136 - Infamous Group Members: The Late-Comer

You're listening to the Pure Desire Podcast, your safe place to find hope, healing, and freedom from sexual addiction, betrayal and relationship issues. Hello again, people. I am your host, Trevor Windsor, and you are listening to episode 136 of the Pure Desire podcast. Here joining me as always, is my co host, Nick Stembo.

Word up.

I feel like that's something that our friend Ben Bennett would enjoy you saying.

Yeah, well, and you would think after 130, whatever podcasts. I'd used Word or Word up as an intro, but surprisingly, no thanks to Google search, I found that I have not used Word up and I'm running a little dry on the intro. So it was good to find a more common one that hasn't been used yet. There you go.

This is a very easy call to action for you listener. Nick needs more suggestions for intros. You can email seuredesire.org use the subject line PD Podcast Intro. And your intro too might make it on the Pure Desire podcast.

That's right.

Okay, so before we talk about the episode today, we are actually in week two now of our series on infamous group members. But first, couple quick things. Subscribe to the podcast if you have not. You can find us on all the major platforms. And please, if you can, give us a review. It helps more people see the podcast means a lot to us. Also, you can follow us on Facebook, Twitter and instagramuredesirepdmi. If you like to consume video content, you can check out clips of these episodes on YouTube. Just search Pure Desire Ministries. And then, in case you haven't heard, we're now offering an upgraded online group system led by certified Pure Desire group leaders. This is the quickest way to get into group and start your healing. We have groups for both the struggling person and the betrayed person. You can visit groups.puredesire.org to join a group or get more info now.

Okay, so that was well done.

Thank you. Today's episode, we sat down with our online groups administrator, Dan Howey, and we talked about the infamous group member, the latecomer.

Yes. Dan being a very veteran group leader who's seen this a lot of times, and you can tell from his experience he's got some good things to offer. And you know what I really like about this series we're doing is how what we do in group that is maybe a little off or a little dysfunctional is actually just a microcosm of what we struggle with in life. And so I think that's what the listener is really going to pick up today is how if we're struggling as a late arriver. It's not just about group. There's a whole lot of other things that we really need to process and think through. And I think it's going to give great ideas for those who are not the latecomer, but are bothered by it. How to not be a jerk and just say, get here on time, but to constructively work on a better group experience for everyone. Yeah.

And I think this series too is really trying to push into the importance of why we do what we do as far as the format and structure of our groups, that it is intentional to try to create the best experience that we all can have. So this is a good one. Enjoy it. Dan has a lot of good stuff to add to the conversation. Enjoy the episode. Dan, welcome back, my friend. So glad you're here. Thank you so much for having me Again, listener. I wish you could hear the conversations and the jokes and the judgment toward Dan's clothing that we talk about before episodes.

New shirt.

New shirt.

New shirt.

New undershirt and shirt and shirt and over shirt.

Yeah, that's post Christmas sales.

Post Christmas. That's awesome.

Really handy.

Okay, so many of you listening or watching this. If you're seeing some of this, you've either heard of or experienced a pure desire group, whether it's online at a local church, Pure desire groups continue to meet weekly as people pursue healing from the effects of sexual brokenness. As we have heard, as we've seen, as we've experienced, there are people we'd call infamous group members. Whether they intend to or not. There are usually difficult group members in your group experience, whether that is you or it is someone in your group. So really, we're starting this series of episodes really to talk through, not just how to identify am I that person? But also to really create a safe place and a place that really functions well as a group coming together. And so today we are talking about the latecomer. Now, I'm gonna say this before we jump in, Dan. Last week is like, hey, wouldn't it be awesome if you guys started the episode and I wasn't sitting at the chair and then I walked in during the interview.

Sorry, I'm late.

I said super cheesy. And then I realized I wanted to do it today, but then I talked myself out of it, so.

Wow. I actually had material prepared if we went with it.

