really the next layer is long lasting, lifelong health. Where. And this is something kind of, as I was thinking through it, I felt like the Lord kind of gave me just this phrase, it's more about what you pursue rather than what you avoid. And so I think that that's that last layer of health where it's something I'm pursuing rather than something I'm trying to stop doing. So I think that's sobriety. You're stopping the action that you don't want to do. And then health is actually pursuing things in place of that which we know neurobiologically is how our brain and our body works. So, yeah, those for me are the layers. But do you guys have any you'd add or how do you guys think about that question?

No, I think those three are great. I like the first one. Awareness. I think what happens is as guys become. Especially with guys.

Yeah. Because both men and women struggle with this. Yeah.

The guys literally refuse to go to the wound. So they may not even be aware that they're struggling just because they've struggled for so long. So if they can't get past that, they're not going to. They'll never experience the other two. So for. So in guys in group, when I'm working with that is. The key is. Is really focusing on. Is to get them aware of where it started, why they're doing what they're doing. And then the other stuff just kind of falls in place. But for a long time. And we go back to the two to five year process. Some guys, it takes them a good year or two really, before they even become aware of why and how and where it started. And that can be, gosh, for a lot of guys they'll just never get there, and they'll struggle their whole lives because they just literally refuse. I don't want to deal with any of that trauma or, you know, I think it's more prevalent in guys because it's the macho thing to say, oh, I'm good. And I just. And I'm just totally gonna go back and work on it.

Yeah.

So. Yep.

I think a layer that I would add is what we talk about a lot in terms of paying it forward, or what does it look like that I now begin to take what God has done in me and see how can he use it through me. One of the ideas that just came to my mind as we were talking is a concept of, in a society, our need for elders. And I use that word not like in the liturgical sense of the spiritual people that lead the church, but just maybe more the Old Testament kind of biblical sense of these people in the town that were just looked to for their wisdom, for their input, and that really kind of guided and guarded the culture of the people they were in. And if we're ever in a day and age that our society, and Christian society specifically, needs, elders in terms of men and women that can speak from a place of sexual health and freedom, are able to be vulnerable and real about their weaknesses and mistakes they've made in the past because they've come out of the shame of it, and they're able to speak new life and hope into this area that is so crucial. And so for some people, paying it forward means leading a group. It means taking other people through this process. But I think for everyone, it means in some way or form, we need to become one of those village elders, people that can speak into this area. Because something else we brought up all the time on this podcast is how this is such a taboo topic in the church, in homes. And in some ways, we're seeing that shift simply because the prevalence of the problem is unavoidable. But that doesn't necessarily mean we've become good at a culture of conversation and health. I think people are talking about it more just like, oh, my goodness, did you hear what happened? Or, what's that on your phone? And it's being brought up more out of the urgency of bad behavior. But to have that elder idea of just people that are saying it's okay for us to talk about our sexuality, to talk about how God made us, and to see that urges and desires aren't a part of being sinful, they're a part of being human and how do we manage those? And I think that's so crucial for us moving forward that we have that culture in the church of older men and women. I don't mean older, like in their 60s. I just mean who are in their adult years who are now leading the way. And now the young generation can see, oh, this is what health looks like. This is what freedom looks like, because people are talking about it, they're sharing about it. In fact, I would close with this question with this thought. Like, if you haven't shared your story of healing, if you haven't been able to in some way start speaking about the freedom you're finding, even if you've had freedom, but you've never really told anyone other than the people in your group and in your immediate family, there is a part of your healing that is yet to be experienced. Because something happens as you move into that role that I really think does a lot of good in us as well.

Yeah, one thing I would. I'd say the word that came to mind is just seasoned. Like, you're a seasoned person who's had a lot of experience. I think that for me, this is a huge area of insecurity for me. I mean, I'm in my young 30s, and I think there are times when I walk into a room or am having a conversation with someone that's older than me, and I think, oh, I'm. I can't be the seasoned person in this context just because of age. But I would encourage anybody out there who's in that situation, who's experienced healing in this area, that if you have that experience, you can share that. You have the authority of your experience and can share that confidently and trust that God can still use that and use you. Regardless. If you're young in life, if you're still seasoned in this area, God can still use that for some.

Sure, yeah. We talk about growth, and the next question is, once we've been through a group a few times, we've led some groups, have a good grasp on the sexual health, what does it look like to continue that growth?