It's awesome. Okay, so. But you're here on time. We appreciate that. All right, so the late comer. I was a worship pastor for years, and Let me just tell you, in my experience, Christians tend to be late for everything. And I literally can think of the like six or seven people that I saw walking into church as were, like, playing and singing. But at pd, you know who you are, right?

Right.

No judgment.

It's a lot of the same people, isn't it?

It is.

It really is. But here at pd, we really appreciate and value showing up on time. And so let's just talk real quick. Why do we see that as such?

First of all, I just want to say that it does sound personal with you, and I would say that not all Christians are late to everything.

Okay, but.

All right.

But I do agree, and I honestly, I don't know rebuke received if it was, you knew something, talk to someone. But if there was in this series of infamous group members, this is me. I'm a late comer for sure. So. And I've kind of figured out why, which is kind of cool. But certainly when, when we come to group, it sounds like we're going to be there for two hours. That's a long time. You know, like two hours sitting at anything feels like forever. Except group. I don't know why that is, but.

It goes by fast.

It does. So if you don't start, I mean, this is the most practical thing. Why do we do it? We don't have much time. Especially if you have a group of six, seven guys. And if you're going into depth, it's just hard to get through the material. So right off the bat, give yourself enough time to finish it to do the work.

I think about showing up on time also relates to starting the group on time. And what we're talking about requires a little bit of self discipline. It's enforcing or putting in place a little bit of structure and showing a high level of commitment. And I think of those three things for most of us as addicts, and I know in my own past, discipline, structure, and commitment were things that, when I was, you know, careening towards old behavior, those. Those were the things that were going out the window. I didn't have healthy disciplines. I wasn't maintaining, you know, structures of relationship and accountability. And I. I didn't have a commitment to the right things in my life. And so then I'm sliding to places I don't want to go. And I think when we're looking at recovery, we want to realize that the group itself is only part of our healing process. Some of it is learning to be a person that is committed to what I'm committed To can show up at places on time because that requires some discipline and having inviting, healthy structure. So it's. In some ways, it's a small thing. But your question, why is it important? I think it's one of the ways that we embrace this idea that change isn't just stopping a behavior, it's changing the way I do life. And so if I show up at group on time, I'm showing this is going to be a different way of doing life by my discipline, my structure, and the commitments I'm making.

Yeah, for sure.

I think considering too, like, I mean, you guys are already talking about it, the extensive commitment that you're making to this group. And you have to also consider there are other people in the group. And so if those guys or gals are taking 10, like, 10 months, coming every week for two hours, you also have to take that into account that if I'm late, like, because this is what I'm thinking, if I show up 15 minutes late, that means that 15 minutes we're probably gonna go over, which means it impacts everyone else's schedule who carved out two hours. Which, you know, believe you me, the older you get, it's really hard to carve out two hours every single week on the exact day. It's really hard. Whether it's the addict brain or it's just scheduling as an adult, especially when you've got kids and a wife, like, at a spouse, like, all of that. So I think that you have to consider other people as well and the importance that that structure and that time really creates for other people.

Yeah. Yeah. It's disruptive when you're starting on time.

Yeah.

And you still walk in and it's like, oh, what happened with James again? I just caught the last bit of that. What did he say?

That's true.

It's really frustrating.

Yeah, it is.

Yeah. Well, I know we're going to get into a lot of other reasons why the commitment to being on time is important, but for a lot of us, you know, we grew up in church and around a gospel idea that emphasizes grace and forgiveness and that acceptance of other people, flaws and all, just as God accepts us. And with people who are recovering from sexual brokenness or addiction or betrayal, a lot of grace is needed. We all need a lot of that grace. So how do we balance that understanding of grace and acceptance with being intentional about starting group on time? Because it sometimes seems like it's a small thing. Why harp on someone? Just be gracious. How do we balance that idea of grace with being Intentional to start on time.

So you're saying threats are not what we're going for.

Well, in general. Okay, all right.

Guess you can go that way. You know, one of the things that, like I said, this was me. I had a guy, a leader come up to me and just said, hey, notice you haven't been, you know, you've just been a few minutes late to group. Not like 15, but 6. And he's like, so what's going on? And tell me. I know you're committed to group, but it seems like you're always a little bit late. And that really made me reconsider what's going on and why am I not. Rather than saying, get to group on time, it's important for you. And now it's just a performance and a standard that needs to be set, which for me just checked off a box. But if someone says, why are you late all the time? Or what's going on? Why can't you make it think rather than just say, okay, I'll be there.

Yeah.

So I think really asking. So I notice this is a pattern. Tell me what's going on.

Yeah.

What's going through your mind?

I don't tend to like try to over spiritualize it or not everything.

Gosh.

Even as I'm saying this almost sounds weird. But not everything has to have like a biblical basis. Not every single practice of your life has to be like a verse tells you.

Why did you eat Fruit Loops this morning?

Exactly.

Because there's fruit in the garden.

Right. So good. Which is why I eat pomegranates every day. So that's not true. I don't think I've ever had one.

Okay.

So I think of like Matthew 18. That's what comes to mind for me. Like when someone, when there's an issue, there's this element of going to them one to one, one on one. But I'd even say before that, like back to what you were saying, give it some time. In reality, it's not just the person's like brain. It's also like their rhythm of life, their scheduling, their discipline, all of that is growing. And so there does need to be gr. Especially on the front end. So give it some time. And then if it's something that you see maybe four or five weeks in, it's been this way, and consistently is this way, then a one on one conversation becomes important. And it's not a one on one conversation. Maybe right before group or right after group. Let's make it something maybe that's in the middle of the week and really just ask questions. I mean, like that leader. So, like, what's going on? Like, why, you know, why are you six minutes late every single week? Like, that is something where you also, when you have that conversation, can say, hey, this is not me coming down on you. This is just thinking about the way that we run group and the effects that this could have. So let's have a conversation and really stress as well. If you're thinking about this question, it's not a if you mess up one time, you're gone type of system. Really understand that grace still is a part of it, but we're also considering the group and how it functions together as a whole for the best experience for everyone involved.

Well, and I think even the way I asked the question was a bit of a setup because I think we make a mistake at times of inappropriately linking grace and acceptance. That grace means I just accept whatever it is about you that's flawed and broken when that really isn't grace. You know, grace is tied to the concept of forgiveness, of sin. And the other part of that concept is that the person recognizes sin and is repentant and looking to make change in their life. And then I'm offering grace as part of that process. But if I'm just continually overlooking someone's flaws and faults, that may not necessarily be grace. It's just license to allow them to continue an unhealthy pattern. And so I think back to. I think it was Trent and Smalley that in the 80s and 90s really popularized the idea of tough love versus soft love. And soft love is what we tend to think of as grace. Just, you're awesome and I love you and we're all good. But that it's also loving to say to someone, hey, I'm noticing something in your life that I believe isn't going to be good for you in the long run. And it's. And the other part of this is it's not good for the rest of the group. And so in a loving way. And we, as you said, Trevor and you also, Dan, that we can be very gracious in how we approach someone. We don't have to be the not, you know, the real rigid disciplinary, like, why are you late? Never do it again. You know the threads. But we can be very gracious. Like, man, we're so glad you're in our group and love having you come. And I see this as really having some effect in your life. But I'm also noticing this tendency to be late so that's a very gracious approach. But I'm not just blindly accepting what they do. And I really think that's also considering the grace side for the rest of the group, that if. If four out of five guys are there and sitting around for 10 minutes waiting for Larry, it's actually being ungracious to the other four guys not to talk to Larry and say, hey, could we talk a little bit? And so I think just recognizing we can be gracious to someone and call out what we need for them to be a better contributor to the group.