For me, this question comes down a lot to what season of life we're in and being willing to look around and say, okay, if I'm a dad or a mom with young kids, that's kind of my next level. Or the area of growth is just, what am I doing with my kids? How am I building that into my home? Focusing on their journey through teenage years. I mean, that's crucial stuff. If my kids are out of the home and I've got a lot more time on my hands. It's maybe looking at, okay, what can I contribute in my church or as a maybe being a mentor to someone. And I think also it comes down to that idea of, do we see this as a destination mindset? Like, well, I've already arrived, and so I'm done and I'm onto something else, or is it a part of our journey? Are we continuing to learn and grow? And if that's the case where we're on this journey of health and freedom, then I think we just look around and say, okay, God, what in this season of my life. And that's where I think January is great for all of us. Just to say, God, with where I'm at right now, what are you calling me to focus on? Because maybe it's not, you know, avoid relapses like it might have been a year or two or ten years ago, but we can see some of the same patterns of performance are still really driving our thinking. And we really start to say, okay, God, how can I bring those same tools and things I've learned in group and in my healing? How can I bring that into this problem? How can I develop community around me? How can I get honest about what the situation is? How can I develop guardrails? Like, those same tools will work, whatever our issue is. And so leaning into that and just allowing God to continue that. That journey in our lives towards greater health and freedom, because that's something we won't end until the end of our life.

Totally. Rich, I just have been thinking about something you have said. You, as you've kind of gone through your journey, you've changed the definition of relapse and really moved the line back and then started working on some of that stuff. Can you just describe that a little bit?

Yeah. I mean, if I look at the faster scale, I think anytime when I get into speeding up is. That's my kind of relapse area. Just because I know when I'm super focused on whatever it is at that moment and, you know, I'm pushing things aside, I become kind of short, you know, especially with my wife. She'll. She'll definitely. Well, that was kind of a rude answer. You know, even if. Even if I didn't think it was Ruiz just because I was short. Right. Maybe some attitude behind it. So really, speeding up is just that. That center circle for me right now, you know, and, gosh, I would love it to keep, you know, getting better and better. But I think for most guys in general, And I've said this for 20 years in groups or whatever, since we really started using faster scale. But really, most guys are wired. They come into group at a minimum of speeding up. So that's where most guys are starting because they got family, church, if they're in church, and kids and coaching and work. I mean, you name it. I don't know how you can just be in restoration or forgetting priorities or anxiety. I mean, you have to be speeding up just to keep up with daily life. So that, for me, is a healthy thing to look at. It's like, yeah, I can have a healthy balance and still be busy. So it's, It's. It's tough.

Totally.

But you have to, you know, you have to be aware. You know, we talked about awareness. You have to be aware of, you know, how you're responding to people at work.

Right.

Your family. Because it all comes out in the way we talk. And, you know, it could be short phone calls and short answers. Because when you have a short answer, you don't give somebody. You're not looking them face to face or eye to eye.

Yeah.

They think there's something wrong. That's because you're my. You're. You're answering a question, but you're literally on to the next right thing already.

Yeah.

So that's. That's where I would be considered kind of a danger zone for me.

Yeah. Because I think. I mean, that's the reason why I asked is I feel like that is part of what it looks like to continue pursuing health is relapse changes.

Oh, yeah.

You know, maybe you've got a handle on avoiding the old behaviors that were negatively affecting you and the people around you, but you've kind of upped the ante a little bit. Okay, so here's what I want to work on now. And I think part of that, too, and I. Like I said just a few minutes ago, for me, this question, it becomes what I'm pursuing, not what I'm avoiding. So am I pursuing more connection, more emotional health, more spiritual health, more physical health? Like, am I pursuing holistic healing in my life, not just this one specific area. If you're a video gamer or grew up playing games, it's like you're making it to the next level. And not that you've graduated. You still have the experience. Like, you know, most games, you can go back and play that one again if you have to, but it's like if you treat your healing that way, that you're now moving on to something that is deeper and gonna have more impact as you grow as a holistic person. I think that that for me, is how you continue to grow.

You know, when I started working at Pure Desire, I remember Ted Roberts telling me about, you know, new levels, new devils. And for those who know Ted, he's always got a great quote and usually rhymes, but there's so much truth to that that as we go through the seasons of change and healing and growth, new levels and new seasons create new temptations and challenges. And so, like, if we're a young adult who's done great, but suddenly we're moving into family years and we start having kids, we might find old patterns, try to come roaring back. And I've just heard for a lot of people how discouraging they can be because they start that shame cycle of, oh, what's wrong with me? And have I not changed at all? Am I the same old person? When really you've just been exposed to a whole new set of challenges and stressors and issues and anxieties and. And so there's going to be these. These patterns in your brain that your brain doesn't just totally forget those old behaviors. And there's that little voice that'll say, well, you're pretty stressed out. We. We know a way to deal with that. We know things that feel good.

That's right.

That's the other thing I think just be mindful of is what is the changing seasons. Because it's going to bring that new level, is going to bring new issues.

Right.

And rather than beat ourselves up over, you know, have I not changed at all, just addressing it, say, I'm in a new job and a new role and I'm going to need to find a new normal here that is healthy and not. Not just allow that new place to kind of overwhelm me all of a sudden.

Yeah, it's good.

I think you have to embrace change because if you become comfortable where you're at. Mm. You're eventually you're gonna stop growing. So you gotta challenge yourself.

Yeah. Yeah. Change is a lack of control. And a lack of control is very scary. Well, hey, we're gonna take a quick break from this conversation and talk to you about online groups. We are now in a new decade. Crazy, right? Crazy. And with this fresh start, this fresh year brings a lot of new opportunities for growth and help in our lives. And Nick, one of the best ways we've both grown in our own sexual health is through group. Right?

Yeah.

And so I think what we see is that there are a lot of men and women who have the desire to jump into group and start their healing right now. But they don't have groups in their area. They don't have people at their church who maybe are ready to lead or willing to even jump in. And so that's why we have created this online platform for people to jump into groups.

Yeah, that's right. You know, my experience in group for the first eight years was as a leader in a local church. And then we moved to the Portland area and there weren't groups in our local church. And so I started leading an online group. And I would say at first I was skeptical because it was like, you know, meeting over the Internet and video. This is going to be awkward, it's going to be weird. And there's always the technology side of it that you got to make sure everyone's videos working in audio and inevitably there's going to be someone's Internet's not working working. And. But once you get through that and you're actually all in a video hangout together, I was amazed at how quickly it felt personal. There was connection and I was able to share my story with other people who understood what I was working on and could share theirs with me. And so that is really my encouragement for anyone listening who hasn't had a group experience yet. There's probably a lot of reasons that you've given or come up with why not to, but. But I think you will find a healing community beyond what you expected. And so here we are at January, and many of us are motivated to change. We've called the holidays the season of relapse because there are all kinds of challenges with vacations and family of origin and being out of our rhythm, that maybe right now someone listening is in a place of vulnerability and humility that they haven't always been, that they're looking at their life going, something's got to give, something's got got to change. And I think our encouragement would be to say the best thing you could do rather than just buying more books and more, you know, self effort. I'm going to try harder. This is the year I change. If you're not doing it with other people, the likelihood of success is just. It's really, really slim. And so that's why we have these online groups now. I'd love for them to first look and see. Could I engage with something nearby and go in person. But for a lot of people, the answer to that would be there's. There's nothing around me. So that's that's why we have the online groups, and it's a great place to go and really dive into your healing in a new way.

And we have certified pure desire group leaders that will lead you through this roadmap to your healing. They are charged groups for that reason. We're charging 49amonth for people who are struggling and 29amonth for betrayal groups. And we do we just encourage you to explore this option because this could be the thing that really sets a new trajectory in your life. If you're interested in looking at these online groups, go to groups.puredesire.org now back to the episode. Okay, so one of the things so far in this episode that becomes pretty clear is we're talking in a lot of ways specifically to people who struggle with sexually compulsive behaviors, whether that's porn or sex addiction, maybe even a love addiction. But let's kind of turn the tables a little bit for this question. And let's talk about a betrayed spouse. So their healing journey still takes about that time. It's definitely a different type of journey. Learning how to process trauma and pain, learning how to let go of bitterness, learning how to forgive, restore relationship. So what does continued growth look like for someone who has processed some of that stuff? So same kind of question for someone who's gotten free sexually, for someone who's healing from betrayal, what is that continued growth look like?