So we've all heard the joke that. And I'm trying to think of all the different varieties of this joke, but if it's. It's like if you're. If you don't know the dumb one in the group, you're the dumb one in the group kind of thing. We've all heard that joke. So let's say we are the person that shows up late to group for whatever reason it may be. What are some tips you guys would give on becoming more disciplined and showing up on time for group?

Well, for me, why am I there in the first place? And if I am coming because I have something that I want to address. I didn't just, like, show up and like, what are you guys doing? Can I join?

This seems like a fun group.

I know. Yeah. You guys look like you're having a ball. I don't know if people say that having a ball anymore.

Yeah. Okay, you just dated yourself a little bit.

Maybe.

Maybe a little bit. But I ended up there for. Because of very specific reason. And so if I'm committing to be in this group, why am I here? Am I going to do what it takes to be successful in what I've bit off to chew? Because it's substantial, it's not going to be easy. And that happens. You know, you can use the same adage in homework or calls or anything. You know, what. What got you to this group? So do what I need to do to make this effective. Yeah. So motivation and priority for me is. Is key. Yeah.

When I think about tips, I start with the leader. That we do have to be willing as a leader to see that I'm going to get the kind of group that I model. And frankly, for myself, I'm not super regimented. I mean, if we start five minutes after, I'm okay with just kind of allowing time for guys to settle in. And so if a guy's a couple minutes late, and frankly, I tend to be in the right on Time to one or two minutes late. But I recognize for me it's, I think of myself as a maximizer. Like I always look at a clock and think I can get this done in five minutes and then I'll go. And it puts me. And I get that that's happening. But I think to recognize, well, if, then I need to be okay, that other guys will be a minute or two late and I am. And so that's one thing to just think of as a group. Like, what do you want, if you want to start, you know, seven o' clock on the nose, really, you should talk to the group about, hey, let's all try to come five to 10 minutes early so that we start right on the nose. If that's important to your group, you've just got to communicate that. So I think as a leader, setting the expectation and being clear about what's expected. And then I think if we're the one that's often late, I'm going to get into this more in the next question. But it's trying to understand why do I do that? Is it that I just, I don't plan enough time for travel? Is it that I'm sitting at home doing my homework right up until I have to go and I need to plan for that differently? Is it that I haven't communicated my schedule to my wife and kids and so really they're expecting me to do things that I'm finishing up at home or even my workplace that I haven't communicated? I've got a meeting at such and such time and so I'm staying too late and, and it's being willing to look at what's causing this and deal with those. And so if you're habitually the late comer having that honest look, say, okay, what's really driving this? And then making some adjustments to your pattern?

Yeah, a really practical way, because I figured this out in my own life that if you schedule things, you're much more likely to do them. And for anybody that's got a smartphone and I, you know, I know Nick's probably gonna say something about an iPhone, but I have an iPhone. And it actually asks if you'd like to include travel time in your schedule in your calendar. And so I put in where I'm going and it says, do you wanna do it? You say, yes. It's like, okay, well you would leave at this time. And so it's something that just practically, if you put it in your schedule, if you know that the church or wherever you're meeting is 20 minutes away, know that it's like a hard out 20 minutes before group starts. And then if you want to even schedule a little bit of buffer time in case you want to stop and get coffee on the way or do something like that, but just be regimented, and that's going to seem really uncomfortable. I mean, I'm the type of person that I've had to force myself to get into a schedule and a regimen, and it's really difficult to do at first, but if you want to change a habit, being intentional and putting things in place like a schedule tend to make it a little bit easier.

Yeah, I know. For me, I tend to. I look at the clock and think, okay, at seven minutes to church, I've got to leave in seven minutes. But what I forget is I have to put my shoes on. I have to find my workbook. I'm gonna say goodbye to my wife and kids. And then when I jump in the car now it's two minutes. And I didn't plan that buffer. And so sometimes it is being really practical to say, okay, if it's seven minutes to get there, it's also typically five minutes for me to get out the door. And now we're just. We're backing up and going, okay, I'm on time this weekend.