You know, one of the things I was thinking about with this question that I've heard from a number of, you know, group members is maybe they start their healing journey, and because it's been their behavior that's caused the problem, the spouse has been like, hey, yeah, you get better, and I'm glad you're in group. But maybe they didn't engage initially. There have definitely been a lot of couples where the betrayed spouse won't go through group until maybe a year or two into the process. And so that. That was an idea I just wanted to bring up for some that maybe you've seen a lot of change and growth in your husband or wife. They've been the one leaning into the process, and it is starting to impact your marriage in a really good way. And you're starting to see that, man, maybe I've got more lack of trust in my life than I thought, or maybe I am a little more dealing with betrayal or unforgiveness than I realized. Just because your spouse is a year or two into healing doesn't mean you can't now say, I think I'm ready For group, I think I would like group. In fact, I know my wife has had a number of women step into her group over the years that are in that exact place, that they're a year or two into healing, and the wife has finally gotten to a place where she feels confident and safe to engage in her own healing, recognizing that she's not to blame for her husband's issues, but just seeing there's some junk that's kind of accumulated in her soul and she's got to do something with it. Um, and so they engage. And so I was just thinking about that for listeners, that if you've maybe been hesitant or haven't really engaged in a group, there's really no bad time to take that step and would encourage you to still consider that. And, and then what comes to mind for me is how important it is that when the couple really is experiencing healing as individuals, what does that look like as a couple? How do they begin to connect on a deeper level emotionally and doing things like, you know, reading a book together, praying together in the evenings, having more regular date nights and times where they get out that. That it really does become, you know, back to your layer question. I think by necessities, there's a layer where we work on us, but as the us or the me gets more healthy, then the focus becomes on the relationship. And so that's another thing I'd say to listeners is if. If your healing journey up to this point has primarily been about you, it's maybe time to start turning that corner to say, what's this going to look like for a better us? And just beginning to think and dream and pray together about how can you heal as a couple in new ways and then, you know, taking some of those steps together.

Yeah.

Yeah. One of the. One of the coolest comments I hear in the men's groups is when their wives are in the betrayal and beyond groups is that obviously it's tough as they're going through this process, but they get to a point where they finally can see their husband for the first time in a new light. Where they. They've. And I think I've said this before where, where they. They say, well, I finally see you for who I thought I married. I thought, now you're the guy I really thought I married. And, and for the. The spouse, they may never have gotten to that point if they wouldn't go through the betrayed classes.

Right.

You know, so it's. I think it's really important to do them in conjunction with each other. So if you have, you know, to get both connected at the same time, if possible. I mean, it just. I see when they both start at the same time, because what we do see is when they start at different times. You know, the guy works so. And he's at this level, the wife is down here, or vice versa. And then they start asking questions and then, you know, safety plan and all this stuff, and one's not there yet, one's way past there. So it's like. But when you start together and then they grow together, you know, it's real, it's just encouraging. And I love that comment, you know, and it's when, when the wife is like finally to be able to look at her husband and say, yeah, that's, you know, you're the man.

I thought it's like starting their marriage all over, but on a whole new, different playing field.

Yep.

I think too, another layer that comes to mind is maybe a betrayed spouse has gone through group, so healing, you know, for men or betrayal and beyond. And then they move to their own sexual and emotional health. So moving into a seven pillars. If you're the guy and have been the betrayed spouse, understanding your own sexual brokenness, how that plays out. And then if you're a woman going through unraveled and learning what it means to manage love, sex and relationships. And so I think that there's that layer too where you're not just pursuing health for the sake of your marriage, but your own personal health as an individual. And then I think that obviously has a lot of fruit outpouring as a. As a friend, as a mentor, as a parent, all that.

Yeah, yeah. So as we're talking about health here, maybe for some listeners this is actually a bit discouraging because they find themselves just feeling a little bit stuck. They feel like they're spinning their wheels or they find themselves maybe stuck in the same pattern of negativity, or they're. They're hearing themselves end up in the same arguments and they, or they look around their group, they're like, well, they're doing great, they're doing great, but why am I still having these once in a while relapses and, and that can be discouraging because I think we can feel like we're the only one. But what advice would you guys have for that man or woman that they just, they kind of find themselves in a place in their recovery? They just feel stuck. What, what could they do?