And really it comes down to. For me, it's always come down to, why don't I want to be early? Because. Because I'm the same guy. It's like right up to the edge. And I know now it's. I. That that time that you have with no structure with other guys is the time I'm going to be asked to be the most transparent and vulnerable. I'm going to have to be. I'm gonna have to be honest.

Variables at play.

Yeah. I'm like, what. What am I. What am I being asked to do?

And so it's protective for you?

Very protective. Yeah, that and my parents growing up made us go to church early, and I got a little resentful about that.

I'm that parent.

Are you the last to leave?

Not usually when you have kids, things change a little bit, but I usually tend to be the one who shows.

Up, not my parents.

Yeah.

Well, this is great so far, but we're gonna take a quick break and talk about accountability software. Just like Batman's utility belt, we all need tools to help us create sobriety and maintain health over the long haul. One of the first and simplest tools to implement is accountability software.

Yeah, absolutely. One of the challenges we Face in today's Internet age is never before has access to, you know, explicit material been easier, faster, more prevalent. And really it's, it's a form of arrogance, if I could even say that. Way to think we don't need help in our faster scales that we do in group check ins. Step one involves overconfidence. And I think if we feel like, oh I'm fine, I can navigate this now there's some overconfidence that comes. And so part of everyone's healing journey we really feel is that accountability software because it creates that continual feeling for you that the Internet is not a place I go alone, that I'm actually there with friends who I can be accountable to and I can use the Internet for, for healthy things because it has tons of benefits and we want to use the Internet well. But the best way I know to guard against all the dark corners that we can get pulled into is knowing if I go there, my friends are going to see it too. And that's why accountability software is vital for anyone's recovery journey.

Yeah, and we have three options that we really suggest and we hope that you consider. And really it's one of those things too where we offer these different options because different options offer different benefits that maybe work best for you and your community. The three options are Covenant Eyes Ever Accountable and accountable to you. For Covenant Eyes, if you go to covenanteyes.com PureDesire or you enter the promo code PureDesire, you will get one month free. And it also gives us a little bit of a kickback as a ministry. Covenant eyes is $11.99 per month and again you get that first month free. The second one is ever accountable. Go to everaccountable.com PureDesire you can sign up. That is 6.99amonth. And then there's accountable to you, accountable the number two. And then y o u.com so that's accountable. The number two y o u.com use the code PureDesire. You'll get some benefits there as well. And again guys, we would just say that this is one of the most helpful tools to have in your belt. So we hope that you consider accountability software.

All right guys, so let's say that you know, we're not the group leader and we tend to be someone who's on time and we're finding some frustration with a group member who's habitually late. How could we come alongside a late coming group member and help in this process to maybe get the whole group starting on time.

Yeah. More threats. Back to the Pretty much weapons words. No, I mean, it's the same thing that we've mentioned before. You know, really what I like to do is just kind of invest some time in this guy, let him know that he's valuable, that we appreciate his input, that we want to hear everything that he has to say, and we want him to hear what we have to say. And if he's not there, he's missing out and we're missing out. And it seems to sometimes, not every time, but it seems to get some urgency of, oh, I'm really a part of this and I'm wanted. I know that I haven't always felt wanted in my life. Want to be more invisible than visible. So that's one way.

Yeah.

Yeah. I think another way, too, is just lead by example. Like, you. You are a guy that shows up. You are a gal who shows up on time and is consistent. And I think that that really. I mean, we talk about that in so many different things, and that's just a practicality of life, that you lead by example in so many different ways. And so you being on time. And here's something. This is interesting. There are people. I've noticed there's almost two or three different types of people, but specifically, there are people who are going to be late. And let's say, you know, that that person lives 15 minutes away and they wait until about five minutes before group and then text you, hey, I'm gonna be late. And it's like, well, are you just leaving now or did you leave 10 minutes ago? Be intentional that if you know you're gonna be late, make sure that people know, like, well in advance. Like, hey, guys, maybe it's an hour, maybe a half an hour before group. Look, sorry, group members, this is going on. I'm gonna have to be late. Sometimes there's things outside our control, but being intentional about how we communicate and then also leading by example, whether we are on time consistently or being intentional about our communication, if we can't be.