I always encourage them. One, I'll tell them that, care about them, love them, you know, Kind of reinforce that part of it. Yeah. You know, we're so glad you're in group. Just to make them feel welcome, because they could be at a part where they're just, you know, like you said, stuck. And. But really to just tell them, you know, don't give up. It sounds kind of easy, but don't give up and don't give in. You know, the enemy is going to be fighting us every day in this battle. So we don't want to give the enemy any traction for them to say, well, I'm just. It's not working for me. I'm just going to drop out a group. So I think it's important to. If you are that guy or gal that is stuck, is to have a conversation, maybe start with the group leader, and then if it's something where you want to share with a group, because I think we have to learn in that moment to really lean into the group process because you become very vulnerable because you put all that work in, you've had some healing, then what can happen is a relapse can be a major relapse at that point.

Yeah.

So it's really learning how to lean into those ones that are supporting you at that moment and encouraging them not to give up.

I think, for me, a part of that, too. And I think that in my mind, that, like, becomes a second step where the first step in my mind is to start asking questions of myself. Like, questions like, what habits have I let creep back into my life that I once was doing in my unhealth? Because I think that there's this, like, it's so funny. Like, we get this confidence. Like, all right, like, I'm getting some traction. I'm all right. Like, if you can start watching those HBO shows that I wanted to watch before or maybe can start listening to that music or maybe start going to the bar that I used to go to. Like, you think I'm good, I got it. And then you go back into the same environment or the same context that you used to be in, and that's how old habits can start to really creep back in. I'm not going to share a lot about it, but I'm reading a book right now on habits and context or environment is one of the key things that our brains latch onto for repeated behavior. And so which we know we talk about that stuff all the time, but I think that that's really the question that you have to ask. And then also kind of back to. And I know I'm beating this up a Little bit. But that idea of what you're pursuing, not avoiding. What new habits are you implementing into your life now to create that new trajectory? So it's not just, am I letting old things creep back in? It's also like, okay, what are some areas I could see, some growth that I need, and then what can I do to implement that? And then for me, that's when it's like, I need to involve other people in that, help me figure out why I'm stuck, what I can do to kind of break free from that.

Yeah. When I think of this question, what comes to mind for me is how important it is that we choose humility. Humility that goes to someone else and says, I'm stuck. Because sometimes we get into that performance mindset of, like, well, I got to just put my head down and try harder and keep. And that's kind of my, you know, the Iowa farm family work ethic. Like, we'll just keep working and the crops will come, and, you know, we will get it done. But that doesn't work if we're stuck. If we're stuck, we have to be able to go to others and. And say, I don't know really what to do. Can you help me? Maybe try to see what I'm missing or where am I repeating these same patterns, and I'm blind to it. And, you know, you think about if you are off in the woods and you are driving along and gets, you know, trapped in some mud, there's a lot of things you can work on. You can put it in reverse and try to rock it, and you can maybe try to throw some rocks in there. But there comes a point like, you realize you'll have to call aaa. You'll have to get someone with expertise.

Hopefully you have AAA at that point.

And cell phone reception. But there will come a point that, you know, I'm gonna need expertise beyond what I have. And that's what I think when we're stuck, we've just hit a point where we need to realize, I probably need some input here that's outside of what I know to do. So that might be a counselor. You know, it's not a bad thing. Even a couple of years into recovery, if you go to a counselor for the first time, because maybe that's when you finally bump into something that it's just unique to you. Maybe there's some trauma from your past that hasn't been dealt with, that's tripping you up. I mean, who knows what it is? But that's why Counselors become counselors because they're trained and adept at kind of wading through a story and hearing a piece of it or picking out something that you've been blind to and going, hey, what, what about this? Let's talk about that for a little bit. And it just, like Rich said, could be your group leader, could be a friend. But I think that choice of humility to say and admitting I'm stuck doesn't make me a bad person. It makes me wise enough to realize I'm going to need some outside help here and then going to whoever God puts on your mind and asking for their help.

Yeah, it's good.

Yeah. The next one. Part of growing in our health is the ability to help others find hope in this area as well. What are some practical ways we can help others in our family and our community take those steps towards health this year?

Yeah, I was thinking about this question and I think my context first was my kids, like, what am I giving to them? What am I providing them that I wish I would have had? And we've talked about it on this podcast, just the conversations that we have. Hey, how are you doing in this area? How are things going at school with friends? Are there things happening that you want to talk about? And trying to share pieces of my story where it's appropriate, because I think what we have seen is that our health, when we talk about it, has a way of encouraging someone else. And one of the things that right now is really exciting for us to see in our home. We have a 15 year old daughter, a teenager, and she is choosing a lot of really good self discipline. And I'm not going to say like, my wife and I should take all the credit for that, but I look at the journey we've been through as a couple and as a family and I just, I see and hear things in her that I'm like, I feel like it's a reflection of the health in our marriage. Now. We have challenges too. We're not a perfect family. And our teenage daughter, like any teenage daughter, has ups and downs that can be five seconds apart. So please don't like, you know, make our family into something that it's not.

Alyssa, if you're listening to this, yeah.

I would be super honored if she was listening to our podcast. But just I think that's what comes to mind is you will begin to see in others what God is really doing in you. If you're intentional to talk about it, to share it, to create those conversations. It doesn't have to Be a teaching thing of, okay, I did A, B and C. And so now you do A, B and C. Just being willing to live out loud around people around you. You'll start to see some of those behaviors in them. And then that's the other thing I would say is when you see it, I think you need to call it out and be willing to say to someone, man, I really appreciated the way you admitted how you were feeling there, because that probably wasn't.

It reinforces it.

Yeah, man. The way you were so focused there, that's so cool. And I think a lot of times we can take that for granted, especially if we're stuck in our own issues. We don't see the good in other people's lives. So I think pouring into others is not even as much about what we do, but just what we see. And then being willing to say, that's awesome. Keep it up.

Yeah. So, a quick story. So I like to communicate. My wife and I are really close to being out of debt. And at the airing of this podcast, it should be a week. Fingers crossed, please, Lord Jesus. And one of the things.

Not that everybody's counting.

Not that anyone's counting. Right. One of the things that the closer. Because we live with her parents, and one of the things that she started to really do is pay attention to the language that we use. And so instead of, we're getting out of here, it's. We're getting into our own place. So just the change of the language. And I've noticed this. I've seen this in other areas of life, but not specifically in the home life until now, how the culture changes based on the language that you use. And so I think that I've seen this in the community that I'm a part of. Once you start to use recovery language and emotional health, and you start to really focus on different aspects of it, the culture changes. Language really does affect the culture. And so that's just like, the practical thing I'm experiencing right now and learning from my wife, where I'll just be like, God, I want to get out of here so bad. And she's like, language, what are we talking about? And she's like, that's the way she'll say it. And I'm like, gosh, you're right.

Language.

Yeah, right, Totally. We would just watch the Avengers. And so that's what I'm thinking of. Infinity War. Or not Infinity War. Sorry, I'm getting off topic. It doesn't matter. Listen. Language changes culture. And just know that as your Language changes. You create that culture around you.

Yeah, I. Going into this year, I don't like resolutions. I just challenges and changes.

You listened to our previous episode on rhythms rather than goals.

Yeah, right.

Yeah.

You know, after leading, what, 20, I don't know, 25 years of leading groups, something like that.

Just a couple years.

A couple years I wanted to go into this year just something a little different and challenge. So to focus on. Because you talked about language. It's so easy as a group leader when you.

For.

For me is to just to continue in the same pattern of leading for a long time.

Yeah.

My goal going into this year was. Is to start working with just pastors and have kind of pastors only groups, because now I'm using a little bit different language in those groups. And these groups are. Those pastors don't have any groups at their church. So they're starting to hear pure desire language and how we do stuff in these groups, and then they're going to take it back to their churches. So it's just encouraging to see one. How much growth I've learned over the years through this process because I'm still continuing to learn and read books and all this stuff and then working with groups and churches and all that stuff. So it's just. It's a great thing to see moving forward when we make a decision to challenge ourself and what health looks like for not only myself, but what I can offer, what we can offer for a church that has no idea about groups, a pastor that is struggling, you know, couples that are struggling. And I think part of that is learning. And not just learning, but to continue to share our story. Because that is really the key piece with all of this. Because if, as a leader, if we're not sharing our story, then we're leaving such a key part of that out of there.

Yeah. All right, guys, so as we are going in, really, To February, the second month of 2020, what are you guys thoughts on how people can stay vigilant, to pursue healing and still move forward in their freedom and in their health?