Yeah, yeah. When I think about coming alongside someone, it's that idea of just trying to help them understand why they're habitually late. I think of a podcast we did probably over a year ago now with Michael Dye, and he talked about the faster scale and a gal he was working with that was just super late to everything. It had cost her some jobs. And he tells this story of following her to work one day and just noticing the frantic pace she was in and her frenzy of getting to work and he noticed how it actually was part of her, of her faster scale, because it enabled her to ignore a lot of things that would have maybe reminded her of what she didn't have or the trauma in her life. And to then talk with her that it's not just that you're a late person, it's that this has become part of how you cope and medicate with pain versus trying to help her. See if you would slow down and go early, the time you would have to notice beauty in this world, have conversations. And I just, I thought that was really interesting to think through. Could we do that for one another? So maybe sitting down with that friend and saying, hey, tell me about the hour before group. What are you typically doing? You know? And maybe you find out that it's just the chaos of getting dinner and dishes done and picking up, and they don't want to leave too early. And so they help as long as possible, right up to the last minute, and then they leave and they're always late and saying, well, what would it look like to have just a conversation with your spouse to talk about how you'd like to be early? And even saying to them, I, I am committed to helping with the dishes, but if you don't mind, I need to leave at such and such time, and if I don't get everything done, I'm committed. I promise when I get home, I'll finish. Is it okay, though, that I, that I leave? And sometimes even those conversations with the spouse, it's like, oh, yeah, I didn't realize you were so interested in being on time. Because they're maybe used to us being late and they don't think we care. But if we say, I really want to be on time, I'm really committed to this group. I know it helps everyone that we can get going, and so I want to make sure I'm doing my part. And maybe that's even a conversation with a boss of, hey, can I come in 10 minutes early on this day? So I leave 10 minutes early. And some of those are uncomfortable. But that I think is part of going back to what I said earlier about our commitment and our structure, that we have to be honest about our needs and about what we can commit to. And sometimes a hard conversation can open the door for us to then really make that priority, something that we stay committed to.

Okay, let's take the perspective then of a group leader. And as we've already established, I'm that guy who likes to show up early to everything. Growing up, if you were on time, you were late. If you're early, you're on time. So that was kind of drilled into me. But let's say group leader and you have someone who's showing up to group late every single week. How do we as a group leader help? Let's do kind of a two parter. One, how do we help that individual in our group? And then two, how do we balance that with protecting the group and the safe place that we're trying to create for people?

Yeah, I think one of the things that. A couple things. One, first of all, starting group on time. And we've kind of talked about it, but it really, it really makes a difference if when someone walks in and they're late and someone's already working through their stuff and no one says, hey, how's it going? They just come and sit down and it does kind of set the tone.

So not waiting for them? Basically?

No, absolutely not. We start on time because we want to end on time. That's one thing that I believe is super important, is respecting everyone's time. We've committed to two hours. Let's use those two hours. I think that's really good. And then also we've talked about talking to people one on one. But there's certain groups where I feel like it's more important than others. But just reviewing the group guidelines from time to time, once a month, every other week, whatever it takes. Just kind of like, here's what we committed to. Doing homework, making calls. I just looked it up today because I wasn't sure if it's in there. And it doesn't say start group on time, but it should, we should make it because it is a thing. So anyway, definitely you can set those expectations, remind them and actually follow through. And I think people start getting the hint when they're four minutes late and someone's already talking.

Yeah, that's exactly what I was thinking about. You know, advice that I would receive early in my ministry career from other pastors that there is a tendency that says, well, people always come a little late, so let's start a little late. But recognizing that if you start five minutes late, then people will start to come 10 minutes late. And so if you wait for them 10 minutes, then they'll start coming 15 minutes late.

Christians are late.

It's a perpetual cycle that people who are stuck in a faulty path pattern, they're just going to adjust that pattern with you. So one of the other things I've seen that I really encourage groups to work against, even if you start your group on time but you allow 15, 20 minutes of just chit chat that actually communicates to group members. Well, we don't really start till 7:20 when I pray and we go into our group check ins, which kind of creates a sense of, well, if I'm 15 minutes late, I didn't really miss anything, I just missed chit chat. So like I said, I tend to be a right on time a minute or two late. But once we're 7:03, 7:04, we're starting, we're praying, we're jumping in. And I think that does create a sense of the group has started and I missed a start. Just like at church, if the worship team has started or the welcome and announcements are being given right on 10:30 and people are walking like, oh, if I want to be here from the beginning, I will need to come early. So it's just that idea of a group member. And then the other thing, I think when you're the leader it's just always good to start with questions with that inquisitive, hey, I've noticed the last couple weeks you're late, what's going on? Anything I can help with or anything we need to know. And some people may be in a season where it might be unavoidable, they might say, I cannot clock out till 6:30, it's usually a 29 minute drive. But if traffic's bad it's 34, whatever they say. And then you maybe choose to work with that, but then you know, because that is a difference. If I know this person has this commitment and they're not just lollygagging at home or sitting in their car drinking their Pepsi and not coming in, then I can be more accommodating. But if you don't know, so just start with that question of hey, what's going on? And they may just say, yeah, I just keep running late. And that's a time to emphasize that, hey, we like to start on time. And you might have noticed when you got here tonight, Bill was already sharing and just realize that's kind of a distraction to Bill and we want to respect everyone in the group. And I think people then get it. But that posture, when you give them a chance to explain what's going on, they're going to be more open to what you have to say versus if your first text or your first conversation to them is hey, could you stop being late? It's bothering the group. Now I'm put on the defensive. I'm feeling a little bit like who are you to tell me what to do? So just starting with kind of that question I think can help a lot too.

I think one of the things, and you guys ride on something. That's another perspective that I have seen fruit in and I've talked to some people about is communicating to that individual how it actually affects the group. Because I think a lot of people when they walk in late, they don't think, oh, I'm making group experience worse for them. Maybe I'm making it worse for me because I'm not showing up on time. But we don't consider just naturally. I think especially walking a group, maybe for the first time, the first few weeks of it, we don't think, oh, this is negatively affecting the group. They're already going, they didn't wait for me, it's not a big deal. But what I've seen is in communicating that that can be that added layer of like, oh, there's more at stake than just me being late and not getting to maybe share as much as I wanted to. There's me missing the answers or the check ins from other people that add value to me in my life. There's the safety that I'm potentially compromising because it's like the guy walks in late, he doesn't feel as committed as I am if I'm showing up on time. And it's like, I don't really feel safe sharing this with you because you're not really committed. And in this with me you're just kind of this floater person who's around and feels inconsistent. So I think that there's an element to whether you're doing that in group as a group, saying, hey, here's the importance, guys or gals of what we're doing in group and why we do it this way. Or it's a one on one conversation adding that little piece of like, hey, consider the value of the group and how everyone experiences it and how that plays, I think can be surprising in how people can react and respond to that positively.

Sure.

Because we are natural isolators. So we tend not to consider others in our actions. So we'll do what's comfortable.

You know, as we're talking, guys, it just occurs to me that this topic is far more than the group people are attending, that this applies to our life in general. And if we're the late comer to our group, we're probably the late comer as a way of life. And, and so this really is, it's worthwhile to help someone work through because it's probably part of the healing they need is thinking about what's the pattern that's causing this and part of your health may be overcoming it and how can our group help and support that. So I hope listeners are catching that that man, this is more than just a healthy group. This is a healthy lifestyle. So any other final tips today? Just to groups, to members, to leaders on how to handle the late comer and make sure you're having an effective group time.