Yes. In honor of football season or any sports, because I'm a sports nut, but because it's playoffs. The picture I have, and I wrote some notes, but I'm gonna go a different direction. The picture I had was Walter Payton. So if you've ever seen a video.

Old running back.

Old running back. Chicago Bears. Yes, I'm a Bears fan. Die Hard.

We forgive you for that.

Yeah, we need a quarterback. But anyway, there's a. There's a Video of Walter Payton running up a sand dune. And if you've ever seen it, or if you've ever experienced just walking up a sand dune or a hill, it's very tough. Well, this was on this. He did this outside of his practice. That's a lot of what group can look like as you're walking up the sand dune. And every time you take a step, you're literally sliding back. And that's what made Walter Payton a great athlete, a great running back. You know, we're no different than him in the sense that we are practicing, we are getting ready to go to battle against 350 pound defensive linemen that are. Which is the enemy, which is going to try to destroy us in our recovery. So we have to be doing the work, which is the workbook, the journal, accountability, and using the tools that we have in group and practice those tools on a daily basis.

Yeah, that's good.

Yeah, I love that image of the running up the sandhill because, man, that guy had strong legs. And I think for all of us, we're just, we're trying to say, how do I keep getting stronger and healthier but at the same time be okay with the reality that I am still a human being. And I think that's the dangers we face. I know in my own life when, when we've been in recovery for several years and maybe the old behaviors have changed, we're in a new place, we start to think, you know, I should be above these triggers or temptations. And so maybe something happens when we feel triggered or we're really drawn to something that we know is wrong. And then that internal voice of shame can kick in like, what's wrong with me? I should be better than this. And we need to have an acceptance of, well, I'm still a human being. I'm still a man or a woman that has eyes and desires and hormones. I didn't become superhuman with this immunity to these things. That'd be nice. But I think that's what we just have to be okay with, especially years 5, 6, 7, 8, that you are still a human being. And on the flip side of it, and this is also in my story, that there are still things that are going to trip us up if we say to ourselves, well, I'm above that, just like you were sharing earlier, that I can handle this now or this won't affect me. And some of it's that humility of saying, well, it might because I'm still human and I can't just put up with junk in my life and think it's not going to lead me towards unhealth. So having that, I guess I'd say contentedness with our humanity because God made us as human beings. He didn't make us as perfect robots. He gave us free will, he allowed us the capacity to sin. And part of our process of sanctification and growth is still walking through those things. And so that's my encouragement to someone listening who's maybe been at this a while, like Rich was saying, is to avoid those two extremes. One of, I'm above it, it won't impact me, and then we fall into the old pattern or the other side of beating ourselves up of why am I still struggling with this? That really the answer to both is that just humble awareness of I'm human and thank God I'm not who I used to be, but I'm still someone in process. I need people in my life. I need guardrails, I need wisdom, I need awareness. And that's just part of being human. And so if we can accept that, if I can accept that and not get into the shame cycle and beat myself up, because that gets even worse, then I can just take day in and day out. Well, this is where I'm at. And how can I bring those things to Christ and other people and allow him to keep changing me? That's, I think, what it's all about.

Yeah. The only thing, and I mean, it's echoing what you guys have already talked about. Just that idea of community. I mean, that's what's really important. And so that's how we stay vigilant, is we avoid isolation, pursue community and authentic, vulnerable community. Not just like, yeah, you kind of know about what I'm going through. Sorta. It's like, no, you know me, you know what I'm going through, you know my life, and you've got the keys to my house, so come on in and help me out. So I think community is such a huge thing. So 2020, we are claiming it. It will be a year of renewal for all of us. Let's make it a year of continued renewal for our freedom from sexual brokenness and betrayal, creating healthy rhythms, relationships, awareness, and lasting freedom. Rich, thanks for wrapping this series up with us, man. Appreciate it.

Glad I could be a part of it.

This episode does wrap our new Year Renewed Rhythm series. We hope that this fueled your vision and hope for all the growth that 2020 can bring. Maybe you're early on in your recovery, or maybe you're even 10 or 20 years in. Either way, there's always more ways we can be growing in our freedom and in our healing. Wherever you are at on your journey, Pure Desire is here to help create a road map for your healing. If you or someone you know is looking for help, go to PureDesire.org and start your healing journey now. And if you haven't subscribed to the podcast, do it. It's free. Rich will love you forever. Just subscribe. And lastly, never stop being healthy.

Sam.