Yeah, yeah. I think we've talked a lot and pulled up the same points and it feels like it always comes down to lead by example. If I'm going to lead a group, I need to be an example of what I expect, being consistent. And then also going back to some of the same questions we asked for in lots of different situations. What's the benefit? Why am I if someone's truly late or if I'm truly late, what am I getting out of it? What's the benefit for me? What do I get to avoid? Protect? Like you said, we're doing it for a reason and it can be a great tool to shine a light on what we truly believe or feel.

Yeah, I think for me, it's easy to just if you've been that person for your whole life, it's like, well, this is just how I am. Evaluate what your schedule looks like actually toward the beginning of the week leading up to group, like, am I missing things? Am I late on everything else? And does that kind of just create this rhythm of life that it's like I'm just late to everything? And so the more disciplined or more scheduled and intentional we can be with our time leading up to group, we're going to feel less rushed to maybe get that, like, I want to maximize my time and get this done. It's. Well, actually, I've already allotted enough time for all these things in my life and this kind of helps me get on time. And I'll be honest, like, if you are someone who is a latecomer and you are in a group, call your group members and say, hey, I'm struggling with this. Can you talk me through it? Like, what's worked for you? How does this impact you? What are ways I can improve as a group member? There's that humility that's built in there that I think that could just bring a lot of fruit and bring you closer together as a group.

Yeah, it's interesting. I mentioned on one of our beginning of the year podcasts that I was hoping to read Malcolm Gladwell's talking to strangers this year. Got it for Christmas. Thanks mom. Read it, loved it. And he brings up in a couple of case studies how people who are in an agitated mindset or experience even a little bit of trauma don't have the capacity to remember things as accurately or really address the truth of what they've seen. So he was bringing it up in light of like court cases and getting an accurate witness. But I think there's. To your point, Trevor, something to remember. When we're coming to group, we want it to be a deeply meaningful experience. And if we come in frazzled and in a rush and throwing our stuff down and barely did some of our homework, like our ability to engage and really be changed by the group is minimized. So it leads into what I was gonna say kind of two things. One on more serious, one on less serious. On the more serious side, I think we have to cast the vision repeatedly of just the value of group. Because if you think about things in our life that we're not late for, if our team's in the big game, the super bowl, the championship, like we don't miss tip off or kickoff, right? Like we're there an hour early waiting for it to happen. If our best friend is getting married, we're not late. If we're going to a funeral, it's so unkosher to show up late that we don't. So part of it in group is to recognize have I created for myself and the group like this is a high, high priority. And part of that is if it's a high priority, we're not going to miss it, we're not going to be late. So I think emphasizing that vision and then on the more light hearted side, I have had groups where we're missing, you know, we're not starting on time, we're missing phone calls. And we'll kind of create some fun group challenges. Like okay, our goal this week, everyone makes their phone calls, everyone shows up on time. And if we do like I'm buying ice cream after the group or we've done things like that, which it sounds almost junior highish, like we're a class pizza party. But it, I'll tell you, it works.

If there's pizza, they will come.

This guy's like, oh, we made, I think one week I'm taking, we made all of our phone calls, everyone's faster skills and just that little incentive was like okay. And it, it actually did create some carryover because we got into a rhythm and the rhythm was Good. So if you're really struggling, particularly as a group, like you've just got several people coming late and it's getting a little out of line, like make a goal, say, hey, next week, here's our goal, everyone on time, everyone's work done, and if so, I'm buying snacks, you know, whatever. So think creatively, have fun and I think it'll help your group a lot.

Yeah. So the reason why we've been talking about this is because we value creating the safest, the most effective and really the most life changing group experience that we can have. And it's important to identify the tendencies that can halt that, that can get in the way. And really we're looking for ways to ensure that everyone feels comfortable coming to group and can lean into their own healing each week. Because you really only get out of it what you put into it. And so just the experience you guys both have in group, appreciate, appreciate a lot. And Dan, thanks for joining us, man.

Thanks for having me.

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